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Kinshara
20-07-2008, 12:55 PM
So, seems pets will finally be useful:

http://war-tools.com/t56207.html -- each pet gets one of those 3 trees, depending on species. Some very nice abilities in there.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28573-hunter_wotlk_talents_abilities_discussion/p2/#post817119 -- lists the per-species specials.


http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?hunter -- main talent tree; 51 pointers are a little odd. BM's needs more explanation, but I guess we either get to tame new species with it (dragonkin?) or elites stay partially buffed above other pets of that type. Not sure how much difference 5 points will make yet.

Chimera shot -- won't add much damage to serpent or drain much more than viper if used between the final two ticks, but can potentially be used to burn mana before the sting is dispelled and reclaim the mana you spent. I don't think there's any way the scorpid effect will work on bosses -- 60% damage reduction on command would be insane.

Explosive shot -- AoE, hrm. 3 ticks apparently, decent damage.
Hunting party + Expose weakness will be fantastic for raids.


PvPwise... I'm actually tempted to pick Kin back up again; the new abilities and revamp of the pets should make it much more interactive and fun again. ('Course, that would involve resubscribing. I'll wait for a little more info first, I think).

Klüft
20-07-2008, 05:17 PM
Overall, I think blizz have made a great job with both the hunter and pet talents. Looks like the MM tree will finally be viable in raids again. Though im not sure MM is better for pure dps then BM, remains to be seen.

The chimara shot seems like the only really bad thing, the instant dmg with serpent is just a joke, def. not worth 2 gcd for that small amount of dmg. Viper; well just seems like a waste aswell. Scorpid sting seems to op to be true. If this works on bosses, the MM hunter will be forced to use 2 gcd every 10sec to keep this up.

The surv. tree seems to be a really nice support spec and extremly viable.

From the looks of it all raid specs will involve speccing Carefull aim since u now get 100% of your int as AP. (Leather will not longer be the best dps gear for hunters=)

All pet trees looks very cool. Both the dps n tank spec seems viable in raids. Tank spec since u can get 40sec of another last stand for your tanks in every fight Dont know if readiness affect these cds or not, but if they do soft enrages will be alot easier with 1,2mins of Last stand/dodge.

The new skills for each family seems like fun, though some probably will be change, e.g
Dust Cloud
Kick up an obscuring cloud of dust, lowering the chance for enemies to hit by 30%. Effects last 8 sec.
(50 Focus, Instant, 20 sec cooldown)

Just sounds to insane, suspect every single boss is immune to this, otherwise hunters will be forced to bring some damn tallstriders into the raid=)

Cheiftan
22-07-2008, 11:15 AM
MM does look better, i'll give you that. But i still think it suffers from slowdown in the middle. As before there are some early talents in the MM which are a must-have for all hunters - although this time they are available slightly earlier, which is a bonus. There are some nice talents towards the end as well, but if you go MM for raid dps, you still end up taking some talents you don't really want or aren't fussed about, just to get to the next tier. Unlike in BM, where there are too many good ones to fit them all in, almost.

As it stands I can't see BM losing it's place as the raid dps spec of choice.

I had a go at penning a possible spec, but without knowing more about the final BM talent, it's hard to say. What would also be good to know is how the itemisation will work in WOLTK - particularly regarding how much intellect will actually be on mail items.

Klüft
22-07-2008, 04:08 PM
Well the first and foremost reason why BM will lose its trone is that haste will affect hunters completly diffrent. As it is now the 20% increased speed, yields a much more efficient way of dps, i.e no idle gaps in the rotation.
The only way atm u can fix this as surv/mm is to stack haste and stack alot of it or/and get a fast bow. U can never close the gap by just introducing specials after the steady and just before autos.

However in the expansion autos will never be of any conserns since they cant be cliped or delayed any more. So the 20% increased speed from the BM tree that is so sweet atm, will only affect the auto-dps, which isent all that much.

Though since I havent tried or seen any wws reports from diffrent rotations with diffrent specs from wolk, this is ofc just pure speculation from my part.

Cheiftan
22-07-2008, 04:19 PM
autoshot dps accounts for a rather large proportion of hunter dps.

i'm not sure i completely understand what you're getting at anyway - the 20% increased attack speed only ever affected autoshot, it never changed the casting time of steady shot.

Arthran
22-07-2008, 04:28 PM
currently: too much haste will make your autoshots and specials clip with each other and screw your rotation
wotlk: autoshot doesnt clip with specials, so stack more haste for uber autoshot dps with specials not clipping

Cheiftan
22-07-2008, 04:34 PM
there is a difference between the 20% speed bonus in BM talents, and Haste.

the 20% only affected autoshots. Haste affects everything, including the GC since a (semi)recent patch.

i know steady and auto have now been uncoupled (so we can almost certainly say byebye to one-button macros), but this change won't stop BM being the best raid dps tree; as like i said, autoshot accounts for a large part of dps - quite often the largest single contributor infact.

