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View Full Version : Fear of Freedon of Speech? What A State Britain & The Rest of Europe Has Become?


Takehiko
15-02-2009, 03:01 AM
Well i thought i would spice this place up a little with some conversation and debate about a subject that some might think is interesting, some might find offensive (sorry if you do) and some might not want to get involved in because they fear what others might think of their opinion.

Firstly, i am not racist in any way. This thread isn't about race (but some might not be able to see beyond that), this thread is about freedom of speech and liberty being taken away from us as a western culture due to the fear of of how non-western cultures and beliefs will react to anything that disagrees with them. Also i am an atheist, i don't follow any religion as i believe they are all corrupt and were created over the ages as a form of manipulation and control over people as well as a tool for war and persecution. I am British and i am proud to be British, but apparently it is wrong for me to feel that way now in our "multicultural" Britain. In Britain now we are made to feel guilty of our heritage because it might upset these other cultures, what the hell? My grandfather and great grandfather fought in both world wars against fascism for our freedom along with millions of others, millions died and what for? we have no freedom to express our rights and views if they are not politically correct or may upset people from a different race or culture.

Now recently in Britain there have been numerous events that have happened that are just wrong and just show how multiculturalism isn't working. This came to to a head recently with the protests over what was happening in Palestine and the way protests against the actions of Israel just turned into an orgy of hate against the English government, police and people (even though it was nothing to do with England what was happening in Palestine). Please watch the video of the march here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a30_1231817826
Not much of this made the TV. One police officer has blogged about it, which is well worth a read : http://sheepdogsandwolves.blogspot.com/2009/01/so-who-started-it.html
Note that the guy filming is shouting 'Kuff' and 'Kuffar' at the Police (these are racist terms to describe native Britons), whilst calling the police cowards and shouting 'God is Great' in Arabic. If this had been a minority march of an extremist British organization such as the BNP, or a march by any other 'minority' (check out the arrests of Chinese protesters recently), then we'd have seen a much bigger police response.
Why is it softly-softly with these people every time?

Also the current situation in Gaza has led to a rise in direct action and occupations on campuses across the UK by fringe groups.
Rather than seriously debate the issues concerning military action in Gaza and the wider Middle East conflict, these extremist seek to threaten groups of students and create dangerous divisions between different groups on our university campuses.
Occupations and other forms of aggressive direct action taken by these very small groups have led to students refusing to attend university and college courses for fear of anti-semitism, bullying, abuse and racism. This is completely unacceptable and must be stopped immediately.

Now take a look at this: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2195030.ece
Madness. All because of yet another orchestrated 'complaint'. How many thousands and probably millions of us, find these complaints themselves offensive, let alone the impact on us?

Now a couple of days ago we had the whole issue surrounding Geert Wilders. Wilders is a Dutch parliamentarian who created a film called Fitna. Approximately 17 minutes in length, the film shows selected excerpts from Suras of the Qur'an, interspersed with media clips and newspaper clippings showing or describing acts of violence and/or hatred by Muslims. The film wishes to demonstrate that the Qur'an, and Islamic culture in general, motivates its followers to hate all who violate the Islamic teachings. Consequently, the film argues, Islam encourages, among others, acts of terrorism, antisemitism, violence against women, and Islamic universalism. A large part of the film deals with the influence of Islam on the Netherlands.
The film's title, "fitna", is an Arabic term used to describe "disagreement and division among people" or a "test of faith in times of trial". Wilders, a prominent critic of Islam, described the film as "a call to shake off the creeping tyranny of Islamization".
On March 27 2008, Fitna was released to the Internet on the video sharing website Liveleak in Dutch and English versions. The following day, Liveleak removed the film from their servers, citing serious threats to their staff. On March 30, Fitna was restored on Liveleak following a security upgrade.
Now I'm not defending 'Fitna' because I thought it was tacky. But the fact our government has now barred his entry into the UK, because of the fear of a backlash by Muslim extremists is unacceptable:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5710559.ece
Our FEAR of Muslim violence, and the West's ongoing curtailment of liberty and free speech proves Wilders underlying point completely, and the irony is not lost.
One year ago Pat Condell published this video response to 'Fitna'. It is intelligently made, witty and straight to the point. Other than the fact he is an atheist too means we are reading from the same page and share the same views.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_qelW5qp4

So there we have it. How multiculturalism can go wrong and how our freedom of speech and our liberty can be taken away because the western world and it's goverments are afraid of how certain groups would react with violence. It's a poor state of affairs isn't it. We are politically and culturally conditioned to apologies for even speaking out against these things and I can appreciate the sense of injustice that people feel, when the British state positively supports pretty much any racial pressure group that it fears.
There appear to be two possible ways to resolve this. Either Britain dispenses with identity politics altogether, and we outlaw any organization that seeks to reinforce any particular racial group's sense of separateness. Or, we accept that the indigenous people of Northern Europe have the same rights and privileges. If you look around the whole world, there is a concept of homeland and the prior rights of people's to areas of geography. Native Americans, Maoris, Tibetans. The case of the Chagos islanders recently. Either this concept of peoples and homeland is wrong everywhere, or it should apply here. I think that is my biggest problem with it - the huge contradiction.
The growing crisis in the UK though is not race but culture. We do a good job individually getting along with different people on the whole, but our system of multiculturalism is rooted in a xenophobic bias (overly accommodating, or preferential) toward cultures and creeds other than our own. There's a certain inevitability about this, I think. Whilst the State continues to enforce the mantra of 'celebrating diversity' then the differences between people will continue to grow into division. Without a unifying culture and sense of allegiance, foreign religio-political ideologies - even ones which are at odds with liberal democracy (and that's what Islam/ism is - rather than just a straightforward faith group) will ferment unchallenged. We desperately need to redescribe 'multiculturalism' and celebrate similarity rather than those things which divide us.

I know this is a long post and quite heavy and deep in places, but it is something that is a big topic in Britain at the moment.

Taurusos
15-02-2009, 03:40 AM
FYI, you dont seem to know what atheism is. What you are claiming to be is agnostic. Please dont use large words without knowing what they mean.
In my line of work, the wrong type of information or interperation of words in an article, undermines your credibility. Atheism consists of actually believing in the non-existance of God. Agnostic is when you state that you dont believe for X, Y or Z reason.
An atheist has a scientific view on existance of God. The agnostic is not the same, but with your reasoning you are agnostic, not atheist as you claim to be. Dont take my word for it, make some research before trying to get on to a hot topic or create a "serious" thread.

---

However, I am totally with you on the patriot part. As an English citizen, you should be able to fully and openly show your pride concerning your heritage without feeling you will be haunted and looked down on.
Similar cases exist here in Sweden, where Africans or Asians can walk around with their national soccerteam shirt, but when Swedish, as in Svenssons and Larssons do the same the reaction is "oh my god racist".

---

Muslim violence? That makes you look very goofy. The idiotic acts that are shown in the movie you mention or by terrorist dont have anything to do with religion. Its acts of idiots, it doesnt have anything to do with terrorists being muslims, jews or what not. Im an atheist myself so I have no personal need to protect Islam, Christianity et cetera. My questions to you is how objective you actually are? All and all reading the information you set forth is making you look misinformed. Poor knowledge. If you actually want to make a serious post, why dont you do some research and choose your wording better?
It is hard to take your cry for "freedom of speech" seriously when you are slandering or claiming to be something that you are not (atheist).

There is nothing wrong with multicultural events nor religions. What is wrong is when:

a: people like yourself sit down and think for themself they are bout to post something PROPERLY informing and true and failing at it due to lack of research
b: people that use religions as a means to gain land, power or wealth


I suggest you look into the meaning of words you have used, I also suggest you paragraph more often. And for the love of God, before trying to get a message out there, do bit of research. This is (and im not trying to be personal, your effort was ok) nothing but old rubbish you are talking about packed with a new coating.

You put forth the problems, yet you do not manage to propose any solutions nor acknowledge the real problems.

iTank
15-02-2009, 08:53 AM
This reminds me of news I read almost every week from Swedens Malmö and few other citys there where things have gone very wrong it seems. And here in Finland some people with higher status are still trying to open borders even more for every refugee without even looking other to other places like France, England, Sweden or Germany.


Oh yeah.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15642/4

Arthran
15-02-2009, 11:01 AM
FYI, you dont seem to know what atheism is. What you are claiming to be is agnostic. Please dont use large words without knowing what they mean.
In my line of work, the wrong type of information or interperation of words in an article, undermines your credibility. Atheism consists of actually believing in the non-existance of God. Agnostic is when you state that you dont believe for X, Y or Z reason.
An atheist has a scientific view on existance of God. The agnostic is not the same, but with your reasoning you are agnostic, not atheist as you claim to be. Dont take my word for it, make some research before trying to get on to a hot topic or create a "serious" thread.



Thats a mistake most people would make, in England the term Atheist is used to describe both Aethism and Agnostics, its a failure in teaching in our country.


Muslim violence? That makes you look very goofy. The idiotic acts that are shown in the movie you mention or by terrorist dont have anything to do with religion. Its acts of idiots, it doesnt have anything to do with terrorists being muslims, jews or what not. Im an atheist myself so I have no personal need to protect Islam, Christianity et cetera. My questions to you is how objective you actually are? All and all reading the information you set forth is making you look misinformed. Poor knowledge. If you actually want to make a serious post, why dont you do some research and choose your wording better?
It is hard to take your cry for "freedom of speech" seriously when you are slandering or claiming to be something that you are not (atheist).


