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View Full Version : Long rant about +defense gear


Crash
12-09-2005, 06:16 PM
So I was thinking about the defense skill, right, and how armour with +defense compares to stuff with +dodge or +parry or whatever. I sometimes wonder if people load up on +def items just because they hear it’s the thing to do, but don’t actually think about what it actually does.

Ok, ok, so as I understand it, each point of defense raises your chance to block, dodge and parry by 0.04% and reduces the chance that you’ll get critted by 0.04%. Assuming that a block reduces incoming damage by 1/3 against normal (non-boss) monsters in normal instances, then each 10 points of defense reduces incoming damage by 1.33%. Repeating, of course. Against things that hit for crazy high damage blocks are practically worthless, so each 10 def points means 1.2% less damage taken. For the sake of argument I’m assuming that each 100 points of armour reduces damage taken by 0.8%, based on the difference in reduction values between 7000 and 7100 armour points.

Anyway, I’ve got my Eternal Guardian legplates with their 742 armour and +22 defense. I’ve also got my Warmaster Leggings with their 573 armour, +13 str, +15 sta and +2% dodge. Ignoring the str and sta, Eternal Guardian provides 8.86% mitigation, while Warmaster provides 6.58%. So the Eternal Guardian leggings are obviously better. But after the defense skill nerf, the +def they provide will be reduced to around 15, meaning 7.93% mitigation. In a situation where blocks are useless, this is reduced to 7.74%, so they still come out on top in terms of mitigation. But what about that +15 stamina?

Against normal monsters in normal instances, I don’t consider stamina very important. In a controlled fight your HP shouldn’t be dropping to a level where 15 stamina points are going to mean the difference between life and death. But stamina is obviously vital in tougher situations for two reasons; first, it gives healers longer to react when things get messy; secondly, it helps reduce heal overkill (a phrase I just pulled out of my arse), as you’ll be able to eat a larger number of heals before mana is wasted on trying to restore more HP than you’re currently lacking.

The question is whether +15 sta makes up for 1% less mitigation. It would take quite a long time to try to figure it out using dubious hypothetical situations. Maybe I’ll do it when I’m bored later. Now, one of the main arguments to having lots of +def skills is the reduction of critical hits taken. The +15 def of the nerfed Eternal Guardian leggings will reduce the chance to be critted by 0.6%, and it’s probably worth trying to compare that with the +15 sta from the Warmaster Leggings. Take a big red guy who usually hits for 600. Removing 15 def will result in 1 in every 170 (roughly) hits dealing an extra 600 damage. At the moment I would say that having 150 more hitpoints (which helps against all the 169 other hits) does make up for that extra 600 damage hit, but I’ll probably change my mind some time soon.

Another comparison would be the stupid looking Helm of Awareness (493 armour, +17 sta, +2% parry) vs the post-nerf Enchanted Thorium Helm (526 armour, +12 str, +25 sta, +9 def). Total mitigation for the Helm of Awareness is 5.944%, vs the Enchanted Thorium’s 5.288%, assuming that blocks aren’t doing squat. Is 8 more stamina worth 0.7% less mitigation? I would have to say no in this case.

As for some kind of conclusion, I expect that after the nerf we’ll see some players trying to balance +def gear with +sta & dodge/parry gear. Having +70 def will reduce a mob’s crit chance to 2.2% (assuming a base of 5%), which I dare say is manageable once you’ve switched out your less-good +def gear for stuff with craploads of stamina. I also expect many players to still aim for +140 def and be running around in MC with 4000 hitpoints. You go, girls.

If you’re bored, you could check my numbers to see if I’ve made and dumb errors.

End communication.

Flawless
12-09-2005, 06:30 PM
Stop spamming? :P
yeah good points made tho, most them on the warrior wow-eu forums they will flame you to MC and back if you'd make a mistake

Flagg
12-09-2005, 07:22 PM
Stop spamming? :P
yeah good points made tho, most them on the warrior wow-eu forums they will flame you to MC and back if you'd make a mistake

I would say post this on the EU warrior forums for sure, the flamers would stop reading half way through but the ones who do know about this stuff would check your numbers and make sensible, helpful comments to which I would also like to know the answers. You made a very good point where now it seems going for the +stam gear for that extra "breathing space" for your healers would be better then a shed load of +def gear.