Klüft
22-07-2008, 05:00 PM
Well what I mean by the changed affect of haste, is that haste isent the main attribute for the dps-rotation.
In the current state the aim is to perfect a steady/auto rotaion with as little deadtime in betweent he 2 as u can. Without BM spec the only way to do this is stacking haste to get the normalized auto shot time down to 2secs (something BM spec does for u).

An u are wrong about the 20% not influencing steady shots, the shot itself will fire 20% earlier then 1,5sec, though the gcd remains at 1,5sec. Same as Aim shot.
And what does this do? Well since autoshots have 0.5sec casttime (also affected by the 20%), it can begin 20% earlier then before. All in all this will means that a complete steady/auto rotation will be lower. The absolut minimum is 1,5sec (gcd of steady) for the complete rotation, something u may experience during rapid fire.

In wolk both the firing time of steady and auto will be affected by this 20%, Though autos are now completly independent of specials. Meaning the 20% faster steady-cast will mean absolutly crap, since the gcd is the only thing of concern. (I dont know if gcd will be affected or not).
The rotations in wolk will only be <---------gcd------><-------gcd------->, meaning that all hunter will only spam steady shot (adding kill shots under 20%). Arcane will be crap since it has the same gcd as steady and not higher dmg/shot. The instant part of the shot will mean nothing.

Arthalet
22-07-2008, 08:48 PM
So hunters basicle only has to push 1 buttom like warlocks current do ?

Kinshara
22-07-2008, 09:34 PM
So hunters basicle only has to push 1 buttom like warlocks current do ?

BM hunters might, at least until 20%.

MM should be more interesting since Imp. Steady Shot has a chance to increase the damage of your other shots; whether it's worth using multi/arcane/kill when the proc isn't active is a good question.

SV might have Explosive/3xSteady or something similar.



MM's main problem might be lack of mana regen -- SV has hunting party and thrill of the hunt to regen, BM now has the insane invigoration/cobra strikes synergy(which I expect will get a nerf before the final release).


Of course... you might need to micro your pet's focus a little to get the most dps out of it; the "Rabid" ability is similar to warriors' rampage, and costs 60 focus; if your pet has a focus dump on autocast you might not keep it up. Same with some of the species-specific abilities.

Sloth
22-07-2008, 09:38 PM
So hunters basicle only has to push 1 buttom like warlocks current do ?

Uhm, hunters are doing that at the moment too :p

Karadros
23-07-2008, 12:06 AM
Wut?

I push, send pet, intimidate, some manner of sting, steady/aimed, the other one, mayhaps an arcane.

Vegelus
23-07-2008, 06:44 AM
Maybe when lvling, but not when raiding.

Arthalet
23-07-2008, 08:39 AM
I mean without timing it with autoshot timer.

Klüft
23-07-2008, 09:38 AM
Well we have a makro doing the timing for us, either a makro that shots a steady then w8s for the following auto and shots another steady again. Or we use a makro spamming both steady n auto as much as possible. Which we use are haste-dependent and optimized for a diffrent range of speed.
Me as a surv. hunter ofc rotate in specials after steadys, atleast aslong untill I get the right amount of haste so I dont have to anymore.

Arthalet
23-07-2008, 10:20 AM
Oh okay.

Vegelus
23-07-2008, 12:27 PM
Blagh, from EJs:
Source WotLK Wiki (http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Hunter)

# Camouflage: (Level 68, 5 min cooldown) You Camouflage, causing you to blend in with your surroundings. Instantly removes all physical and spell debuffs, and you fade into an improved invisibility state. Camouflage will break after the you deal damage. Lasts until cancelled. Removed in beta 8634

Bye bye 2nd FD.
Now, someone had found any, *really* good news for us about new spell in WotLK? I don't believe which Bear Trap is what we need about CC or PvP contest.

Vegelus
23-07-2008, 01:12 PM
And one more thing I haven't seen anywhere else.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Aaf9hl_Eua8

Volley scaling with AP, w/o CD and critting? We have aoe...

Vegelus
29-07-2008, 11:49 AM
Yep, we can tame devilsaurs with 51pts in BM
Devilsaurs... are... AWESOME! Seriously - I am speccing into Exotic pets no matter what.

Also currently, much like the Raptor's ability, it is *not* +Attack power by +Damage on the effect. Devilsaur's Monstrous Bite gives them Monstrous Growth - which Grows them in addition to giving +15% Damage at a 3 stack. They just get big and look awesome and still have their really loud sounds.