The problem more comes down to how the acts are portrayed in our Media here. I think we can all agree that Terorists who blow people up etc to try and further their cause are idiots, that kind of fear tactics just doesnt work in the information age. The problem is that some idiot blows himself up, and later that day a militant islamic group claims responsibility, was they responsible? Probably not, but all we see in the media in these events is "Muslim" violence, all we see is a few idiots, taking idiotic action, and then citing their own personal beliefs as a cause.

Now being an Aethist and a scientificly minded person, i regard all religions as both suspisius (in the case of "Organised" religion) and necesary to human culture (if people as a whole have nothing to believe in, noaftelife to hope for etc, many people just could not deal with the hardships of reality). There's alot of bad things within Islamic religion IN MY OPPINION, But at no point does the actual teachings of the religion tell people that Terorism is ok, unfortunately its an offshoot, another group of idiots teaching new idiots, that its the answer and that Terorism in Ahlah's name is right. Again Unfortunately, the media portray's the whole religion based on the actions of this offshoot group of idiots.



There is nothing wrong with multicultural events nor religions. What is wrong is when:

a: people like yourself sit down and think for themself they are bout to post something PROPERLY informing and true and failing at it due to lack of research
b: people that use religions as a means to gain land, power or wealth


No, what is wrong and what is happening in the west in most countries is this:
Spineless and soft willed People in power are bowing to fear, they bow to the wants and needs of a very very small vocal minority, often to the detriment of the majority. They are so scared of backlash that often in the name of political corectness they attempt to change things that nobody has a problem with, on the just-in case it ofends somebody. These days in Britain it has got to a state that in an effort to not offend muslims the government will change thigns, and top muslim leaders in Britain will plainly come out and say "we wasnt offended, what are you talking about?".

Were at a stage in England where the national day to honour our patron saint (whilst i am an Aethist, my country is actually christian, Honest), is being talked about being banned! Now for years we have been fine celebrating St patricks day, but St george's day isnt even a bank Holiday. It comes arround, we get all patriotic. We get English flags out and put them on our cars and houses. Then get told we arent allowed to fly our nations flag because it could be offencive to other cultures. Now if you went up to an american and told them they couldnt fly their flag on Independance day or on Flag day, they would shoot you, So why cant we have the same level of National pride?

The problem may not be as obvious to those in other countries, but i've talked alot to people in my country. Average workers, common people. Of all religions and races. And Political Correctness and Multicultural Pandering FROM THE GOVERNMENT has gone too far! Im all for enjoying other people's culture, my landlord is Asian, her and her family i believe are Sikh, and they enbrace English culture fine. My personal problem comes down to this:

Political Correctness and Multicultralism are being used/treaded wrongly by the government. The government in this country is so scared of offending the minority and being seen to "break human rights" that the rights and the culture of the many is being ignored/eroded away.

Our government is pushing us back further and further into the dark ages of fear and loathing. The reason we have a rise in racism etc is plain: Our youth are growing up in a country wherebeing proud to be English/British is wrong and where your forced to respect every culture but your own.


The problem is not any of the hundreds of foreign countries people are coming from to live in England, The problem is not in the handfull of religions that these people come from. The problem is with the idiots in power who attempt to make newcomers to England's cultures be safe here, rather than telling people: "you come to England, you accept English culture and law, if thats not ok with you, dont come here"

Rant over

Chonar
15-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Remember the whole hub-bub about the children's toy saying cute baby garble words that some retard parent interpreted as "Islam is the light"? I liked the part where no one felt any shame about saying that this was a 'bad influence' while the Islam is just another religion among so many others, with hundreds of toys out there carrying a christian theme. And no one being up in arms about those.

Goonerr
15-02-2009, 01:17 PM
i follow Apathetic agnosticism..

England simply isnt English anymore... companys here would rather employ people from OTHER countrys, what happened with British jobs for British people? its total bullshit and our prime minister doesnt seem to give a rats ass what happens in regards to foreign workers taking our jobs.

foreign people come to live in england, i have no problem with that, but you hear on the news all the time how they are trying to change British Laws because it doesnt suite there foreign religion or something along those lines, if foreign people WANT to come, live and work in england then they should abide by our rules... do you think if i wanted to move to say, packistan and change there alls and build churches on every street corner they would allow me??? i dont think so, i doubt they would even allow me to live in the country let alone try and change the law or build churches.

id also like to add... if you fly the ST.GEORGE CROSS... its classed as racist towards muslims and other religouse groups in England.. wtf?
http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/05/recently-ben-sm.html

Recently, Ben Smith, an English football fan, decided to show his team support by displaying the flag of England - the red St. George's Cross - on his car. Mr. Smith was pulled over by police on a routine traffic stop but the gist of the stop was far from "routine" --- or is it?

Ben was stunned to be told by the policeman that his Flag of England was racist and "offensive to immigrants" and that he would be fined £30 if he refused to remove it from view.

Über
15-02-2009, 03:03 PM
Oh my, I have to say the first page does look quite promising at the moment.

Thordyn
15-02-2009, 03:22 PM
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." — Denis Diderot

Über
15-02-2009, 03:29 PM
Very good, except that the quote in question isn't Diderot's if my memory serves me right. =7

Thordyn
15-02-2009, 03:36 PM
Very good, except that the quote in question isn't Diderot's if my memory serves me right. =7
According to wikipedia it's attributed to Diderot and Meslier, but it was neither of them?
Great quote though. A favourite.

Here's another, not by a philosopher but by comedian George Carlin (R.I.P)

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man - living in the sky - who watches everything we do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'till the end of time...But He loves you."

iTank
15-02-2009, 03:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

elog
15-02-2009, 03:57 PM
This is very much my own perspective but in my opinion the underlying problem is the acceptance of extreme movements in the muslim world. However, this has very little to do wih Islam in itself as to the power of religion in those parts. People in general could very well have been Christian with the same lack of judgement (which the history of the western world shows).

We have nutters in our own back yards, such as Neonazis, but they are seen as, and dealt with, as extreme points of view and have a hard time to get through. When it comes to Hamas or Hizbollah the moderates from the middle east suddenly turn quiet despite the fact that both these organizations are very extreme (that the first political program point is to exterminate another people is hard to call anything else than extremist regardless of political colour).

Why this disability to call a spade a spade is so strong is something I cannot answer. And why (in particular) the political left is so anept in seeing the same just because they dislike Israel is another enigma. I would have thought that every organization should be judged on their own. The moment we start to believe that our enemy's enemy is our friend we are on a path to failure (see Saddam that the west was friendly with because he was against Iran despite being a nasty nut case, same with Islamist fundamentalists when they were fighting Sovjet in Afghanistan).

Chonar
15-02-2009, 04:29 PM
England simply isnt English anymore... companys here would rather employ people from OTHER countrys, what happened with British jobs for British people? its total bullshit and our prime minister doesnt seem to give a rats ass what happens in regards to foreign workers taking our jobs.

DEY DURKA DURRB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2fGl9587X8
DEY DURKA DURRB
Durka durrrb

Edit: why the hell wont this youtube movie embed?

Ajial
15-02-2009, 05:20 PM
i follow Apathetic agnosticism..

England simply isnt English anymore... companys here would rather employ people from OTHER countrys, what happened with British jobs for British people? its total bullshit and our prime minister doesnt seem to give a rats ass what happens in regards to foreign workers taking our jobs.
.

I have to admit, I "follow" agonosticism too. I am a man of science always have been always will be, but I'm not ardent enough to claim there is a god but I know that without any fact (which by definition if you arn't theist you do tend to follow physical fact) you can't prove the lack of either.

As for your second point, all I have to say is What. The. Fuck. I didn't actually think anyone followed that bullshit until now, just some media hype brought up to get some sympathy more the poor people fighting over petrol jobs. That remark in itself is pretty racist, anyone who lives in this country has a right to a job. End of.

Leeh
15-02-2009, 05:21 PM
Durkaa durrr

Takehiko
15-02-2009, 05:40 PM
Pat Condells latest video called "Freedom Go To Hell" which was uploaded a couple of days ago onto Youtube after Geert Wilders was denied entry into Britain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW6PRABq4HM

Goonerr
15-02-2009, 05:45 PM
I have to admit, I "follow" agonosticism too. I am a man of science always have been always will be, but I'm not ardent enough to claim there is a god but I know that without any fact (which by definition if you arn't theist you do tend to follow physical fact) you can't prove the lack of either.

As for your second point, all I have to say is What. The. Fuck. I didn't actually think anyone followed that bullshit until now, just some media hype brought up to get some sympathy more the poor people fighting over petrol jobs. That remark in itself is pretty racist, anyone who lives in this country has a right to a job. End of.

like you would understand, i dont know were you come from but no doubt you have a nice little job but dont understand... you live in your country... you go for a job which you just spent alot of money and time to train for to get your qualifications... then you find out the job position you applied for has been taken by a foreign worker who has been in the country less than a week, simply because he comes from a poorer country and will work for less than the minimum wage he gets employed... while i and other british people who have lived in england all there life and have a family and children to support get rejected jobs. sorry but if you think thats justified you need your fucking head looking at.

