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Flawless
12-02-2010, 10:29 PM
http://www.lrguild.org/

Its been a long, strange trip indeed - but now it's over, at least for Last Resort as we know it. The time has come for us to throw in the towel and move the fuck on. I am a bit surprised that most of us actually lasted this long (maybe some will last even longer.. i hope not, get out while you can!) in this horrible, horrible game. What's there to say really? It has been many ups and many downers (people) over the years but until WOTLK came it was actually pretty enjoyable, I would say. Now the game has taken a drastic turn and is dumbed down into oblivion. It is no longer enough to just play one character, no no, you have to play three - run the instances not one time, but around 6 times per week, if you want to keep up with progression. Seriously, what the fuck? It is even funnier that the people who started all of this used to whine about people bringing extra warlocks for soulstones or even class stacking. Anyway.. This isn't meant to be a FFTC (keep fighting y'all, gr8sb4r8s) rant, so I will move on.




It's been almost five years since we signed the roster and started Last Resort (really should have gone with seldom a thermos bounces). Five years is a long time and we have had so many people coming and going. Many of the people who have left were a big part of the guild and the spirit and community died a little every time. Now the leadership of the guild has finally grown tired of it and lost most of our motivation, I assume that many of our members feel the same way. It has been like this for a long time and we have just kept going for the sake of it, for the community and all the cool people in LR, but no more. WOTLK was the beginning of the end and im sure Cataclysm will be even easier and if possible even more retarded (enjoy running your 10 alt raids, negigrs). Anyway, back to the point. Thanks for all the good memories and adventures (theres been many!), thanks for all the drama provided and for all the idiots visiting our forums and making our days more amusing, no hard feelings m8s. Ofcourse, thanks to Blizzard for providing us all the entertainment and a really good game (at least until the horror that is WOTLK was released)..

So, one last cy@ from us in LR!

Perhaps its because I'm not part of the PvE elite of this game, perhaps I just don't get it. Is it solely because there feels there is hardly any character progression these days that the top end guilds are annoyed?

I just don't get the hate to WotLK. Is it because there is no PvE cockblocks (resistance gear, endless farming of pots day in day out)? Enlighten me SSE.

Ashym
12-02-2010, 10:40 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if more and more guilds threw it in after heroic ICC, raiding isn't particularly fun anymore, at least from where I stand. Having to test the water of the new limited tries bosses with alts is ridiculous. TBC started the 11am raiding, now WotLK has started the alt raiding, it's just going to get worse for the guilds/leaders of guilds that don't want to have to put *that* much organisation effort into it.

As for WotLK hate, I think it's just towards how nothing is distinguishable anymore, 2 years ago I could tell you what set belonged to which class and now I have't got the foggiest idea (232/245/258 tiers all the same graphic), and how casual friendly/"easy" it's become.

Flawless
12-02-2010, 11:03 PM
So why is Vanilla raiding so much more desirable? People would be whining that attempts would be pointless if there was 60 of them. People would be whining that all content could be cleared from 6pm-10pm raiding (not unlike now), and there would probably be a riot at Blizzard's offices if there was ever anything as stupid as Huhuran ever again. As for the organisation point of view well isn't that the cost of wanting to be into a competitive guild?

At the end of the day it will be a very small % that will ever kill 25 man Lich King heroic.

It's not something that appeals to me going back to 40 man, endless wipe raiding, endless point farming but even if it was reverted would it be as we remember it with all the changes to WoW?

Ashym
12-02-2010, 11:28 PM
Honestly I don't get all the "bring back vanilla raids" stuff, it was messy and hard to organise, not to mention to recruit for.

Vanilla had a huge sense of community feel though, a lot of the players were registered and frequently posting on this site, now it's just transfers transfers transfers that probably don't even know this is here, and bashing on people/guilds. Turiel's rebirth of the site wasn't really very successful in my opinion, I loved what he did for it and participated to an extent, but it just didn't take off like it used to/I expected/hoped it would.

19-23 for 5 days a week like was pretty "standard" for the top end guilds back then was fine, there was no alt raids, no 10mans and certainly no raiding in the early afternoon.

This week, Paragon have raided in 3 days what people would probably raid in 3-4-5 weeks including their alts and 10mans and such, but even so, it wouldn't have cleared Naxxramas up to Kel'Thuzad in that same amount of time, so I guess the "vanilla content was hard" arguement does have something to stand on, but you couldn't get your guild "out there" in as many ways as you can now, and say "look we're the best guild ever, we need the best players ever" and just build the best team possible, you more or less got what you were given.

These days it's much more than a game, sponsorships, news, guild progress sites, combat log parse analysis, so even if we were still raiding "hard" content, it would be steamrolled by the best of the best due to server transfers.

Least thats how I remember it/think of it.

dantheman
12-02-2010, 11:47 PM
I honestly think if they had never added cross server battlegrounds, server transfers etc then the server community would be alot better. It's not so much that I think Vanilla was a better game, in most ways it wasn't but it was certainly more fun and exciting. I guess another thing is that WoW just doesn't feel "new" anymore.

The first time I saw Ragnaros was easily the best gaming moment i've ever had. Well killing him was but you know what I mean. Nothing in the game feels that epic anymore.

I miss the Horde premade we had going more than anything though. Being able to totally trust in my teammates ability and will to win is what being in a team is all about and at the moment is about the only thing that will get me to play Cata (Rated BGs). Playing opponants you know makes you want to win alot more than against random player from random server that you'll never see again.

Flawless
13-02-2010, 12:08 AM
Impressive to see this get derailed so quickly,

Two things,

I assume you mean SSE when you say the community, give people a reason to come here other a couple of good threads, after the drama/shit-talk people stopped caring. SSE is hardly the community hub of the Shadowsong server, not that it hasn't had the chances to be either.

Ragnaros being epic, it's nostalgia. I'm sure people who raided for their first time ever in TBC/WotLK feel the same about whatever boss they downed and how that epic feeling is never the same. Raiding is just another part of the game, looking past how epic it was to down Rag it was annoying how much gold, pots went into wiping on what is a technically easy encounter.

Über
13-02-2010, 07:29 AM
19-23 for 5 days a week like was pretty "standard" for the top end guilds back then was fine, there was no alt raids, no 10mans and certainly no raiding in the early afternoon.

For us it was more like 6-7 days (depending on the progress), plus alt raids which did take place in early afternoon. I remember days when I logged in after breakfast, farmed some pots, joined in a alt raid, which was followed by two proper raids and crashing to the bed after that. But then again, Vek'nilash (the server) was opened after Naxx was introduced to the game so that pretty much forced us to the tight schedule. But still, I think your idea of the standard raiding week in vanilla is pretty mild when compared to the top guilds of that era.

Ashym
13-02-2010, 08:14 AM
Probably was quite mild yeah, I wasn't much into the scene back then.

valence
13-02-2010, 10:53 AM
http://www.lrguild.org/



Perhaps its because I'm not part of the PvE elite of this game, perhaps I just don't get it. Is it solely because there feels there is hardly any character progression these days that the top end guilds are annoyed?

I just don't get the hate to WotLK. Is it because there is no PvE cockblocks (resistance gear, endless farming of pots day in day out)? Enlighten me SSE.

They failed to kill LK on first week and realised that by doing so they would never hit top 30 again as they are now lagging one week behind in hard mode experience/gear, coupled with the fact an alt(2nd main) 25 raid is now required to hit those top spots; That's how it is now thanks to blizzard's 20 attempts bullshit.

Having tried LK25 in both limitted tries and unlimited mode, I have to say it is so much more fun now when you can just pull and learn, you can even have a laugh when someone makes a silly mistake. When it's limited attempts: spending 30 minutes talking before each pull, rage when someone makes a mistake and wastes a try, etc, its just not fun.

I wish blizzard would remove the limited attempts and simply made hard modes harder accordingly, for example Yogg0 took 3 months for a world first, now I'm pretty sure if Lich king hard didn't have limited attempts he'd be deaded already

Saha
13-02-2010, 11:17 AM
There has been really very few boss fights in WotLK which gave the feeling of achievement of killing it. Atm it's "right, this one dropped dead, who's next?" Yogg+0 and Mimiron hard proley are only proper bosses of the expansion. Seems like Putri hard and Arthas hard will join the company. 4 bosses in over a year is a bit too little.
Having to run several raid instance IDs within the same guild if you want "fast" progress. It requires fuckton of effort yet gives the edge of only couple weeks/month tops.
Several raid IDs makes bosses not really look like something unique and hard towards what all guild works. Spread out, rush through several 10 mans, go with alts to 25, go for kill with mains.
Too much gear coming too fast. Hard working, good players get the edge of gear for a month or so until everything is nerfed or scrubs get the gear from Wintergrasp or, lol, by doing 5 mans.
"Everyone has to see content" leads to hardly any difference between good and poor players progress in the game. Kills motivation to improve.


