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Matzumo
11-09-2008, 01:05 PM
Anyone as exited about the changes to feral as me? especially tanking bears to sketch it up what we get in a raid is

- Last stand on 3min cooldown
- Crit immunity from talents only
- 6% extra dodge and 3 rage for every time we dodge with no internal CD - LOL
- 3% less damage taken for each member in our party.
- 10 expertise
- -1.5sec off the mangle CD
- Loads more damage from talents, meaning loads higher TPS.

additionally there're removing crushing blows, they're almost making it to easy for us... ha.

- rooting can now be used indoors, so we can actually CC 2 mobs if there's a beast/dragonkin before pulling.

I think feral cat DPS is still pretty low though, but other than that I don't see any reason whatsoever to complain about the talents. go blizzard.

I am however a little concerned about sharing gear with rogues and having lower armor than warrior tank, at equal gear level, but lets see how it turns out.

Matzumo
11-09-2008, 01:20 PM
I think I'm gonna spec something like this if these talents go live, it's very good for tanking without sacrificing anything crucial for kittey DPS, very naice http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=5030321323222103531203001130100550331200000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Faylin
11-09-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm not excitied at all so far. New feral talents are boring as fuck. And as it is now, avoidance/mitigation looks shit for ferals aswell:
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/2/9679909397-tank-itemization--how-do-druids-compare.html
(although I guess they will balance that out)


I'll most likely play prot warriot come WotlK

Talsin
11-09-2008, 02:05 PM
-beserk only vs fear now and being an uber swipe
-crit immune but huge armor nerf (existing gear down) only rogue gear left so you lose at start round 15k armor on t6
-even with a full party you are still mitigating less than the other tanking classes and not even mentioning the avoidance nerf
-agility confersion killed losing avoidance (yes now its mentioned)
-over stacking of expertise on gear which is already higher on talents, losing hit (yay for taunting..)
huge swipe threat nerf for aoe tps atm (current build)
-lotp not stacking on raid group
-kitty dps allthough claimed to be upped a lot wont scale like the other classes
-itemisation totally borked with rogue leather we need armor from parts like rings necks with armor which will be far and between, and cause of those stats needed not scaling like the others.
-enormous feral tree skill bloating
-the killing of of powershifting with the furor change making the talent making your needed points in resto almost not effective

so far nothing really new for ferals tanking is still the same and lessened compared to the other classes extra abilities.
so no not exited at all so far.

Saha
11-09-2008, 07:59 PM
Hmm, so far it ain't exciting at all.
Still no fix for feral tank scalability in comparison to other tanks. One of the major issues is us using 4 stats less than warriors. Parry, defense, block, strengh. Knowing how itemization works, the less variation of stats on item- the less we are scaling when gear progresses compared to other tanks. Basically, all we'll use is Sta, dodge raiting and agility, that's more than twice less stats to scale your survivability with.
Nerfing dodge from agi was needed, but not to this level.
Itemization. Rogue items. Retarded decisions are retarded. Plx let us dw swords next expansion and implement some crap spell power alike stat. So we can all wear same items and be happy clones.
3 rage per dodge. Yes, rage was certainly a thing feral tank gave a fuck about. "yay".
Attempt to separate cat and bear- talent tree, inscriptions. Possibly the most irritating idea ever.


No crushings is good. However its goodness somewhat decreases with lowering avoidance quite some due to agi nerf. Still a nice change.
Personally I adore furor change. If they fix cat dps that is. It'll have awesome uses for PvP. My bet its getting nerfed however, way too many ways to abuse rogues and warriors, and I think every feral knows what happens to us when those 2 classes QQ.
Tigers fury buff. Took only 3.5 years. Cheers Blizz.
New finisher for cat. Its hot. Hope it doesn't get nerfed. Can't wait to see 10k AP shreds and rips. Why the hell they give us 50% crit on FB in talents with such new finisher? I most likely will not even have FB on hotbar.
Berserk+infected wounds combination in wsg. Almost as awesome as piercing howl.

Faylin
11-09-2008, 08:08 PM
The itemization on feral sets looks silly too.
Crit rating, Ap instead on strength. (Ap is fine you're getting non set rogue gear, but why on druid sets)

A separate tank and dps set might have been a good idea too, but no. Looks like ferals will be the only out of tanking classes with no gear for them. Welcome back, vanilla WoW!

Flawless
11-09-2008, 10:50 PM
Could and hopefully will change before the end of beta.