Takehiko
15-02-2009, 05:47 PM
Another good watch, this country is screwed up beyond belief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HVbGEVzXG4

Takehiko
15-02-2009, 05:49 PM
Shame On Britain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOoLskOXjG8

Vegelus
15-02-2009, 06:01 PM
like you would understand, i dont know were you come from but no doubt you have a nice little job but dont understand... you live in your country... you go for a job which you just spent alot of money and time to train for to get your qualifications... then you find out the job position you applied for has been taken by a foreign worker who has been in the country less than a week, simply because he comes from a poorer country and will work for less than the minimum wage he gets employed... while i and other british people who have lived in england all there life and have a family and children to support get rejected jobs. sorry but if you think thats justified you need your fucking head looking at.

Just. A. Lol.
And now think - is it the same in that foreigns country? If he isn't from China for example, then there are similar situations in his country too.

See, there is one short word for that (cba to write something longer): economy.

Ajial
15-02-2009, 06:12 PM
like you would understand, i dont know were you come from but no doubt you have a nice little job but dont understand... you live in your country... you go for a job which you just spent alot of money and time to train for to get your qualifications... then you find out the job position you applied for has been taken by a foreign worker who has been in the country less than a week, simply because he comes from a poorer country and will work for less than the minimum wage he gets employed... while i and other british people who have lived in england all there life and have a family and children to support get rejected jobs. sorry but if you think thats justified you need your fucking head looking at.

Interesting, you say you don't know where i'm from even though it's clearly written under my name and then go on to claim to know about me. I find that interesting.

From what you've said it's clear that you're either employed for something that is based on book knowledge (as you are correct, I don't do a job that strives to get the cheapest person as the cheapest person is hardly ever the best.. Not a big deal if you're doing a job a monkey can do I suppose) since anyone can learn the theory of a subject or you're doing a job that is so insanly simple that a monkey could do it, you don't seem like an unintelligentperson so i'm going to wager the first.

Second do you not think that we do the same to other countries? I know plenty of people who have gone overseas to work, you're always taking the job away from *someone*. Fact is you can't know what qualifications the other person has, you've worked hard they haven't? If thats the case you've either got a stupid job or stupid qualification or both, as if someone has no qualifications takes the job away from you, you're clearly not setting your goals high enough. I sympathise with you if you're out of work (I have no idea what you do for a living, have no idea if you have a job or if you're just a pissed off statistic) but I do fail to see what the difference is if you're losing a job to someone from within or outside the country.

elog
15-02-2009, 07:04 PM
like you would understand, i dont know were you come from but no doubt you have a nice little job but dont understand... you live in your country... you go for a job which you just spent alot of money and time to train for to get your qualifications... then you find out the job position you applied for has been taken by a foreign worker who has been in the country less than a week, simply because he comes from a poorer country and will work for less than the minimum wage he gets employed... while i and other british people who have lived in england all there life and have a family and children to support get rejected jobs. sorry but if you think thats justified you need your fucking head looking at.

To start off I do not agree with you at all. If two people are following the rules and regulation of a country and one has a passport and the other a work permit may the best man win.

You know there is no difference in an economical sense between the situation you describe and buying a foreign product...such as paying 15 EUR a month to play WoW?

Taurusos
15-02-2009, 08:51 PM
Wow Gooner, didnt want to say this but you look like a complete and utter fool with your smallminded horseshit you are spewing out.

Got a trick question: At what point does a foreigner become an English citizen?

I look forward to your answer.

Example: a "paki" kid that was born in the UK, is he a "paki"? Or is he good old English "fish n chips"? Where does one draw the line?

"THEY COME HERE AND TAKE OUR JOBS!"

Before spewaing out bullshit like that, call your fellow English people and tell them to stop working outside UK, because, God forbid they work elsewhere than UK!

Read what you posted, stop being a schmock.

Goonerr
15-02-2009, 09:05 PM
and ive just proved why the title of this topic is so fucking spot on "FEAR OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH" because i can put money on that loads of other people feel and think the same way as i do, not only that, foreigners come to England and do fuck all, they scrounge off the government for hand outs with there 50 children and 10 wives... they get given houses, better healthcare than the hard working class person and brand new cars to drive around in, for doing nothing other than sitting on there ass.... oh and if they arent happy with the law they kick up a fuss and try and change it!

why is Freedom of Speech no longer freedom of speech?? because of people like you that seems to think everything and anything is justifiable... there was once when people wouldnt tolerate such bullshit and stand up for there rights... but now a days it seems there are too many do gooders in this world and EVERYTHING has to be politically correct.

Vegelus
15-02-2009, 10:00 PM
Freedom of speech is something different than some foolish talk.

Goonerr
15-02-2009, 10:29 PM
No, freedom of speach is freedom of speach, everyone is entitled to say what they want and they shouldnt be put down for it or scared to speak how they feel because thats what is happening.... too many people are scared to say how they truly feel, if people have a problem with what somebody else wants to say then thats up to them and they have to deal with it because in this life you wont allways like or agree with what sombody has to say and to be quite honest, life is to short to care about everones needs or how one person might feel against your view... so if sombody has something to say they should say it, i personally couldnt give two shits what people has to say about me, your free to say it and ill respect your right to say it, i might not agree but thats my problem and ill deal with it.

Kinshara
15-02-2009, 10:58 PM
FYI, you dont seem to know what atheism is. What you are claiming to be is agnostic. Please dont use large words without knowing what they mean.
In my line of work, the wrong type of information or interperation of words in an article, undermines your credibility. Atheism consists of actually believing in the non-existance of God. Agnostic is when you state that you dont believe for X, Y or Z reason.
An atheist has a scientific view on existance of God. The agnostic is not the same, but with your reasoning you are agnostic, not atheist as you claim to be. Dont take my word for it, make some research before trying to get on to a hot topic or create a "serious" thread.


Going to have to call you on your own pedantry here Tau... an agnostic is one who believes that you can't *know* whether a deity exists or not. OED here, the rest you can google if you like: http://www.askoxford.com:80/concise_oed/agnostic?view=uk

I'm an atheist, since I don't believe there are any deities, but I'm also an agnostic, since I can never be 100% sure about whether a deity exists or not. (By the same token, I also can't be sure that we're not living in the matrix at present, or that Queen Maude didn't create the universe last Thursday. I just don't think there's a very high probability for any of them.)




Goonerr: People disagreeing with you, even vehemently, does not impact your freedom of speech. Deliberate censoring does, and thankfully there's very little of that right now. We're free to bitch about the problems in the country, and others are free to disagree with us. What does matter is actions taken; if someone is jailed or ordered by a court to stop expressing a certain viewpoint, *then* they're having their freedom of speech suppressed. ('Course, you do have to face the consequences of your speech in certain situations... libel and slander will net you fines for damaging someone's reputation)

If you want an example, take a look at some of the legal action in Germany over the past few years with regard to holocaust deniers. It's a touchy subject for them, but people have been thrown in jail for saying it didn't happen -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6364951.stm

I figure they should've provided sufficient evidence to show the guy was a complete fool; jailing him makes people suspicious.

oh and if they arent happy with the law they kick up a fuss and try and change it!

You can do the same, y'know.


Edit: feh, I'm slow; you've already posted again with something close to what I said.

captpicard
15-02-2009, 11:27 PM
Fucking Kebalé!

Ajial
16-02-2009, 08:19 AM
No, freedom of speach is freedom of speach, everyone is entitled to say what they want and they shouldnt be put down for it or scared to speak how they feel because thats what is happening.... too many people are scared to say how they truly feel, if people have a problem with what somebody else wants to say then thats up to them and they have to deal with it because in this life you wont allways like or agree with what sombody has to say and to be quite honest, life is to short to care about everones needs or how one person might feel against your view... so if sombody has something to say they should say it, i personally couldnt give two shits what people has to say about me, your free to say it and ill respect your right to say it, i might not agree but thats my problem and ill deal with it.

Freedom of speech is actually freedom to speak without censorship, it does NOT mean you have the right to say whatever you want. Check out these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

Kinshara
16-02-2009, 08:40 AM
Ajial: From your first link:

Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without censorship or limitation.

So yes, it does mean you can say whatever you wish.

As the article notes, however, there's no country at present which grants absolute freedom of speech; for some countries you have "hate speech" laws, others just wish to prevent you from yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre(for the cliched example), or otherwise causing immediate danger to individuals. Theocracies generally impose significant restrictions, as they do in all parts of life.

Taurusos
16-02-2009, 08:51 AM
Gooner, you still didnt answer my question:

When is a foreigner a foreigner? When does a foreigner become English? Is it defined by citizenship?

And you seem to happily avoid answering that. Uncomfortable question?
And 10 wives? What the fuck you on about?
You mentioned people coming to the UK and taking your jobs? I thought you were mad at them for not working? Make your narrowminded ignorant mind up.

Them "pakis" and "niggas" seem to have made you gone ballistic. Time for cleaning up apartheid style?

Freedom of speech is just fine, sadly there are idiots like you rambling and saying different things at different times. First you go on about your jobs being taken, then you whine over foreigners not working. How is it gonna be?
Everything isnt justifiable, by all means, but there is a distinct difference and your generalising people is just pathetic.
How do you explain English citizens working in other countries?

You got a lot of issues to deal with it seems.

Cheiftan
16-02-2009, 09:02 AM
Theocracies generally impose significant restrictions, as they do in all parts of life.