Obviously, boss encounters are getting more complex fight mechanics wise which is good. However difficulty is not scaling properly. We've all seen that Blizz CAN make hard good encounters in SWP. Yet they refuse to, even on hardmodes. Most of Ulduar, all Coliseum and now 90% of ICC goes like this: 10 man - zerg through it, 25 normal - zerg through it (complete retards will finish it in 2 months). Hard modes - Mediocre guilds (who have successfully rooted out keyboard turners but still have quite a few clickers in the raid) will clear it in 1-2 months. Retards will clear half of it and finish it when new tier is out (which they shouldn't, since atm they clear it because of gear inflation with each new raid instance).

Jimmy the Necromancer
13-02-2010, 11:45 AM
Blizzard's thinking is that the tip-of-the-iceberg-hardcore guilds would be satisfied competing on the top 200 ladder while still keeping the fights easy enough for casual raiders.

I think the best thing Blizzard can do for Cataclysm to keep raiders happy for the entire duration of the expansion is go beyond normal/heroic version and introduce a kind of difficulty counter that goes from 1 to 10, where boss HP, damage get higher and higher and maybe even introduce new abilities. They wouldn't award better gear, except when passing from 4 to 5 for example, but you also couldn't technically be able to defeat a level 6-7 boss of the first tier until the second tier is released, and even then only by experienced raiders. Level 5+ of the end boss would be restricted to top 500 guilds, and level 10 would be downed by top 20 after gearing their entire raid in BiS gear.

It'd be relatively simple to implement I imagine. Bit of balance testing, but nothing more.

vattghern
13-02-2010, 12:02 PM
It is a shame LR is quitting. For me it feels just like when Forte announced that they are no more, just on higher level as it is a Horde guild I always liked the most.

I actually cba to elaborate on WotLK. I am disappointed with it on one hand and on the other it is okay I can have nice looking alts for almost no effort. Bbut is it really good in the long run? Don't think so. Recently I do not even have the motivation to log my alts to do random IC/weekly/whatnot. It'd be impossible in TBC that I'd miss an opportunity to gear my alts up.

vattghern
13-02-2010, 12:09 PM
I think the best thing Blizzard can do for Cataclysm to keep raiders happy for the entire duration of the expansion is go beyond normal/heroic version and introduce a kind of difficulty counter that goes from 1 to 10, where boss HP, damage get higher and higher and maybe even introduce new abilities. They wouldn't award better gear, except when passing from 4 to 5 for example, but you also couldn't technically be able to defeat a level 6-7 boss of the first tier until the second tier is released, and even then only by experienced raiders. Level 5+ of the end boss would be restricted to top 500 guilds, and level 10 would be downed by top 20 after gearing their entire raid in BiS gear.

It'd be relatively simple to implement I imagine. Bit of balance testing, but nothing more.

Could you elaborate? I am afraid I do not understand. You do want to have 10 levels on the same bosses? You do want to have bosses that are impossible to kill? And how are you going to ensure that only 20 guilds kills Deathwing hard10level?

Also, I don't know you, or how long do you play, but please do not say anything about Blizzard and balance testing.

Goonerr
13-02-2010, 12:27 PM
They should bring back 40 mans like the good old days, when (in my opinion) wow was the most fun, to much of a chore now... is why i play eve instead.

Jimmy the Necromancer
13-02-2010, 01:09 PM
Could you elaborate? I am afraid I do not understand. You do want to have 10 levels on the same bosses? You do want to have bosses that are impossible to kill? And how are you going to ensure that only 20 guilds kills Deathwing hard10level?

Also, I don't know you, or how long do you play, but please do not say anything about Blizzard and balance testing.

What'd be wrong in having extremely difficult encounters providing that they don't award better gear, just add something more for raiders to struggle for? PvP doesn't award anything better from Gladiator until the #1 rank, or anything useful from 2200 to 2900, but people still continue to strive to get higher and higher. I can't imagine it would be much different for PvE players.

By balance testing I meant something basic like ensuring transition between levels adds something more than bringing an extra tank/raid healer, ie lower berserk timer.

@ Goonerr - what are you talking about? Too much of a chore now as opposed to vanilla? It's the complete opposite.

Flawless
13-02-2010, 01:41 PM
What'd be wrong in having extremely difficult encounters providing that they don't award better gear, just add something more for raiders to struggle for? PvP doesn't award anything better from Gladiator until the #1 rank, or anything useful from 2200 to 2900, but people still continue to strive to get higher and higher. I can't imagine it would be much different for PvE players.


@ Goonerr - what are you talking about? Too much of a chore now as opposed to vanilla? It's the complete opposite.

Agreed the fact you can log on, raid, spend 10 minutes getting your shit ready for the next then log off was never able to be achieved in Vanilla. Raiding now is far less of a chore, feels less like you are balancing your life around what you want to do in WoW and more, WoW is just a game and raiding is a part that can be easily achieved by most.

Raiding is a chore now? How?

However, isn't that the problem now as Saha puts it that character progression is never really there, "oh whoopie, level10HDW down a patch later Dknitek is walking around with just sub-power obtainable with hardly a % of the effort involved. I was able to gear up (when 3.3 was released) in a couple of week to the same sort of level it took a friend a few months to achieve, but I also believe part of this is also to how accessible the gear is to Dknitedk, then again people have always whined and moaned about good gear being "given" to scrubs (I remember Chonar having some rant about Ice Barbed Spear for instance) It's hardly a problem Blizzard can solve easily when they're trying to keep all sides happy.

Rhomburr
13-02-2010, 02:25 PM
I'm not sorry to see Last Resort quit. The fun can be sucked from the game but a few go on as they think people depend on them or it is just what they have always done. Good luck to the members of Last Resort.

Community - Drama I thought they where the same thing? no community no drama and vice versa. Anyway whats wrong with drama TV is full of it.

Raiding guilds have a lot more advantages than they had in the past from tactics to better analysis and mods. In the past there where more bosses with gear checks like resist gear or HP that couldn't be passed by uber skills or bugs and you couldn't progress till they where killed and ofc keys and attunements kept the top tier instances mostly lag free. Blizz don't run wow for the top 1% I don't think they ever did maybe they used to make a game they would like to play now its game played by millions.

Many play wow to excess and when you look to deep and close at anything you will often find the flaws but im sure the majority of players still enjoy wow and blizz will keep going forward and not backwards. To many people living in the past

vattghern
13-02-2010, 03:38 PM
What'd be wrong in having extremely difficult encounters providing that they don't award better gear, just add something more for raiders to struggle for? PvP doesn't award anything better from Gladiator until the #1 rank, or anything useful from 2200 to 2900, but people still continue to strive to get higher and higher. I can't imagine it would be much different for PvE players.

By balance testing I meant something basic like ensuring transition between levels adds something more than bringing an extra tank/raid healer, ie lower berserk timer.


You did not answer my questions. So, could you?

There is nothing wrong in having hard bosses. It is silly to have 10 modes for each boss. It kills the accomplishment part and this part is what most people relate to when talking about lack of hard bosses or hard enough content. It also somehow kills concept of progression. Let me ask you this do you play many games on easy mode and then play them on hard mode again and feel it's brand new, exciting and refreshing? I do not as it's the same experience for me and I would rather have one difficulty level and see who can progress in that.

Let's take Lich King, the ultimate boss of this expansion. It should be hard to reach him, it should be hard to kill him on normal mode. Now the only difficulty is that unless you have sorted your shit out in 3 10 man groups and an 25 man alt raid it might be somehwat difficult to kill him within those 20 (or less if god forbid you wiped on Sindragosa or any other boss) attempts. So what you have now is, 'Hooray guys! Look, we have just killed Lich King, the ultimate boss! Oh wait he's not been the ultimate boss, the ultimate boss is the other Lich King. Let's do it another week when he gathered more strength'. Stupid concept.

Consider how long did it take to clear Naxxramas or kill C'thun (that may be bad exapmle and some kind of example of what you wanted to have - boss that noone is able to kill) now compare it to ultimate boss of WotLK. See the difference?

Besides WoW suffers from what I would call crappy Game Master syndrome. I am relating to old RPG games.

Flawless
13-02-2010, 03:51 PM
I do believe the attempts system was a bad idea, at least in normal mode. When you eventually reach the ability to do heroics you should know what all the bosses are capable of and shouldn't need this to do alt runs to test the water. Where as (as I see it, people may disagree) heroic ToTC25 was punishing your mistakes rather than your ability to learn a completely new encounter quickly.

Jimmy the Necromancer
13-02-2010, 04:13 PM
You did not answer my questions. So, could you?

