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Nixxar
26-04-2010, 09:38 AM
I was just wondering why Wrath isn't listed on the 10man progress, even though they have slain Heroic 10man LK as the only guild at this moment. Also, they are progressed furthest into ICC25 HC, and are ranked 5th?

Anyone know how this is possible? Or is this just another Alliance flavoured site?.

thurlog
26-04-2010, 10:06 AM
the lists on this forum are selfmaintained and don´t use pulls from wowprogress/guildox/stuff for the main rankings.
Why Wrath (and others) don't update can prolly be better answered by themselves. I think it has something to do with not liking how the rankings are counted

Nixxar
26-04-2010, 10:23 AM
the lists on this forum are selfmaintained and don´t use pulls from wowprogress/guildox/stuff for the main rankings.
Why Wrath (and others) don't update can prolly be better answered by themselves. I think it has something to do with not liking how the rankings are counted

Well, if your the #1 realm guild and are ranked 5th. Ye, I wouldn't like those rankings as they are bull :).

Elexin
26-04-2010, 05:32 PM
Well the reason they're ranked fifth with regards to 25man stuff is because they haven't updated a kill since Putricide.
When you take that into account, I'm surprised they haven't dropped further.

As far as 10man stuff goes, LK Heroic or not, I'm not actually sure where they'd fall because I don't know when their kills in older instances fell in relation to other guilds (I can't even estimate, as their 10man kill list doesn't list anything from Ulduar/TotC/Kara and I cba to go look all of that up. Ulduar/TotC bosses are like a foreign language to me anyway).

I think Saha said something about not wanting to take the time to update it, or it not being worth the time it would take to update it, but iirc Thurlog is right that they might have disliked the way the scores were calculated. I think it was that it calculates the rank score using achievements too, so some kills get counted multiple times.
There are other guilds (not Wrath) who have mentioned to me that they dislike the fact that (the dates of) old kills count so much too.

I considered updating the kill page myself at one point, but then I realised if I started hunting down the information for one guild that wasn't updating, I'd never be finished, because I wouldn't just end up doing it for one guild, I'd end up doing it for others. And from there, quite possibly for guilds that aren't even listed on this site, because hey otherwise I'd get confused when trying to tally that stuff up from other sources where extra guilds were included (theres at least one frontpage post which includes one of them anyway, as one of my friends was (is?) in it and had been all "We killed stuff!" to me at the time). I don't know enough about the raid scene these days to even try and keep track of that many guilds (and I'm not sure I'd have the time or motivation either).

Saha
26-04-2010, 05:53 PM
I stopped updating as soon as I realized it calculates some worthless achievements into "raid progress" ranking. Raid progress is killing stuff, not dancing in red dresses in triangular formation while spamming /kiss emote.

EDIT: Besides that, any ranking system which is dependent on guilds updating stuff themselves is bound to have huge flaws. Taking direct feeds from armory or already established ranking websites is the way to go.

Alverion
26-04-2010, 06:35 PM
I agree

Shiverchill
27-04-2010, 01:33 AM
I agree
Well, that was constructive


On a serious note, im pretty sure nobody actually cars about guild rankings here (no offence to sse). People on the realm know the guilds and progress, and people migrating can always check wowprogress.
Besides, if people wanted to have a working AND fair system of ranking, too much time would be spent on implementing and maintaining it than the actual usefulness gained, imo.

What we can do, is just basic manual ranking of:

Normal10: Realm first full clear by guild X, then guild Y, guild Z, guild A, guild B, etc.
Heroic10: same as normal 10 but boss by boss basis
and same for 25.

Basically no points, just the actual fact for a boss kill. That way the #1 ranked guild will be the one who got the boss kill faster, and if tied, then the guild that got most first boss kills in whole raid instance.

Alternatively, can just abolish the ranking page if nobody plans to use/update it.

Elexin
27-04-2010, 01:51 AM
Sorry and all, but a few guilds abstaining from updates (and some that aren't signed up) hardly means that "nobody" is using/updating it; tons of other guilds and raid alliances are.
You can't abolish the entire ranking page saying "nobody" is using it just because a couple of guilds don't want to play ball.

