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Faylin
03-11-2009, 09:58 AM
..or at least, this ignorant Death Knight seems to think so:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-death-knight/is-elitist-jerks-wrong-for-a-change-(regarding-unholy-dps)/

Thread gets interesting later on: Ensidia feral get's banned from EJ for being a complete arse (basically saying "your theorycrafting sucks, period.") and comes to defend himself in this MMO thread. Proof why being in a high end guild doesn't equal smart.

Anyway, though it was an amusing read.

Metakerk
03-11-2009, 10:20 AM
Heh, was reading that myself as well, quite a fun read indeed. That Tun has had some more issues, he was for instance on MMO-Champ insulting people that bullied Ensidia back when Exodus had their fake Yogg+0 kill (before it was known that they cheated).

Slicer
03-11-2009, 11:04 AM
Ensidia have never been the brightest at theorycrafting. If you looked at any of them back in Nihilum days, none of their rogues had a clue how to gem or gear. Time spent on something doesn't mean they're in any way good.

I mean, when have you ever seen a parse of Ensidia DPS being top in the world? In fact, when have you ever seen one at all? :P

dantheman
03-11-2009, 11:37 AM
True, but Ensidia must be doing something right. Actions speak louder than words etc.

elog
03-11-2009, 11:52 AM
And even though he is an arse when it comes to attitude I must give him to be right in that thread. He is basically saying that a DPS value from a 100% static fight is useless if some of the options you go for actually in reality lowers your DPS when movement, stuns/silence/interrupts and target switching comes into play.

Vegelus
03-11-2009, 12:14 PM
And even though he is an arse when it comes to attitude I must give him to be right in that thread. He is basically saying that a DPS value from a 100% static fight is useless if some of the options you go for actually in reality lowers your DPS when movement, stuns/silence/interrupts and target switching comes into play.
He didn't say that actually (if you're speaking about Tun). He simply didn't belive that 2-3 upgrades would boost his dps for around 1k. And he's using static fight: "(not changing target)".
edit: Noticed from some later posts in that MMO thread that he was true in some part of his statement (wrong ArP formulas I suppose?). Well, still don't blame EJs for banning him. No proofs, no solid numbers, nothing. And his attitude.


Just like someone wrote on MMO: you need to use EJ wisely, as quite a big tool, but not an oracle. Bit difficult to search for some bits of information nowadays, because of it's current popularity and all those posts "is x better than y?", "what is hit/haste/arp/shit cap?". That's main reason they started infracting and banning people.

I found that hunter community (and their work) out there is good, but that might be because of all those hunters posting on EJs are/were posting on other hunter communities (Petopia, TKASomething, or WoW boards in vanilla, where Lactose started pointing out all critical flaws of hunters' mechanic). While I remember all the useless shit posted in Ensidia/Nihilium guides in TBC.
On the other hand I don't use EJs for information about prot warriors and/or tanking, because of TankingTips and TankSpot.

Haplo
03-11-2009, 03:15 PM
dps wont get you world 1st kills. So maybe he sucks in math, as long as he stays alive to dps longer.

Notafama
03-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Tun is just another person no one used to give a flop about until the whole Ensidia thing came along.

The fact that he fails at trolling is another subject.

Elitist Jerks is just another WoW Community that's good at what they are doing, discussing WoW related mechanics and maths.

Windcape
04-11-2009, 04:55 PM
The fact that he fails at trolling is another subject.Tun don't troll. If you ever meet him IRL, you would know :D

And yes, I understand why he don't give a shit about EJ, during Ulduar he did 2000 dps more than possible according to EJ theory. The EJ simulators, like FeralByNight, is a total joke, just look at the bloody source.

Anyway, Tun is a bit of a personality, but he's incredible skilled in how he plays, and always good fun.

Elitist Jerks is just another WoW Community that's good at what they are doing, discussing WoW related mechanics and maths.The problem is their math is often wrong, and the authors of the simulators have zero experience with real programming, and most of them don't have any idea whatsoever about doing proper maths.

And if you need a degree in calculus to play Feral Druid, something's just wrong.

It's interesting how the people in the best guilds, who does the best dps, and progress fastest, often don't give a shit about theorycrafting. And yet people don't respect their opinions, because they strive against their numbers.

Notafama
04-11-2009, 08:43 PM
It's intresting that everytime someone says something about Ensidia you show up Nezoia.

Faylin
05-11-2009, 12:28 AM
Tun don't troll. If you ever meet him IRL, you would know :D

....

Anyway, Tun is a bit of a personality, but he's incredible skilled in how he plays, and always good fun.

You are using the same flawed logic to defend your friend as he did in named thread, namely: none at all. Things aren't as they are because they are.