There is nothing wrong in having hard bosses. It is silly to have 10 modes for each boss. It kills the accomplishment part and this part is what most people relate to when talking about lack of hard bosses or hard enough content. It also somehow kills concept of progression. Let me ask you this do you play many games on easy mode and then play them on hard mode again and feel it's brand new, exciting and refreshing? I do not as it's the same experience for me and I would rather have one difficulty level and see who can progress in that.

Let's take Lich King, the ultimate boss of this expansion. It should be hard to reach him, it should be hard to kill him on normal mode. Now the only difficulty is that unless you have sorted your shit out in 3 10 man groups and an 25 man alt raid it might be somehwat difficult to kill him within those 20 (or less if god forbid you wiped on Sindragosa or any other boss) attempts. So what you have now is, 'Hooray guys! Look, we have just killed Lich King, the ultimate boss! Oh wait he's not been the ultimate boss, the ultimate boss is the other Lich King. Let's do it another week when he gathered more strength'. Stupid concept.

Consider how long did it take to clear Naxxramas or kill C'thun (that may be bad exapmle and some kind of example of what you wanted to have - boss that noone is able to kill) now compare it to ultimate boss of WotLK. See the difference?

Besides WoW suffers from what I would call crappy Game Master syndrome. I am relating to old RPG games.

The difficulty level thingy, well take current normal and heroic versions. Normal would be a level 1 difficulty on the counter, heroic would be level 4. In between there's two other difficulty levels, and after 4 there might be another couple.

It's not the best idea because you'd need several raid lockouts (or maybe make your 2nd save not award any loot at all) and the concept of alt-run testing pops up again.

But, I am 100% certain Blizzard will never go back to having a very small percentage of WoW players see the end-boss, so this would simply be a workaround that basis. There will not be another 2-month grind upto a tier end-boss, and there won't be another vanilla Naxx. They might introduce another SWP-type instance at the end of each expansion, but that's it.

vattghern
13-02-2010, 06:06 PM
Blizzard will nerf every encounter to help people see the end boss. Just like they did with patch 3.0. But then you know if you did it the pro way or the scrub way.

There will always be those braindead people unable to kill anything regardless of the difficulty level unless it's some sort of AoE bonanza, pushover bosses encounter design like heroics (yet some fail even that).

My point being. There is no skill requirement to reach level 80 and making the game more stupid (I do not mean more convenient - as it needed it in many aspects) and idiotensicher, as our German friends say, does not help at all. It will only make people even more lazy and braindead but with higher expectations as to what they should get for just entering the instance. We saw that happen and we see it happening just in front of our eyes.

Slicer
13-02-2010, 08:36 PM
Resilience will fix it.

Saha
13-02-2010, 09:09 PM
The difficulty level thingy, well take current normal and heroic versions. Normal would be a level 1 difficulty on the counter, heroic would be level 4. In between there's two other difficulty levels, and after 4 there might be another couple.

It's not the best idea because you'd need several raid lockouts (or maybe make your 2nd save not award any loot at all) and the concept of alt-run testing pops up again.

But, I am 100% certain Blizzard will never go back to having a very small percentage of WoW players see the end-boss, so this would simply be a workaround that basis. There will not be another 2-month grind upto a tier end-boss, and there won't be another vanilla Naxx. They might introduce another SWP-type instance at the end of each expansion, but that's it.

Remove heroic versions from 10 man (including fucking loottables with BiS or 2nd BiS items). Leave 10 mans for complete scrubs, 25 man for semi decent. Make 25 heroic hard. Simple.

They went for "we implement normal and hard mode to let everyone see content but to have hard encounters as well". Well guess what. 90% of hardmodes are a fucking joke and after defeating those joke hard modes scrubs start crying that those couple proper hard modes bosses are too hard and they get nerfed. Meanwhile hardcore people are forced to go to stupid 10 mans because Blizz tards somehow manage to put imba items in there. Fuck that.

Vegelus
13-02-2010, 11:20 PM
Meanwhile hardcore people are forced to go to stupid 10 mans because Blizz tards somehow manage to put imba items in there. Fuck that.
And removing 10man hard modes would help with that? Yea, dream more, because ilvl ever indicated which item is better (hai DST, Pocketwatch or ilvl100/115 guns in BT or Sunwell). You should be happy that BiSes are in 10mans. Moar chances for moar people to get them (2-3 instead of 1 each week?).

Flawless
13-02-2010, 11:39 PM
but it means having to do them to get them, which is time away from something else. Even if its just taking a break so you don't crack like some 90's stereotyped banker.

Exting
14-02-2010, 02:25 AM
The first time I saw Ragnaros was easily the best gaming moment i've ever had. Well killing him was but you know what I mean. Nothing in the game feels that epic anymore.


I can sort of understand where you're coming from here dan, It was the same reason i quit the game years ago. Burning crusade had not long been released and i had began levelling and got quite close to 70 around 68 or so before i threw in the towel. It just seemed to me like the game was becoming hard work more than fun, competitive to be the best instead of playing a game with mates to enjoy it. Yes i know i was never in a "hardcore" raiding guild and i pretty much never seen the top tiers of raiding but i did experience killing ragnoros in one of my first few MC runs which i have to agree was EPIC. The COI & Wrath of the game have organised groups of people who are tactical masters and will always progress quicker than the rest so for them the game maybe holds that bit of love due to being the best. Anyways before i go off topic the game for me died along time before WOTLK, it died when BC was released. I know alot of people will ask me how i can comment without experiencing the full BC or wonder why i'm bothering to comment.. I'm not going to answer either.

Chow.

Goonerr
15-02-2010, 07:26 PM
Blizz are obviously sliding and siding with the noobs, play eve if you want a more challenging game which involves using your brain... Blizzard arent going to change things now, too far gone.

If anything things will get easier and more dumbed down.

Wow is nothing like it used to be.

Chonsette
16-02-2010, 12:46 AM
Blizz are obviously sliding and siding with the noobs, play eve if you want a more challenging game which involves using your brain... Blizzard arent going to change things now, too far gone.

If anything things will get easier and more dumbed down.

Please stop posting, every time i check this site it's just bombarded with completely useless threads by you. Sure, every once and a while you'll link something worthwhile that more intelligent people will discuss further and mock everything else you decide to contribute to the thread.
I also can't be the only person that's tired of hearing your journey as a combat pilot in eve online.
Wow is nothing like it used to be.

You're right, but what exactly do you have to complain about?
From what I recall, you were never a hardcore raider and the main concern about wotlk is the disappointing end game for those players.

Currently yes, wow does cater to the casual and since i'm a casual, I think it's great.
If I want to raid, then I don't need to spend silly amounts of hours farming pots throughout the week (Anyone that was lucky enough to do Loatheb at 60 should be more than happy with this) if I want to raid more, there's the hard mode encounters which with some proper tuning should be great.

Pvp at 60 was just rubbish too. You more or less had to be in a premade to enjoy it and even then, you get to wait in a queue for an hour. The ranking system was also just poor, looking through the list of all the players that got to rank 14 and seeing them now is often comical. Yet I suppose Furious Gladiator Vinas proves that arena ratings don't mean much either.

Ruoste
16-02-2010, 10:55 AM
Only two guilds on SSE has done Alone in the Darkness (H) and three A Tribute to Insanity (25). Those still set apart the good from the rest. Very few will probably kill hard mode Lich King too. It's a bit shame though that the gear looks the same for all. Maybe there should be something more to distinguish the different level players.

I like the gate system because it cuts down how much you need to raid per week during learning periods. Limited attempts is a complete failure though. I also wouldn't say no to putting 10 and 25 man raids under the same lockout. The instances get boring fast when you have to clear them several times a week.

Ideal raiding in Cata for me would be:
- FIX THE LAG
- First raid instance opens a week after the launch. So you can, you know, enjoy the leveling content.
- Gated bosses when you start getting more challenging instances. First one will probably be easy one again.
- 10 and 25 raids under the same raid id and/or loot designed so that there are no BiS items in 10-man raids for 25-man raiders. Maybe remove the "badges" incentive too somehow.
- No limited attempts.
- Hard modes should be challenging.
- FIX THE LAG

I still like raiding and enjoy it more than in vanilla 40-man raids. Compared to now raiding in vanilla was terrible no matter how fondly I try to look back the good old times. The fights are getting a lot more interesting and some hard modes still offer challenges.

Soluna
16-02-2010, 12:26 PM
I don't understand why there seems to be so much complaining about BiS items from 10 man raiding.
Is it because 25 man raiders are such elitist jerks that they want to hoard it all for themselves? Or because they can't be arsed to fit 10 man raids into their busy schedules?

Surely it gives them something else to do.

It doesn't really matter where blizz puts the items, at least they are there. So what if more casual players are able to get them?

It just seems to me as though people want to segregate the game into scrubs and the elite. Surely the achievement system does that, like Ruo says, only 2 guilds on the server have some of the most challenging achievements. Isn't that enough?

