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Fillion
13-08-2009, 01:48 AM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=92074.0

She has lurked in her lair and done battle with the many brave adventurers who travelled to that familiar location over the years. Now, in honor of the World of Warcraft 5-year anniversary, the dreaded brood mother Onyxia is being revamped to make a return to the forefront of Azeroth, as part of our big plans for the upcoming 3.2.2 content patch.

Kenny
13-08-2009, 02:33 AM
ack no plz, in vanilla she was killed. that means she's dead. SHE'S DEAD. STOP JUST RANDOMLY BRINGING DEAD PEOPLE BACK.
HOW DOES THE DEATH/LIFE THING WORK IN THIS GAME I REALLY DON'T GET IT. SOME PEOPLE REVIVE AT WILL, SOME DON'T. SOME STAY DEAD FOR AN EXPANSION OR TWO, SOME JUST DO WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY WANT

Fillion
13-08-2009, 03:36 AM
I demand BWL and MC so I can finish a Judgement set with updated stats and never change into anything else for the rest of this xpac.

Senex
13-08-2009, 08:55 AM
ack no plz, in vanilla she was killed. that means she's dead.
...or does it? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BackFromTheDead)

Llort
13-08-2009, 10:01 AM
We can spirit walk back to our corpses, so why wouldend bosses be able to ^^

Fillion
13-08-2009, 10:49 AM
Besides who cares about wether she's supposed to be dead or not? It's a great way for old player to reminisce about one of the first ever raids as well as letting new people experience a classic.

Kenny
13-08-2009, 12:20 PM
We can spirit walk back to our corpses, so why wouldend bosses be able to ^^

In that case Uther and King Terenas are the slowest corpserunners of all time. =p

I'm not saying it needs to be all perfect, but it just makes no sense who lives or who dies. D:

Sylfide
13-08-2009, 12:43 PM
Now all bosses have GPS so they can find their way back.

Metakerk
13-08-2009, 03:50 PM
It's not like we kill the same guys week after week.

Flawless
13-08-2009, 10:30 PM
Just remembered about this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04

Thrane
13-08-2009, 11:05 PM
In that case Uther and King Terenas are the slowest corpserunners of all time. =p

I'm not saying it needs to be all perfect, but it just makes no sense who lives or who dies. D:

Actually, she's just getting an updated level an' stuff so new people can experience her. Lorewise she's dead. Just cause she gets a higher level doesn't have to mean miraculous ressurection :P So yea.. less qq now k! :P

Stabstalker
14-08-2009, 02:05 PM
ack no plz, in vanilla she was killed. that means she's dead. SHE'S DEAD. STOP JUST RANDOMLY BRINGING DEAD PEOPLE BACK.
HOW DOES THE DEATH/LIFE THING WORK IN THIS GAME I REALLY DON'T GET IT. SOME PEOPLE REVIVE AT WILL, SOME DON'T. SOME STAY DEAD FOR AN EXPANSION OR TWO, SOME JUST DO WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY WANT


hi kenny :D

dantheman
14-08-2009, 03:34 PM
hi stab :D

vattghern
15-08-2009, 07:29 AM
If MMO is right you are going to have almost all vanilla stuff back. Creative and original.

Bunneh
15-08-2009, 09:27 AM
MMOC have spouted stuff before, sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The Gnomeregan reclaiming by the gnoams was meant to happen in TBC, then in Wrath; didn't happen. All the stuff posted should be taken with a pince of salt really.

Tauren Paladins just feels wrong, that said I did comtemplate bringing my Shaman to alliance, the thought of being a draineye killed that but a Dorf Shaman may make me rethink it.

elog
15-08-2009, 12:51 PM
I was really hoping much more that the Emerald Dream would be part of Cataclysm since the dream should be a lush parallell Azeroth where Ysera is. That would allow the revamp (and flying mounts in Azeroth) but still very much different. So I hope MMOC is slightly wrong.

Bleetman
16-08-2009, 03:37 AM
Start me not on the current drivel being vomited up on mmo-champ. The vast majority of the listed changes just make no God damn sense.

elog
17-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Start me not on the current drivel being vomited up on mmo-champ. The vast majority of the listed changes just make no God damn sense.