As for the point system, its there to do pretty much what you want that 'fair' ranking to do. It ranks the instance relative to whoever killed that particular boss first.
From my PoV I'd prefer the system to diminish the overall importance of older kills (say, Karazhan or so), but its easy for me to say things like that becaues I don't have to bother about coding and so forth ;)

Including the achievement stuff in the tally may have thrown a spanner in the works, but thats not a problem with the point system itself. For all Wrath dislike having achievement stuff included, a lot of other guilds make the effort to take the extra steps required to get those achievements, and while some can't exactly be held up as bastions of awesome, some of the others like the Tributes to Insanity do seem to be well worth mentioning.
(And yes, I do know saying they are worth mentioning when I don't actually mention them is a bit hypocritical, but thats simply because I refuse to do any updates for anything prior to Icecrown. I came 'back' to start doing updates and so forth when Icecrown was released; it gave me a stepping stone. To even stand a chance at backtracking to sort out Ulduar/TotC progress I wouldn't need a stepping stone, I'd need equipment for scaling a sheer cliff, and I'm not going there)

As for that manual ranking actually being manually arranged?
Hell no.
We actually used to have a manually maintained list that did something similar; I updated it. I wouldn't want to go back.
What you're proposing for how those guilds would be manually ranked wouldn't even be that simple to work out. I want to explain why, but I can't find a proper way to phrase it... I'm tilting towards "nothing is ever that clearcut". It doesn't actually cover what you're saying at all, but I'm tired, and thats about as far as I can get that thought to go right now.

Nixxar
27-04-2010, 06:57 AM
Basically, this means this sites ranking are terribly false and the fact Wrath ain't on number one makes this ranking stupid.

Vegelus
27-04-2010, 07:21 AM
Basically, this means this sites ranking are terribly false and the fact Wrath ain't on number one makes this ranking stupid.
Seems you still don't understand this. I don't know, if you're simply retarded or just a fanboy, but I'll write it again:

It's Wrath that decided they aren't listed as 1st here. System isn't flawed as it seems.


I stopped updating as soon as I realized it calculates some worthless achievements into "raid progress" ranking. Raid progress is killing stuff, not dancing in red dresses in triangular formation while spamming /kiss emote.
Oh yes, it is. All that fancy achievs counted in metas are listed and ranked by wowprogress (yes, you can choose method of ranking: encounter or achievement wise, but second one is there), mmo-champs does inform about world/zone first Glories.

And another thing, where were you when this system was designed? There was a thread about ranking system, before work on current one even started. No posts from you (this is the thread I'm talking about: http://www.shadowsongeurope.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18722 ). So eat it up, kiddo, you've had your chance to change things, but you did nothing. All you can do now is either play with the others (as update ranking here or make someone else do it) or simply shut up and stop whining.


On a serious note, im pretty sure nobody actually cars about guild rankings here
Yeah, looking at what Elexin wrote and at the updates, "nobody" means only "Wrath" in your sentence. All the other guilds been updating their progress recently.

Of course system isn't ideal and might be redundant. For example "Once Bitten, Twice Shy" achiev from BQL doesn't show anything about guild, as it's more of personal only achiev.

Gwynin
27-04-2010, 08:36 AM
I actually like to come on here and tell about whats happend for the guild, makes the place look a bit more active and so.. :)

However I must admit I dont like the way the old instances have so much weight, becos as Elexin mentioned its a bloody pain trying to find correct dates for when and what was killed "ages" ago. :)

valence
27-04-2010, 09:17 AM
I believe SSE'ans know very well who is who on the server

Outsiders will check wowprogress, not this website, for this information.

SSE rankings as they stand are simply no longer fit for purpose. Manual updating will always be inacurate, incomplete, error-prone, late or just plain false. Why bother?

Vegelus
27-04-2010, 09:41 AM
Outsiders will check wowprogress, not this website, for this information.
You might be suprised how many times I've linked this ranking to some /trade askers that had just xtransferred here. Scrubs? Maybe. Not knowing wowprogress? Some did check that before /tradespam, but wanted some info from inside.

SSE rankings as they stand are simply no longer fit for purpose. Manual updating will always be inacurate, incomplete, error-prone, late or just plain false. Why bother?
I'll use Sohmer's (LFGComic) signature: Because We Can.

Über
27-04-2010, 10:25 AM
Achievements (generally) have always seemed to be something non-valuable extra stuff to do, just for laughs. And if someone is determined to make them their priority, why not let them do so? I mean, it's not like the achievement farmers are taking anything away from the progress raiders. Just like people who decide to dedicate their wow playing to collecting pets.. Simple, innocent fun.

I'm sure many people disagree here but for me atleast the two things are pretty much on the same level.