Firesoul
16-02-2010, 01:13 PM
Going back to the OP. Flaw, I don't think there really is all that much hate for WotLK. That post just seems to be from another person in Wow that refuses to accept how progress in the game has evolved (devolved?) to guilds running alt-raids, to combat that stupid limited attempts feature.
It's a significantly better game than it ever was though, in my opinion, since I don't feel the need to log on for 18 hours a day just to prep for raiding in my average guild, or farm shit instances for months just to get the odd bit of gear. Wow was a life-killer, and now, I can happily say it isn't and I can just arse around on it and comfortably get myself up to a standard where most stuff is accessible to me.

Remove heroic versions from 10 man (including fucking loottables with BiS or 2nd BiS items). Leave 10 mans for complete scrubs, 25 man for semi decent.

That's just a poor, sweeping generalisation. The %age of BiS items that are in 10-man raiding is tiny compared to 25-man. Not only that, speak for yourself and how you play.
For me, there is one 10-man item that is BiS for my Pally's playstyle, and that's the heroic shield from Sindragosa. Other Pallies will probably go for the heroic shield from Marrowgar-25 (if it's accessible to them).
Also, remove heroic-mode from 10-man? I know several guilds that are dedicated 10-man raiding guilds. Why? Because they like to be small-knit, they don't like carrying players, they like low-key simple guild management, and they don't want to be involved in 25-man raiding any more.
However, these people are actually experienced and good players (most of them) and just constantly clearing ICC-10 on normal would turn them off from the game pretty quickly. 10-man heroic mode and the various achievements involved provide a good challenge to the average player, Saha. Just because not everyone's the god-awesome amazingly-astonishing player you are, doesn't mean that 10-man raiding's for scrubs.

Ruoste
16-02-2010, 01:41 PM
I don't understand why there seems to be so much complaining about BiS items from 10 man raiding.
Is it because 25 man raiders are such elitist jerks that they want to hoard it all for themselves? Or because they can't be arsed to fit 10 man raids into their busy schedules?
It has nothing to do with elitism or anything like that. It's really awesome that the instances are doable on all skill levels.

I feel it can be TOO much raiding when you are forced to run 10-man raids for loot even when you are clearing the 25-man version. It got slightly mind numbind to do Colisseum 4 times a week on one character (and more when you add pug/alt raids). Colisseum wasn't too bad yet since it's a short instance with no trash. Longer instances will get dull faster when you have to do them several times a week.

Saha
16-02-2010, 03:23 PM
10-man heroic mode and the various achievements involved provide a good challenge to the average player, Saha. Just because not everyone's the god-awesome amazingly-astonishing player you are, doesn't mean that 10-man raiding's for scrubs.

My problem with 10 mans is extremely simple. Why 25 man raider should be forced to run 10 mans to be successful 25 man raider? And don't give me shit about needing only 1 item. First of all, you have to run them for bloody badges/emblems, secondly, even if it's 1 item, dedicated players are still having to go there, week by week, month by month and hope that it drops. And finally, with implementation of attempts on bosses you certainly go to 10 mans to "learn" the boss to not waste 25 man attempts.
Secondly, 10/25 raiding system doesn't add up class/spec wise. It is huge pain in the arse to organize proper groups for 10 man with 25 raiding aimed guilds roster. You end up with either ~10 people sitting out (taking 30 raiders guild, which I believe is more or less average number for most 25s raiding guilds) or to bring in alt tanks/heals and run 3-4 groups to be able to drag all your DPSers through 10s that week. Bringing alts means you can't clear all 3-4 instances in one night since people can't attend two raids with 2 chars at once. So you end up having to dedicate two days to 10 man raiding. Furthermore, since you now have several people in guild running 10 mans twice a week + 25 man raid, raid instances get very tiresome very fast and burn people out.
Lastly, 25s raiding guilds being forced into 10s means there's double if not tripple amount of instance IDs opening and active each week. I'm quite sure that solving this nonsense would solve server lag stuff as well.

So, kindly, drop your stupidity with elitism. I'm not talking from that point, even if I possibly am expressing myself poorly. Fact is, 25s raiding guilds are FORCED to farm 10 mans, just like people were forced to farm bloody consumables. Only real difference is that it was on personal level and could have been achieved via various ways (AH, farm mats, set up gbank properly etc) in vanilla/early TBC opposed to current idiocy of 10s. Actually, instead of trying to bite you could have used your head like Ruo did and suggest a quite good solution. Same instance ID for 10 and 25 with PROPER loot tables.

Firesoul
16-02-2010, 06:14 PM
Funny how getting your back up makes you actually post something decent instead of the trash your previous post was.
And it did come across as elitist trash. The bull you spouted (no pun intended) at the end of your post was just pointless. Much better post though this second time round Saha. Well done.

I'll have to disagree with you on most of it though. If you look at it realistically - and I'm probably sticking my neck out here - but I've seen nothing in raiding ever to suggest that it's absolutely imperative that people farm every last bit and get every last item of upgrade possible. Needing the "best possible gear" to kill a boss isn't necessary - although I agree it helps (the only exception I have seen to this so far, is probably gonna be the Lich King. 100 million health? God...). My point is, you don't have to farm Frost badge gear to raid in 25-man ICC or to even prepare for heroic-mode. You said it yourself, heroic modes have been surprisingly easy - given how quickly guilds have swept through them once the Lich King's dead and given what's been said.

About your second point. The 10/25 imbalance has been an issue since the day it was announced before TBC even started and you're still bringing it up? I've yet to be in a guild where it's been a resounding headache for people to get 10-man raids together and for everyone to eventually take part in an effective raid. I think you're nitpicking a bit here.
I agree with you and Ruoste though that if I were running the same instance 4 times a week, I'd be exhausted and bored to death. I just don't think you're "forced" to do it, as you say. Well, I suppose you are these days if you want server firsts and be in the top world guilds, but that's a sacrifice you CHOOSE to make because you're a world top 100 guild and the server's number one guild. And seriously, having to invest a lot of time in the game in order to be the best at an aspect of it... why is that such a big deal? It just sounds a bit too close to a whine to me. If it was me, I'd just do what I need to do in order to... get what I want out of it. There. How vague was that? :P

About your last point. I didn't try to offer a solution since I disagreed with your argument in the first place...
But if you want a solution, how about this? Don't raid 10-man... Or even better, move to a low populated server where you won't get issues with too many raid IDs, as other guilds do.

Tarqy
16-02-2010, 08:15 PM
2 camels in a tiny car!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch#v=TbWEXb8TEsg&feature=related

Morilith
16-02-2010, 08:16 PM
But if you want a solution, how about this? Don't raid 10-man... Or even better, move to a low populated server where you won't get issues with too many raid IDs, as other guilds do.

Congratulations, you win the retard award.

Rukia
16-02-2010, 08:19 PM
blah blah blah blah blah

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2977/twaddle.jpg

Tarasín
16-02-2010, 08:24 PM
But if you want a solution, how about this? Don't raid 10-man... Or even better, move to a low populated server where you won't get issues with too many raid IDs, as other guilds do.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Goonerr
16-02-2010, 10:07 PM
Please stop posting, every time i check this site it's just bombarded with completely useless threads by you. Sure, every once and a while you'll link something worthwhile that more intelligent people will discuss further and mock everything else you decide to contribute to the thread.
I also can't be the only person that's tired of hearing your journey as a combat pilot in eve online.


You're right, but what exactly do you have to complain about?
From what I recall, you were never a hardcore raider and the main concern about wotlk is the disappointing end game for those players.

Currently yes, wow does cater to the casual and since i'm a casual, I think it's great.
If I want to raid, then I don't need to spend silly amounts of hours farming pots throughout the week (Anyone that was lucky enough to do Loatheb at 60 should be more than happy with this) if I want to raid more, there's the hard mode encounters which with some proper tuning should be great.

Pvp at 60 was just rubbish too. You more or less had to be in a premade to enjoy it and even then, you get to wait in a queue for an hour. The ranking system was also just poor, looking through the list of all the players that got to rank 14 and seeing them now is often comical. Yet I suppose Furious Gladiator Vinas proves that arena ratings don't mean much either.

I am deeply saddened and emotionally touched that you feel this way about seeing one of my threads/posts, please feel free to throw abuse at me as much as you like if it makes you feel any better.

Kind regards.

Yours, Gooner

Saha
16-02-2010, 10:23 PM
Funny how getting your back up makes you actually post something decent instead of the trash your previous post was. And it did come across as elitist trash. The bull you spouted (no pun intended) at the end of your post was just pointless. Much better post though this second time round Saha. Well done.