And with good reason. Goonner is right that plenty of people think like he does, mores the pity. When people with his brain capacity join together it enables extremist groups to actually break 5% in the polls, and start to carry some weight. Point is, just because some (whether it be 1, 5, 100, or 3 million) people have a certain opinion, it doesn't make it justified or right. There are certain levels of education and knowledge of subject area that are required before opinions become worth listening to. Knowledge of a subject area is not gained by merely reading the Sun or Mail's editorial.

The main problem though Goonner, is the way in which you make your arguments. You act like a 12 year old troll on an internet forum (wait a sec....). And this flaw is typical of people that think like you do. Is it any coincidence that people who spout this quasi-racist stuff are also the ones who completely skip any thoughts of grammar, along with the ability to back up or quantify their arguments with solid facts? Indeed, a couple of posts back when you start a rant about foreigners (no distinction made between legal and illegal, genuine asylum and fakers) you talk about them leaching from the state. This does happen, but in very very isolated cases. The example you used - of 50 children and 10 wives - is completely fabricated, as i'm sure you will admit. Fact is, your average legal immigrant who comes to Britain to work ends up paying more taxes than the average "native". The flow of labour between countries and continents has been a great thing for this country, just as it has been a great thing for a great number of countries around the world.

You have your freedom of speech. No one is trying to stop you. But just as we will all choose to ignore Abu Hamza al-Masri and his riot-inducing hate speak, anyone with any brains will choose to ignore you.

Taurusos
16-02-2009, 09:05 AM
Well put Chief.

Ill await writing more to see the biggot reply to my post.

Haplo
16-02-2009, 09:09 AM
Thew toowk uwr juuuuubs!

About the dutch Geert Wilders.. He is just saying stuff to get more "less intelligent" people to vote for him. He reminds of some pigs, that all are equal, but some are more equal then others (or something like that).
On the other hand, some people are offended easy (seems to be a hot topic these days).
When you say the koran is shit or the bible is shit. The one has greater consequenses for you then the other.
Personally i cant stand any religion, as all of them teach hatred and are discriminating towards people who dont think alike.

Freedom of speech is for the suckers. I must refer to Geert again, how can you claim that freedom of speech is one of the most important things in Holland, but he is trying to shut up others who dont have western european believes.

Personally i dont give much about what other people think, as long as they dont persuade me to think the same way as them.
Reminds of a song of the past. Let it be... (or something like that)

Kinshara
16-02-2009, 11:52 AM
Personally i cant stand any religion, as all of them teach hatred and are discriminating towards people who dont think alike.

That's tribalism for ya.

Freedom of speech is for the suckers. I must refer to Geert again, how can you claim that freedom of speech is one of the most important things in Holland, but he is trying to shut up others who dont have western european believes.

Personally i dont give much about what other people think, as long as they dont persuade me to think the same way as them.
Reminds of a song of the past. Let it be... (or something like that)

I disagree that it's for suckers... it's one of the most valuable rights we have. Unfortunately, when you combine it with ignorance, you end up with all sorts of crazy and bigoted viewpoints being espoused. They're entitled to do so, but... you sometimes end up with a mob mentality ignoring all countering evidence in favour of bashing their chosen scapegoat. The biggest problem we face right now(globally, not just in Europe) is a lack of education and curiosity, imo. People need some decent background knowledge to figure out how valid a given viewpoint is.




Cheiftan: I don't see the restrictions imposed by theocracies as being good; being killed over a difference of opinion is terrible.

Cheiftan
16-02-2009, 12:04 PM
Cheiftan: I don't see the restrictions imposed by theocracies as being good; being killed over a difference of opinion is terrible.

I suppose I should have qualified my statement. It is good that there are restrictions on what is allowed to be done or said; regardless of whether it's a theocracy or another form of government. Perhaps I used a bad quote to start my argument, since it didn't really matter whether we were talking about theocracies specifically or not. Obviously being killed over a difference of opinion is bad - I hope I didn't come across as suggesting it wasn't. Anyway, if we're talking about theocracies - the majority of present-day states with theocratic aspects won't have someone killed for this. The UK or Norway for example. Iran and Saudi Arabia...that's a different matter and not something we should really delve into here perhaps. Thing is, it's not just theocracies that impose restrictions. And (to quote myself) with good reason.

Freedom is a wonderful thing. It shouldn't be abused and manipulated into a vehicle for hate.

Malakali
16-02-2009, 01:01 PM
Freedom in this day and age comes with a rule book.

With freedom is little benefits and mostly struggle.


{And where is the rest of your song in the sig, cheif? Moar!}

Haplo
16-02-2009, 01:21 PM
let me put it in other words then.. The phrase "freedom of speech" is lately used too much by suckers. Those are the people who shout anything they want and then use the "freedom of speech" quote as reason that they can say such things.
Normal people can speak normally (duh) and dont have to hide behind the "freedom of speech" quote. Or shall we say.. most people still use common sense, but its the loudmouths that are getting the most speakingminutes everywhere it seems.
And the press is loving it (and going with it).

Ajial
16-02-2009, 01:33 PM
let me put it in other words then.. The phrase "freedom of speech" is lately used too much by suckers. Those are the people who shout anything they want and then use the "freedom of speech" quote as reason that they can say such things.
Normal people can speak normally (duh) and dont have to hide behind the "freedom of speech" quote. Or shall we say.. most people still use common sense, but its the loudmouths that are getting the most speakingminutes everywhere it seems.
And the press is loving it (and going with it).

To put it a simpler way: Freedom of speech is the freedom to say anything without it being censored. Freedom of speech is not an excuse to say whatever you want.

(Not to the quoted post) You have the right to say what you feel, and by the looks of it you feel as "outsiders" are taking British jobs. That's fine, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but don't use freedom of speech as an excuse and say "oh but i'm not racist - i'm telling it how it is" because you are. My opinion is that you're wrong and that you're racist, but that's the beauty of us all being individuals, we can have different and conflicting opinions.

Rukia
16-02-2009, 03:14 PM
First, ^5 to all the atheists.

Second, while I agree with some of your points, I think you're not being fair to the majority of immigrants who are hard working and contribute positively to this country. I'm sure you're right that some are just leeches, but look at our own society - what about the teenage mothers on ez moad benefits? The welfare system is generally a sham imo, and I won't get started on it, but this certainly isn't an issue which is specific to foreigners in Britain.

But I do believe you're on the mark with pointing out the oversensitivity of the government to other cultures. It's becoming more and more of a joke. I have nothing but contempt for the people who choose to come to this country, and then demand we make changes to the law or anything else to suit them. Specifically the people who make demands on a religious basis. It's completely wrong, and if they don't like how we do things - they can fuck off.

Kinshara
16-02-2009, 04:00 PM
To put it a simpler way: Freedom of speech is the freedom to say anything without it being censored. Freedom of speech is not an excuse to say whatever you want.

(Not to the quoted post) You have the right to say what you feel, and by the looks of it you feel as "outsiders" are taking British jobs. That's fine, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but don't use freedom of speech as an excuse and say "oh but i'm not racist - i'm telling it how it is" because you are. My opinion is that you're wrong and that you're racist, but that's the beauty of us all being individuals, we can have different and conflicting opinions.

Ah, I see what you mean now (using the term to excuse racism/bigotry). Agreed, it shouldn't be used to try to legitimize such statements.

I wonder how many complaining about foreigners taking their jobs would be willing to pay extra for all the normal services and goods they buy to support higher wage employees? If you have two products that are equal apart from cost, and you buy the cheaper one, you've just tilted the balance in favour of those who will do the same work for less money. Capitalism has some interesting effects at times.

Goonerr
16-02-2009, 05:16 PM
First, ^5 to all the atheists.

Second, while I agree with some of your points, I think you're not being fair to the majority of immigrants who are hard working and contribute positively to this country. I'm sure you're right that some are just leeches, but look at our own society - what about the teenage mothers on ez moad benefits? The welfare system is generally a sham imo, and I won't get started on it, but this certainly isn't an issue which is specific to foreigners in Britain.

But I do believe you're on the mark with pointing out the oversensitivity of the government to other cultures. It's becoming more and more of a joke. I have nothing but contempt for the people who choose to come to this country, and then demand we make changes to the law or anything else to suit them. Specifically the people who make demands on a religious basis. It's completely wrong, and if they don't like how we do things - they can fuck off.


i agree with you, and i feel exactly the same with the lazy people in this country ENGLISH PEOPLE people who were born in the country, the ones who sit at home and scrounge off of the government and know it... they should be given NO BENEFITS at all, they should be left to rott on the street...

people who work hard all the life and get made redundant, they should be given maximum support to find another job and untill then they should be looked after, but the lazy pricks who have and never will have any interest in working should rott in the street.

i dont class myself racist but i am very patriotic and when i see people come into england whos original nationatlity is a different country and they try and change rules, and complain about how shit our country is yet they decided to come here in the first place pisses me right off... wasnt so long ago i seen in a paper a muslim woman moved to this country 2 years ago. DOESNT WORK and was complaining that she had to wait ages for an NHS appointment.

Slicer
16-02-2009, 05:32 PM
i agree with you, and i feel exactly the same with the lazy people in this country ENGLISH PEOPLE people who were born in the country, the ones who sit at home and scrounge off of the government and know it... they should be given NO BENEFITS at all, they should be left to rott on the street...

people who work hard all the life and get made redundant, they should be given maximum support to find another job and untill then they should be looked after, but the lazy pricks who have and never will have any interest in working should rott in the street.

i dont class myself racist but i am very patriotic and when i see people come into england whos original nationatlity is a different country and they try and change rules, and complain about how shit our country is yet they decided to come here in the first place pisses me right off... wasnt so long ago i seen in a paper a muslim woman moved to this country 2 years ago. DOESNT WORK and was complaining that she had to wait ages for an NHS appointment.