Gwynin
27-04-2010, 01:30 PM
And in addition to Vegelus's response : SSE is a community, wowprogress is not. That certain guilds seem to think themselves too high up in the ivory tower to bother with the rest us, does not change that minor fact at all.

Nixxar
27-04-2010, 03:52 PM
As said before, updates are to be done by the site admin to keep good track of it. A guild should in no way be forced to update manually, as wowprogress is the only one that counts in terms of progress. Better take the feed from there.

On another mind, SSE has terrible progress, with only 1 good guild (Wrath). The rest is still years behind in terms of progress.

Elexin
27-04-2010, 04:03 PM
As said before, updates are to be done by the site admin to keep good track of it. A guild should in no way be forced to update manually, as wowprogress is the only one that counts in terms of progress. Better take the feed from there.

On another mind, SSE has terrible progress, with only 1 good guild (Wrath). The rest is still years behind in terms of progress.

Sure, just let me go tell Turiel that you think he should keep track of progress for every guild on this realm all on his own. I'm sure he'll be thrilled.

Random aside, not sure how accurate it is to say this now but whatever; I'm pretty sure Wowprogress only takes guilds into account, because it takes feeds from armoury? SSE historically has had a lot of raid alliances. I'm not sure how many it has now, but I can think of a few at least, and wowprogress feeds would omit them completely.

I am a fan of the "community" mention above though. Isn't it just more fun being involved when you know that things are a collaborative effort, and that lots of people are taking part?

Gwynin
27-04-2010, 08:33 PM
As said before, updates are to be done by the site admin to keep good track of it. A guild should in no way be forced to update manually, as wowprogress is the only one that counts in terms of progress. Better take the feed from there.

Im fairly certain that wowprogress only auto updates the top10 guildes (or something like that) per server, which also agrees with Turiel's previous explanation on why not every guild is mentioned in the 'guild/character' event section



On another mind, SSE has terrible progress, with only 1 good guild (Wrath). The rest is still years behind in terms of progress.


Thanks for the collective bashing, allow me to respond with a "frak you too and please frak off to a different server, not gonna miss ya"

Saha
27-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Last time I checked front page has "raid rankings", "25-man raid progress", "10-man raid progress". I didn't see "achievement progress" anywhere there. I wouldn't update even if it was kills only. It is retarded to have to do so when you can take direct feeds from several places of your choice. I'll leave it to Vegelus, he's good at recruiting in trade as it seems and could use, same as several other guilds, false advertisement. I couldn't care less. I know what we have killed and I know what you have killed. I don't need imaginary progress to feel better.
Go collect your pets and enjoy your dead "SSE community". It has been gone for a year+ at least. Kudos for Turiel and Lex trying, but you can't breathe live into something which is already dead, buried and rotten. Ever since mid TBC you could have renamed this place to "funny pics and what you are listening threads" and it would reflect 90% of activity here. The remaining 10% would be boss kill reports and some idiotic posts about ufos and what not. Only sparkle of life was when new site was lauched due to tremendous work Turiel and Lex put in. But it wore out.

captpicard
27-04-2010, 10:09 PM
Sure, just let me go tell Turiel that you think he should keep track of progress for every guild on this realm all on his own. I'm sure he'll be thrilled.


Turiel you should keep track of progress for every guild on this realm all on your own.

You are welcome.






















What i donated money in 2006, you owe ,me ;-)

Nixxar
28-04-2010, 05:31 AM
As Saha said, this site doesn't reflect true progress, but something that's not even considered interesting.

Fnurgle
28-04-2010, 06:07 AM
I think efforts to strengthen the community - such as these rankings - are commendable. But the rankings is a bad implementation of this, since they are provided in a much better form elsewhere. The raid progress thread on this site is a much more valuable "ranking" form in that it promotes conversation about recent kills or achievements.

Personally, if I want to see what bosses some guild killed or the overall "strength" of Shadowsong guilds I rather go to guildox or wowprogress, since I know they pull correct data from the armory. And that's still coming from a competitive guild that also updates on SSE.