You sure sounded way more polite when applying to Wrath. Though you've been laughed at back then just like now, just to different reasons. Mostly due to applying to Wrath after 2-3 weeks of posting ave inspiring speeches on CoI forums about us, no-lifers. One would think people who diaf from SSE should forget old grudges but I guess you fall under same category as Trupi, Anthraxx, Svecho and bunch of other retards who only come here once in a blue moon to failtroll and present their old wounds. Have some self respect and stop making even bigger clowns out of yourselves.


I'll have to disagree with you on most of it though. If you look at it realistically - and I'm probably sticking my neck out here - but I've seen nothing in raiding ever to suggest that it's absolutely imperative that people farm every last bit and get every last item of upgrade possible.

Having such mindset just puts you into "we'll kill it eventually" category. That's one of the reasons you was never good enough.


Needing the "best possible gear" to kill a boss isn't necessary - although I agree it helps (the only exception I have seen to this so far, is probably gonna be the Lich King. 100 million health? God...). My point is, you don't have to farm Frost badge gear to raid in 25-man ICC or to even prepare for heroic-mode. You said it yourself, heroic modes have been surprisingly easy - given how quickly guilds have swept through them once the Lich King's dead and given what's been said.

Funny one. Top guilds farm the shit to get bleeding edge. "Months behind" guilds actually usually kill same bosses with way better gear than progression guilds due to lagging behind and acquiring loads of gear from new tier before progressing far into instance. In any case, gear plays major role for all types of raiding.


About your second point. The 10/25 imbalance has been an issue since the day it was announced before TBC even started and you're still bringing it up?

Stuff is wrong but it's been here for a while so it became fine. Wrong.


I've yet to be in a guild where it's been a resounding headache for people to get 10-man raids together and for everyone to eventually take part in an effective raid. I think you're nitpicking a bit here.

Getting 10 man raid together is not a problem. Getting 4-5 of them to run all your DPSers through is not a problem either. It is pain in the arse for those who "manage" the guild as well as it takes several days a week. Which, in my opinion, is not very good raiding system design.


I agree with you and Ruoste though that if I were running the same instance 4 times a week, I'd be exhausted and bored to death. I just don't think you're "forced" to do it, as you say. Well, I suppose you are these days if you want server firsts and be in the top world guilds, but that's a sacrifice you CHOOSE to make because you're a world top 100 guild and the server's number one guild. And seriously, having to invest a lot of time in the game in order to be the best at an aspect of it... why is that such a big deal? It just sounds a bit too close to a whine to me. If it was me, I'd just do what I need to do in order to... get what I want out of it. There. How vague was that? :P

And we are doing it. This doesn't makes us happy though. I don't see how pointing out flaws is whining however. I'll make an assumtion you'll come up with "why it's a flaw?". It's a flaw to force 25 man aimed raiding guild to spend almost as much time in 10 mans as in 25 mans, just because it drops badges and has 2 items that are wanted by majority of the raiders.


But if you want a solution, how about this? Don't raid 10-man... Or even better, move to a low populated server where you won't get issues with too many raid IDs, as other guilds do.

That's running away and pretending there is no problem, not solving it.

Soluna
16-02-2010, 10:33 PM
Wrath Patrol strikes again! Shame you lost such a good player when you turned down Firesoul, but I doubt he would have been happy with you guys seeing as though your OPINIONs differ so widely.

So much angst over people thinking differently, geez, if people thought the same there would be no wow for you guys to fight over anyhow.

Though I don't see how discussing 'flaws' on this forum is solving your problem either. Especially when it comes down to being offensive to people.

Saha
16-02-2010, 10:37 PM
Though I don't see how discussing 'flaws' on this forum is solving your problem either. Especially when it comes down to being offensive to people.

A fair point. Though it fits under "General WoW related chit chat" quite well.

Slicer
16-02-2010, 10:44 PM
Wrath Patrol strikes again! Shame you lost such a good player when you turned down Firesoul

No they didn't!

Flawless
16-02-2010, 10:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCiS5jiK96Q now in HD!

Firesoul
16-02-2010, 10:47 PM
Morreh/Tarasin, that stupid comment was intended sarcastically as I'd said above I didn't
think I should give a solution to what I don't think is even a problem.

If you want to make everything a personal attack on me, Saha, feel free. I couldn't care less. I quit any involvement in "hardcore raiding" a looooong time ago, so comments about me not being good enough (:P) or making insinuations about what kind of person I am.. *shrug* Go for it.
I'm really curious about your comments on me slagging off Wrath though... You've mentioned this before, and I'm surprised. Perhaps I've just forgotten such apparently shitty comments I made, but feel free to post screenies if they're lying around somewhere, since as far as I knew, I was on decent speaking terms with several people in your guild.

Anyway, I can sit here and just dissect every reply you've come out with as you've done with me, but I think we'll agree it just won't get us anywhere.

As it stands, the only credible response you came out with to anything I said was

Getting 10 man raid together is not a problem. Getting 4-5 of them to run all your DPSers through is not a problem either. It is pain in the arse for those who "manage" the guild as well as it takes several days a week. Which, in my opinion, is not very good raiding system design.

And that's not something I considered. So fair point. But I'll leave it at that, since anything I say against you will obviously be met with a wall of derision.

Firesoul
16-02-2010, 10:49 PM
No they didn't!

Nice how this has suddenly become a personal attack on me...

Saha
16-02-2010, 10:57 PM
We've already sent people with plastic forks after you.

AnteroVipune
17-02-2010, 03:47 AM
I have a credit card

Malakali
17-02-2010, 08:51 AM
I have a credit card

Does it have a lion on it? Or tiger?!

Über
17-02-2010, 12:31 PM
Does it have a lion on it? Or tiger?!

Or maybe a bear? Ancient news, I know but I still find it funny everytime I see one of those cards. Though trying to get one nowadays might get you into trouble. I guess someone at Nordea eventually noticed the high number of pedobear visa electron cards and did some backround research.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/pedo-card.thumbnail.jpg

Malakali
17-02-2010, 12:44 PM
A bear..hmm.

I give it 7/10 - Very good.

Gwynin
17-02-2010, 02:39 PM
If I knew how, I would actually try to order such a card from Nordea here in sweden :D

Anthraxx
17-02-2010, 03:45 PM
/snip/ One would think people who diaf from SSE should forget old grudges but I guess you fall under same category as Trupi, Anthraxx, Svecho and bunch of other retards who only come here once in a blue moon to failtroll and present their old wounds. Have some self respect and stop making even bigger clowns out of yourselves. /snip/

a) You kicked Trupi for some bullshit placeholder reason and now call him a retard? Please... He had some fun rubbing Bad Omen's Ulduar kills in your face, but man, you deserved it.

b) I visit almost daily, SSE is the only way to keep in touch with Vatt and some other Shadowsongians :) The moon isn't blue :>

c) Care to elaborate regarding my "old wounds" and retardation? This might be an interesting read.

Goonerr
17-02-2010, 05:31 PM
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2046/1265062189379.gif

Malakali
17-02-2010, 05:50 PM
Whale boy slides into this thread like superman.

Borwin
17-02-2010, 08:29 PM
I liked farming resistance gear =(

Will men in white robes come for me now?

Morilith
17-02-2010, 08:34 PM
...


Shut up, you're dogshit.

Tarasín
17-02-2010, 08:36 PM
.-.-.-.-.



Sorry, who are you XD?

Pherian
18-02-2010, 08:53 AM
I liked farming resistance gear =(

Will men in white robes come for me now?


They're still in the LFG queue looking for a Tank ^^

Anthraxx
18-02-2010, 09:06 AM
Shut up, you're dogshit.

If you have nothing smart to say just get the **** out, will you?

I thought you can do better than that. Guess it's Saha's radiance.

Tarasín
18-02-2010, 10:02 AM
If you have nothing smart to say just get the **** out, will you?

I thought you can do better than that. Guess it's Saha's radiance.

I thought his comment was fairly constructive. Question still remains. Who are you? What do you want here?

Anthraxx
18-02-2010, 10:23 AM
FYI, I played in Wrath during Ulduar and early ToC.
What do you want here?
Read my 1st post.

Morilith
18-02-2010, 02:13 PM
If you have nothing smart to say just get the **** out, will you?

I thought you can do better than that. Guess it's Saha's radiance.

Oh, but you forget the fun times we had in gchat. You know, when your combined shit attitude and rapist breathing on vent made me call you names. Those were good times.
Don't you have a new vent awaiting your pedophile gasping somewhere?

Now, you get out of my forums, you insignificant twat.

Theory
18-02-2010, 03:24 PM
"chips in"

Zéphyrine
18-02-2010, 04:05 PM
rapist breathing on vent

Ha! Classic. Carry on.

Anthraxx
18-02-2010, 05:12 PM
Oh, but you forget the fun times we had in gchat. You know, when your combined shit attitude and rapist breathing on vent made me call you names. Those were good times.
Don't you have a new vent awaiting your pedophile gasping somewhere?


