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Turiel
14-10-2010, 05:00 AM
So...

How do you guys want raid progress to be done in Cataclysm?

Was thinking remove the achievements. They meant something in Ulduar/TOC but not so much in ICC and seems not in Cata.

Keep 10+25 seperate.

Would be nice to automatically populate kill times etc from WoWProgress but I don't think I have the time to do it. Maybe someone else wants to write a little script for it.

Also I think the way of presenting the progress charts is cool (icons for every boss) but ends up looking like a mess. Maybe go back to the simpler format of TBC? The problem is that bosses can be optional and can also be killed in a different order so 4/10 for one guild could mean something completely different for another guild.

Belaial
14-10-2010, 07:45 AM
If possible to keep the 10 man ranks free from 25 man guilds killing 10 man bosses, that would be awesome :)

Otherwise we will just see the same guilds in both ranks, like it has been now i WotlK.

or have some "Strict" 10 man rank list.

Metakerk
14-10-2010, 08:15 AM
If possible to keep the 10 man ranks free from 25 man guilds killing 10 man bosses, that would be awesome :)

Nothing like that in Cataclysm, as you might have read 10 and 25 man share the same raid lockout and drop exactly the same loot, though in different quantities.
Blizzard's idea is that 10 and 25 man will be of the same difficulty, the same realm first can be achieved on 10 and 25 man and I think this should be reflected in the list on SSE (aka put them together).

Belaial
14-10-2010, 08:48 AM
Nothing like that in Cataclysm, as you might have read 10 and 25 man share the same raid lockout and drop exactly the same loot, though in different quantities.
Blizzard's idea is that 10 and 25 man will be of the same difficulty, the same realm first can be achieved on 10 and 25 man and I think this should be reflected in the list on SSE (aka put them together).

Yeah read it all, was just thinking if the ranking would look the same as it does now, or close to it.

But I guess there will still be a 10 man and 25 man boss kill ranking (I know they share the same lockout).

If there is only one list, where a kill of 10 or 25 man is the same (just a kill I guess, no difference in worth, like 10 man = 1 point, 25 man = 2 points) then there is no use for my first post no.

No clue if I make my self understandable here ^^

Turiel
14-10-2010, 09:15 AM
I don't plan to separate to 10man strict because there's very few guilds on SSE that do this (1, 2?)

With Cata we will see the progression guilds likely only do 25man on mains - there won't be the "practice run" of 10man before doing 25 like there is at the moment. Of course those guilds can then run alt 10mans or indeed have a separate 25+10 man teams, in which case the progression list might look similar - but thats fair enough I think.

Greta
14-10-2010, 09:42 AM
From my point of view 25 man raiding is pretty much dead or will be a bit into Cataclysm,but that remains to be seen ofc.

Theres no way to separate 10 and 25 man kills from the data you can mine from armory so most sites/people wont make that distinction so imo we should just merge them into one.

Gwynin
14-10-2010, 10:06 AM
I still remain unconvinced that blizz can manage to make the 2 raid forms equal, and if that turns out to be the fact I vote for keeping the progress seperate..

Belaial
14-10-2010, 10:35 AM
I don't plan to separate to 10man strict because there's very few guilds on SSE that do this (1, 2?)

Ok

There seem to be at least around 10 "serious" 10 man guilds on Shadowsong if you look at Guildox "Casual 10 man" ranks, strict is to "Strict" to look at tho and say how many there are, And I bet there might be even more "pure" 10 man guilds created now for Cata since the new lootrules / lockout and so on.

http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=2&s=2&r=Shadowsong-EU&w=

Just took this up since it would be fun to see 10 man guilds in their own list, a list where the big names of 25 man guilds would not be.

I know the loot and lockout will be the same and so on, but still.

Tarasín
14-10-2010, 11:00 AM
But still what?
Yes there will be more and more 10man raiding guilds on Shadowsong in Cataclysm. Just look at the guild recruitment thread on these forums.

With the changes to 10 and 25 all raiding guilds are equally ranked whether they be 10 or 25 man. It'll be reflected on every other ranking site in a couple of months.

Now. If it'll work they way blizzard intends to do. As in 10 = 25 in difficulty I very much doubt so.

Belaial
14-10-2010, 11:02 AM
Now. If it'll work they way blizzard intends to do. As in 10 = 25 in difficulty I very much doubt so.