Oh man, Bestial Wrath + 3x Monstrous Growth Devilsaur = win.


Devilsaur normal: http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7801/devilsaur1ws5.jpg

Devilsaur with 3x Monstrous Growth: http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9439/devilsaur2ad9.jpg

Devilsaur with 3x Monstrous Growth + Bestial Wrath: http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5959/devilsaur3iv6.jpg.

Aggromedon
31-07-2008, 07:34 AM
Holy shit that looks awesome, can't wait to try one out myself. :D

Timothy
31-07-2008, 08:52 AM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8557246019&sid=2000&pageNo=2#24

especially the plans for integration into the new mount/non-combat pet system sound awesome

Vegelus
02-08-2008, 12:23 PM
From new build:

Two new stable slots are available for your pets ! The respective price for the 4th and 5th slots is 50 and 150 gold.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/july/stableslots.jpg

Cheiftan
03-08-2008, 08:39 AM
damn that's some good stable loving. it's about time we got more slots. and it would be super win to do away with stable masters altogether.

Kinshara
14-08-2008, 07:56 PM
We'll be making Master's Call and Deterrence both base.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765786325&pageNo=1&sid=2000#7

Flawless
14-08-2008, 09:44 PM
and hunters all over the world sang out with praise and then jizzed themselves.

Vegelus
14-08-2008, 10:57 PM
and hunters all over the world sang out with praise and then jizzed themselves.

Nah. That will be when they either make scatter trainable or bring camuflage back.

Flawless
14-08-2008, 11:03 PM
some people are never happy.

Vegelus
14-08-2008, 11:17 PM
Aye, not that it will change anything for me, as those won't be so much needed in pve. Tho I'd like to see camuflage in action - one of things people been asking for since... dunno autumm 2005?

Ruoste
15-08-2008, 09:01 AM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765641217&pageNo=3&sid=2000#44
Disengage - This is being changed in a future build. What it will do is cause the Hunter to jump back instantly 10-15ish yards to gain distance. 30 second cooldown.

Intimidation - We'd like to make this instant instead of relying on the pet's next attack.

Muffy
15-08-2008, 09:30 AM
and hunters all over the world sang out with praise and then jizzed themselves.

rofl!

Vegelus
15-08-2008, 09:54 AM
It looks like devs are reading our forums. Catching up on EJ's and that change to Disengage was already proposed few days ago.

Ruoste
15-08-2008, 10:39 AM
The new survival tree is crazy http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents2.html
Exciting stuff but some of that is going to be nerfed still I bet. It reads almost like a fan made fake tree (with all the typos and op talents).

Here's some of it:

T.N.T.
Rank: 3/3
Requires 5 points in Survival Talents
Your Immolation Trap, Explosive Trap and Explosive Shot have a 15% to stun targets for 2 sec when they deal damage, and increases the critical strike chance of your Explosive Shot and Explosive Trap by 15%.

Survival Tactics
Rank: 2/2
Requires 10 points in Survival Talents
Reduces the chance your Feign Death ability will be resisted by 4%, and reduces the cooldown of your Disengage ability by 4 sec. (nice with the upcoming disengage change)

Lock and Load
Rank: 3/3
Requires 15 points in Survival Talents
You have a 100% chance when you trap a target and a 15% chance when you Sting a target to cause your next 3 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot spells to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana and consume no ammo.

Hunter vs. Wild
Rank: 3/3
Requires 5 points in Survivalist
Requires 20 points in Survival Talents
Increases you and your pet's attack power and ranged attack power equal to 30% of your total Stamina.

Hunting Party
Rank: 5/5
Requires 3 points in Thrill of the Hunt
Requires 45 points in Survival Talents
Your Arcane Shot, Explosive Shot and Steady Shot critical strikes have a 100% chance to restore 2% mana, 10 energy, 4 rage or 10 Runic Power to all members of your party.

Lock and load, whoa. No cd on Hunting Party anymore, whoa (even if it doesn't trigger on auto-shot anymore). Looks like I'll be staying survival.

Vegelus
15-08-2008, 11:25 AM
Changes in BM aren't big but seems to be nice. Spirit Bond more useful (but still not THAT nice to take it), Aspect Mastery as a lowtier one pointer and new Seperation Anxiety in place of old Aspect Mastery - seems like another Animal Handler for me.

Timothy
15-08-2008, 03:28 PM
Curses ... Blizzard making it hard for me to decide if I should level as beastmaster or survival hunter. :P

If cooldown on Hunting Party is really gone then I certainly see no mana problems for the group ever.

Is it me or would T.N.T + Entrapment grant Explosive Traps a 40% chance to aoe "disable" targets ?