The scariest part is that they have been right before (whatever sources they have had in the past they were good). I hope they are wrong as well though.

Trupiaczacha
17-08-2009, 07:24 PM
The scariest part is that they have been right before (whatever sources they have had in the past they were good). I hope they are wrong as well though.

all we do have now is just HOPE :(

Metakerk
17-08-2009, 11:13 PM
Wondering if I'll get flamed for saying that I actually like some of it.



I do.

zerotaste
12-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Once again blizzard have teamed up with fisher-price to deliver another welfare encounter.

If you've been on the PTR you'll know what I mean.

Flawless
12-09-2009, 06:41 PM
What's your point? Does it really effect you or your raiding if someone gets an upgrade from an easy encounter considering your guild will probably be the first to have access to all hard mode gear? I thought this sort of LOLWELFAREEPIX shit ended with TBC, as really it's getting old.

Vegelus
12-09-2009, 07:15 PM
Look at ilvl from Onyxia's loot. THEN look at ToC10/25 normal/hard loot ilvl. Now the hardest part - THINK. FOR AT LEAST 10 SECONDS!

lulululululululwelfarelululululepaxesfortehmanzors ?


It was known before you ever touched ptr zerotaste (just from the loot lists), so what's your point? And no, that's not a bad thing. This encounter is being revamped for WoW anniversary. And that means that Blizz wants a lot of people to experience it. And by "experience it" they mean "be able to kill it".
Boos that has been killed by 5 people in vanilla WoW will be killed by pugs/nabs/whatever. Yes, as it's something different from soloing her atm. So stop qqing for no reason here.

zerotaste
12-09-2009, 07:37 PM
CHILLAX GAIS.

Guess your right, this encounter is more about the experiance than the challenge.

Saha
12-09-2009, 09:27 PM
I thought this sort of LOLWELFAREEPIX shit ended with TBC, as really it's getting old.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Just because problem is old it doesn't mean there is no problem. Inflation of gear atm is at highest peak ever. That being said, I think it's quite normal to be disapointed by yet another step in the same direction Blizzard was going since late Vanilla.

Flawless
12-09-2009, 10:36 PM
A problem? How is it? Do you not get all the BIS gear when it matters/for when it will matter? Does it effect your progress if SUPERKNIGTDK from <LEGENDS OF WOWDK> gets some ilevel 232 epic? Gear is no longer a way of showing your progress (character or guildwise) achievements where added for more reasons than prolonging content and time spent online.

woopie says the guy who wants to gear an alt without having to do every raid instance, or the person who starts playing after some time out, or the person who has just reached 80 and doesn't have to spend weeks gearing up to an acceptable level.

Raiders still get the best of the best gear, sure it'll be dated a few weeks after IC is released, but then you'll be on your way to farming IC and again in the best of the best gear.

Saha
12-09-2009, 11:36 PM
It's a problem in a many ways. I'll go one by one (hi wall).

1. Character progression. That's one of the most important aspects in any MMO or you can even go wider - RPGs.
Achievements as progression? heh. Let's be realistic. Only thing which "changes" by getting achievement is getting some points for doing something. Which in no way enhances your character. Hence, it is not character progression on itself. It's side effect. A nasty smell is not a fart, it's effect of farting.
Why do I say that character progression via gear is being killed? It's quite obvious. In Vanilla you had to have a lot of gear from lower tier to move to next one successfully (maybe requirements were even too steep). In TBC you basically could jump each 2 tiers and be more or less fine in most cases. In WotLK you can jump into Coliseum normal with character who dinged 80 a week ago and be fine. And that's 3d tier in WotLK. Yes, I'm not talking out of my arse and can provide examples if someone decides "this is not possible, stop exaggerating".

2. Too high item inflation borks up game mechanics. That's why we see a lot of nerfs to abilities that were perfectly fine at start of expansion (both TBC and WotLK). Another clear indicator that something is wrong (or rather not something, but ilvl growing too fast) is SWPs invisible aura. Guess what, IC will have aura again. So, in 3-4 tiers of raiding ilvl advancement goes through such a roof that developers can't even find solutions with "minor" nerfs and instead have to add something as stupid as "HAI BOSS HAS 20% MORE CHANCE TO HIT YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO GOOD". The fuck is that.

