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View Full Version : Paladins and 2h weapons in instances


Flagg
24-08-2005, 10:41 AM
I've often thought why is it that no one moans at a pally when they run a whole instance using a 2h weapon but the second a warrior even thinks of weilding his 2h gets "OMG learn to play your class n00b!" Even if I'm not MT (not that I ever do go 2h in an instance) its not as pallys are brought for DPS (no offence) I aways thought their role was support/secondry tanks?

I was gonna post this in the paladin forum but I don't want to look like a troll

Can any one comment on this? Just curious

PS this is referring to places like UBRS, Strat etc not MC/BWL as I have no experiance in there so cant comment either way

-Flagg-

Decebalus
24-08-2005, 10:55 AM
basicly you need the shield for the extra armour and maybe stats... which aren't so important if you're not tanking... paladins aren't tanking so they can wear whatever they like... BUT paladins should heal, bless, judge, cleanse...

those who still think that all warriors should go 1h + shield in any circumstance, are plain wrong...

even in Molten Core if i'm not tanking i will use my 2h... just for that bit of extra damage...

Jimothy
24-08-2005, 11:20 AM
Thank the Lord, someone else who agrees with me!!!!!

As can be seen I have a lvl 60 loladin (in light of the 1.7 changes :) ), I also have a 59 cookie cutter/meatshield/whatever. I have used sword and board since day 1 with the Warrior and since Sunken Temple with the Paladin.

I would not dream of entering an instance with my 2 hander out, not even if I was the spare "if every other plate wearer suddenly disconnects" guy. I am, however, guilded with a guy who may not even posses a sword and shield and considers it a personal affront to his Paladin-ness if he doesn't outdamage everyone (inc. Rogues) with his IBS. We have some fundamental differences in our interpretation of the Paladin class role.

He sees it as there to do damage and uses the Damage Done meters as proof of his position. I see if the opposite way, we are there to assist the warrior in taking the damage and preventing squishies getting squished; Therefore, I like to see the damage taken meter. The only way to do that is Seal of Fury and a Sword and Board (increases threat while reducing actual damage taken)

Took the warrior on a Tribute run at lvl 58 with a guild priest (Torgan, best priest in the game imho, but i'm biased as I like his healing style) and a couple of other pick ups, one of which was a 60 Paladin. He had his Epic 2 hander, a very nice weapon and insisted on using it throughout. Now, most of the time I was fine, but when his Seal of Command procced and critted all aggro switched to him. Not normally a problem, but makes life harder for poor old me, trying to regain it from him as it procs again. He wasn't too hot when it came to emergency healing or Divine Interventions when needed.

The one thing I have found playing both classes is that the Paladin who is out to deal damage with his 2 hander is often less likely to be watching around him. I find that the OT paladin will be watching and if the priest is took out, disconnects or whatever, steps back and throws off the heals to keep the party alive, or, as I seem to enjoy doing, Killing himself with a DI to keep the group going down badly after a bad pull or ambush (Scarlet Strat being my usual places for suicides) :D

The best arguement for a Paladin having a 1 hander and a Shield is a Paladin Epc Mount run. This is done by 4 paladins and a priest and by God, is it slow going through Scholo. We had 3 Paladins using 1h+S and one using a 2 hander. After this run, the 2 hander guy is now an avowed convert and has procured himself a good one hander.

I moan at Paladins myself when playing mine who don't use a 1 hander and Shield but am banging my head against a brick wall. Most have develpoed a solo playing style based enirely around the Seal of Command proc (and who can blame them, my solo style is the same). Thing is, they can't adjust it to the instance style needed. However, fell free to tell them "LOL, learn your class, N00b", coz you ain't wrong.

As for MC runs, meh, may as well get Devout for all the actual fighting I do :roll:

Temmink
24-08-2005, 11:41 AM
basicly you need the shield for the extra armour and maybe stats... which aren't so important if you're not tanking... paladins aren't tanking so they can wear whatever they like... BUT paladins should heal, bless, judge, cleanse...

those who still think that all warriors should go 1h + shield in any circumstance, are plain wrong...

That's true. At higher armour ratings, a shield adds only like 8-10% damage reduction, which is basicly not a deal breaker against normal instance mobs. Unless you're tanking 3 or 4 mobs at once, you really don't need one. Stuff like the Draconian Deflector is different, as it adds +defence as well, but since I don't have it, I often switch to tanking with my reaper. Works great if you party with rogues who go completely overboard with damage or critting warlocks. You generate way more rage, so you can spam skills a lot more and a lot faster and the damage itself creates more aggro too.
I tanked Alexi Barov with my reaper in a 4 man party yesterday (we lost a warlock who had to go to sleep, so I figured we needed some extra damage to cover for it. Also with no mage or druid around, his curse is a pain so he needed to go down fast); no one died, no mana problems and he and his 2 bodyguards went down in a minute or so. I have to add that the group was fabulous though, so maybe it doesn't work that great in pick-ups.

Flagg
24-08-2005, 12:10 PM
Jimothy thank you, you answered my question perfectly.

basicly you need the shield for the extra armour and maybe stats... which aren't so important if you're not tanking... paladins aren't tanking so they can wear whatever they like... BUT paladins should heal, bless, judge, cleanse...

those who still think that all warriors should go 1h + shield in any circumstance, are plain wrong...