Kinshara
15-08-2008, 06:04 PM
http://files.filefront.com/WotLK+Solo+Onyxia+Hunter/;11466554;/fileinfo.html

Man, that's a nice pet talent. Nerf inc.

Ruoste
16-08-2008, 04:19 AM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765641671&pageNo=1&sid=2000#16
- Distracting Shot will now be a "Mocking Blow"-esque taunt (so it will taunt the mob onto the Hunter for 6 sec). This will allow you to "peel" monsters to you (and thus to a trap) a lot easier than it is now.
- Freezing Trap will no longer break on damage 100% of the time. It will still break on damage, but on x amount. So if the mob has a DoT on them, or the mob gets cleaved while in Freezing Trap, it won't just immediately break. Because of this, we're canning Bear Trap (since Freezing Trap will accomplish what Bear Trap was intended for, plus you guys have enough keybinds as it is). Note that we don't intend Freezing Trap to be a stun, so the tuning on how much damage will break it will be important.
- Camouflage - We'll be introducing this new spell at level 80. It will give you limited stealth capabilities. A bonus with it is that you can lay your traps while Camouflaged and it won't break the stealth, allowing you to setup your traps before a pull if desired.
- Trap Mastery - This talent will be a 1-point talent now, we've condensed a lot of the trap talents in the Survival tree. It will do stuff like increase damage of Immolate, root the dispeller of your Freezing Trap in ice, increase the number of snakes from your snake trap, etc.

Distracting shot will give some new fun stuff to do in raids/groups. I wonder if it will work with misdirection too.
Camouflage is coming back!

Timothy
16-08-2008, 10:03 AM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765641671&pageNo=1&sid=2000#16


Distracting shot will give some new fun stuff to do in raids/groups. I wonder if it will work with misdirection too.
Camouflage is coming back!

O M G

Moonblazed
18-08-2008, 11:11 AM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765641671&pageNo=1&sid=2000#16


Distracting shot will give some new fun stuff to do in raids/groups. I wonder if it will work with misdirection too.
Camouflage is coming back!

my thoughts exactly;
Interesting to find out how it will affect the use with misdirection, since it no longer generates threat in that sense.

Regicide
22-08-2008, 12:41 PM
Will be very interesting to see when used with misdirection :)

As for comouflage - woohoo!, though what are they going to give us night elves in return? :(

Bunneh
22-08-2008, 04:44 PM
Less caffeine? Stop twitching for fucks sake. :P

Senex
22-08-2008, 04:52 PM
As for comouflage - woohoo!, though what are they going to give us night elves in return? :(
The same thing that NE rogues get, presumably (extra +1 level vs. stealth detection).

Ruoste
29-08-2008, 07:35 AM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/12/9336795321-302--on-debuffs-buffs-and-raid-stacking.html

Here's the hunter stuff.

Beastmaster:
Ferocious Inspiration: Percentage Damage Increase

Marksman:
Trueshot Aura: Attack Power Buff (Multiplier)

Survival:
Expose Weakness: Buffs only self.
Hunting Party: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on specified shots.

I assume Ferocious Inspiration will give certain percentage of more damage to whole raid but does not stack. Does not stack with Sanctified Retribution.

Trueshot Aura will multiply everyone's AP with some amount. Won't stack with Abomination's Might or Unleashed Rage.
Hunter's mark bonus won't grow and Improved Hunter's Mark won't give melee ap.

Survival hunter will be at least as effective mana battery as shadow priest. But does having a survival hunter and shadow priest in the same raid stack the manaregen?
EW gives AP only to the hunter. :( Understandable I guess, it'd go to 500+ AP soon at 80.

Edit: fixed the info about Hunter's Mark

Timothy
29-08-2008, 09:31 AM
Hunter's Mark: No longer increases attack power bonus from attacks against the target.
Improved Hunter's Mark: No longer grants melee attack power.

These two lines got me confused then as it doesn't sound like its growing or affecting our pets to begin with.

Kinshara
29-08-2008, 09:35 AM
Survival hunter will be at least as effective mana battery as shadow priest. But does having a survival hunter and shadow priest in the same raid stack the manaregen?

I suspect the regen buff won't stack on any given character. But if those that receive the buff then leave the lowest 10, another proc could probably grant the regen to more than 10 people overall.

'Course, it's quite possible that procs (from any of the 3 classes with the regen) will happen often enough that having a second battery is largely redundant. So you can bring one of ret pally, survival hunter, or spriest to provide the raid regen; a second would provide backup in case the first died, but probably won't provide additional regen.

Just looking at the 3 on their own, I'd say that ret pallies would provide the most raid utility; however, since their other buffs won't stack either, the need to bring X pallies for all the blessings is reduced, and there are other melee haste buffers as well. So any of the 3 will work.