However don't forget that the def nerf is only to reduce the crit immunity oversight (were by getting that magic number of 425 def would make the warrior immune to crits and crushing blows) so that same warrior with the same gear would now have a def of what 383? meaning that they now have like a 3% chance of being crit (it was long ago that I read the original post of this and am purely quoting from the top of my head) not a big deal really as long as the healers dont let the warriors health get too low I guess

Did you ever read the original post? The one that actually brought this "bug" to blizzard attention? (apologies for lack of link) a warrior basically ran several test on a lvl 61 elite mob with different amounts of +def gear (300, 425 and 500) it showed that at 425 the warrior was immune to crits but at 500 for some in-game damage calculating issue the warrior could get critted and crushing blowed! The reason that I mention this is because that warrior had gear that gave them 500 with the 33% def nerf will still give the warrior above that 425 def skill (that magic number again) my point then?

Yes +def gear will still be top list for MT/prot specced warriors as opposed to +stam, +dodge etc (although they will have to farm a little harder now) but for the rest of us I guess we will have to look at what you thought of Crash and go for +stam +dodge +parry

-Flagg-

PS if you do post it on the EU forums can you please post a link here as I'm interested to know the answers to this?

Crash
12-09-2005, 07:36 PM
Yeah, I did see that post where the guy had done tests with different defense ratings. I don't remember him taking more crits at max defense (you're sure it was 500?) but I do remember the number of crushing blows increasing. There was actually a blue reply to this which cleared up some stuff. Apparently, defense only affects the number of crushing blows you receive if your def skill is under your default max (300 at level 60), in which case you receive more crushing blows. Going over 300 is not supposed to reduce the number of crushing blows you receive. The Blizzard poster also said that the data showing the number of crushing blows increasing was due to the small sample size, and that the rate doesn't actually increase with more +def gear.

So it seems to be a case of "working as intended". Assuming 1 def = -0.04% chance to get critted, then +125 def = -5% chance to take a crit vs a level 60 mob (5% being the default crit rate of an equal level mob, I think). So if you're fighting a level 61+ mob you're still going to take a crit eventually.

Saxo
13-09-2005, 03:12 AM
The main point of +def is to make your damage pattern as reliable as possible. By redusing the chance of damage spikes from crushing blows and crits, you make life much easier for your healers. Having a predictiable damage in-take is was matters most versus the end game encounters while still upholding a nice buffer in form of total hitpoints. With this in mind having +def on items should be prefered to a certain extent over for example dodge and parry which kinda distort your damage pattern. Once you reach the "magic number" then its nice to pad in as much dodge/parry as your hp's allow, always gotta be mindful that once in awhile there will be streaks of total damage mitigation. High hp's helps a great deal when this occurs acting like a buffer allowing your healers to catch up once you start taking damage again. It's all about finding the right balance between the different stats =)

About the warmaster vs eternal guardian legs, i'd go for the warmaster - can get the +def needed on other slots. Having a piece of equipment without stamina just seems wrong to me hehe

Crash
13-09-2005, 03:38 PM
I understand the importance of the defense skill reducing big damage streaks, but this only happens due to the crit chance reduction. It's doesn't affect crushing blows, which was shown in that test and confirmed by Blizzard. Aside from the crit reduction, +def functions in exactly the same way as +dodge/block/parry gear.

After the patch, if you try to wear enough +def gear to completely eliminate crits then you're going to hurt your HP and maybe your armour. Even going 10 points below this level of defense will result in a crit happening eventually. What I think will be more important will be to gain enough +defense so that double crits are extremely rare. With +80 def, the chance to take a crit from a level 60 mob will be 1.8%, so the chances of a double crit are 0.03%. I could live with that.

So basically what I'm saying is with 1.7 it won't be feasible to wear gear that reduces a mob's crit chance to 0%. I think it would be better to get enough +def to make double crits extremely rare, then - if possible - fill up any remaining slots with high stamina & +dodge/parry gear.