3. Effort to reward topic. I'm not even sure if I need to point what is fucked in this one since it should be quite obvious. How much effort did killing stuff like Mimiron hard mode or Yogg+0 take for people? For that you got 1 extra loot compared to normal modes kills. Well ok, can live with that since there's still a considerable reward for the effort. 3 months later (yes, 3 months is a very short period) you get Coliseum which even in 10 man version mostly provides better rewards and does not require ANY effort. Suddenly, only reward for killing something worth mentioning becomes only nerd screems on vent. Ohh and those nasty smells, sorry, points.

4. Difficulty. So they decide people need to see content and that Grull/SWP was too hard for average raiders. Ok, they solve it with hard/normal modes. Seems almost perfect solution. Ulduar is a hit and a miss style with hardmodes. Some of them are a joke, some of them are overtuned. It's fine, it's first attempt and as such isn't too bad. It'll get better, right?
But behold, a problem emerges. Now those who yelled that SWP was too hard yell that seeing content is not enough for them. They want to kill Hard Modes now as well. Nerfs start rolling in after 1st week from release on the boss who was killed by 300+ guilds worlwide within first 50 wipes on HARDMODE? What? It's last bastion of player progression ffs. With such "progression" as it is now you'll be able to bring keyboard turners to "end game" and be fine. Ohh wait, hi CoI (sorry, couldn't resist being cunt that I am).

5. "God damn, I need that item on my main". Yes, it's ridiculous as that. Alts with couple days played having certain better items than your main on which you spend a lot of time because of... luck. You can say that easily equipping alts is good. I'll agree on that one. However everything should have boundaries that don't cross sanity line.


No, there is no problem. Everything is fine.

zerotaste
13-09-2009, 02:35 AM
Let’s evaluate what’s currently in the game. These are all places a poor geared player can go in order to prepare for higher content.

-Naxxramas
-Sarth
-Malygos
-Heroics, specifically trial of the champion.
-VoA
-The AH. (BoEs, darkmoon cards, craftable items)

Don’t forget whilst your busy gearing up in those instances your getting badges to spend on the next tier as a bonus. There is always going to be a way for “SUPERKNIGTDK from <LEGENDS OF WOWDK>" to get his gear and participate in the latest content.

Remember when SWP was released we had a 5 man that dropped some great gear (tank+caster trinket) to help struggling guilds get into the latest content. Now we have a 5 man coliseum instance that drops decent gear too. Even when IC gets released your going to get a 5 man instance and guess what? That’s more loot to prepare you for the 10 man IC.

This is what I don’t understand about Onyxia, I think there’s more than enough puggable gear up opportunities in the game already for poor geared players. Personally I would have appreciated an optional hard mode or making her difficultly on par with the gear she drops. However i’m reminded that it’s just a ‘celebration’ event and I shouldn’t have taken it too seriously. Even though there’s nothing beneficial in it for some, i'm sure most players will be entertained and will keep coming back for a 22 slot bag/bag of gems/mount/achievements.

Flawless
13-09-2009, 02:24 PM
@Saha,
I used the wrong word, but gear shouldn't be the way which you evaluate how progressed you are in a game. Vanilla WoW, you pvp'd or you raided (even then PVP Marshal set was around BWL quality) so basically for you to enjoy the game and to make your character better you needed to raid.

Gear inflation, well that's blizzard problem all over. They are the ones who decided to increase item levels a ton and how much they go up with each new raid. With or without "welfare epics" it would still be a problem.

Effort for reward, this is what I mean by gear shouldn't be a mesure of progression in game because at some point there will be something better. Don't forget you (as the raider) made the choice to spent all that time on hardmode bosses, why I don't know better guild ranking, be the server no1, whatever. You are being rewarded by these achievements/feats of strength to show how good you are, I'd rate having a Death's Demise title of any gear, and as I said guild's that are capable of doing hard modes will have the best of the best gear when it matters (I.e for Icecrown where the race starts again)

as for ony, great ilevel 232 while you have access to 250~ilevel gear that is a substantial difference.