It's a big change, and one I'm still not sure of, but I can see why they're doing it.

Ruoste
29-08-2008, 09:40 AM
These two lines got me confused then as it doesn't sound like its growing or affecting our pets to begin with.


I somehow missed those lines. :(

So what the first line means is that the AP bonus will NOT grow at all when you shoot the target (it was supposed to grow up to 1200 before). The second line is that Improved Hunter's Mark won't turn the mark into giving melee ap (so they are going to have to change IHM).

Ruoste
29-08-2008, 09:48 AM
I suspect the regen buff won't stack on any given character. But if those that receive the buff then leave the lowest 10, another proc could probably grant the regen to more than 10 people overall.

'Course, it's quite possible that procs (from any of the 3 classes with the regen) will happen often enough that having a second battery is largely redundant. So you can bring one of ret pally, survival hunter, or spriest to provide the raid regen; a second would provide backup in case the first died, but probably won't provide additional regen.

I was thinking along those lines as well. If you have more than 10 mana users, then a second mana battery might be beneficial. Also the odds that all mana users have the buff up always is increased with 2 mana batteries.

Kinshara
30-08-2008, 09:25 AM
Aspect of the viper changed to: The hunter takes on the aspect of the viper, instantly regenerating mana equal to 100% of the damage done by any ranged attack or ability, but reduces your total damage done by 50%. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

From mmo-c, latest patch notes. Somewhat odd change, but basically means we'll never run oom.

Vegelus
30-08-2008, 11:04 AM
Aye, now it's more like our little evosomething.
Tho HM (and Imp HM - which now sux a bit again) and Expose Weakness changes are strange for me. Well, other buff/debuff changes are strange too so meh.

Kinshara
06-09-2008, 01:53 PM
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?pet=45#abilities

/giggle


Screenies:

http://digitalkore.net/~matthew/images/wow/wotlk/corehound/WoWScrnShot_090608_015814.jpg
http://digitalkore.net/~matthew/images/wow/wotlk/corehound/WoWScrnShot_090608_020103.jpg
http://digitalkore.net/~matthew/images/wow/wotlk/corehound/WoWScrnShot_090608_020125.jpg

Vegelus
06-09-2008, 02:05 PM
One from draenei start zone:
http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot090608001930yu7.jpg

Ruoste
11-09-2008, 06:15 AM
First wave of nerfs is here. I don't think I like the new aspect of the viper... Favours slow weapons with a lot of haste rating. Some of these will be tuned back up a bit still though. For example lock and load will be 2 charges + chance to proc on sting ticks. Which finally makes the serpent sting glyph worthwhile for survivals.

Most Pet Skills - All ranks had a slight damage increase or decrease.
Froststorm Breath - All ranks now slow for 5 seconds.
Glyph of Aimed Shot - Now only reduces the cooldown by .5 seconds instead of 1
Lock and Load - Now only affects your next shot, not the next 3.
T.N.T. - Chance to stun only on when trap lands, and now increase the critical strike chance of your Explosive Shot and Explosive Trap by 3/6/9%, down from 5/10/15%
Kill Shot - Now deals 200% weapon damage plus [RAP * 0.3 + 400.0] instead of weapon damage plus [RAP * 0.15 + 2500.0].
Hunting Party - Effect now listed as lasting for 15 seconds.
Master's Call - Can no longer be cast while stunned.
Aspect Mastery - Aspect of the Monkey - Reduces the damage done to you while active by 5%, down from 10%. Aspect of the Hawk - Increases the attack power bonus by 30%, down from 50%.
Cobra Strikes - Only next 2 of pets attacks will benefit, down from 3.
Invigoration - Now gives a 50/100% chance to instantly regenerate 1% mana instead of giving instant regen of 1/2% of mana.
Improved Steady Shot - Now only reduces mana cost by 20%, down from 40%.
Aspect of the Viper - Now each ranged attack regenerates a percentage of maximum mana equal to base ranged weapon speed, down from 100% of damage done. Still incurs 50% less damage.
Deterrence - No longer gives a 60% chance to resist all spell attacks for 10 sec

Ruoste
12-09-2008, 07:24 AM
Misdirection cooldown will be reduced to 30 seconds which will bring it down to same cd as the new rogues' Tricks of the Trade.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/3/9679804534-suggestion-misdirection.html

A couple of rogues and hunters in a raid will give the tank(s) quite a tpm boost.

Vegelus
12-09-2008, 01:10 PM
Is it possible to use ToT and MD in the same time on one target? Anyone knows?

Ruoste
12-09-2008, 02:01 PM
Is it possible to use ToT and MD in the same time on one target? Anyone knows?