I don't recall you "calling me names" or complaining about my voice on vent, but OK. Memoria fragilis est (Google it).

So called "shit attitude" came from somewhere, and I assure you, I wasn't the only one disappointed about the guild's performance/leadership at that time :)

Now, you get out of my forums, you insignificant twat.
How is that world top 300 coming along? Must feel kinda bad after such hype around Putricide kill, eh? :) . GJ on Marrowgar though. Excellent work from everyone involved, long may it continue.

PS. PM me for tips on Deathwhisper.

Morilith
18-02-2010, 06:08 PM
Memoria fragilis est (Google it).

It's called psychological repression. Google it?

How is that world top 300 coming along? Must feel kinda bad after such hype around Putricide kill, eh? :) . GJ on Marrowgar though. Excellent work from everyone involved, long may it continue.

Who knows, we might get sad enough to faction change for additional attempts.

Oh wait, rofl.

So, once again, get the fuck out.

vanroguesing
18-02-2010, 06:15 PM
whats happening here gais?!

Tarasín
18-02-2010, 06:27 PM
Even more bile

So you take a comment made to you and trying to troll whole of Wrath now? Very mature of you. But I'm sorry, you fail at trolling. Ill even PM a certification of how fail you do it if you like LOL XD c wut i did thar m9???

The mind boggles though. Why fail at trolling these forums when you have a new home to vent rape people at? Not enough minors on Mazrigos? You don't like your new friends? From what I understand here noone actually liked you. Except for your peers that ain't around no more?

*Awaits the next fail troll attempt* <--- LOL ROLEPLAY U LIEK XD?

Saha
18-02-2010, 06:53 PM
Leave it. He didn't understand back then, he will not understand it now either. There's no point going down to his level of retardation.
You have a lot to learn young trolls.

Goonerr
18-02-2010, 06:59 PM
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7403/1266517346278.jpg

Malakali
18-02-2010, 07:57 PM
I for one enjoyed reading what Morreh said while imagining him riping off his shirt.

vattghern
18-02-2010, 11:57 PM
As we all know arguments ad personam are the best. Not. That stuff slightly disgusts me.

Relating to someone writing something about people coming here and mocking Wrath I reckon it might have something to do with the goal of reaching World top 20-30 spot and the overall attitude. Food for thought.

Now that seriously deserves fiery retribution.

Tarqy
19-02-2010, 12:21 AM
PS. PM me for tips on Deathwhisper.

I've heard you use a voidwalker

http://us.media.blizzard.com/wow/anniversary/_images/ilovesc/gallery/full/17507.jpg

Anthraxx
19-02-2010, 09:02 AM
Very mature of you.

Expecting mature behaviour after calling someone "retard", "dogshit" and "insignificant twat"? :) Make sense for once, please.

From what I understand here noone actually liked you. Except for your peers that ain't around no more?

Of course no one did. Too bad you weren't so vocal back then. Oh, you needed me, now I get it. But as I'm gone it's FFA again, eh?

Damn whining about no attempts on Algalon 10 for 6 weeks, who could stand that? Or cries about Saha's awesome 4 healer setup later on. Mmm, good times.

I'm allergic to idiocy and unlike some I tend not to keep it to myself. Yeah, it makes my unpopular at times, but it's just my way ;>

@Tarqy - not quite ;-)

Anthraxx
19-02-2010, 12:15 PM
Dear Anthraxx,

Someone has tried to log into your account on Shadowsong Europe Forums with
an incorrect password at least 5 times. This person has been prevented from
attempting to login to your account for the next 15 minutes.

The person trying to log into your account had the following IP address:
80.160.75.130

All the best,
Shadowsong Europe Forums


http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5609/59355023.jpg

Go Tarashin, you can do it :D

Über
19-02-2010, 12:33 PM
Possible potential detected. This might even get interesting soon.

Gwynin
19-02-2010, 12:42 PM
ze illegal danish is here! :D


IP address [?]: 80.160.75.130 [Copy][Whois] [Reverse IP]
IP country code: DK
IP address country: Denmark
IP address state: Fyn
IP address city: Odense
IP address latitude: 55.4000
IP address longitude: 10.3833
ISP of this IP [?]: Tele Danmark
Organization: Odense tekniske Skole
Host of this IP: [?]: 0x50a04b82.unknown.tele.dk [Whois] [Trace]
Local time in Denmark: 2010-02-19 13:41

Flury
19-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Young hackers got much to learn.

Morilith
19-02-2010, 02:01 PM
HERP DERP

Once again, you are full of shit and too dense to even comprehend what's being said to you.

-I- am the one shitting on you, yet you try and turn the argument against the entire guild.

Yes, it's too bad the -guy who wasn't in the guild at the time you were in- wasn't vocal about your stupidity. Oh wait.

Now the question still remains, what exactly are you still doing here? Lawyering Trupi? I'm sure he can speak for himself. High fiving yourself for an amazing ability to jump ship? Good job, you win the prize.
You're not playing here, nobody gives a flying fuck about you or what you have to say, you're small and you're sad, in fact the only impact you had on this server was scarring the Wrath ventrilo for life with your heavy gasping.

I suggest you go and buy some anti-allergents and shove them down your throat before you choke yourself with your own swelling idiocy.

Theory
19-02-2010, 03:39 PM
this thread gets more fun by the minute

Über
19-02-2010, 04:07 PM
Yes, it's too bad the -guy who wasn't in the guild at the time you were in- wasn't vocal about your stupidity.

Hmm, so here we have two people bashing each other and they haven't even met each other? And the things Tarasín is saying is based just on hearsay from veteran members from Wrath? This most probably isn't a good thing for the drama since there will be few personal insults, if any.

And I thought this had potential. How silly of me.

P.S. Wrath, please recruit more members from Shadowsong so we could have some proper drama when they leave you. X-realm transfers don't have that much potential. :(

elog
19-02-2010, 04:29 PM
On topic again:

I am surprised no one has actually touched what I believe is the heart of the matter (apart from crappy server performance) - lack of content.

Blizzard's current strategy is to wrap everything in an envelope of 'everyone should be able to discover 100% of the game with reasonable effort' but in practice it is 'we will not invest in enough new content to satisy all of our players'.

So right now we have 10/10HC/25/25HC content with the same loot but slightly different stats and colours. Given the cash-flows they have I believe it is reasonable to demand that they create raid content for 10/25 in different flavors but where only the most dedicated will be able to kill all bosses. And that is ok. I honestly believe that the only split that is reasonable is the 10/25 split - that the same raid is accessible both in 10-man and 25-man format. If they created this amount of content killing boss X would actually mean something again.

Stabstalker
19-02-2010, 07:47 PM
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7302/tehlulzlulz.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/i/tehlulzlulz.jpg/)

soulshift
20-02-2010, 01:44 AM
So, after reading 9 pages mostly filled with crap, I remember why I never post here anymore.

Seriously, there's way too many people posting here with ego issues and acting tough online. What good will it do? :\
Oh great, you're better at PvE/PvP than someone else, or you denied someone or dislike someone. No need to act as if you're king of the world on here.

OT:

I've been seriously liking 25man raiding less and less, also due to my guild having recruitment problems for a while which lead to us falling behind quite a lot with general progress. But running the same place tons of times on 10 and 25man in a week just isn't amusing. I just do 10man runs most of the time now cause they're more entertaining right now than trying to keep making 25man raids. Especially with the current lag issues. I haven't had lag in 10man runs at all yet. >.>

Saha
20-02-2010, 11:20 AM
Hmm, so here we have two people bashing each other and they haven't even met each other? And the things Tarasín is saying is based just on hearsay from veteran members from Wrath?

Well there's this thing we do on vent now and then when someone forgets to stop pressing their push to talk button. 3-4 people start rapist breathing into their mics really hard. That, as well as quite negative memories about the personality from most of "oldies" makes him in a way quite known even among "younger" members who hang around on vent.

That being said, he's quite decent lock, but there's just limited amount of retardation one can take from someone who knows how to push 3-4 buttons and not diaf. Similar case to Trupi.

Goonerr
20-02-2010, 11:33 AM
So, after reading 9 pages mostly filled with crap, I remember why I never post here anymore.

Seriously, there's way too many people posting here with ego issues and acting tough online. What good will it do? :\
Oh great, you're better at PvE/PvP than someone else, or you denied someone or dislike someone. No need to act as if you're king of the world on here.

OT:

I've been seriously liking 25man raiding less and less, also due to my guild having recruitment problems for a while which lead to us falling behind quite a lot with general progress. But running the same place tons of times on 10 and 25man in a week just isn't amusing. I just do 10man runs most of the time now cause they're more entertaining right now than trying to keep making 25man raids. Especially with the current lag issues. I haven't had lag in 10man runs at all yet. >.>

If i could give reputation like on old forum i would, and it would be +

Firesoul
20-02-2010, 11:43 AM
there's just limited amount of retardation one can take from someone who knows how to push 3-4 buttons and not diaf. Similar case to Trupi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCiS5jiK96Q now in HD!