He may very well have had a point, and I can only he assume he is a very skilled player, but that doesn't make everything he says right, nor does it free him from backing up his claims.

So yes, he was very much trolling.

Windcape
05-11-2009, 06:33 PM
The point is that neither Tun or I need to justify anything.

If his advice makes you do more dps, even it's opposite to what EJ says, then I see no reason why you would want to stick to the lesser EJ information, just because it's "OMG MATH PROOF".

Reality check, knock! knock! This is World of Warcraft. The fact you find a need for a flawed 4000 lines single-file-c-code-simulator, to play your class, is rather sad.

Alverion
05-11-2009, 06:52 PM
Hey, you're just as retarded as we all remember!

You can't argue with me, because what I say is fact, if you try to disagree and bring proof that you aren't in fact utterly fucking retarded then I will simply disagree, and utilising Tuns fantastic logical model you will always be a retard, for now and forever.

The fact you ever needed to find out hit cap, exp cap, soft/hard armpen cap from anywhere, to play your class, is rather sad.

P.S. Those figures are largely thanks to EJ and the community of theorycrafters around it whose simulators and hardwork allowed them to figure these things out, if you are using any of that information in order to play with any degree of competency (and given your idea of a reality check I find this doubtful) then you are as hypocritical as Tun is.

Slicer
05-11-2009, 07:12 PM
Windcape, server jumping since the service became available.

Windcape
05-11-2009, 08:00 PM
Windcape, server jumping since the service became available.Absolutly!

But hey, at least I got a fancy ride!

vanroguesing
05-11-2009, 08:32 PM
zOmg this could get interesting off to get some popcorns!

vattghern
05-11-2009, 09:54 PM
Fanboys...

Flawless
05-11-2009, 10:15 PM
http://images.ukcs.net/12145/1257383053660.png

Metakerk
05-11-2009, 10:56 PM
Bring more dramahz.

dantheman
05-11-2009, 11:10 PM
http://images.ukcs.net/12145/1257383053660.png

kek

Thordyn
06-11-2009, 12:31 AM
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2008/09/08/tommyleejones460.jpg

Ring0
06-11-2009, 01:16 AM
http://www.shadowsongeurope.com/forum/[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Ring0/automotivator.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Ring0/automotivator.jpg

Fnurgle
06-11-2009, 07:58 AM
If his advice makes you do more dps, even it's opposite to what EJ says, then I see no reason why you would want to stick to the lesser EJ information, just because it's "OMG MATH PROOF".


Do you have a source for him doing 2000 more dps than what was claimed to be theoretical max in Ulduar? I don't follow feral threads, and I acknowledge there might be faults on EJ pages. But this sounds very unlikely to me.

And EJ is not about OMG MATH PROOF. It is not about anyhting posted there being the ultimate truth. Even if you're not from the academic world yourself, you might want to read up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review for example. This is what EJ is about. Making claims that meet basic scientific standards, publishing them on the forums to be reviewed by other players with a goal to better the collective knowledge about WoW mechanics. Hand waving and making claims that cannot be properly scrutinized is not welcome there. If someone posts "Do this and that, and dps will increase", it is very easy to verify, and no OMG MATH PROOF is needed. But this is not how this troll is posting, from the few excerpts I've read.

Windcape
06-11-2009, 09:49 AM
Ghostcrawler (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/20677235429-infernal-cooldown-lol.html)

The John Madden thing for Feral is not an excuse to let their dps be high. The actual point is that there is a wide margin between theoretical Feral dps as told by a simulator and actual Feral dps. We balance around the real numbers, not the theoretical maxima. Feral druids do great on bosses that don't require any movement or re-targeting. There are plenty of bad druids too, just as there are plenty of bad warlocks.

And if I, as a experienced software developer, were to give a peer review of FeralByNight, it wouldn't be a positive one. Yet EJ people don't care about such critics, as soon as a product is being populare (and popularity do exist on EJ), then it's suddenly not allowed to complain about it anymore.

Sure, Tun didn't supply a mathematical model of damage increase over ArP increase, to supply his argument for testing with Banner of Victory, but why would he have to? It's up to the developers to realise it's a valid suggestion, from a very experienced player.

When Martin Fowler talks about patterns, we listen. A lot of other authors disagree with him, but we still listen to his works, since he's a experience person on the topic of design patterns. However, he's not a scientist, and don't do much new research. He applies a world perspective to the existing research, and improve/complain as he sees fitting.

Not to mention, writing a simulator in a non-functional language is absurd. The reason they write it in C/C++ (Or attempt to write it in C#, like RAWR), is because the developers aren't mathematicans, and most of them not educated in such techniques from classical computer science.

Otherwise, Haskell, Erlang or ML/OCalm (Possible F#), would been the language of choice.