There is no info on this yet. But it's possible that there will be some kind of restrictions. Blue posted that they didn't want raids be forced to take 5 rogues for TotT rotations for example.

Ruoste
18-09-2008, 05:23 AM
I was looking at the skill list for new build and noticed this:

Freezing Arrow
Rank 1

Fire a freezing arrow that places a Freezing Trap at the target location, freezing the first enemy that approaches, preventing all action for up to 20 sec. Any damage caused will break the ice. Trap will exist for . Only one trap can be active at a time.
3% of base mana, 40 yd range, Instant cast, 30 sec cooldown

It's a level 80 skill and apparently replaces camouflage. It won't exactly be a second wyvern sting with trap arming time and you have to target an area for it. So I don't know how useful it's really going to be. I was really looking forward to camo.

Vegelus
18-09-2008, 07:25 AM
Camo is out again? sigh

And about this new skill - should be nice for some short pulls, now all wannabe mages will be able to "sheep" something. Tho there will be problem with 2nd trap :P.

Regicide
18-09-2008, 10:23 PM
Hmm, I'm not totally disappointed about this change - but does it share the same cd as traps? I'm guessing it would :(

In terms of pvp, even though I'm a NE I would've liked camouflage to be kept instead of the freezing spell, since ranged isn't the problem in pvp, rather the melee.

Not a totally shit change, and I wouldn't mind it if they used that in the end rather than camouflage.

Edit: Changed my mind - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17f6xyVPuvA.

Blizzard are having a f*cking joke, I expected it to be at least 0-0.5 secs, not 2-3 secs, which I must say, absolutely sucks.

Ruoste
22-09-2008, 01:38 PM
The buffed gorilla sure seems nice: http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/09/22/bigredkitty-gorilla/
Up to 2k Thunderstomp crits per mob AOE in the video. I was already thinking of getting one but I'm sure of it now. :)

Ruoste
24-09-2008, 10:54 PM
Things got shaken around a lot again.
first this blue post
I have some good news, and some bad news. First, the bad news. Unfortunately we won't be able to do the Aspect of the Viper change I discussed yesterday (passive instead of requiring you to attack the target) at this time because of technical limitations and its potential to shake up our current balance goals. However, we will evaluate it as an option for a future patch.

Now, the good news.

- Aimed Shot - This shot will now be instant cast, its damage/effect/cooldown will remain unchanged.
- Scatter shot - This will now be an 11-point Survival talent.
- Readiness - This will now be the 21-point Marksmanship talent.
- Trap Mastery - This will now be the 41-point Survival talent. Granted, not very sexy for a 41-pointer but we'll do some changes there in a future patch (after WOLK ships).
- Surefooted is swapping places with T.N.T. (so Surefooted is now in tier 2)

These changes will be live in an upcoming beta build.

Then build 8982 changes.
Beast Mastery
Separation Anxiety - Removed.
-NEW-Kindred Spirits - Increases your pet's damage by 4/8/12/16/20% and you and your pet's movement speed by 2/4/6/8/10% while your pet is active.

Marksmanship
Kill Shot - Required level changed to 75 for rank 1, and 80 for rank 2.
Scorpid Sting - Chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks changed from 3% down from 5%.
Rapid Recuperation - Now 2 points. Mana and focus cost reduction now 30/60% (OLD - 20/40/60%)

Survival
Explosive Shot - Damage reduced.
Freezing Arrow - Trap has a chance to break on damage instead of 100% chance to break on damage.
Lock and Load - Now gives you a 100% chance when you trap a target and a 100% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Serpent Sting to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana, and consume no ammo.
T.N.T. - No longer increases the critical strike chance of Explosive Trap.
Improved Tracking - Changed from all damage to non-periodic damage.

This will take some digesting. Looks like 3.0.2 live is close since they can't do major stuff anymore.

Edit: 100% chance of proc on periodic Serpent Sting damage is a bug and probably should be 15%.

SoniqBoom
25-09-2008, 02:28 AM
Aimed Shot - This shot will now be instant cast, its damage/effect/cooldown will remain unchanged.


LMFAO WTF...........

Ruoste
25-09-2008, 07:18 AM
But,

We'll have to tone down the damage of Aimed Shot actually, probably in the ballpark of less than what it is now but more than what multi-shot does to a single target or arcane shot. We have not yet settled on the appropriate number.

Explosive Shot was nerfed to a joke now. AOE portion of it is just a nuisance that breaks CC and does no real damage. The future new 41 point survival talent might help in the matter... But right now survival looks broken to me. MM looks a lot better, especially since MM can get surefooted soon too.

Sloth
25-09-2008, 06:54 PM
Aimed Shot - This shot will now be instant cast, its damage/effect/cooldown will remain unchanged.


