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Coven
25-06-2010, 09:37 AM
Epic items in Cataclysm
We're actually working on restoring the epic feeling to epic items in Cataclysm. Epic loot should be epic, and something to be very proud of. Our plan is to try and get the Heroic -> Blue Gear and Raid -> Purple Gear balance back.

Personally, I think going back to blue gear in early raid bosses is a good thing, maybe even an awesome thing. Even having epic gear only available in raids again. *shock* *horror*

I remember the day when Blues were actually something to grind bosses for and thought of as "raid gear." When certain crafted blues (Arcanite Reaper) were thought of as imba. They were worth having and not some 2-day precursor to a few dungeon grinds and quick badge replacements.

I loved the priest's epic quest chain for the Anathema/Benediction staff. It was a symbol, it stood for something. It meant something to me. I'd made it, wherever "it" was :P I still have it, it still rawx. All I think now is, 8 more random PuG HC's and I can get a decent chest.

The proliferation of "epic" gear since TBC has massivley diminished the sense of "z0mG! EpiXx!" I remember the smile on my face when I got my first set of epic shoulders after a few weeks (or months?) of grinding MC with Erb. It felt like all the hard work and time invested had some meaning now, almost like a medal of honour for service to Thrall :) I swear my d*ck was that little bit longer too! ;)

Even legendary gear will never equal the exhiliration of that first Ragnaros kill, when half the raid were dead, only 1 tank and 2 healers low on mana still standing and everyone holding their breath, willing that last 3% to disappear only to scream down Vent and in raid chat when we saw that mace spin in the air! Memories... :')

But, epic gear does indeed need to be epic. Blues are awesome. Greens should be acceptable and not the new greys.

Anyone else feel like me or are any of you going to miss your epics in Cata? :)

Bunneh
25-06-2010, 10:16 AM
Do kinda miss the old days of going through Scholo/Strat for those blues which would let me raid! I was lucky to a degree, I got invited to a few Satre/Pure raids back in 2005 as a guest and got myself a few nice bits and bobs. Standing in IF looking at the hardcore with tier awesome gear, thinking if only I could get that purple stuff - then one day I did, YAY!

Feihcretsam
25-06-2010, 10:58 AM
Never did those pre-TBC days so just give me epics, blues are super crap

Turiel
25-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Good but I think epics are bound to devalue very shortly when badge gear replaces heroic gear.

They want to bring back the "blue/purple" feel but they also will never go back to the system where you had to progress through every raid tier to gear up. So as soon as the 2nd tier of raiding comes out, there will be welfare epics to allow people to gear for that without doing tier1.

Vegelus
25-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Personally, I think going back to blue gear in early raid bosses is a good thing, maybe even an awesome thing. Even having epic gear only available in raids again. *shock* *horror*

You mean added later 20mans? I wouldn't count them as "early raid bosses".

And I think it won't be much different than wotlk in Cata. Beginning of Wotlk had that "blue" period too, it vanished with 4 tiers of raid instances and gear from previous three being easily purchasable from emblem vendors. And that won't change, because they've stated already that lower level currency won't be capped, so you'll be able to farm it just like triumphs nowadays.

Coven
25-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Never did those pre-TBC days so just give me epics, blues are super crap

I think that's the perception they're trying to counter. There's nothing epic about epics anymore and "rare" blues are as common as flies on sh*t.

And it is only perception, item colour is irrelevant, item level is the only thing which counts and that's what is used to help balance raid and instance encounters.

Coven
25-06-2010, 11:11 AM
You mean added later 20mans? I wouldn't count them as "early raid bosses".

And I think it won't be much different than wotlk in Cata. Beginning of Wotlk had that "blue" period too, it vanished with 4 tiers of raid instances and gear from previous three being purchasable from emblem vendors.

No, I mean when a full set of blue gear was considered acceptable for entering 40-man raids. You geared up for raids in max level instances. Then, as you learned raid encounters and began to progress, blues slowly got replaced with epics. By the time you were on the final boss of that raid, the majority if not all of your gear was epic, so you had the health, dps and mana to down the boss.