Fnurgle
06-11-2009, 10:34 AM
I only read a select few threads outside the Benefactor's Bar, but in there when FBN has come up the general consensus is that it's a piece of shit software that doesn't lend itself well to verification. So I don't think criticism against this software is ignored the way you make it out to be. But I suppose there are different cliques around that forum as well.

On that subject, EJ, just like other forums, have hordes of idiots that don't understand what they are looking at. What's different from WoW forums or tankspot or other popular sites is that they are being called out on it at EJ forums. Many people are not used to this, and many react badly about it. Anyone can spend some time in The Banhammer to see what kind of response the moderators get.

Vegelus
06-11-2009, 10:45 AM
Retard alert once again.

You seem to do not understand what GC meant there. Not like you would ever be able to.
But I'll let Alv or/and Slicer explain it, they'll do that much better.

Windcape
06-11-2009, 12:21 PM
You seem to do not understand what GC meant there. Not like you would ever be able to.Yes, because it's so totally hard to understand that he's once again, pointing out that simulators aren't reality.

While it's out of context of his post, the quote is still justified, in the way it reminds people that the only true WoW simulator is the game itself.

So I don't think criticism against this software is ignored the way you make it out to be.Considering how much FBN have developed the past year, I'd say it could use more badmouthing.

What EJ should bloody well remember is what most people take EJ information as a seal of approval. As long as FBN is allowed to remain on the EJ forums as it is now, people will accept whatever information they get out of it.

Hopefully, Cataclysm won't be long, and then we'll no longer need stupid mathematical models to calculate if ARP is better than AP.

hits
06-11-2009, 01:22 PM
Retard alert once again.

You seem to do not understand what GC meant there. Not like you would ever be able to.
But I'll let Alv or/and Slicer explain it, they'll do that much better.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/f/f7/Trool.gif

Alverion
06-11-2009, 06:02 PM
Sure, Tun didn't supply a mathematical model of damage increase over ArP increase, to supply his argument for testing with Banner of Victory, but why would he have to? It's up to the developers to realise it's a valid suggestion, from a very experienced player.

When Martin Fowler talks about patterns, we listen. A lot of other authors disagree with him, but we still listen to his works, since he's a experience person on the topic of design patterns. However, he's not a scientist, and don't do much new research. He applies a world perspective to the existing research, and improve/complain as he sees fitting.


Except Martin Fowler has provided evidence and research for nearly everything he has done, he has been on a ridiculous amount of committees that have been devoted to UML and development so his books bring with them evidence, proof, citations and similar. Tun brought "I know better simply because". See the difference?

Windcape
06-11-2009, 06:33 PM
But in World of Warcraft, field-experience by being in a world top guild, should also count as research.

When random nobodies disagree with the experience, and refuse to test the posted scenario, because they believe it's to absurd to be right (and later found out, they were wrong), and even starting banning people for disagreeing with the logic of their simulator, the is something seriously wrong.

So EJ can indeed suck. And perm banning a top player for giving what should be a valueable opinion, isn't the way to go.

In the end the result reflect a matter of opinions. The community is different than 2-3 years ago, and there's no longer a absolute neeed to visit EJs public discussion forums.

Slicer
06-11-2009, 07:41 PM
Being in a top guild means nothing. There are still plenty of people in top 50 guilds who don't know how to gem, enchant, spec or use DPS rotation to the best use. It's why you never see DPS parses from Ensidia or several of the other top guilds, that being they simply don't compete for high damage. Their survivability is usually what gets them the first kills combined with time input. This isn't what this is about though, it's about sheer damage, and so having experience in a 'top guild' means absolutely nothing.

Alverion
06-11-2009, 10:28 PM
But in World of Warcraft, field-experience by being in a world top guild, should also count as research.

Bzzt, wrong. It can't because it's a) not methodical and b) inconsistant. He has also never released any evidence which means he could be lying and is in fact very likely to simply because of that.

When random nobodies disagree with the experience, and refuse to test the posted scenario, because they believe it's to absurd to be right (and later found out, they were wrong), and even starting banning people for disagreeing with the logic of their simulator, the is something seriously wrong.

EJ is not some collection of random nobodies, this is a community that has had many nods from Blizzard, had Blizzard developers post and agree with things written here and also has contributors from many top guilds so your point here about nobodies is abjectly false.

Why do you boneheads insist on this point, Tun was not banned for simply disagreeing, he was banned for being a complete dick about it, not providing any proof of his claims and then when pressed to provide proof went on about how simulators were basically crap all round and not worth a thing (meanwhile he did ask for other people to do the simulations for him). So in short, he was banned for not following the fairly simple EJ rules (Don't be a dick, post correctly and post CONSTRUCTIVELY [which in this case would mean backing up your claim with verifiable numbers])

So EJ can indeed suck. And perm banning a top player for giving what should be a valueable opinion, isn't the way to go.