That's true. At higher armour ratings, a shield adds only like 8-10% damage reduction, which is basicly not a deal breaker against normal instance mobs. Unless you're tanking 3 or 4 mobs at once, you really don't need one. Stuff like the Draconian Deflector is different, as it adds +defence as well, but since I don't have it, I often switch to tanking with my reaper. Works great if you party with rogues who go completely overboard with damage or critting warlocks. You generate way more rage, so you can spam skills a lot more and a lot faster and the damage itself creates more aggro too.
I tanked Alexi Barov with my reaper in a 4 man party yesterday (we lost a warlock who had to go to sleep, so I figured we needed some extra damage to cover for it. Also with no mage or druid around, his curse is a pain so he needed to go down fast); no one died, no mana problems and he and his 2 bodyguards went down in a minute or so. I have to add that the group was fabulous though, so maybe it doesn't work that great in pick-ups.

The warrior community seems to be split on the whole 1h + shield vs 2h while in instances. I think both you and Decebalus are correct in your statements "depends on the circumstances" (thats what I've interrupted you as saying, correct me if I am wrong?) but good luck explaining that to a PUG

-Flagg-

Crash
24-08-2005, 01:07 PM
Bear in mind when you talk about armour that it's not as simple as looking at the before and after numbers for damage reduction. In my pvp gear, I have 45% reduction. By equipping my shield and 1 hander, I move to 55% reduction. So, if a level 60 mob has an attack with a base damage of 100, in the first case it will hit me for 55 and in the second case for 45. That's 18% less damage taken just from the armour, plus of course there's passive blocking, access to Shield Block and more chances to use revenge.

When I think about tanking gear I aim to play so that the healers have the maximum amount of mana when we finish a fight. The only time I could think of this happening by using a 2-hander instead of 1H+shield is if you don't have any kind of DPS class with you, and I can't remember the last time I went into an instance with a group like that. Actually, I can't remember the last time I went into an instance...

Use a shield. You know it makes sense. And it's good to know that you Alliance freaks experience the same problems with paladins as we do with shamans.

JeFF
24-08-2005, 02:48 PM
Well when i was still doing the 5-15 man instances i used a 2h all the time since i had plenty of mana even with it to heal and didn't really bother getting a 1h + shield :P.

In molten core at the beginning i used the Iceblade Hacker + Rattlecage Buckler, but after i got Finkle's Lava Dredger and a +22 int enchant on it ive been using it in MC.

IMO if the 2-hander the pally has has good stats for healing and buffing and he doesnt steal aggro from the warrior in the group with it then theres nothing against the pally using it. But if the pally thinks that he's sole purpose is to DPS in the instance then he should reroll a rogue.

Flagg
24-08-2005, 02:59 PM
The only time I could think of this happening by using a 2-hander instead of 1H+shield is if you don't have any kind of DPS class with you, and I can't remember the last time I went into an instance with a group like that.

Grouped with 3 pallys and a priest before, no wipes no close calls but not the quickest run, took a while to kill the mobs

....a bit off topic but Crash what gear do you have? I've worked the spaulders of Valor out for myself and your reaper (ouch) you fly about pretty quick so I can't get a good look and hit a hellva hard!

Your one damn tough warrior /salute

-Flagg-

Ruargh
24-08-2005, 03:54 PM
if there is just the slightest chance of me having to take hits (meaning im the only thing around that can take a hit besides the mt) i use 1h + shield. otherwise i always use a 2h.
But that might just show the difference between shamans and paladins :)

on the other hand shamans arent good at keeping agro when it comes to more then 1 target anyway :)

Crash
24-08-2005, 04:33 PM
My PvP gear (other than reaper & spaulders):
Helm of Valor (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=16731)
Emberfury Talisman (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=12929)
Cape of the Black Baron (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=13340)
Ornate Adamantium Breastplate (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=15413)
Vigorsteel Vambraces (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=13951)
Reiver Claws (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=13162)
Omokk's Girth Restrainer (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=13959)
Eldritch Reinforced Legplates (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18380)
Blood Guard's Plate Boots (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=16509)
Painweaver Band (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=13098)
Band of the Ogre King (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18522)
Insignia of the Horde (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18834)
Blackhand's Breadth (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=13965)

Fascinating, huh?

Flagg
24-08-2005, 05:31 PM
Fascinating, huh?

......yes, thanks bud



Use a shield. You know it makes sense. And it's good to know that you Alliance freaks experience the same problems with paladins as we do with shamans.

Problems with shamans? Please elaborate, what roll do shamans play in an instance?

I'm curious now

ps - What kind of crit % do you have with all that gear?

-Flagg-

MortZ
31-08-2005, 04:00 AM
Fascinating, huh?

......yes, thanks bud



Use a shield. You know it makes sense. And it's good to know that you Alliance freaks experience the same problems with paladins as we do with shamans.

Problems with shamans? Please elaborate, what roll do shamans play in an instance?

I'm curious now

ps - What kind of crit % do you have with all that gear?

-Flagg-

Role for a shaman in instance.... hmm well all depends. Can off tank in the lower-lvl instances (not MC and those), heal\buff-bot (not Main healer though)

But if we have MT and MH and our DPS`er, a shaman can just sit back buff totems, heal where needed, and if the squishys need hlp, use a 2h with Rockbiter and ES the mobs off em, when u have aggro change back to 1h+shield, till MT can take the aggro back (remember not to put Rockbiter on the 1h)