Matzumo
12-09-2008, 07:33 AM
Hmm.. didn't know about all the negative changes to stats, agi and itemazation ie. and yeah feral tanks need highest armor and HP that was made us different from other tanks, and useful to bring to a raid =/

Talsin
12-09-2008, 10:05 AM
Hmm.. didn't know about all the negative changes to stats, agi and itemazation ie. and yeah feral tanks need highest armor and HP that was made us different from other tanks, and useful to bring to a raid =/

glad we could bring you down to our level of happiness, welcome to being a druid.

soulshift
12-09-2008, 10:15 AM
I don't like being negative about upcoming content, but in all honesty, I have to agree with the posts above. :(

Kathra
12-09-2008, 10:20 AM
Sigh.

Being given root indoors is like being given your favourite childrens toy.


On your 40th Birthday.

Saha
12-09-2008, 11:26 AM
I'm not excitied at all so far. New feral talents are boring as fuck. And as it is now, avoidance/mitigation looks shit for ferals aswell:
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/2/9679909397-tank-itemization--how-do-druids-compare.html
(although I guess they will balance that out)


I'll most likely play prot warriot come WotlK

Ohh, how did I miss this earlier. Haha.
Lets see why MMO-champ+quote of random person from official forums is unlimited amount of awesomeness.
5 parts check.
cloak check.
shield check.
staff no check.

Here's a bit more reliable calculation (sadly don't remember where I took it already, but I think it was used by Toskk in some nerdlike math):

Druid Item Set:
Naxx 10 Druid Feral Set (all 5 pieces)
Neck: Amulet of Autopsy
Back: Cloak of Armed Strife
Wrist: Cuffs of Dark Shadows
Waist: Blistered Blet of Decay
Feet: Boots of the Worshipper
Ring: Deflection Band
Weapon: Staff of the Plague Beast
Off-Hand: (Empty due to 2Her)

Armor: 27121; (Assumes Dire Bear Form, Thick Hide, Survival of the Fittest)
Block: 0%; 0 BV (Can't block)
Avoidance: 18.11%; (Assumes Survival of the Fittest)
Health: 14341; (Assumes Dire Bear Form, Hearth of the Wild, Survival of the Fittest)
Sockets: 1 Meta, 5 Red, 0 Blue, 2 Yellow

*****

Death Knight Item Set:
Naxx 10 Death Knight Tank Set (all 5 pieces)
Neck: Amulet of Autopsy
Back: Cloak of Armed Strife
Wrist: Minion Bracers
Waist: Girdle of the Ascended Phantom
Feet: Plague-Impervious Boots
Ring: Deflection Band
Weapon: Slayer of the Lifeless
Off-Hand: Slayer of the Lifeless (chose to go DW since an early frost talent synergizes with DW)

Armor: 22883 (Assumes Frost Presence, Toughness)
Block: 0%; 0 BC (Can't Block)
Avoidance: 26.23%
Health: 10920;
Sockets: 1 Meta, 3 Red, 3 Blue, 1 Yellow

*****

Warrior Item Set:
Naxx 10 Warrior Tank Set
Neck: Medallion of the Disgraced
Back: Cloak of Armed Strife
Wrist: Minion Bracers
Waist: Waistguard of the Tutor
Feet: Plague-Impervious Boots
Ring: Deflection Band
Weapon: Slayer of the Lifeless
Off-Hand: Crygil's Discarded Plate Panel

Armor: 22993; (Assumes Toughness)
Block: 11.49%; 995 BV; (Assumes Shield Mastery, Vitality)
Avoidance: 21.11%
Health: 11655; (Assumes Vitality)
Sockets: 1 Meta, 5 Red, 2 Blue, 0 Yellow

*****

Paladin Item Set:
Naxx 10 Warrior Tank Set
Neck: Medallion of the Disgraced
Back: Cloak of Armed Strife
Wrist: Minion Bracers
Waist: Waistguard of the Tutor
Feet: Plague-Impervious Boots
Ring: Deflection Band
Weapon: Slayer of the Lifeless
Off-Hand: The Skull of Ruin

Armor: 22993; (Assumes Toughness)
Block: 14.38%; 1030 BV; (Assumes Shield Specialization, Divine Strength)
Avoidance: 17.62%
Health: 12942; (Assumes Sacred Duty, Combat Expertise)
Sockets: 1 Meta, 0 Red, 5 Blue, 2 Yellow

*****

CONSOLIDATED VALUES:

Armor:
Druid: 27121
Paladin: 22993
Warrior: 22993
Death Knight: 22883

Block:
Paladin: 14.38%; 1030 BV
Warrior: 11.49%; 995 BV
Death Knight: Can't Block
Druid: Can't Block

Avoidance:
Death Knight: 26.23%
Warrior: 21.11%
Druid: 18.11%
Paladin: 17.62%

Health:
Druid: 14341
Paladin: 12942
Warrior: 11655
Death Knight: 10920


Giving feedback on shit changes is good, however plx check before posting, specially if its MMO-champ and alike shite sites;)