Permabanning an idiot who refuses to actually assist the conversation and theorycraft is exactly how EJ has been run since the beginning, if he had any brains at all he would've posted DPS parses and offered advice using that, not simply "I'm right, you are all idiots for not believing me RIGHT NOW".

In the end the result reflect a matter of opinions. The community is different than 2-3 years ago, and there's no longer a absolute neeed to visit EJs public discussion forums.

Of course, you can be lazy, not take part and just enjoy the output of the people who do go to EJ and sites like it and actively contribute in a meaningful way but if you agree with Tun in this then you are hypocritical and should probably stop playing, because nearly every number you use to gauge your class, from mitigation TTL to hit% has it's roots on that site. I'm willing to bet my life that you never once tried to figure these things out on your own, you relied on everyone else to do it for you and now that you have that information you refuse to give credit where it's due, dick sucking some feral nobody from a guild made famous by other people who is as hypocritical as you.

In short, I hate Windcape. I hate everyone who reads Windcape, and I hate everyone who posts on Windcape. The poster sucks, the brain there suck and the information you get from there is a pile of shit. Donít ever use that poster.

Windcape
07-11-2009, 01:55 AM
but if you agree with Tun in this then you are hypocritical and should probably stop playing, because nearly every number you use to gauge your class, from mitigation TTL to hit% has it's roots on that site.Last time I checked, the hit cap was a value provided by Blizzard through the Official Forums.

But sure, okay. Whatever you think :-) I'd go with Tun's advice over anyone on this forum, or on this realm. It's gotten me as far as I ever wanted to go in the game, so I can't see much problems with that.

In short, I hate Windcape. I hate everyone who reads Windcape, and I hate everyone who posts on Windcape. The poster sucks, the brain there suck and the information you get from there is a pile of shit. Don’t ever use that poster.It's alright, I wouldn't post here if I expected people to love me, would I?-)

Because if one only did intelligent non-troll posts, nobody would use this forum, or any other forum in the world for that sake :-)

And I don't just hate you too, I hate all people equally much. So no special luv for you, sorreh.

Turiel
07-11-2009, 01:57 AM
Last time I checked, the hit cap was a value provided by Blizzard through the Official Forums.


No, it hasn't. Hit cap, def cap, etc etc have always been worked out by the community and not posted by Blizzard officials. They provide very little, if any, official figures.

Flawless
07-11-2009, 02:25 AM
Blizzard have only given in-depth knowledge of the ArP equation because its such a cluster fuck even they agree it's far too complex as a stat.

It's sort of amusing this thread, as you get Alverion posting a detailed arguement to what reminds me of a politician not being able to admit when they've clearly been trumped.

Saha
07-11-2009, 06:41 AM
perm banning a top player for giving what should be a valueable opinion, isn't the way to go.

Tuns "opinion" wasn't "valueable" for EJ. Your "opinion" isn't "valueable" here either. No matter what guilds you were in, how many programing languages you've learned, how many degrees you got - you're still a proper retard.

‹ber
07-11-2009, 10:15 AM
I'm better than all of you. *cough* EU 2nd back in the day. *cough*

Kryptonix
07-11-2009, 01:17 PM
zOmg this could get interesting off to get some popcorns!

So where is it?

vanroguesing
07-11-2009, 01:36 PM
I ate it am afriad! Where the hell you been these days?!

Borwin
07-11-2009, 02:45 PM
This isnt proper SSE drama. Only guild against guild namecalling counts. So you can refridgerate those popcorn again.

Kryptonix
07-11-2009, 09:46 PM
I ate it am afriad! Where the hell you been these days?!

You bastard! :P I am around these days... I think the real question is where have you been?!

So you can refridgerate those popcorn again.

I wonder how you cook your popcorn in the first place...

vattghern
08-11-2009, 12:42 PM
Yes, because it's so totally hard to understand that he's once again, pointing out that simulators aren't reality.

While it's out of context of his post, the quote is still justified, in the way it reminds people that the only true WoW simulator is the game itself.

Considering how much FBN have developed the past year, I'd say it could use more badmouthing.

What EJ should bloody well remember is what most people take EJ information as a seal of approval. As long as FBN is allowed to remain on the EJ forums as it is now, people will accept whatever information they get out of it.


It's not like you cannot write your own proper simulator and point out the flaws of current one. Be it of programming or any other nature. That'd be what we call constructive criticism. Weird idea, I know.

Anthraxx
17-11-2009, 03:28 PM
http://elitistjerks.com/infraction.php?do=view&p=1456994

Related stuff ;)

Faylin
18-11-2009, 07:22 AM
Now that -IS- a retarded ban. Someone forgot to enable his signature? oh wow, how shocking.