But, I agree with Turiel to a large degree. But, so long as gearing up in badge gear takes a similar amount of time/effort to how long gearing in blues used to take, I'd be content. Plus, afaic badge gear should only allow you the ability to gear for the first few bosses of the existing "end game" - and why not make that badge gear blue? Gearing up during raiding for the final encounter is how it should work.

I know that a raid set from one tier should gear you for the next and will inevitably be epic and I'm not sure what they could do to counter that unless a new "tier starter" badge set accompanied every new raid instance...

Vegelus
25-06-2010, 11:17 AM
And it is only perception, item colour is irrelevant, item level is the only thing which counts and that's what is used to help balance raid and instance encounters.
Not exacly. Same ilvl epics have more itemisation points than rares. Just look at gear from "old" wotlk heroics, ilvl200 blues and epics.

No, I mean when a full set of blue gear was considered acceptable for entering 40-man raids. You geared up for raids in max level instances. Then, as you learned raid encounters and began to progress, blues slowly got replaced with epics.
And was it that much different in 3.0? Sure, people had more epics avaible from rep, crafts and emblems, but it was acceptable to go to Naxx25 in blues.
By the time you were on the final boss of that raid, the majority if not all of your gear was epic, so you had the health, dps and mana to down the boss.
It won't be that way, because Grim Batol seems to be Naxx 3.0 - "entry raid ilvl", easy and puggable.

Coven
25-06-2010, 11:20 AM
It won't be that way, because Grim Batol seems to be Naxx 3.0 - "entry raid ilvl", easy and puggable.

Yeah, you're probably right, unless they're planning on blue drops for entry level / puggable raids.

Otherwise, how are Blizzard going to back up "epic items should feel epic"?

Wait and see I guess.

Vegelus
25-06-2010, 11:33 AM
Yeah, you're probably right, unless they're planning on blue drops for entry level / puggable raids.
Don't think so. It'll end the same way as KZ with raid epics being worse than heroic gear. With whines and quick buff.
Otherwise, how are Blizzard going to back up "epic items should feel epic"?

Wait and see I guess.
By saying "it feels epic!".

Feihcretsam
25-06-2010, 11:46 AM
I guess it doesn't really matter what colors the items have.... for players that didnt do vanilla as myself blues just have a really crappy feeling :P

I think raiders, as most of us are, will be full epic in a flash anyway

Exera
27-06-2010, 07:07 AM
I dont see why it even actually matters, everyone will be in full epics soon enough anyways. Thank god the "good" old days of selling your sole to the man downstairs just to be able to see a decent purple drop.

As long as the boss fights are interesting and challenging, the lore is good, the atmosphere is great everyone and their grandmother can be in full epics for all i care, as long as I get to play a good game.

Coven
28-06-2010, 12:02 PM
I dont see why it even actually matters, everyone will be in full epics soon enough anyways. Thank god the "good" old days of selling your sole to the man downstairs just to be able to see a decent purple drop.

As long as the boss fights are interesting and challenging, the lore is good, the atmosphere is great everyone and their grandmother can be in full epics for all i care, as long as I get to play a good game.

I don't disagree with that sentiment Ex, just that I personally had a much greater sense of 'z0MG!' when I upgraded gear in Vanilla. I really miss that sense of personal character progression. One of the things which made raiding a chore for me was that sense of 'more of the same' - gear up, kill boss, replace shoulders, gear up, kill new tier boss, replace shoulders again.

There was something just that little bit sweeter by gaining access to gear you could only get through raiding - this whole .0, 0.5, 0.9 thing just lacks a certain lustre. It was the big jump in gear level to face off against more challenging opponents than you'd ever see in an HC that helped spur me on when grinding dreamfoil and FR gear etc :) The gear sets as they are just eek out that sense of grind. If I save 50 badges, I can get a nice helm, then, I can save another 75 badges and get a very slight increase in stats etc. Before, the swap from early raid gear to latter stage gear was significant, noticable and more fulfilling.