Guess it's not quite dying in a fire though, eh, Saha? :)

Bunneh
20-02-2010, 12:01 PM
Soulshift wins some cake and a gnome pie!

Saha
20-02-2010, 12:27 PM
Guess it's not quite dying in a fire though, eh, Saha? :)

Yes, you are quite right. Only few can be _that_ creative about wiping. And since I see this being linked over and over and over again. Yes, it's funny. Proley that's why we laughed on vent hysterically for 15 mins after and why it was uploaded and even put on our homepage for a while. So stop your pathetic attempts to bite me, it's not going to work, at least not with this stuff.

Über
20-02-2010, 12:33 PM
Seriously, there's way too many people posting here with ego issues and acting tough online. What good will it do? :\

Are you serious? It's the best thing we got here! I find this raging to be so amusing that I crave for it and shadowsongeurope.com, for some obscure reason, seems to provide it quite nicely. Besides that, there's only a few threads here that are relevant to my interests, which of course can partially be explained by the fact that I don't play wow anymore.

Well there's this thing we do on vent now and then when someone forgets to stop pressing their push to talk button. 3-4 people start rapist breathing into their mics really hard.

Hahah.

Firesoul
20-02-2010, 12:58 PM
So stop your pathetic attempts to bite me, it's not going to work, at least not with this stuff.

Pointing out you're a hypocrite is different to "biting". However, "biting" is all you and your little flame-warrior buddies seem to be capable of doing, unfortunately.

Saha
20-02-2010, 01:06 PM
Pointing out you're a hypocrite is different to "biting". However, "biting" is all you and your little flame-warrior buddies seem to be capable of doing, unfortunately.

Hypocrite? Go read what I posted. Slowly. Or stop being a tool.

valence
20-02-2010, 01:19 PM
oh no, did someone get upset for not being accepted in Wrath.

Firesoul
20-02-2010, 01:41 PM
*sigh* Don't flatter yourselves, by thinking I actually care about not getting into Wrath. It was a conversation I had once with one of your guild leaders a looooong time ago. During Sunwell, I think.
You seem to have some kind of misjudged glee over it, so really, wake up. :P

Stop operating under a misconception that the average player couldn't get into a high level raiding guild if they really wanted to, or chose to. High-level PvE raiding is STILL just an indication that you have more time to raid than anyone else. That's it. It's not an indication of skill level - and yes, Saha, I hate to bring it up yet again (seriously, I do), but that mistake by you is a prime example. It's not an indication of skill, because all it really involves is learning a process. Which as someone posted the other day, their 4-year-old could do.
I suppose you could raise achievements like Firefighter or Yogg-0 as an argument against that. But can you really say with a straight face that on those kills (as commendable as they are), EVERYONE that was in the raid had to be an amazingly skilful player or it wouldn't have happened? No, they just had to "know the fight".

I did read what you posted Saha, as my response should have made crystal clear. I quoted you and your comments about poor gameplay in others (or as you call it, "retardation"), and then I quoted the link to the video showing you playing poorly yourself. I'd say that constitutes hypocrisy. It's not a direct example, but close enough.

Sylfide
20-02-2010, 01:41 PM
oh no, did someone get upset for not being accepted in Wrath.

Mmm that fact got covered on page 4. Repeating stuff isnt that amusing ;)

Saha
20-02-2010, 01:52 PM
I did read what you posted Saha, as my response should have made crystal clear. I quoted you and your comments about poor gameplay in others (or as you call it, "retardation"), and then I quoted the link to the video showing you playing poorly yourself. I'd say that constitutes hypocrisy. It's not a direct example, but close enough.

Ahh, so it was you being a tool case.
Since you have now read it twice, you should have noticed me saying that Anth was actually quite decent lock and knew how to press 3-4 buttons and not diaf, just like Trupi. But both were retards and extremely annoying people. Yes, some retards are actually quite good players.
So, what has me joining the Cliff Jumpers Club, Anthrraxx being skilled but tool and hypocrisy to do here?


EDIT: Considering skill/time babbling. Just like in old days you have no fucking clue. Everyone makes mistakes and that is normal. Question how often you make mistakes. That multiplied by 25 means how long you spend on Boss encounter.
It's a very long ago and very well known fact that "weaker" guilds raid more overall. I was bored enough to open MSPaint. Enjoy and STFU on that dead topic already:

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/neestas/skilllol.jpg

Firesoul
20-02-2010, 02:00 PM
Yes, some retards are actually quite good players.


That in itself just shows why it's pointless trying to argue with you. You're a moron, and I give up on you. As thrilled as some people will be with this, I'm out (thank God).

Stabstalker
20-02-2010, 02:21 PM
High-level PvE raiding is STILL just an indication that you have more time to raid than anyone else. That's it.

Looks like our TBC progress was forgotten pretty quick eh

Slicer
20-02-2010, 02:44 PM
Stop operating under a misconception that the average player couldn't get into a high level raiding guild if they really wanted to, or chose to. High-level PvE raiding is STILL just an indication that you have more time to raid than anyone else. That's it. It's not an indication of skill leve

I think it was the clicking, keyboard turning and not having strafe keys bound that did it.

Goonerr
20-02-2010, 05:15 PM
Nobody keyboard turns you fucking ponce, that takes ages, nobody with half a brain would keyboard turn.

Smellyskele
20-02-2010, 05:34 PM
does touchpad turning count?

Tífa
20-02-2010, 05:43 PM
what about if you're eating a toffee and pecan cookie and have to keyboard turn :(

Rukia
20-02-2010, 06:01 PM
Stop operating under a misconception that the average player couldn't get into a high level raiding guild if they really wanted to, or chose to. High-level PvE raiding is STILL just an indication that you have more time to raid than anyone else. That's it. It's not an indication of skill level - and yes, Saha, I hate to bring it up yet again (seriously, I do), but that mistake by you is a prime example. It's not an indication of skill, because all it really involves is learning a process. Which as someone posted the other day, their 4-year-old could do.
I suppose you could raise achievements like Firefighter or Yogg-0 as an argument against that. But can you really say with a straight face that on those kills (as commendable as they are), EVERYONE that was in the raid had to be an amazingly skilful player or it wouldn't have happened? No, they just had to "know the fight".

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/424/1266418370661.jpg

Sylfide
20-02-2010, 06:04 PM
Somewhat unrelated but just curious. Who is your main Rukia? Just so I know if you are a spectator like me or involved in this drama somehow if only by guild association ;p

Vegelus
20-02-2010, 06:09 PM
You can say that from her posts, she's in Wrath:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadowsong&cn=Ruki

Sylfide
20-02-2010, 06:57 PM
I guessed it but wouldnt assume ;p

elog
21-02-2010, 11:49 AM
I've been seriously liking 25man raiding less and less, also due to my guild having recruitment problems for a while which lead to us falling behind quite a lot with general progress. But running the same place tons of times on 10 and 25man in a week just isn't amusing. I just do 10man runs most of the time now cause they're more entertaining right now than trying to keep making 25man raids. Especially with the current lag issues. I haven't had lag in 10man runs at all yet. >.>

Agree. And this can be summarized as I see it as 'lack of content'. Given the P&L of Blizzard it actually surprises me that they cannot create more raid/dungeon content than they do.

On the time issue: Skill is a hygiene factor for serious end-game raiding so time and guild leadership are the determinants. Time as in available time to sit in front of the computer. Guild Leadership as in keeping everyone in high spirits for all those hours together and making sure that the right strategy is applied in attempts.

Limited attempts on bosses was a good idea but not more than that - with 10/25 and alts available it became 'time' again and not that magic skill bullet it could have been (I have been thinking how to solve that but not found any good way around it unless a boss is only up between time X and Y every week early on).

Morilith
21-02-2010, 12:59 PM
So, after reading 9 pages mostly filled with crap, I remember why I never post here anymore.

Seriously, there's way too many people posting here with ego issues and acting tough online. What good will it do? :\
Oh great, you're better at PvE/PvP than someone else, or you denied someone or dislike someone. No need to act as if you're king of the world on here.

TLDR: I read someone getting flamed on the forums and wet myself.


After all, we all know how WoW forums are serious business, do we not?



Firesoul,

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/attempt_to_impress_ladies.jpg

Coven
22-02-2010, 03:10 PM
http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/attempt_to_impress_ladies.jpg

The man is a living god!!

Quite amusing. Helped pass a boring lunch break. Mwoar dramaz!

I still found the comments about any numpty able to get viable gear in here amusing too. Amazing how much of this is about how easy it is to get decent gear by way of badges. Who cares? Wasn't it Corey who used to PvP in green gear just to make a point? (even if Locks were one of the more OP PvP classes back then).