I definitely recall asking you a while back if you were from the UK, to which you answered no. The question was entirely based around your spelling and grammar, which hasn't changed.

Edit: http://www.shadowsongeurope.com/forum/showpost.php?p=472427&postcount=13

Cheiftan
16-02-2009, 05:35 PM
wasnt so long ago i seen in a paper a muslim woman moved to this country 2 years ago. DOESNT WORK and was complaining that she had to wait ages for an NHS appointment.

maybe she was sick. maybe she has kids and spends her time looking after them like many women (and men) do. do you even know why she wasn't working? if i was sick and i couldn't get an appointment, i'd probably complain too. what's her being muslim got to do with anything, anyway?

Taurusos
16-02-2009, 05:53 PM
Gooner, u still didnt answer my questions/posts.

Come on, you shout loud, surely you can respond?


To be specific: First you go on about your jobs being taken, then you whine over foreigners not working. How is it gonna be?

And:

What defines an English person and a foreigner?

Look forward to a response.

Ajial
16-02-2009, 06:47 PM
i dont class myself racist

After your posts in this thread I feel other people may disagree with you.

wasnt so long ago i seen in a paper a muslim woman moved to this country 2 years ago. DOESNT WORK and was complaining that she had to wait ages for an NHS appointment.

You're so big on your rights, how about other peoples? I'm refering to the right to medical treatment. Look them up...

These aside I'd be very interested to know what job you work and location within the UK, based on your lack of sentence structure and the way when I read your posts it's always in a Yorkshire accent due to the way you seem to type the way they talk.

Can I ask you a question, honestly. Say for example you wanted to move to the US. You filled in all the paperwork and you get over there and into work. A few months/years down the line you go for a job promotion/change and you are refused because you're not American. How would you feel? If it were me I'd be pissed as hell at being passed over simply because I wasn't born in America, as I'm sure most sane people would.

You may very well be correct that some people do gain entry into the country illegally and gain access to jobs that could otherwise be taken by legal citizens. This happens all over the world every day. Saying "everyone that isn't british is here stealing our jobs" is not only racist but incredibly narrow minded. If someone is here legally and has a work visa, then they have JUST as much right to it as you do, as you do in any most other countries in the world.

The term "British jobs for British people" is racist no matter who said it, and as someone has already pointed out if you actually read the newspaper instead of just the headline you'd know this.


About the benefits thing, don't worry if the conservatists get in next ((which I'm sure they will)) that will be sorted, we all know what they think of *those* people.

Taurusos
16-02-2009, 07:02 PM
wasnt so long ago i seen in a paper a muslim woman moved to this country 2 years ago. DOESNT WORK and was complaining that she had to wait ages for an NHS appointment.

One muslim women did that? DEPORT ALL MUSLIMS!

One pope at the Vaticans raped a child? ALL CHRISTIANS ARE PERVERTS!

One English idiot is being a biggot on the internet, generalising minorities? ALL ENGLISH PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS!

Im talking your language here.

Chonar
16-02-2009, 07:12 PM
ALL CHRISTIANS ARE PERVERTS!

yes

Goonerr
16-02-2009, 07:55 PM
One muslim women did that? DEPORT ALL MUSLIMS!

One pope at the Vaticans raped a child? ALL CHRISTIANS ARE PERVERTS!

One English idiot is being a biggot on the internet, generalising minorities? ALL ENGLISH PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS!

Im talking your language here.

jees, you serious?, if you are then your such a fucking idiot.... if you had any fucking idea what the majority of imigrants are like in the UK ud have a fucking clue, but you dont, you just think your correct every time with your "try to be smart" comments.... this woman had nothing wrong with her and the whole reason why she was in the paper was to point out what the majority of imigrants are like in this country,,, they come here, do nothing and expect to be treated like royalty... but i dont expect you to understand that since ull come back with some "wanna be smart answer"... you seriously have no idea!

infact ive wasted enough of my time here and fed up with replying to morons like you (no doubt ull come back with another smart reply to try and make yourself look intelligent).... say what you like, i have better things to be doing than beating around this bush.

Flawless
16-02-2009, 08:01 PM
Majority of Immigrants in this country have jobs, do work, and still get walked all over because "THEY TAKING R JOBS!!!!!"

Fact of the matter is you only hear about the bad shit because thats all the news cares about.

Thordyn
16-02-2009, 08:05 PM
they come here, do nothing and expect to be treated like royalty...
lol
wow, just wow..

The media portrays middle-eastern people to be screaming terrorists, I really hope they don't portray British people to be idiots like you.

Valoran
16-02-2009, 08:13 PM
jees, you serious?, if you are then your such a fucking idiot.... if you had any fucking idea what the majority of imigrants are like in the UK ud have a fucking clue, but you dont, you just think your correct every time with your "try to be smart" comments.... this woman had nothing wrong with her and the whole reason why she was in the paper was to point out what the majority of imigrants are like in this country,,, they come here, do nothing and expect to be treated like royalty... but i dont expect you to understand that since ull come back with some "wanna be smart answer"... you seriously have no idea!

infact ive wasted enough of my time here and fed up with replying to morons like you (no doubt ull come back with another smart reply to try and make yourself look intelligent).... say what you like, i have better things to be doing than beating around this bush.
Member of the BNP by any chance?

You sound very strongly nationalist, and to be quite frank - that's no better than nazis in my book.

People are people, and if you can't see past the colour of someones skin, or where they come from and treat the person on your experience of *them*, I really don't understand how you can look yourself in the face in the morning.

Taurusos
16-02-2009, 10:10 PM
Gooner you fucking idiot...

Get over yourself...you keep dodging my questions like a bitch who said something wrong, ate the wrong dick then cant admit it.
I even tried to speak your monkey language yet you done dare facing whats thrown at you.

Ill go down the monkeylanguage that you speak you illetrate fuck and quote Mike Tyson for you, since people like you are suppsed to be treated along the lines of:

"I will fuck you til you love me faggot."

Kid, make a trip outside your window, you cant imagine how different the world is outside your ignorant middleclass biggot life.

Alverion
16-02-2009, 10:15 PM
Goonerr has much better things to be doing than beating around this bush guys, like losing jobs to harder working people who can at least spell.

Proterra
16-02-2009, 10:43 PM
lol
wow, just wow..

The media portrays middle-eastern people to be screaming terrorists, I really hope they don't portray British people to be idiots like you.

Actually, they do :P

Taurusos
16-02-2009, 10:48 PM
Nah Prot ;)

On a serious note, yet offtopic, the idea people have about the UK is that the girls from there are mad ugly hehe. Now, I didnt say it, but thats what I get to hear when telling people im going there.

Proterra
16-02-2009, 10:52 PM
Well we have a lot of chavs. But thanks for bringing that up when I speak eh ¬_¬

Generally everyone else seems to think Brits are generally racist pompous twats, and we have a fair few, but I think it's a view jaded by the few who are very outspoken. Only takes one person saying something huge and controversial to start the labeling

Taurusos
16-02-2009, 11:03 PM
To be honest, until seeing what kind of inbred idiot Gooner is, my view on brits were openminded people and no racist stuff. Obviously there is racism everywhere but I havent experienced the views presented by the asshole who created the topic.

Lets wait and see if he gets a tender soft feeling reading the Tyson-quote.

Proterra
16-02-2009, 11:09 PM
Well I've never ever understood racism when it's as bold as what he is putting out there.

I'm not ashamed to admit sometimes I have spoken bad of the local Pakistani men who run the cornershop by my house to my mother, but that only emerged after several times I was followed around their store to ensure I wasn't stealing anything. That annoyed me a hell of a lot because it actually made me put my stuff down and just leave, but you can't base an entire race of people on one bad experience, i've dealt with many people where I work and found the majority friendly, nice people.

Chonar
17-02-2009, 02:51 AM
Dental plan.

soulshift
17-02-2009, 03:32 AM
I've recently had a discussion in college with some Muslims, Christians and such. I don't think there is a god or anything mighty but I can imagine people actually believing in it.

The thing that made me laugh most during that discussion were the muslim kids admitting them not entirely knowing what the Qur'an said or did not say.

The Christian kids generally were a lot better with their knowledge about what the Bible said.

Neither of them actually kept to any of the "rules" said in either book I just mentioned.

The issue is with religion in my eyes is that it was "made up" in a time where we wanted answers to our questions but had no way of answering them. So it was just easy and safe to presume it was a good or bad miracle. Rather blame someone for something good or bad than to not know the real answer of the mystery. People still get strength and hope out of religion and I think that's a good thing if it works for them.
I just don't want them to bother me, like Jehova witness people do. I do treat them with respect when they come by and tell them I read the bible and do not agree with what's being said and generally kindly ask them to leave. Even when they try to put their foot between the door so I can't close it. These days they just skip my house and the regulars nod at me and smile. :P

About people coming to your country to work isn't just an English issue. They're working on the roads here in my city in the Netherlands and about 75% of them is Polish. The Dutch guy that supervises them keeps on delaying them and is quite lazy. He also scammed people out of money for re-doing their gardens with government money and he gets the money (and the Polish people).
So far the Polish people are quite nice but their English sucks. They do work quite hard and sometimes insult their supervisor in Polish. The reason I know is their tone and they way they pronounce it. One even greets me in Dutch these days. :p

The issue is generally the media. The media shows bad things most of the time and it's in people's nature to put stamps on things and put them into little boxes.
The issue here, however, is not that just religious people have closed minds and just put them into boxes. Some of my friends are Muslims that are quite tolerant and open minded and they even read the Bible cause I asked them to compare the Bible, the Qu'ran and ancient mythology.