I guess the "But still" I said, was meant to look more like the quote above.

I have the same feeling that 25 man will still be somewhat harder to kill.

And therefore there can still be different ranks for 10 / 25.

Greta
14-10-2010, 11:16 AM
I dont see the point of a strict 10 man ranking.

I'm personally going 10 man in Cataclysm and will most likely never set foot in a 25 man raid again. I'm still part of MCO who is planning to have a 25 man running as well. Whats the difference between "my" 10 man team and a 10 man team from a guild that only does 10 man raids.

Belaial
14-10-2010, 11:58 AM
There is no point in that way that the gear will be the same for both 10 / 25.

If tho 25 man bosses turns out to be harder to kill than 10 man bosses, then there could be a meaning of a separate rank, in my world at least, but I might be living alone here, we all see it different I guess.

Leeh
19-10-2010, 01:57 AM
25 does not mean harder than 10man. Remember Sarth10+3drakes? I do think it would seem unlikely the difficulties would be the same, as raiding with 25 people requires more coordination than 10. On the other hand, 10 would probably require more personal effort from players. So absolute balance seems very unlikely. But I do believe that it is easier to get 10 skilled players, rather than 25 skilled players.

So ehmm. Merge the raidprogress at first, and just trust Blizzard I guess...

Gwynin
19-10-2010, 09:06 AM
I have no faith whatsoever in Blizzards ability to make both formats equal besides the dropped loot, as Leeh allready mentioned 25man will always take more coordination and therefore be harder to some degree (some ppl just never will learn NOT to stand in fire and such)..

I wouldnt be surprised that Blizz is calculating on this, and going to end up with making 25man easier than 10man :D

Turiel
19-10-2010, 09:40 AM
Well.. 25man is more difficult than 10man, if you have players all of the same ability.

However consider this - if 10% of your raid sucks, how does that relate to the 10 and 25 man versions?

If 1 person in a 10 man raid sucks, you'll fail.

If 2.5 people (or even round it up to 3) in a 25man raid sucks, you still have a good chance of getting it.

Schugar
22-10-2010, 07:41 PM
Just wanted to say that I agree with Belaial whatever he says :P

Sinistera
22-10-2010, 08:53 PM
25 does not mean harder than 10man. Remember Sarth10+3drakes? I do think it would seem unlikely the difficulties would be the same, as raiding with 25 people requires more coordination than 10. On the other hand, 10 would probably require more personal effort from players. So absolute balance seems very unlikely. But I do believe that it is easier to get 10 skilled players, rather than 25 skilled players.

So ehmm. Merge the raidprogress at first, and just trust Blizzard I guess...

10 mans will always be easier, Blizzard has to account for that you won't have most/all class and spec combinations in the raid while that is much more likely in a 25 man
so they have to balance 25 mans around that fact that you got every race / class / spec / buff / debuff combination but for 10 mans, only balance it around the lowest common denominator
and also what has been seen time and time again, spacing out is much more of an issue in 25 mans than in 10 mans because the room you are fighting in isn't growing any larger just because you change your raid size

Vegelus
22-10-2010, 09:05 PM
10 mans will always be easier, Blizzard has to account for that you won't have most/all class and spec combinations in the raid while that is much more likely in a 25 man so they have to balance 25 mans around that fact that you got every race / class / spec / buff / debuff combination but for 10 mans, only balance it around the lowest common denominator
Really? They did a lot to homogenize functions and buffs that classes/specs provide even more. Interrupts to paladins, changes to warriors' shouts and tclap, imp, etc.. Not to mention big change to the hunters' pets, now bringing most(if not all) important buffs and debuffs whenever those are needed.

and also what has been seen time and time again, spacing out is much more of an issue in 25 mans than in 10 mans because the room you are fighting in isn't growing any larger just because you change your raid size And you get more M&Sers of any kind in 25man, which they have to remember about too, making normal modes doable by 15-18 okish people with 7-10 drooling lolkids in raid being carried. I suppose that with the equeal/same gear 10mans will be harder than now, compared to the 25man. We will see how it works I suppose.

Leafroy
05-11-2010, 01:32 PM
Quote from Blizz forums..(in response to the blue post)

When we asked them to make raiding more challenging in Cataclysm we didnt mean ''to understand''..