LMFAO WTF...........

That's pretty awesome, I don't get really give a hoop how many damage it does, the more the better of course but it not doing any damage wouldn't really hurt my feelings. It doesnt fit in any shot rotation for pve anyway and at the moment I can count the times I can use aimed shot in arena on my hands after playing a whole night.
Permanent instant mortal strike on a target would be a huge buff.

I think I will be using this build at level 70 if they don't switch too many things around (I might swap one point in MM tree cause of the new pet stuff).

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=cZ0eVcoAzhIsxzVof0hb

If surefooted gets put in tier2 I might get it instead of entrapment, although I see they turned the 50% into 30.

Klüft
26-09-2008, 06:57 AM
Instant aim shot is nice in both pve n pvp imo.
Cant really understand how an instant shot that yields much dmg then steady shot isent part of a pve rotation.
Only aspect that speaks against it, is the huge mana cost, but that is just as important in pvp, if not more.
In pve you can rely to some extent to extrenal mana recovery, e.g JoW, mana totem, wisdom etc.
Im accually kinda glad blizz the road blizz have taken concerning hunter-mana. Looks like you need to take dps'ing as hunter to another level, where u just cant stand n SPAM in AotH, but rather need to aspect dance and both time rapid fire for regain and maximum dmg(if u spec MM).

Im accually pretty glad for any changes that doesent allow mindless hunters to look good, wolk changes overall looks like they do just that.

Klüft
26-09-2008, 09:01 AM
May have posted before thinking=)
You are right sloth, aimed wont be part of a pve rotation since it locks out auto (dont think they have changed that)
Also the rapid regain wasent what I thought, only yields many during rapid killing=)

Vegelus
26-09-2008, 11:51 AM
After that change it's still better than before (for pve). At least for running/gettin out of shit.

Amoxicillin
26-09-2008, 10:26 PM
The buffed gorilla sure seems nice: http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/09/22...kitty-gorilla/
Up to 2k Thunderstomp crits per mob AOE in the video. I was already thinking of getting one but I'm sure of it now.

[Thunderstomp] hit as many mobs that u can get pretty nice.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/walter79/WoWScrnShot_092608_231603.jpg

hope u can see it.had a 3k crit with Thunderstomp on a lvl65.

and coz he is a tank pet hes get 50% more heals in 15k armor aswell coz i when buff pet spec for testing him.

22k none crit heal on him of a pala he was like "WTF 22k NONE CRIT WOOOOOOOW"
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/walter79/22k.jpg

this is on the PTR sever.

Sloth
27-09-2008, 10:48 AM
that 22k is lay on hands though :p

Ruoste
01-10-2008, 05:14 AM
Beast Mastery
Aspect of the Viper reworded - Now: The hunter takes on the aspect of the viper, causing ranged attacks to regenerate mana but reducing your total damage done by 50%. Mana gained is based on the speed of your ranged weapon. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.
Aspect of the Wild - Rank 4 now increases Nature resistance by 130 (up from 70).
Kindred Spirits - Description now includes "This does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects."

Marksmanship
Black Arrow - Fires a Black Arrow at the target, slowing the target's movement speed by 70%. While the movement speed effect holds, the damage done by your ranged shots are increased by 15% on the target. Lasts for 6 sec. 6% base mana, Instant, 35 yard range, 12 second cooldown.
Aimed Shot - Mana cost reduced from 16% to 12% of base mana. Now instant cast. Cooldown increased from 6 seconds to 10 seconds. Ranged damage increase reduced for all ranks.
Concussive Shot - Now has a 12 sec cooldown.
Kill Shot - Now deals 200% weapon damage (down from 205%). Base damage reduced by approx 50% on all ranks.
Multi-Shot - Mana cost increased for 12% to 13% of base mana.
Focused Aim - No longer effects Aimed Shot. Now also increases your chance to hit by 1/2/3%.
Marked for Death - Now increases your damage done by your shots and the damage done by your pet's special abilities by 1/2/3/4/5% (down from 2/4/6/8/10%) on marked targets.
Scatter Shot - Moved from Tier 5 to Tier 3.

Survival
Freezing Arrow - The trap placed by the arrow now breaks on any damage (instead of having a chance to break).
Freezing Trap - Trap now breaks on any damage once again, instead of having a chance to break. ("Any damage caused will break the ice.")
Lock and Load - Now has a 2/4/6% proc chance on periodic damage (down from 5/10/15%).
Point of No Escape - Changes from 3 to 2 points. Now also effects Freezing Arrow. Critical strike chance increase on affected targets is now 3/6% instead of 2/4/6%.
Readiness - Moved from Tier 9 to Tier 5.
Surefooted - Moved from Tier 4 to Tier 2. No longer increases hit chance.
T.N.T. - Moved from Tier 2 to Tier 4
Trap Mastery - Moved from Tier 3 to Tier 9. Now effects Freezing Trap in the same way as Frost Trap (duration increase, instead of root effect on dispell).