Nixxar
28-04-2010, 07:28 AM
Ranking imported from WOWprogress

Rank Guild Progress World Rank Criteria
1 Wrath (r) 11/12 (H)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25)
H: Lady Deathwhisper (25)
H: Gunship Battle (25)
H: Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
H: Festergut (25)
H: Rotface (25)
H: Professor Putricide (25)
H: Blood Prince Council (25)
H: Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
H: Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
H: Sindragosa (25)
H: The Lich King (25)
183 7219.00
2 MCO (r) 11/12 (H)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25)
H: Lady Deathwhisper (25)
H: Gunship Battle (25)
H: Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
H: Festergut (25)
H: Rotface (25)
H: Professor Putricide (25)
H: Blood Prince Council (25)
H: Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
H: Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
H: Sindragosa (25)
H: The Lich King (25)
626 6446.27
3 Core of Insight (r) 10/12 (H)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25)
H: Lady Deathwhisper (25)
H: Gunship Battle (25)
H: Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
H: Festergut (25)
H: Rotface (25)
H: Professor Putricide (25)
H: Blood Prince Council (25)
H: Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
H: Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
H: Sindragosa (25)
H: The Lich King (25)
658 5626.84
4 Alternate Reali.. (r) 9/12 (H)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25)
H: Lady Deathwhisper (25)
H: Gunship Battle (25)
H: Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
H: Festergut (25)
H: Rotface (25)
H: Professor Putricide (25)
H: Blood Prince Council (25)
H: Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
H: Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
H: Sindragosa (25)
H: The Lich King (25)
1423 2662.84
5 Nox (r) 9/12 (H)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25)
H: Lady Deathwhisper (25)
H: Gunship Battle (25)
H: Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
H: Festergut (25)
H: Rotface (25)
H: Professor Putricide (25)
H: Blood Prince Council (25)
H: Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
H: Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
H: Sindragosa (25)
H: The Lich King (25)
1446 2655.06
6 Original (r) 9/12 (H)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25)
H: Lady Deathwhisper (25)
H: Gunship Battle (25)
H: Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
H: Festergut (25)
H: Rotface (25)
H: Professor Putricide (25)
H: Blood Prince Council (25)
H: Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
H: Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
H: Sindragosa (25)
H: The Lich King (25)
1582 2604.11
7 Hive (r) 3/12 (H)
H: Lord Marrowgar (25)
H: Lady Deathwhisper (25)
H: Gunship Battle (25)
H: Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
H: Festergut (25)
H: Rotface (25)
H: Professor Putricide (25)
H: Blood Prince Council (25)
H: Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
H: Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
H: Sindragosa (25)
H: The Lich King (25)
3225 368.00
8 Raid to Nowhere (r) 12/12
Lord Marrowgar (25)
Lady Deathwhisper (25)
Gunship Battle (25)
Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
Festergut (25)
Rotface (25)
Professor Putricide (25)
Blood Prince Council (25)
Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
Sindragosa (25)
The Lich King (25)
3656 170.59
9 Aftermath 11/12
Lord Marrowgar (25)
Lady Deathwhisper (25)
Gunship Battle (25)
Deathbringer Saurfang (25)
Festergut (25)
Rotface (25)
Professor Putricide (25)
Blood Prince Council (25)
Blood-Queen Lana'thel (25)
Valithria Dreamwalker (25)
Sindragosa (25)
The Lich King (25)
3886 69.55

Llort
28-04-2010, 10:02 AM
Nixxard, if you don't like it here, then why don't you just go transfer your guild elsewhere?

Or better yet, make your own site, with your own forum and your own progress tracking?

I bet you are one of those guys that also picks people out on DPS instead of how they are? Nitpicking on those that dont do ZOFMG 5500 DPS!!111 but only do 5400!!11111 KICK KICK!111

Seriously, chill down, it is not like people will die from inaccurate rankings. So far it has worked for us, if you don't like it /care

Qiro
28-04-2010, 02:53 PM
Looks like there is here alot of Discussions going on ;)

Gwynin
28-04-2010, 03:23 PM
Tbh there isnt much of a discussion, its clear that certain guilds/people not really want to be part of the community that is SSE. But at the same time they want the right to bitch about the rankings not being correct, which again only can be blamed on their lack of (minor required) effort.

However I do agree that old raids should not be counted when a new tier opens, firstly it does gives a slightly wrong ranking since they can be more easily achieved with gear from the new tier (if they have value on new ranking) and as Elexin mentioned it is quite a bitch to go back and update that progress from back when it was relevant.



Nixxar should still eff off tho....

Clínt
28-04-2010, 06:10 PM
Nixxar are you really that stupid or just pretending?! I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and going for pretending but you're quickly persuading me otherwise at the moment

Annoachi
30-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Right now I'd honestly just be happy if the site would let me update my guild's progress. :D It used to let me, so not sure what's up.