Saha
13-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Heh, I think we have a major misunderstanding here. You are talking about measuring progression according to gear. I am talking about char progression gear wise.

I mean, you're looking at epeen part while I am looking at gear as one of the key factors to make players progression through content fluent. As in, you did Ulduar 25 man for certain amount of time, acquired decent amount of gear from there so that your character has good enough stats to move on to Coliseum. Instead of that, atm we have pretty much any content patch making any previous content obsolete. "Why should I bother going to Uld, if I can go to Coli normal 10 and 25 man, clear it 3 times as fast and get much better quality loots?"

Epeen factor... Well it's only frustrating, at least for me, to target random druid in Dalaran who hasn't even killed Yogg+4 and see something like Mjolnir trinket which I, as well as several other guildies, still don't have and need quite badly. You can ask for example Morithil, what he thinks about his vendor boots compared to some random DK who's sporting wooping 2k DPS. Hardly epeen issue, is it?:)

Flawless
13-09-2009, 03:04 PM
I was also thinking about the progression side of instances, I mean you'll have access to all that you need (if it doesn't drop when/for who needs it thats another issue, and has been a fairly major one since Vanilla even more so now that set-pieces aren't what people are hoping to drop) but by the time IC comes you will have access to all of the Totc heroic loot needed to swiftly progress into Icecrown

also, surely its a good thing there is more welfare epics being added so that people can get better gear if they've been unlucky, sure it's probably not BIS but that won't matter if it is still improving your character.

What you are saying is really, when you are doing hardmode content you should be able to min-max your character properly rather than hope for a % drop?

Saha
13-09-2009, 03:40 PM
What I am saying is, there's no progression. You ding 80 with your alt and you're in highest tier raiding (atm Coli) within a week or max two if you're slowpoke/unlucky. So technically, only progression you have left atm is lvling.

Flawless
13-09-2009, 04:01 PM
And that's a bad thing? It gives the player so many more options and you aren't stuck with one character unless you spent hours doing MC in some shit bad pug, or where lucky enough to get carried

Saha
13-09-2009, 04:24 PM
...

Flawless
13-09-2009, 04:31 PM
Perhaps I'm just not getting it, I've always thought this welfare epics arguement was due to casual players getting gear that is equal to some item that was only obtainable through hours put into raiding.

Turiel
13-09-2009, 08:12 PM
Blizzard specifically said that their intention was to cut progression - so someone didn't have to gear up in Naxx before moving on to the next tier.

Saha
13-09-2009, 09:57 PM
As I wrote in this thread already:

You can say that easily equipping alts is good. I'll agree on that one. However everything should have boundaries that don't cross sanity line.

Über
13-09-2009, 11:12 PM
Why do I say that character progression via gear is being killed? It's quite obvious. In Vanilla you had to have a lot of gear from lower tier to move to next one successfully (maybe requirements were even too steep). In TBC you basically could jump each 2 tiers and be more or less fine in most cases. In WotLK you can jump into Coliseum normal with character who dinged 80 a week ago and be fine. And that's 3d tier in WotLK. Yes, I'm not talking out of my arse and can provide examples if someone decides "this is not possible, stop exaggerating".

Actually, you are talking out of your arse. In Vanilla one really didn't need to get a lot of gear from lower tier to move to next one successfully. Say hello to MC & BWL runs with freshly dinged powerleveled characters wearing full green quest reward gear. I bet people on Vek still remember that one guy from who was wearing a blue ring from Deadmines while clearing BWL. I myself had tough luck with wrists and pants, though it made raiding Naxxramas a bit more challenging when you were wearing pro healing gear (green wrists and blue pants from Dire Maul). Not to mention that if you were standing in a fire, you could always blame it on the gear. =7

So no, the requirements back then weren't really that steep as they might have seemed to you.

(Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying that the main point in your post is bullshit, just that you're backing it up with the said manure.)

Saha
14-09-2009, 01:24 AM
Do you mean full bwl run with people in greens/blues or just half the raid being shit geared but experienced players and getting carried? Since frankly, I can't really imagine several fights in BWL, not to mention AQ or Naxx being done with full fresh char raid. MC, yes. But that's tier1 so it's normal that experienced players can steamroll it with fresh alts.