But as I said, the media is the issue. The media showed a lot of bad news about Israel in Gaza this year and most people are now flooding me with how bad Israel is while last time the media was flooded with how the Hamas used children and schools as shields/shelters.

People just want to put stamps on you. You're gay, you go to hell. You're black, you must be dangerous. You're white, you must be racist for looking at me. You're a Muslim, terrorist. You're Christian, your crusaders raped my ancerstors and so on.
In the end all you see is the people in the media. The idiots that leech from your government, the ones that rape women, the ones that want to silence others. The good ones aren't on TV.

In the end, the media makes you think they're all like that. Cause big headlines with sex scandals/terrorists/religious crap and so on sell better than good happy endings.

My apologies for this rather long post. I generally try to stay out of these topics but i had to. :<

Cheiftan
17-02-2009, 08:23 AM
Dental plan.

Lisa needs braces.

Haplo
17-02-2009, 08:42 AM
Remember that loads of british/dutch people (natives) are acting the same or maybe even worser then the minority of immigrants. Too lazy to work, living on welfare. Those are the people who complain the most instead of getting of their lazy ass and go and work. But its easier to stay at home and complain. People who victimize themselfs in this way should be taken care of...

Hmmm dental plan... does it comes with free brushes?

Edit: like soulshift i hate these kinds of threats and would like to stay out of them, but i just cant stand the ignorance of some people. Cant you go play on the highway?

Chonar
17-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Lisa needs braces.

Dental plan.

dantheman
17-02-2009, 01:51 PM
Dental plan.

Lisa needs braces.

Chonar
17-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Lisa needs braces.

Dental plan.

Thrane
17-02-2009, 03:12 PM
Dental plan.

Lisa needs braces.

Proterra
17-02-2009, 03:12 PM
Lisa needs braces.

Dental plan.

Chonar
17-02-2009, 03:24 PM
Dental plan.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/7/73/Liseneedsbraces.jpg/180px-Liseneedsbraces.jpg

Sparna
17-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Back on Topic.

This Country just has a serious back bone issue... it seems it hasnt got one.

I love other cultures and i quite dislike my own, the drunken hooligan mindset is the ripest thing around as always. (not saying many other western cultures are much different.)

Personally if i were to go on Vacation or Work or Live in another country, i would be there to sample THEIR culture not drag mine along for the ride.

Unfortuantley alot of immigrants and migrants are forced from their countries for whatever reason and didnt really want to leave their culture behind, this is life and must be difficult.

I unfortunatley feel that coming into another country is a privleage (wrong spelling?) that many people take for granted.

Your free to sample everything about them and in the privacy of your own home you can pray, read the bible, celebrate your holidays....

But in the Public realm... its not your culture or country anymore its a brand new one...

Every single person that lives, works, is on vacation in a foreign country should follow their laws and their culture.

I beleive in Singapore you can get arrested and put in jail for jay walking (much worse than American punishment) and i'm sure your not going to say

'I'm British, thats an insult to my culture and laws'

I have a feeling they wont care...

I am not racist, in reality religion, race, sex makes no difference to me.
(although religions can be difficult to understand at times)

But i believe every person deserves your respect. Every foreign person in a foreign country that beleives their laws and culture is all that matters deserve no respect.

Although sometimes people need a reminder that they are in a foreign country, something the British goverment for example has not done or seemingly is not intending to do.

Cheiftan
17-02-2009, 03:47 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/7/73/Liseneedsbraces.jpg/180px-Liseneedsbraces.jpg

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/e/ea/DENTALPLAN.jpg/180px-DENTALPLAN.jpg

Chonar
17-02-2009, 04:18 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/e/ea/DENTALPLAN.jpg/180px-DENTALPLAN.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEugtOiasB4

Slicer
17-02-2009, 04:46 PM
Back on Topic.

This Country just has a serious back bone issue... it seems it hasnt got one.

I love other cultures and i quite dislike my own, the drunken hooligan mindset is the ripest thing around as always. (not saying many other western cultures are much different.)

Personally if i were to go on Vacation or Work or Live in another country, i would be there to sample THEIR culture not drag mine along for the ride.

Unfortuantley alot of immigrants and migrants are forced from their countries for whatever reason and didnt really want to leave their culture behind, this is life and must be difficult.

I unfortunatley feel that coming into another country is a privleage (wrong spelling?) that many people take for granted.

Your free to sample everything about them and in the privacy of your own home you can pray, read the bible, celebrate your holidays....

But in the Public realm... its not your culture or country anymore its a brand new one...

Every single person that lives, works, is on vacation in a foreign country should follow their laws and their culture.

I beleive in Singapore you can get arrested and put in jail for jay walking (much worse than American punishment) and i'm sure your not going to say

'I'm British, thats an insult to my culture and laws'

I have a feeling they wont care...

I am not racist, in reality religion, race, sex makes no difference to me.
(although religions can be difficult to understand at times)

But i believe every person deserves your respect. Every foreign person in a foreign country that beleives their laws and culture is all that matters deserve no respect.

Although sometimes people need a reminder that they are in a foreign country, something the British goverment for example has not done or seemingly is not intending to do.

Oh come on, what is with the British and being unable to speak their own language fluently?

Back on topic.

This country just has a serious back bone issue... it seems it hasn't got one.

I love other cultures and I quite dislike my own, the drunken hooligan mindset is the ripest thing around as always. (Not saying many other western cultures are much different.)

Personally if I were to go on vacation or work or live in another country, I would be there to sample THEIR culture not drag mine along for the ride.

Unfortunately a lot of immigrants and migrants are forced from their countries for whatever reason and didn't really want to leave their culture behind, this is life and must be difficult.

I unfortunately feel that coming into another country is a privilege (wrong spelling?) that many people take for granted.

You're free to sample everything about them and in the privacy of your own home you can pray, read the bible, celebrate your holidays...

But in the public realm... it's not your culture or country anymore it's a brand new one...

Every single person that lives, works, is on vacation in a foreign country should follow their laws and their culture.

I believe in Singapore you can get arrested and put in jail for jay walking (much worse than American punishment) and I'm sure you're not going to say:

"I'm British, that's an insult to my culture and laws"

I have a feeling they won't care...

I am not racist, in reality religion, race, sex makes no difference to me.
(although religions can be difficult to understand at times)

But I believe every person deserves your respect. Every foreign person in a foreign country that believes their laws and culture is all that matters deserve no respect.

Although sometimes people need a reminder that they are in a foreign country, something the British goverment for example has not done or seemingly is not intending to do.

I've probably missed a lot of grammatical errors in there, just can't be bothered to read through and correct those.

Regicide
17-02-2009, 04:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEugtOiasB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57OaqBFKSbI&feature=related

soulshift
17-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Oh come on, what is with the British and being unable to speak their own language fluently?

I've probably missed a lot of grammatical errors in there, just can't be bothered to read through and correct those.

But no comment on the contents of his post? I find that more important than any mistakes he/she might have made.
I know the "Lisa needs bracers" and "dental plan" and such is obvious spamming, but if you do quote something, at least post about it's content instead of going on about silly mistakes. :p

Slicer
17-02-2009, 05:30 PM
I read the post fine, I just find it highly ironic when illiterate British are lecturing other illiterate Brits on points of culture, social code and language yet can't even use their native language properly.

In a lot of cases I've encountered, the people that have immigrated to Britain can speak English more fluently than many of the natives can. That says more to me than any dozen posts claiming to rage about people with ten wives sponging off the benefit system. If they're willing to learn the language, they probably know the guidelines of said culture.

I can't speak anything close to a second language. The nearest I get is a smattering of French and German that I learned in secondary school and refined over many holidays in France. I would be ashamed if there were people speaking multiple languages better than I spoke my native.

Edit to that: I go to university in Dundee, it has the highest ethnic population in Scotland. I haven't encountered a single person fitting the stereotype that Goonerr is preaching about.

dantheman
17-02-2009, 05:47 PM
Edit to that: I go to university in Dundee, it has the highest ethnic population in Scotland. I haven't encountered a single person fitting the stereotype that Goonerr is preaching about.

That's because Goonerr is a fucking retard (I hope that was correct grammar).

Cheiftan
17-02-2009, 08:55 PM
That's because Goonerr is a fucking retard (I hope that was correct grammar).

the important parts are all present and correct.

regarding grammar though; on an internet forum i don't think everything needs to be entirely spot on. i'm really not going to bother proof reading my posts and inserting capitals in all the right places. i spend more than enough time doing that at work.

Slicer
17-02-2009, 09:14 PM
It doesn't exactly take a lot of effort to put them there in the first place. For people who spend even a couple of hours a day on a computer it becomes virtually habitual to just put them in without thinking. I rarely proof read what I write on forums or in a game, I may give it a glance over and if there's any glaring mistakes correct them, but that doesn't occur often.

