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Turiel
19-11-2009, 04:46 AM
A few weeks in between wings opening... ouch! So this is how ICC is planned to last till Cataclysm :P.

Limited attempts, a little ouchy, but okay.

And then nub-buffs after a few months, heh :P


Icecrown Citadel testing has been progressing very well over the last few weeks, and this has been a huge help to the encounter design team. We want to thank everyone who has logged onto the PTR and tried the encounters there.

As we're now getting closer to the release of 3.3.0, we wanted to talk about our plans for access progression within Icecrown Citadel. Icecrown Citadel is going to be broken up into four distinct sections: The Lower Spire, Plagueworks, Crimson Hall, and Frostwing Halls. We plan on releasing these four sections of Icecrown Citadel over time and not all immediately when patch 3.3.0 goes live. At this point we can't give precise dates for these release dates as they are determined by when patch 3.3.0 goes live. Once dates are known with more certainty, I'll update the community so they can plan appropriately.

The first section that opens will include the Lord Marrowgar, Lady Deathwhisper, Icecrown Gunship Battle, and Deathbringer Saurfang encounters. Progress beyond that point will be prevented for several weeks. Then the Plagueworks will open with Rotface, Festergut, and Professor Putricide becoming available. After another period of time, the Crimson Hall will open and you can then fight the Blood Princes and Blood-Queen Lana'thel. The final Frostwing Halls unlock then occurs after that, making Valithria Dreamwalker, Sindragosa, and the Lich King available. We believe a staggered release of the content will allow players to experience Icecrown Citadel at a sustainable, measured, and ultimately more enjoyable pace.

There are other elements that gate access along the way. Players may not attempt any Heroic versions of 10 player encounters until they have defeated the Lich King in a 10 player raid. Similarly, players must defeat the Lich King in a 25 player raid before they can attempt a Heroic 25 player encounter. So players must master every normal difficulty encounter in Icecrown Citadel before attempting Heroic difficulty.

The Lich King may not be attempted until Professor Putricide, Blood-Queen Lana'thel, and Sindragosa are defeated. Furthermore, the Heroic difficulty of The Lich King encounter may not be attempted in any week unless the three aforementioned encounters have been defeated in Heroic difficulty that week.

The Ashen Verdict provides reinforcements and material for players to assault Icecrown Citadel, but this support is not endless. Raids will have a limited number of attempts total each week to defeat the four most difficult encounters in Icecrown Citadel: Professor Putricide, Blood-Queen Lana'thel, Sindragosa, and the Lich King. As these boss encounters are unlocked, the number of attempts available per week will increase. The initial number of attempts provided for defeating Professor Putricide is only five. When Blood-Queen Lana'thel unlocks, the amount of total attempts remaining will increase to 10. Then when Sindragosa and the Lich King unlock, 15 total attempts will be available to defeat all four bosses. After a raid has exhausted their attempts for the week, the Ashen Verdict must withdraw their support and the four most difficult bosses all despawn and become unavailable for the week. The limited attempt system is a feature of both Normal and Heroic difficulty.

There will be no explicit rewards for defeating the Lich King with a specific number of attempts remaining as there was with Trial of the Grand Crusader. There will also not be an achievement to complete Icecrown Citadel without being defeated by a boss encounter, or letting a raid member die. (i.e. A Tribute to Insanity).

In the weeks and months after all twelve encounters are unlocked, additional attempts against the final four boss encounters become available. This represents the Ashen Verdict growing more powerful and gaining a stronger foothold in Icecrown Citadel. To further help raids, Varian Wrynn and Garrosh Hellscream will begin to provide assistance by inspiring the armies attacking Icecrown Citadel. This is represented as an additional zone wide spell effect applied to all players that will increase their hit points, damage dealt, and healing done. This effect will also increase in effectiveness over time. Players may opt out of the spell's effect if they so wish.

Metakerk
19-11-2009, 08:00 AM
So this is how ICC is planned to last till Cataclysm

Exactly!
To me it's a really dodgy way to make 'hardcore' progression go in a certain way. Making bosses 'harder' by giving limited attempts to remove them later again, keeping a tight progression path so that everyone kills the same thing at the same time and not have Ulduar 2.0. It seems a bit of a workaround/band-aid to me.

Faylin
19-11-2009, 08:58 AM
It's not much different from nerfing bosses after the hardcore guys have defeated them, is it?

Senex
19-11-2009, 09:27 AM
If "it's stupid, but it works", it's not stupid.

zerotaste
21-11-2009, 12:13 AM
Quality raiding over quantity raiding.

Ring0
21-11-2009, 05:20 AM
If quality equals tank DC's messing your week up like in Colliseum then I do not approve. At least no pressure for nailing it on the first try with regards to getting people BiS cloaks.

Saha
21-11-2009, 02:30 PM
Exactly!
To me it's a really dodgy way to make 'hardcore' progression go in a certain way. Making bosses 'harder' by giving limited attempts to remove them later again, keeping a tight progression path so that everyone kills the same thing at the same time and not have Ulduar 2.0. It seems a bit of a workaround/band-aid to me.