A decent guild, with decent players will progress quicker and further than mediocre or poor players in better gear. Gear helps, but skill helps more ("green gas = bad, move = good"). No amount of gear will save you if you stand still when you hear messages like "Come closer!"

I'm still convinced the issue is far more to do with players in top guilds wanting to be seen to be in top guilds (whether they'll admit that or not), much like back in Vanilla when T2 shoulders were teh sexeh and not many players outside of the better raiding guilds had access to them. I'm sure the hours long "just logging on to chat" in IF was more like "just logging on so people can inspect my uberness." If that helps validate any RL inadequacy issues, more power to you.

It may sting that any numpty can get a decent shoulder set fairly easily now compared to the time and gold expence of wiping. But big whoop. If you play for the "thrill" of raiding, gear is just a tool to progress rather than a sense of identity and status.

Trupiaczacha
26-02-2010, 03:41 PM
shame they did quit WoW :(

Hmmm interesting topic, but atm nothing interesting to read besaids few nice posts about game, rest is as always Wrath again someone, shit that is old and stupid. grow up kids.

anyway before you call someone retard be sure your own guild dont say same about you,
Mr. druid. You can call me that if it make your happy i dont rly care... its internet, nothing that is said here is taken seriously special in online games. But if you have balls to say it face to face then it will be "Fun". You was nice and good before you did join Wrath but then some elite shit did turn in you head especially on this forums.

Its shame that you cant see more as you nose sometimes and play a elite player that have nothing accomplished yet self. You forget what ppl did make "Wrath" possible (ofc its not me so you dont start here your pointles drama against me) this ppl are today very disappointed...
and shame that you did lose a few very good skilled ppl that today play in world top20 guilds (ofc its not me again so dont start it)

this "community" on this server is little strange it have 2 saids:
- you like Wrath your good.
- you dont like Wrath your retard.

anyway GL and nice to see some ppl in Wrath are still same and are nice and good and you can talk with then for hours.

Shiverchill
26-02-2010, 03:50 PM
I dont think its an issue of "i like / dislike wrath, therefore im good/crap".
Its a matter of opinions - i for one agree with the retardedness of the "splitting raids into 10/10hc/25/25hc" idea.

Best way would be what saha suggested some pages back - 10man is heroic for 10 people (read UBRS), 25man is a semidecent raid (read ZG/MC), and 25hc is hardcore endgame (read SWP). And no nerfs please.

There will ALWAYS be "scrubs" (im quoting, not adding this from my own), who cant do hardmode raids, but they want to see the encounters. let them - in an easy instance that doesnt tax hardcore raiders

On current par, ICC10 is ZG, ICC10hc is AQ20, ICC25 is MC/BWL, ICC25hc is aq40/nax

Did people who raid AQ40/nax need things from aq20 or zg? Never.
Did people who raid ZG/AQ20/MC whine that nax is too hard? nope, they never saw it


There should be a clear distinction between who should raid what. If you have 25 dedicated people who stand a chance against hardmode heroic 25, why would they also need to spend ages wiping/learning/killing 10man encounters as well?

In short, no, the system is not ideal. Far from it. And im pretty sure a lot of people in this thread would have done a better job of making a raiding system than what blizz has done.

Shame we arent blizz tho

Trupiaczacha
26-02-2010, 04:00 PM
I dont think its an issue of "i like / dislike wrath, therefore im good/crap".

Well you dont but most posts in this topic are so :(


Its a matter of opinions - i for one agree with the retardedness of the "splitting raids into 10/10hc/25/25hc" idea.

Best way would be what saha suggested some pages back - 10man is heroic for 10 people (read UBRS), 25man is a semidecent raid (read ZG/MC), and 25hc is hardcore endgame (read SWP). And no nerfs please.

There will ALWAYS be "scrubs" (im quoting, not adding this from my own), who cant do hardmode raids, but they want to see the encounters. let them - in an easy instance that doesnt tax hardcore raiders

On current par, ICC10 is ZG, ICC10hc is AQ20, ICC25 is MC/BWL, ICC25hc is aq40/nax

Did people who raid AQ40/nax need things from aq20 or zg? Never.
Did people who raid ZG/AQ20/MC whine that nax is too hard? nope, they never saw it


There should be a clear distinction between who should raid what. If you have 25 dedicated people who stand a chance against hardmode heroic 25, why would they also need to spend ages wiping/learning/killing 10man encounters as well?

In short, no, the system is not ideal. Far from it. And im pretty sure a lot of people in this thread would have done a better job of making a raiding system than what blizz has done.

Shame we arent blizz tho

Well i can agree on this... but as Rouste said its way better as it was in vanila but still not perfect for "use".
I like this 10 mans 25 mans etc, but maybe remover HC from 10 man and make HC of 25 little more harder, but then again raiding back there in past was way different game was different and cant compare this tings anymore.

all ppl that play this game should see all dungens and "final" bosses. TBC was not so good at it. Making HC they did go in good way maybe they will fix it and make HC harder for this 1% of players and rest will play in normal all time, who knows...

Vegelus
26-02-2010, 05:46 PM
Did people who raid AQ40/nax need things from aq20 or zg? Never.
Of course they did, you've just forgot how it looked back then. And you know what? They needed MC and BWL too.

The only (or probably the biggest ones) problems here are:
1. Item designing team, that fails since beta.
2. Badges system in ToC/ICC, which was a bit better in Naxx/Ulduar (10mans giving other badges than 25mans, not counting U10 hard).

Über
26-02-2010, 05:57 PM
Did people who raid AQ40/nax need things from aq20 or zg? Never.
Of course they did, you've just forgot how it looked back then.

Indeed they did. (Though being able to get gear upgrades from ZG/MC/BWL/AQ20/AQ40/Naxx was just as horrible as it sounds. Generally atleast.)

Vegelus
26-02-2010, 06:38 PM
Well, min-maxing prot warriors that thought about EH and threat were running ZG for half or more of TBC. And, of course, they would run MC and BWL till some gear upgrades from SSC.

Flawless
27-02-2010, 03:30 PM
from the QA


Q. How do you feel about the limited attempts mechanic that has been use in Trial of the Crusader and Icecrown Citadel?
A. We're not crazy about how they worked out. They were designed in essence to save players from themselves. In the past, some people would make 400+ attempts on new bosses. That's not healthy and at some point you're not measuring skill but tenacity. Yet, that's not what happened. Guilds just made alts to get around the limitations, and things like disconnects and accidents make losing an attempt really frustrating. We like gating because if nothing else it lets the community focus on more than just the final boss in the zone. If we do limited attempts again it would probably be limited to optional bosses like Algalon.


Rest is on MMO-C

Coven
08-03-2010, 02:01 PM
Blizz just wants as many people as possible to see the content they have created for us. Otherwise, it would be like buying the LOTR DVD box set and never watching the end due to being told it was only available to customers with HD ready TVs and DVD players with an HDMi cable :P

There's lots of lore in game that those who play for the lore would never get to experience, and I can't blame Blizz for reaching out to those customers.

But I agree, that can be dealt with in a 10-25 man (normal) capacity.

To continue my film analogy:

10-man = LOTR box set
(for people that just want to be entertained for a few hours)

25-Man = LOTR Extended edition box set
(for closet geeks who like films and read LOTR)

25-man HC = LOTR Extended edition box set, cast and crew commentary + online discussion forum on why dwarves are > elves.
(for the geek and proud LOTR addicts who dress up at weekends ;) )

Bunneh
08-03-2010, 02:49 PM
LOTR Extended edition box set - I has that! They're lovely boxes and I stroke them every day! I have the books too.

Shiverchill
09-03-2010, 06:21 AM
Filthy Hobbitses! They stole our precioussssss....
But we will takes it back, yes we will! We waits for them hobbitses to turn their backses on us, yes, and we stab them and take our precious back!

Backupo
09-03-2010, 07:05 PM
Not to derail this thread but as an observer, what did this Anthrax do to be deemed a 'retard' beyond breathing heavily on a microphone?

As in, clear examples such as 'one time Anthrax played Duran Duran down Vent whilst talking about how great white suits, Thatcher and the Sinclair C5 were. In addition to this, he ran into a wall in-game, causing the entire raid to wipe.'

Clínt
09-03-2010, 11:09 PM
Not to derail this thread but as an observer, what did this Anthrax do to be deemed a 'retard' beyond breathing heavily on a microphone?

As in, clear examples such as 'one time Anthrax played Duran Duran down Vent whilst talking about how great white suits, Thatcher and the Sinclair C5 were. In addition to this, he ran into a wall in-game, causing the entire raid to wipe.'

I REALLY hope thats what actually happened!

Anthraxx
10-03-2010, 08:01 AM
How is Duran Duran gay?? Fuck you (and your standards).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo6iwTRLy94