The pointlessness of this game grows more each expansion , the novelty effect dies a little more. Im not sure where they can take us that is not a mixed up, rehashed, new paint job.. version of something done before..

I agree with furiat in most parts, but there is no way they will make it equal. The human factors of failure are increased the more humans/players you add to the mix. Thus 25 man is inevitably harder untill geared(at which point the 17 can carry the 8).

Anyhow i am moving from the main point a little..

Turiel always put 25 and 10 seperate as 25 is and always will be ''more'' of an achievement ( in the true sense of the english word, not this stupid lable wow made it) than 10 mans is.. The arguement of you can carry more people in 25 mans only applies once geared in most instancies. Anyways enjoy the game everyone, those who still find it enjoyable.

:) /wave

thurlog
16-12-2010, 08:39 AM
without actually being part of a kill or someone posting/saying it somewhere there is no way to track the difference between a 10 or 25 kill.
The armory just doesn't give information about that (see wowprogress, guildox).

;(

zoomkin
16-12-2010, 08:52 AM
The armory just doesn't give information about that (see wowprogress, guildo.

;(

The armory was changed by Blizzard three days into Cata to not differentiate between 10 and 25, they can change it back if they wish ( and they should ). Currently you can tell the difference between 10 and 25 man kills on armory by the amount of loot that it shows people receiving. I do hope they do eventually change it back, because it doesn't take a genius to look at the difference between the current 10 and 25 fights to know that 10 is easier.

Turiel
16-12-2010, 09:33 AM
What, you mean SSE progress is now better than wowprogress cause it differentiates ?! :)

Automatic updates isnt always good!

thurlog
20-12-2010, 04:02 PM
follow up

blizzard prolly changed something because both guildox and wow-progress suddenly show 10 and 25 (and mixed).

Tarasín
20-12-2010, 07:00 PM
Blizzard didn't change anything. The 2 sites mentioned did a smart thing and checks the timestamp on the tick off in the achivement each raid boss first kill, for how many members got it. 16+ members getting a kill = 25man guild. 8+ getting a kill = 10man very simple.

Turiel
04-01-2011, 09:19 PM
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/01/03/a-survey-of-gear-levels-in-current-10-and-25-man-cataclysm-raid/

So.. 10man is in fact 'harder' by virtue of it requiring an average better geared player than 25man.

So this is what I'm talking about in relation to 10man being more difficult relative to 25man, but 25man having the inherent difficulty of logistics.

So - this can balance out the two and in fact make 10 and 25 equal.

thurlog
04-01-2011, 11:17 PM
interesting theory, let me throw in against it (the article i mean):
10 man are easier to run heroics.. logistically.. you have 2 tanks and about 4 healers by default, so you're set for 2x 5 groups...
25 has 2 or 3 tanks and a bunch of healers (6/7?), way harder to make 5 heroic groups unless you gear up offspecs

so it's logic that 10man kills have higher ilevel gear, they've run more heroics :p

Tarasín
05-01-2011, 01:29 AM
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/01/03/a-survey-of-gear-levels-in-current-10-and-25-man-cataclysm-raid/

So.. 10man is in fact 'harder' by virtue of it requiring an average better geared player than 25man.

So this is what I'm talking about in relation to 10man being more difficult relative to 25man, but 25man having the inherent difficulty of logistics.

So - this can balance out the two and in fact make 10 and 25 equal.

Interesting article though I do not at any point see a 'this ilvl is needed to kill stuff in 10man vs 25'. I see a list of kills done on heroic and normal and the item level in the 10 and 25man guilds that did it. I have a feeling that It might be like Thurlog mentions. If you are a strict 10man guild you will have less to no competition about loot drops in 5man heroics. Meaning youll get the ilvl gear faster than a 25man guild with possible around 35 members. People will desire same loot ofcourse and if you lose a roll your fellow raider gets the item but the avg item level of the raid remains whilest in a 10man raid group it would go up.

That being said a 25man guild of 35 people can still do heroics as a guild. Plenty of people (dps warriors etc) capeable of tanking and voila the grind is on.

If you want to break down difficulty of encounters you can go through em seperatly.

In my own personal opinion.
Halfus is easier on 25man. Hi extra tanks
Nefarian, Al'akir, Conclave and Ascendent Council is easier on 10man.
Rest remains around the same difficulty.
Regarding 1-tank encounters. Since I have yet to see 10man Atramedes/Valiona&Theralion on normal I wont comment on it. But having 6dps 1 tank 3 healers in 10man is a bigger % dps gain than 1 tank 7 healers 17dps gain from switching a tank with a dps. No idea really though.