Talsin
12-09-2008, 12:11 PM
Yes that was Toskk, on 2 builds ago, his point was that as druids don't have a niche and now are lower in avoidance/mitigation and scale worse with itemisation, it will be hard to get equal footing and will get behind in futher gearing as the slots druids will need to get their extra;s from will be statted to lose vs the other tanks who can get their stats up from the same slots.

and the point was that tool wise vs the other classes and gaining nothing new druids are still the same in how they tank, without the extra's allthough they are not wanting to give barkskin to bears which still wont get them up much but its a start.
raid utility wise is where the most work must be tho, next to better adaptation for scaling and gear. there are some new posts out there for a removal of fap for a scaling converter and duel wielding. (or giving parry even)
There will be a lot of tweaks still to come so we cant fully say how bad or good its going to be ofc, but so far the lack of a clear direction for feral's and the splitting of the tank/dps role is not encouraging. i for one am not fond of becoming an oom tank as a hp soak. specially not with racials changing (which affects druids most, taurens losing hp, and ne's getting 2% dodge)

Faylin
12-09-2008, 12:29 PM
Giving feedback on shit changes is good, however plx check before posting, specially if its MMO-champ and alike shite sites;)

I kinda expected one of you guys to correct it if it was wrong, so thanks ;)

Saha
12-09-2008, 06:19 PM
Yes that was Toskk, on 2 builds ago, his point was that as druids don't have a niche and now are lower in avoidance/mitigation and scale worse with itemisation, it will be hard to get equal footing and will get behind in futher gearing as the slots druids will need to get their extra;s from will be statted to lose vs the other tanks who can get their stats up from the same slots.

Yes, scalability is huge issue. Another issue is raid utility, with rampage giving same 5% crit aura it becomes very hard. Add to that the horrible talent tree and it goes out of hand.
Personally I am considering to drop imp LotP due to lack of talent points as soon as I ding 80 (not soloing anymore), which atm is quite nice raid utility option (in Kara raid (lol) with 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 spriest my imp LotP actually did more effective healing than Spriest did and about 20% of solo healers effective healing). I will skip 3talent points for 30% swipe dmg and will press buttons like mad on multiple trash tanking. Ironically, I'll be spending 2 points for 1 extra second on feral bash/pounce which is completely useless talent PvE wise, but I'll be still lacking 4 points to get goodies in feral tree. So basically, there's overall lack of 10+points to get proper feral spec. Its completely irritating and that's being modest. You're forced to pick up shit talents and lack points for something which are crucial, even when skipping half of "best" points.
I really want to have god damn infected wounds to not rely on dps warriors TCing during fights like M'uru and to be finally not out of range in PvP.
I really want to have Feral Aggression for imp demo roar, to not rely on dps warriors demo shouting on fights like M'uru even more.
Please Holo, don't reroll. I need you.
I really want to have Master Shapeshifter to not be OOM druid in PvP and to add that little bit more scalability (which druids lack most) to both bear and cat.
I really want to have Imp MotW to never ever see "a more powerful buff is already active" with 2 mins remaining again.
Nurturing Instincts, Intensity, Feral Instinct, imp LotP...
But I can't. :(

Niche... Its to be seen I guess. TPS scalability of druids got major buff from new talents (King of the Jungle, Imp Mangle, Rend and Tear) and some buffs of old ones (Savage Fury). Admittedly I haven't done extensive prot warriors/paladins/roflknights research yet but there's simply no way I'll not make Crash cry on Void Reaver (I did it twice with Wrath and that was best time I had as a tank in TBC, hello t4 druid please let us tank too) and Bloodboil type of bosses with scalability of WotLK bears TPS. We'll still remain best TPR/TPM/TPwhatever tanks as well. Those 2 however is not quite enough, yet.



I kinda expected one of you guys to correct it if it was wrong, so thanks
:)

Talsin
16-09-2008, 10:26 AM
well Barkskin in bear still isnt in the build plans allthough they claim it will be in, so will the Ilopt talent regain mana it seems.

but for a great comparison between All tank class please check this out.

It's a long ass post but it has some cliff notes for the lazy ill post here

Cliff Notes Version:

Current Tank survivability:
Warriors = Best Boss Tanks
Death Knights and Druids = Not best, but not worst.
Paladins = Worst Boss Tanks


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9956358807&sid=2000&pageNo=1

Eidriaen
20-09-2008, 09:21 AM
I've been feral since I started playing this game... should be around 3 years now? It's also been my main, I didnt create an alt over lvl 30 untill 2-3 months ago :P It's safe to say I love playing feral druid, but these new changes didnt really seem like they were "omgwoot!" material. Only thing that looked really cool was the cat version of feral charge. Where u leap behind your target.

I'll probably try out balance instead, that looked like fun :P