Thordyn
28-06-2010, 05:56 PM
They should insert Pink tier items between Blue and Purple.
Boomslam.

Blizzard, I'll be waiting for the job offer.

Coven
29-06-2010, 08:23 AM
They should insert Pink tier items between Blue and Purple.

Pervert. :P

Gwynin
29-06-2010, 09:53 AM
Alltho I doubt they would ever dare to do it (I imagine the nerdrage it would provide), they could just bump down epics to blues once a new tier comes out. :D

Coven
29-06-2010, 10:46 AM
Alltho I doubt they would ever dare to do it (I imagine the nerdrage it would provide), they could just bump down epics to blues once a new tier comes out. :D

I think someone else may have mentioned similar above. But would it cause that much of an outrage? I wouldn't be bothered. It might even incentivise me to play more so I could be all nice and purple again :P

When everyone on the server has the item, it's not even rare anymore, let alone "epic." Turn them green I say! Now that would cause nerdrage ^^

I think Blizz tried to deal with this issue when they had items that could only be used on certain encounters/raids.

I think the access to Legendary items is just about right, there's probably only a few dozen per server before they become near equalised with improving epics (random stats guessing ftw!)

Showing some uber geek roots, I quite liked the idea of the AD&D Underdark, where the Drow had imba gear that was next to useless in the light. Maybe a mechanic like that could be introduced..? Underwater gear for the Maelstrom/Naga that needed to be wet to function... But, that too would no doubt have tanks moaning that their T12 gear and 200K health wasn't enough for badge run heroics anymore and they NEEDED their 200K health to take on lvl 85 HCs :P (or whatever equivalent numbers will be used in Cata 85 HCs equating the difference in necessary health pools for an HC instance to what lewt snobs demand now - i.e. demanding tanks have 55K+ health before they'll even consider running a random 80 HC).

Gwynin
29-06-2010, 11:51 AM
Imagine the bagspace the 3spec hybrids would need for your idea :P

Coven
30-06-2010, 08:44 AM
Imagine the bagspace the 3spec hybrids would need for your idea :P

Nah, it would be just like going swimming, you'd pay a gold for a locker to keep your swimming costume in :P

Torm
30-06-2010, 05:32 PM
I fail to see the need for Blizzard to colour coat everything, especially since stats is getting changed in Cataclysm.

Just go with iLevel or something similar instead of all these silly purples.

Vegelus
01-07-2010, 07:28 AM
I fail to see the need for Blizzard to colour coat everything, especially since stats is getting changed in Cataclysm.

Just go with iLevel or something similar instead of all these silly purples.
Colour does increase stats (or item points) on them.
Btw, looking at crafting recipes (blacksmithing) - yeah, "blue period" will be only for leveling.

Torm
01-07-2010, 06:10 PM
This I know, but it shouldn't have to be like that.

Atleast it didn't really matter much in previous MMOG's I played.

Coven
02-07-2010, 10:14 AM
Gear which scales up or down may be interesting... So, badge runs in HC's would give your raid gear a health cap, for example, so that even HCs would always be challenging to some degree.

What I'd realy like to see is gear which changes stats as you change spec, much the same as your toolbars do :) From Holy to Ret in one button press ^^ You grind your TX gear once - this might be a better incentive than set bonuses. Interesting concept at least :)

Flawless
02-07-2010, 04:31 PM
why not just expand the colour system, sorta Torchlight-esque the idea that Gold is epic but not part of a set. You get the idea.

Llort
04-07-2010, 01:51 AM
torchlight-esque idea already exists within blizzard games, I suppose you never (thoroughly) played diablo2+exp

Danzig
04-07-2010, 07:01 AM
Haven't Blizzard kind of solved this by adding a green "Heroic" text?

Purple gear + green heroic text = Vanilla epix?

Flawless
04-07-2010, 08:08 PM
torchlight-esque idea already exists within blizzard games, I suppose you never (thoroughly) played diablo2+exp

I just started yesterday in fact!