Fact though. Every single encounter is about execution, not gear. Especially entry level normal modes. You can argue 105k zaps on Nefarian 25man will be a gear check aswell. More than 75% of the wipes you have is because of fuckups and not mitigation/healers going oom etc.

Tier 1 raiding in Cataclysm is a test drive. Blizzard is trying to figure out how to balance 10 and 25man, and if its possible to balance it correctly. In my opinion you can't balance every single fight. It is simply impossible. There will always be an edge in some fight for some raid sizes.

Turiel
05-01-2011, 01:38 AM
You're right, I don't think it can be perfectly balanced but I do think the 10 and 25 overall are now a lot closer to each other than in WotLK.

Val+The is pretty easy with 1 tank. We've been doing 2 while learning but its not necessary at all.

Tarasín
05-01-2011, 02:00 AM
I certainly do agree that the difference between 25 and 10 compared to Wotlk was diminished alot to almost being removed. Mainly due to not being able to outgear the instance.

I still hope though in the future from blizzard for a seperate 10 and 25 Realm First. But I, as many others know it wont happen till hell freezes over -_-.

Aggression
05-01-2011, 05:11 PM
http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/01/03/a-survey-of-gear-levels-in-current-10-and-25-man-cataclysm-raid/

So.. 10man is in fact 'harder' by virtue of it requiring an average better geared player than 25man.

So this is what I'm talking about in relation to 10man being more difficult relative to 25man, but 25man having the inherent difficulty of logistics.

So - this can balance out the two and in fact make 10 and 25 equal.

Not been raiding, yet as earlier mentioned. But cant ignore the fact that it is easier to get a core of 10 players ready for raid than for a 25-man. But as it seems to be same stats with the 25-man heroic, seems like 10-man really is tiny bit harder.

But there are more ppl in 25-mans. 1 dps dead in 25-man do not mean as much as 1 dps in 10-man. fights are probably rather equal now already, it's just the personal errors that hurt alot more in 10-man than 25-man.

Turiel
05-01-2011, 06:08 PM
But cant ignore the fact that it is easier to get a core of 10 players ready for raid than for a 25-man.

Thats exactly my point - 25 man has the inherent difficulty of being harder to organise 25 people.

But if the 10man is harder in difficulty or gear requirement, then this balances out the difficulty of 25mans making them equal but in different ways.

Aggression
05-01-2011, 06:55 PM
Thats exactly my point - 25 man has the inherent difficulty of being harder to organise 25 people.

But if the 10man is harder in difficulty or gear requirement, then this balances out the difficulty of 25mans making them equal but in different ways.

It for sure do not look right if you check the stats. Anyone, even without statistic knowledge know, with these stats, that 10-mans are "harder".

If WoW had 5 classes (and no diffrent specc's), then it would be no problem at all to equally balance 10 and 25-man, but 10 classes and more or less 30 diffrent specc's, alot harder. Like it was with OS10 3 drakes, deffinately alot harder than OS25 3.

10 and 25-man will never be equal, as Blizz says. Or their term of "equal" have a diffrence of 3% or so.

Wil be intresting to see blue posts about the 10/25-man balancing. So far it's not to much balance, and it feels like the top guilds are prefering to count a 25-man "world first" more than a 10-man, even tho it seems to be harder in 10-man.

Any 10-man will be harder if they always take the 25-man as reference, and just simply devide (I hope that is not the case they balance, lol).

Sinistera
08-01-2011, 10:06 AM
the only case where 25 m can be considered "easier" is because you can bring a much wider array of classes and specs to any given raid and while Blizzard has consolidated many buffs and debuffs and spread several formerly unique stuff like Bloodlust or Refreshment amongst several classes, if one of those dies in a 10m the raid will be hit harder by a loss of those buffs/debuffs than in a 25m. Likewise, as you are using the same room size, spreading and moving becomes alot more difficult in 25m.
However the reason why so many guilds prefer 10m over 25m comes down to orginization. that's it. not because 10mans are harder or 25mans. it's because it is much easier to get 10 dedicated people going day after day then to organize 25man people, let alone find and recruit 25 people that perform at nearly the same level.