Cheiftan
17-02-2009, 09:23 PM
It doesn't exactly take a lot of effort to put them there in the first place. For people who spend even a couple of hours a day on a computer it becomes virtually habitual to just put them in without thinking. I rarely proof read what I write on forums or in a game, I may give it a glance over and if there's any glaring mistakes correct them, but that doesn't occur often.

no it doesn't, but that doesn't mean i'm any more likely to do it. and let's be honest here, unless you're a copy editor high on caffeine it barely makes a difference in terms of readability - especially when no one is really concerned about making a good impression. if it keeps you up at night, i can change my ways. anyway, i'd like to think your accusations of illiteracy weren't really aimed at me in the first place.

Slicer
17-02-2009, 09:34 PM
Of course I wouldn't be directing my comments to the people I quoted, that would be altogether too sensible.

Thordyn
17-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Good heavens you boys, blue blooded murder of the English tongue.
BLUT.

Malakali
18-02-2009, 12:04 AM
Good heavens you boys, blue blooded murder of the English tongue.
BLUT.

<3

Cheiftan
18-02-2009, 08:57 AM
safe bruv.

Sparna
18-02-2009, 09:35 AM
Oh come on, what is with the British and being unable to speak their own language fluently?

Back on topic.

This country just has a serious back bone issue... it seems it hasn't got one.

I love other cultures and I quite dislike my own, the drunken hooligan mindset is the ripest thing around as always. (Not saying many other western cultures are much different.)

Personally if I were to go on vacation or work or live in another country, I would be there to sample THEIR culture not drag mine along for the ride.

Unfortunately a lot of immigrants and migrants are forced from their countries for whatever reason and didn't really want to leave their culture behind, this is life and must be difficult.

I unfortunately feel that coming into another country is a privilege (wrong spelling?) that many people take for granted.

You're free to sample everything about them and in the privacy of your own home you can pray, read the bible, celebrate your holidays...

But in the public realm... it's not your culture or country anymore it's a brand new one...

Every single person that lives, works, is on vacation in a foreign country should follow their laws and their culture.

I believe in Singapore you can get arrested and put in jail for jay walking (much worse than American punishment) and I'm sure you're not going to say:

"I'm British, that's an insult to my culture and laws"

I have a feeling they won't care...

I am not racist, in reality religion, race, sex makes no difference to me.
(although religions can be difficult to understand at times)

But I believe every person deserves your respect. Every foreign person in a foreign country that believes their laws and culture is all that matters deserve no respect.

Although sometimes people need a reminder that they are in a foreign country, something the British goverment for example has not done or seemingly is not intending to do.

I've probably missed a lot of grammatical errors in there, just can't be bothered to read through and correct those.

I really appreciate you taking the time to edit my work.

Its great that you understood the importance of my opinion, thank you for using the time that you have (it must be so valuble) to express how important it is to belittle other people.

I commend you.

Illiterate Brits indeed, why language is what... 30% of how we communicate.

I wonder if you correct body language in the same rude and inconsiderate way?

You must be so happy.

Sparna
18-02-2009, 09:45 AM
I read the post fine, I just find it highly ironic when illiterate British are lecturing other illiterate Brits on points of culture, social code and language yet can't even use their native language properly.

Edit to that: I go to university in Dundee, it has the highest ethnic population in Scotland. I haven't encountered a single person fitting the stereotype that Goonerr is preaching about.

As a point, your getting me confused with someone else, i was mearly voicing my opinion, no lecturing, social coding, grammar policing.

and i am not Gooner, ethnic diversity is no worry of mine.

If you have a problem with someone else its usually better to take it up with them instead of using what i said as a catalyst to insult other people.

and also, typing and speaking are 2 different things. Not everyone can type/write as well as they can speak.

Dyslexic people can speak English perfectly but have issues writing/typing, so please take these things into consideration when criticising peoples grammar.

Faylin
18-02-2009, 09:48 AM
You did take the time to use capitals when appropriate this time, so at least belittling you helped improving the quality of your posts.
Next time though, try not starting a new paragraph each sentence, but instead only start a new paragraph when you start a new point in your post.

This would make your post much easier to read!

Haplo
18-02-2009, 09:53 AM
Lisa is in need of a dental plan... oh wait......

Sparna
18-02-2009, 10:13 AM
You did take the time to use capitals when appropriate this time, so at least belittling you helped improving the quality of your posts.
Next time though, try not starting a new paragraph each sentence, but instead only start a new paragraph when you start a new point in your post.

This would make your post much easier to read!

Indeed. i felt the point would be more substantial if i worded it in a more grammatically correct manner.

Also i am sure when you make mistakes or have bad habits you enjoy to have them pointed out profusely hence why you have a habit of doing it to other people....

wait i just found one of your bad habits :rolleyes:

Slicer
18-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Indeed. i felt the point would be more substantial if i worded it in a more grammatically correct manner.

Also i am sure when you make mistakes or have bad habits you enjoy to have them pointed out profusely hence why you have a habit of doing it to other people....

wait i just found one of your bad habits :rolleyes:

I didn't do it to belittle, mock or 'feel big'.

I did it because language is essentially the corner stone of every culture. There's a huge difference between written language and body language. Body language is merely a form of expression that will always be 'right' purely because there is no wrong.

Sparna
18-02-2009, 10:26 AM
Then i misunderstood, i apologise.

but that doesnt mean i cannot understand or communicate my opinions. Maybe i'm just not as good as others, evedently.

Arthran
18-02-2009, 10:23 PM
The oppinions expressed are of far greater importance than mistakes made in grammar when expressing them.


(all mistakes found in my posts can be atributed to my ongoing issues with the writen language, whilst i am elequent in spoken speach and i have always read at a level above my age, i have always found writen word to be my undoing)

or in the words of Cheiftan:
safe bruv.

Slicer
18-02-2009, 10:30 PM
All fine and well, but when an employer has to choose between two people and one of them struggles with reading or writing, which is he going to pick? The foreigner who took the time to learn a second language, or the native?

soulshift
18-02-2009, 10:47 PM
Kinda depends on the job in question. :P

Chonar
19-02-2009, 12:18 AM
Kinda depends on the job in question. :P

Dentist assistant.

Kathra
19-02-2009, 03:09 AM
If it isn't a police state already then it's definitely getting there. Freedom of religion in this country has hit a special new low, and censorship and lack of free speech/press is going nuts. I honestly don't see how more people aren't being annoyed, maybe all the Daily Mail headlines and reality shows are distracting people really fucking well.

The proper beginning was the Damian Green incident. With no proper warrant, Scotland Yard bashed through a prestigious building, bypassing the security and Serjeant at Arms, and shoved him in interrogation for 9 hours after searching his office and examining his personal documents. Even if you choose to ignore the fact they were acting on a tip-off, this shit is VERY rarely done in Parliament, he did nothing illegal and it was a monstrous abuse of power by the Labour Government.

Second, if you saw within the past month or so, Jacqui Smith and Brown are pushing to move cannabis up to a class B drug. Now we wont get into legality or moral discussions, but this move acts as a distinct metaphor for how low our politics have gone. The independant experts that assess drug classification had recommended against upgrading from C to B, the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister use those boards and experts to do the fucking research and testing, then they go AGAINST their expert opinions and ignore the actual evidence. David Cameron announced last year that he had plans to reclassify cannabis because of the stronger strains coming into the UK, which was Jacqui Smiths argument too, and this just goes to show that Brown is willing to bend Government protocol and our fucking freedoms in the interest of pulling the "OMG ANTI WEED" voterbase, and showing that he can be just as anti-drugs and safety conscious as Cameron.

It probably doesn't seem much and if there was a reason for it, nobody would argue. But once you admit to being willing to ignore expert advice to make your own laws based upon both your personal opinion (the independant agencies advised against upping the class because they disagreed with the stronger strain theory) and your political public image, you show the competetive edge that in my opinion at least, doesn't make you a suitable leader.

Also, is anyone getting else getting annoyed by the shock tactics and spins used by the media? Every time I see a new drink driving or anti smoking advert I think i'm watching a Hollywood blockbuster, the specials effects costs must be huge. I love how we as a nation are obviously too ignorant to read, evaluate and conclude information in its raw form, and need it via a medium that scares the living shit out of us.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl0eBeelRPw

Skip to 6:30 for an "on topic" video punchline if you're bored.

Cheiftan
19-02-2009, 08:56 AM
If i remember correctly, cannabis was actually reclassified from B to C by Tony & Co. And not without some controversy. There has always been murmuring from certain sections of society and the media that wanted it switched back to B. It's just politicians being politicians. Vote grabbing? Surely not!

I don't really feel that the state we live in now is any worse that the state we lived in during Thatcher's 80s, or various other points in recent history. The feeling of being stepped on by the man, with governments ignoring expert advice and public opinion and just carrying on as they always have....invariably happens after a decade of one party in power.

thurlog
19-02-2009, 09:37 AM
cba to read anything after seeing the title:

Fear of Freedon of Speech? What A State Britain & The Rest of Europe Has Become?

Über
19-02-2009, 09:41 AM
cba to read anything after seeing the title:

Fear of Freedon of Speech? What A State Britain & The Rest of Europe Has Become?

Nah, you've read the whole thread obviously. And why bother correcting just one mistake in the title? Or maybe you missed the rest of them? :P

thurlog
19-02-2009, 11:51 AM
I've read the OP and stopped there.