I don't see why you should be complaining. If anything, you have a chance to kill said bosses "closer" to top guilds.

On more serious note, I'll copy paste what I posted on Wrath forums:
Christmas, New Year, Exams. Hard modes = bad.

And they need it on shelves for new year sales. Simple reason why such gating is implemented. Basically, during all this shitty for raiding period decent guilds will need like 2-3 days a week to clear existing content. You get new content, yet you're not fucked by people having exams or getting drunk. After all festives are over, you get hard modes.

Yes, yes, I know blue babbling about it being 1 month+ till release. That's bullshit. It's coming on 15th with 2nd wing open on 5th.

Vegelus
21-11-2009, 02:41 PM
Bullshit is talking about Blizz and new year sales in the same sentence. Just look at their publishing history.

Saha
21-11-2009, 03:05 PM
Yes, because it's a well known fact that people and companies who have a lot of cash do not care about profits.

"It's out when it's done" is the most simplistic marketing bullshit.

Turiel
21-11-2009, 04:28 PM
Well the point was they could have had expansions out for Xmas but didnt, they arrived after.

Vegelus
21-11-2009, 04:42 PM
Well the point was they could have had expansions out for Xmas but didnt, they arrived after.

Exacly. Blizzard makes their own holidays with adequate sales when they publish their new title / expansion. They don't need any real holidays for that.

Saha
21-11-2009, 09:42 PM
Newsflash. Icecrown is not expansion.

Alverion
21-11-2009, 10:43 PM
You were the one talking about sales. Newsflash, Icecrown is not being sold. Content patches are not what drive revenue.

Saha
21-11-2009, 11:01 PM
Haha, you'll certainly see no "HAI LOOK ARTHAS" adverts when IC is out. Seriously, start using brain.

Vegelus
21-11-2009, 11:03 PM
Newsflash. Icecrown is not expansion.
Still, It's still Blizzard. They controll the hype and make their own holidays, as usual.

Saha
21-11-2009, 11:05 PM
Still, It's still Blizzard. They controll the hype and make their own holidays, as usual.

A living proof blizzard marketing team is successful.

Maybe I should edit and explain myself a bit better, to sound less "dickhead" for once.

0 of big WoW releases were properly polished. Constant need of patches which changed game mechanics/class balance after all expansions or major content patches within first 2-4 weeks.
There never were any proper "pushbacks" to polish stuff.
Release dates always fitted extremely well with most profitable "sales" times. And I don't mean they make profits from selling a game copy, no. It's connected to renewed subs and new subs.
Hell, just take a simple look of "initial hype" of LOTRO, Conan, Warhammer, Aion fading time and Blizzards WoW content release times.

Blizz does give a shit when to release stuff. Marketing is the biggest part why WoW is such a successful product.

Metakerk
22-11-2009, 02:29 PM
I don't see why you should be complaining. If anything, you have a chance to kill said bosses "closer" to top guilds.

I'll try and make it more straightforward. I don't give a shit about killing bosses "closer" to top guilds. If I wanted to kill bosses fast, I'd make time and apply to some top guild. (That's meant confident instead of arrogant.)

My point is; We get winged instances and (for progression guilds) fairly easy to kill normal mode bosses. The prerequisite for doing certain hardmodes/bosses (Algalon) is doing other hardmodes. When there's no straight progression path (which is completely fine with me) and the bosses are blown over like that by those kind of guilds, there's going to be a, to me, strange discrepancy between guilds. Not so much in their skill in defeating a boss as fast as possible, but in the choices of killing order they make and the result of that.

The (in)famous Ulduar example (and no, this is no fanboyism) is our well beloved Ensidia that decided to kill Hodir hard after rushing for Yogg, finding him buffed to disproportional levels. Other progression guilds had killed the boss in hardmode before them, in his original state, which gave them their keypart to unlocking Algalon, whereas 'other guilds' were reaching for 'clever use of game mechanics' because they made another decision in their killing order. 'Bad luck'.

I don't mean to discuss this Ensidia thing, what I'm merely trying to say is that I think, if progression is winged, the bosses should not be able to be 'pushed' over (by these topguilds), when afterwards some external game mechanic has to prevent these same top guilds from defeating the final bosses in the instance too fast.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing that they try to implement things to make raiding more challenging, I just feel that the way it's being done now is dodgy.
You don't make the boss hard, you make the external factors harder (i.e., amount of attempts) and weaken that during following weeks.

Metakerk
22-11-2009, 03:12 PM
Meh, re-reading this, concluding it's very poorly constructed. Hope that the point's clear.

Saha
22-11-2009, 03:18 PM
Number of attempts set is a good thing in my opinion (obviously not 5/15 like they promise in IC).

Hodir hd thing was same as Yogg+0, XT hd, Ignis in my opinion. Simply put, those encounters were not tested properly/ready to go live.

Zyxtia
23-11-2009, 04:09 PM
I find this to be quite interesting tbh. Tho only time etc will tell if Blizzard fails or not with this release.

Feihcretsam
25-11-2009, 07:48 AM
Just play the game ladies