Coven
30-04-2010, 01:20 PM
I'm not sure what effect having guild ranking positively affects the SSE community in anything other than another reason to log on.

The reason I'm not as active on SSE as the Hive forums, and I'm pretty sure many others feel similarly, is that my first loyalty is to my guild above and beyond the server.

In general, most half decent guilds have a strong community. We chat and play daily. Bonds of friendship, or at least thoughts of "I know we won't wipe with X as a tank" happen within guilds.

I check SSE daily, but there's rarely anything of interest in terms of WoW related threads. I thought there'd be loads of discussion about 10 vs. 25 man raiding in Cata threads here, but not one post. That's a major potential drama subject, but nothing! :O

My guild forum is just better populated with game updates, class discussions, WoW previews as well as off topic items and has an environment where you know you won't get "WTFnublrn2plai" replies when starting a new alt and asking about gearing or talent points.

I think Thunk (>Turiel) has done an admirable job taking the time to develop this site, it's unfortunate that we're not all as generous with our time or congeniality. I stopped using SSE originally mainly because of the inter guild rivalries and flaming.

If we can create an interesting information resource for open discussion, more people would use. But that relies of amicable relations and a number of interesting discussion threads ofc ;)

thurlog
30-04-2010, 02:55 PM
i blame the newsbot

vattghern
01-05-2010, 06:49 AM
The community died out long time ago. And Nixxar wtf are you on about? For now you just behave like some kind of fanboi. It is indifferent for me whether you are one or not. Also nice wall of text here for no real purpose except postcount.

Tyrannis
10-05-2010, 08:17 AM
Didn't Nixxar leave already?

http://www.shadowsongeurope.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21746

Cheiftan
10-05-2010, 11:08 AM
Talking of being shit - Didn't we kick Nixxar from the first raid he joined with us for being utterly, terribly, horribly, mindcuntingly bollocks?

inacup
10-05-2010, 04:32 PM
Well I replaced him after he failed to run out from Sindragosa's grip for the 4th time. Then he threw some profanities and told us where to go in /g and left.

lorlad
10-05-2010, 05:46 PM
Yeah he failed to achieve a 180 spin with his mouse and the run away from blistering cold, blames his computer then QQ when he was replaced...

Sylfide
10-05-2010, 07:39 PM
Mouse? I wouldnt even trust my cat to play wow...

Nixxar
12-05-2010, 01:01 PM
Well I replaced him after he failed to run out from Sindragosa's grip for the 4th time. Then he threw some profanities and told us where to go in /g and left.

Yes, I remember you kicking me out because I had lag issues. Very nice to sort that with a guild kick instantly when the week before that I performed fine and was there on your first Sindragosa kill as a guild.

I left already? Ye, I did, so what? I keep reading this terrible place to annoy people, and only that, because you have all been such mean bastards to me!

I like making people nerdrage over my actions, it's both useful and entertaining.

And I still stand on my first post. That this site is way to Alliance flavored and ridicoulously badly moderated due to not being able to find Wrath's progress, which is far more awesome then for instance Hive, Nox, CoI, MCO.

Cheiftan
12-05-2010, 01:32 PM
So just to clarify: You died 4 times in a row to Blistering Cold and were replaced in the raid. Due to lag, or whatever, I don't care. You then /gquit.

I guess what you're saying is that the other 24 people should have just carried you through the fight while you lay dead on the ground? Because replacing someone because they die all the time (literally, ALL the time) is such a bad thing, right?

Also, do you get a prize for sucking Wrath's collective penis? I hope you made them use a rubber before they went in to the balls.

Nixxar
12-05-2010, 01:39 PM
So just to clarify: You died 4 times in a row to Blistering Cold and were replaced in the raid. Due to lag, or whatever, I don't care. You then /gquit.

I guess what you're saying is that the other 24 people should have just carried you through the fight while you lay dead on the ground? Because replacing someone because they die all the time (literally, ALL the time) is such a bad thing, right?

Also, do you get a prize for sucking Wrath's collective penis? I hope you made them use a rubber before they went in to the balls.

If you read my post correctly, you would have seen I stated I had lag issues, not to mention I got kicked, not /gquit.

Sucking Wrath's Penis? No thanks, my rants will hit them sometime too, but as far as these site rankings go it's just plain bad and untrue as is my virginity ...

Rubbers? Who the fuck needs rubbers? Get married kid.