Turiel
08-01-2011, 11:47 AM
the only case where 25 m can be considered "easier" is because ....

Did you not read what I wrote, or the article I linked?

25man is easier than 10man in terms of gear/skill required, proven by statistics. Where its harder is in the organisation. Therefore, they are close to equal.

Sinistera
09-01-2011, 11:12 PM
Did you not read what I wrote, or the article I linked?

25man is easier than 10man in terms of gear/skill required, proven by statistics. Where its harder is in the organisation. Therefore, they are close to equal.

I hope I don't need to explain to you the reason why guilds who previously did 10mans during the holidays suddenly started doing 25mans
that stastic doesn't provide any proof to your claim of "skill" needed (that you so eloquently put in the same league as gear) at all, when it comes down to this: 25s offer greater flexibility and very slightly more loot, while 10s offer a drastically reduced administrative burden
thats it

Llort
09-01-2011, 11:34 PM
IMHO you all should get laid and think about this whole discussion again. And then coming to realize that, "it is just a game"

/me puts oil on the fire: they are equal (overal) in difficulty

Kkthx
10-01-2011, 01:34 AM
I believe that comparing them in general is wrong, each fight is different. Also each guild is different, with its own strong and weak points that play an important role when raiding. From the current fights, in our point of view, like Tarasin said, Conclave, Al'Akir and Council seemed easier on 10man (I believe Nefarian isn't, but i could be wrong). We found Magmaw, Halfus, Valiona, Chimaeron, Atramedes and Cho'Gal to be easier on 25man.

But, as i said before, it depends on your strengths and weaknesses as a guild and thinks that can't really be measured.

zoomkin
10-01-2011, 08:08 AM
Of course you will find 25 man easy after killing them on 10man for 3 weeks, not that really knowing the fights does anything on normal mode, since you can just mindlessly kill things :D

inacup
10-01-2011, 08:19 AM
Look at Paragon and their constant abuse of mechanics.


Yeah... That's 11 druids. Class stacked and abused the shit out of some mechanics to beat an encounter. Nothing new. No one just has gone to these lengths to do it before.


This wouldn't be doable in 10 man. I'm looking forward to see a real kill on 10 man, or possibly a 25 man kill with a "sensible" setup.

zoomkin
10-01-2011, 08:26 AM
You could do it in 10 man, you would just need 5 druids instead of 11.

inacup
10-01-2011, 08:31 AM
Not really, it's the same amount on adds in both 10 and 25 man afaik.

zoomkin
10-01-2011, 08:41 AM
I was under the impression you get 5 adds in 10man, whereas 25 man gets 12. But I've been away for a month so i might have missed something x_x

Leeh
16-01-2011, 09:05 AM
I am just happy Blizzard gave us proper content rather than "naxx-like" entry level. And also, gear isnt important on most of the fights. Tiny dps/healer-mana checks here and there, but nothing too wild.

I do believe that 10man encounters can be "overtuned" more easily than their 25man equivalent though, due to the limited raidcomposition (e.g. We havent had a mage or bloodlust in like.. ever? And raiding without a druid also can happen).
Other examples as kiting, interrupting duty which bring down raiddps have a larger impact on 10m.

Vegelus
16-01-2011, 07:22 PM
due to the limited raidcomposition (e.g. We havent had a mage or bloodlust in like.. ever? And raiding without a druid also can happen).
Bring more hunters, simple.

Hilara
17-01-2011, 02:51 AM
I am just happy Blizzard gave us proper content rather than "naxx-like" entry level. And also, gear isnt important on most of the fights. Tiny dps/healer-mana checks here and there, but nothing too wild.

I do believe that 10man encounters can be "overtuned" more easily than their 25man equivalent though, due to the limited raidcomposition (e.g. We havent had a mage or bloodlust in like.. ever? And raiding without a druid also can happen).
Other examples as kiting, interrupting duty which bring down raiddps have a larger impact on 10m.

Ascendant Council and Al'Akir are way overtuned on 25 for example >.>

Hilara
19-01-2011, 05:09 PM
About the nefarian feral stacking:

Blizzard hotfixed it, it seems was an unbalanced encounter and Rip ticks were out of scale.


We reported the bug and it was fixed. We never tried to use it, we just proved it existed. Good job in taking that picture out of context to flame us.

Manni


they proved the bug by actually killing the boss. lol