And yes, I did my own fair bit of boss killing with stuff like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=13378 and +7 weapon dmg chant=P

Über
14-09-2009, 07:51 AM
I mean the first 40 people of the guild who had dinged 60. Naturally some dinged way faster than others and had time to get better gear than just the quest rewards. And yes, all the people were experienced raiders most of them knewing each other from their earlier realms.

I can't remember how far they got with their first BWL raid but I'm sure they cleared the place with just a few raids if not on the first one since I was still leveling when they cleared it. Do also notice that everyone was gearing up at the same time @ MC, AQ20, Onyxia, ZG and outdoor bosses so on the first BWL run some people had one or two epics. The MT most probably was the only exception having gathered all the drops he could from other raids and being the only one in the raidgroup with a few gear upgrades & enchants on them.

Vegelus
14-09-2009, 11:44 AM
Ah yea, now I know where I've seen about those people. Weren't they sucessfully (compared to other guilds at that time) raiding AQ40 in very short time too?

vattghern
14-09-2009, 10:51 PM
It's a problem in a many ways. I'll go one by one (hi wall).

1. Character progression. That's one of the most important aspects in any MMO or you can even go wider - RPGs.
Achievements as progression? heh. Let's be realistic. Only thing which "changes" by getting achievement is getting some points for doing something. Which in no way enhances your character. Hence, it is not character progression on itself. It's side effect. A nasty smell is not a fart, it's effect of farting.
Why do I say that character progression via gear is being killed? It's quite obvious. In Vanilla you had to have a lot of gear from lower tier to move to next one successfully (maybe requirements were even too steep). In TBC you basically could jump each 2 tiers and be more or less fine in most cases. In WotLK you can jump into Coliseum normal with character who dinged 80 a week ago and be fine. And that's 3d tier in WotLK. Yes, I'm not talking out of my arse and can provide examples if someone decides "this is not possible, stop exaggerating".

2. Too high item inflation borks up game mechanics. That's why we see a lot of nerfs to abilities that were perfectly fine at start of expansion (both TBC and WotLK). Another clear indicator that something is wrong (or rather not something, but ilvl growing too fast) is SWPs invisible aura. Guess what, IC will have aura again. So, in 3-4 tiers of raiding ilvl advancement goes through such a roof that developers can't even find solutions with "minor" nerfs and instead have to add something as stupid as "HAI BOSS HAS 20% MORE CHANCE TO HIT YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO GOOD". The fuck is that.


I concur with Saha. What is written in points 1 and 2 are great examples of 'How you haven't done your classic RPG Game Master homework'. I mean, everyone who tried to be GM would know where it all ends. These are the very basic mistakes almost every starting GM did (I know I did) and then discovers how deep hole he had dug himself. I won't go into details as what Saha wrote covers it pretty well. If someone wants to discuss it though let's have a go.

Regarding the difficulty it is another quite expected result. If you give the poor the fish not the fishing rod, he will ask you for more fishes. So here you go.

RNG is lovely thing. Not.

With such "progression" as it is now you'll be able to bring keyboard turners to "end game" and be fine. Ohh wait, hi CoI (sorry, couldn't resist being cunt that I am).


After all if you had Paladins you could keyboardturn tank whole Naxx ;) Shamans were clearly OP.

Speaking of that Vek guild. Weren't they just rerollers with quite extensive raid and class experience? Because it rings that kind of bell.

Über
15-09-2009, 07:08 AM
Speaking of that Vek guild. Weren't they just rerollers with quite extensive raid and class experience? Because it rings that kind of bell.

If I remember correctly, Windwalkers had quite a lot people rerolling to Vek'nilash from the same previous realm. Though they weren't originally from the same guild but rather from 3-4 different guilds. Rest of the guild (~50%?) were fresh recruits from Vek'nilash. WW also used to mass recruit and guildkick as well, so if someone screwed up something serious in a raid, that was it from him/her. This of course resulted also in mass drama, which naturally suited me. :)

The extensive previous raiding experience was required from everyone, and as Vek'nilash was opened when Naxxramas was introduced, you were supposed to have a lot of knowledge from the previous raidinstances, if not having cleared them.