Metakerk
19-02-2009, 12:49 PM
Welcome to the Neo-Con Americanization of the rest of the world.

Chonar
19-02-2009, 02:12 PM
Welcome to the Neo-Con Americanization of the rest of the world.

Uuuu. If I go to Neo-Con will I receive a free ingame pet?

Taurusos
19-02-2009, 03:18 PM
LMFAO, ironic isnt it, to talk about freedom of speech, do it in a fucked up manner, like Gooner did, get slandered for it by me and others, and take down the OTD forums? :D

Guess he wasnt that much of a believer of freedom of speech after all.

Gooner, id love to meet you for a chat when im in the UK on the 27th. Ill hear you out sweetie! I will end up staying there and "TEJK JOOR JABZ" :D

Miniloth
19-02-2009, 06:18 PM
Generally everyone else seems to think Brits are generally racist pompous twats, and we have a fair few,

Have to pull you up on this one sorry. Its not "brits" its english, whether it be football abroad or just too much alcohol on a hoilday the english are now tarnished, the problem is that too many think that they have the god given right to act as though its still the middle ages, and just ride roughshod over all of europe, take what they want and expect everyone to fall at their feet.

I will agree with you that this is a minority of the English but when the media potrays you like this the whole world assume that you are all tarred with the same brush.

Goonerr
19-02-2009, 06:29 PM
LMFAO, ironic isnt it, to talk about freedom of speech, do it in a fucked up manner, like Gooner did, get slandered for it by me and others, and take down the OTD forums? :D

Guess he wasnt that much of a believer of freedom of speech after all.

Gooner, id love to meet you for a chat when im in the UK on the 27th. Ill hear you out sweetie! I will end up staying there and "TEJK JOOR JABZ" :D

Seriously, wtf are you on about? Firstly i couldn't give a fuck if i get slandered or called names on here, it's the fucking internet and shit doesn't mean anything!

Secondly, "take down the OTD forums"... The forums are still up, allways have been and allways will be, why the fuck would i take them down just because of you?

Last but not least, now you come out with the personally threats about meeting me and trying to do something? But lets not forget, you are really strong and can fuck anyone up right?? big bad taurusos is going to come to the UK and bash out my brains?? fair enough, but are you that THICK that you think there will be no repercussions? You dont know anything about me so before you try threatening to come and do things to me get a clue about who your talking to.

Oh and yea... feel free to get all your friends to post about how strong and evil you are and how you took on 10 men and beat them all and how you get bottled 5 times and still carried on like a killing machine. just LOL

iTank
19-02-2009, 07:37 PM
YES!!

-> popcorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcVca_19o0E) <-

Taurusos
19-02-2009, 08:19 PM
hahaha :D

holy shit now THAT is a reaction lmfao!

you are fucking angrier person than me MATE gooner. And that cant be easy. I never needed pills, I just started relaaaaxing. In your case however, there is lots of gooner matey mate!

Who im talking to? Im talking to a complete fucking douchebag that I would beat the brains out of any given fucking day of the week. People like you deserve to be treated like dirt. And dirt is stomped on.

However, the part when I went on bout meeting was actually a JOKE. Like you know, similar jokes, such as them PAKIS "tejking joo jabz". Gooner dude, I piss on you, get over it. Love your avatar as well, makes more sense, middleclass pig. Nothing wrong with being middleclass, but now a piglet...another story.

But in all honesty, I dont think you and me meeting would end up in a bad way. Seriously. We would learn eachother´s opinions and thats it. We would prolly shake heads and wonder what the fuck we were on on the net. You are reacting damn seriously.

So ill try to lighten your mood by quoting Tyson again my sweetie...

I´ll fuck you til you love me faggot.

---

Honestly, you of all people should know I love the trashtalk mumbojumbo little man. Tell me by the way, do you get a hard-on each time you eat a Paki´s curry? Come on, admit it! It does something to you doesnt it. Sitting there thinking like a little pig:

"oink oink, them fekking pakis, ill eat all your tikka oink oink"

Chonar
19-02-2009, 08:29 PM
Ill hear you out sweetie! I will end up staying there and "TEJK JOOR JABZ" :D

Them's fighting words. Threatening Tau is so threatening!

Goonerr
19-02-2009, 09:09 PM
hahaha :D

holy shit now THAT is a reaction lmfao!

you are fucking angrier person than me MATE gooner. And that cant be easy. I never needed pills, I just started relaaaaxing. In your case however, there is lots of gooner matey mate!

Who im talking to? Im talking to a complete fucking douchebag that I would beat the brains out of any given fucking day of the week. People like you deserve to be treated like dirt. And dirt is stomped on.

However, the part when I went on bout meeting was actually a JOKE. Like you know, similar jokes, such as them PAKIS "tejking joo jabz". Gooner dude, I piss on you, get over it. Love your avatar as well, makes more sense, middleclass pig. Nothing wrong with being middleclass, but now a piglet...another story.

But in all honesty, I dont think you and me meeting would end up in a bad way. Seriously. We would learn eachother´s opinions and thats it. We would prolly shake heads and wonder what the fuck we were on on the net. You are reacting damn seriously.

So ill try to lighten your mood by quoting Tyson again my sweetie...

I´ll fuck you til you love me faggot.

---

Honestly, you of all people should know I love the trashtalk mumbojumbo little man. Tell me by the way, do you get a hard-on each time you eat a Paki´s curry? Come on, admit it! It does something to you doesnt it. Sitting there thinking like a little pig:

"oink oink, them fekking pakis, ill eat all your tikka oink oink"


HAH. you allways look down on people dont you, now i see why people called you a cunt in the past, you think your the dogs bolocks, think your hard as fuck when i bet your nothing but a little whimp with a big ego.

And yes i am really angry over the internet, so much that im foaming at the mouth, ofcourse!!

You like to think your the one in control, your a fucking control freak, you think everything you do or say is far more superior than anyone else... your a fucking idiot and you should get a grip. maybe go out and get a woman? oh you got one allready havn't you... oh hold on, no you dont... I WONDER WHY..... ill give as good as i get so fucking deal with it.

Slicer
19-02-2009, 09:11 PM
You need to learn the difference between your and you are.

Goonerr
19-02-2009, 09:14 PM
You need to learn the difference between your and you are.


You need to jump off a bridge and die.

Taurusos
19-02-2009, 09:45 PM
lmao loving this!

Goonerr
19-02-2009, 11:00 PM
lmao loving this!
http://coolmusic.no.sapo.pt/private/retard.jpg

Stabstalker
19-02-2009, 11:04 PM
Tau lets knöll brushaan! haha älskar dig <3

Slicer
19-02-2009, 11:05 PM
Hey it's the first correct usage of your vs you're by Goonerr.

... although someone else probably made that picture.

Leeh
20-02-2009, 12:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twLr-1fmddY&feature=related

Biscitt
20-02-2009, 07:27 AM
Too bad this discussion turned bonkers, there were a few good arguments and points in here, mixed in with the all the hating and delightfully stupid remarks.

I've lived in one of the most compact immigrant-ghettos in Denmark for 3 years now, and I have definetely seen some bad examples of foreigners coming here because you get "free money", due to the way the welfare state works. I don't blame it on their religions though. Idiots are universal. And I've met far more Danish idiots than foreign.

Many Christian's aren't better than the majority of the Muslim's. They don't know their religious texts, they apply their religion's morals when THEY find appropriate, not when they're actually supposed to ("No sex before marriage? But this chick will do me for a hamburger! Jesus forgives! WOOOOHOOOO!"), and many of them are hell-bent on pushing their religion in other people's faces at every turn, wether the person is interested or not.

To any atheist that's annoyed with the loud christians, go read the Bible. Get some ammunition. Jesus told us to howl with the wolves were among, and that the holiest man is the man praying in his room, not in the street. The loud christians are so insecure it's embarrassing. Kick their ass, Bible-style. Sure, they also have freedom of speech, same as you, but why does that always have to mean "freedom to be a prejudiced, indoctrinated fuckwad"? That last description goes for people in all camps, by the way.

Yes, I'm a Christian, but damn, those people piss me off...

...and go knock my grammar if you want, I really couldn't care less.

iTank
20-02-2009, 09:03 AM
indeed.

http://klubitus.org/liitteet/1219737419b4.jpg

Haplo
20-02-2009, 10:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twLr-1fmddY&feature=related


My ass.. that one was funny leeh..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2fGl9587X8

Durka Durrr!

And its good to see some good ol fasioned drama again... Anyone got cookies on them?

Sparna
20-02-2009, 11:06 AM
indeed.

http://klubitus.org/liitteet/1219737419b4.jpg

Indeed x2

Metakerk
20-02-2009, 12:04 PM
Uuuu. If I go to Neo-Con will I receive a free ingame pet?

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr282/maumauwow/murcky.jpg

Über
20-02-2009, 12:08 PM
Awesome skills.

Goonerr
20-02-2009, 05:28 PM
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr282/maumauwow/murcky.jpg
http://www.eu-otd.net/images/murcky.jpg

soulshift
20-02-2009, 05:37 PM
Glad to see this topic at least inspires some people to be creative.

Chonar
21-02-2009, 03:47 PM
Oh lawd

Metakerk
23-02-2009, 02:18 AM
<image>

Thank you for destroying the imaginative.

Über
23-02-2009, 11:12 AM
Like there was something left to destroy in the first place. :;V