So they managed to make Survival even worse. Surefooted lost the +hit and is now a pure pvp talent. Placement of Focused Aim makes survival speccing for level 70 very nasty and 80 isn't fun either.

Scatter Shot is in surv now, which is nice but overall I'm not too happy about these changes.

Don't get excited by the Black Arrow. It's obviously too good.
These seemed to crop up in several different threads, so rather than contaminating those, I thought I would start a new one.

Polar Bear Cub -- This wasn't intended to be a tamable pet, and it looked ridiculous.

Black Arrow -- This was an ability we were experimenting with. It isn't actually in the plan for hunters at this point in time. Usually we hide internal abilities better, but we're trying to get beta builds out quickly and this one slipped through the cracks.

Freezing Trap -- The intent was that this trap break on a flat damage amount. However, we found that pets did not respect traps set up that way as CC and would happily break them. When and if we get the pet AI fixed, we'll revert it to the less fragile form of the trap.

Lock and Load -- The design we settled on is 2/4/6, making it better than Nightfall (for comparison). If it's too low, we'll adjust it.

Aimed Shot -- The intention is that it is better than Multi-Shot against a single target, and that the two share a cooldown so that hunter shot rotations don't get back into crazy land too quickly again.

Ruoste
01-10-2008, 05:33 AM
Aimed now does exactly the same damage as Multi against single target and they share cooldown. Aimed still reduces healing of course.

On my level 72 char in beta:

Aimed Shot
297 mana (12%)
12.5 sec cd (10 sec + weapon speed)
instant cast
205 extra damage

Multi-Shot
334 mana (13%)
10 sec cd
0.5 sec cast
205 extra damage

Edit: Wanted to add that Aimed Shot still triggers Auto cooldown as well. It might be an oversight that they left it in...

Klüft
01-10-2008, 05:12 PM
Im kinda happy in what direction blizz seem to go with the diffrent trees.

Lately all changes seems to go in one direction; Nerf the surv-tree for pve and buff the MM-tree instead. As it looks like now, no pve-hunter will ever spec survival again. Instead this tree is pvp only and for that purpose alone, the tree looks great.
I guess the final move would now to move silence shot to surv. tree since it pretty much is misplaced in MM.

Vegelus
01-10-2008, 05:32 PM
And change it's place with Hunting Party.

Ruoste
01-10-2008, 10:21 PM
Survival still has Hunting Party deep in the tree. That to me is clearly a PvE talent. It's a shame if survival is going to be intented for pvp only. Blizzard had this major plan of making every one of the 30 specs viable for raids. Survival was that briefly in the beta. Even too much so on the expense of other hunter specs.

Patch now looks to be two weeks away. There probably won't be any more major changes so it looks like most pvers will have to spec BM or MM. Hopefully the 41 survival talent will be something good later.

Timothy
02-10-2008, 10:10 AM
Damn ... and I had liked survival for the PvE side.

Looks like pure survival PvE hate now though with almost all key talents gone or significantly changed
... the +3% hit being given to marksman is just the last nail. :-(

Klüft
02-10-2008, 01:50 PM
Well the fact that +3 hit is moved to the t1 MM tree is not that much of a nerf for surv. spec, since u can still get it easy. Though moving up the surv. tree, you lack more nice things to but your points in, you have to put it in semi-crap.
Its kinda smart that all specs of hunters have the chance to get the +%hit.
Also find it nice that the MM tree is full with nice talants in the first 3 tiers, making BM and Surv. hunters pick favorites.

Timothy
02-10-2008, 03:26 PM
Possibly forcing me to waste 3 points in a talent I would normally have skiped,
in a tree where I don't need it and yes forcing me to take crap talents in survival
to get to some of the tier limits.

It's a bad move for survival without doubt or argument.

Regicide
02-10-2008, 06:27 PM
Yeah, definitely not liking the changes they've made to survival, you only have to look at the wow hunter forums to see the amount of hate hunters are giving blizzard for the changes they've made.

Vegelus
02-10-2008, 07:12 PM
Bad changes is one thing. Saying that they will think about changes after expansion is another one -.-.

Timothy
03-10-2008, 01:44 PM
Anyone still doing dps tests on the PTR ?

With all the stuff given to marksman it seems to out-perform beastmaster and survival by a noticeable margin for me now.

Klüft
03-10-2008, 02:45 PM
I think it does aswell.
I more interested in Mana management in wolk for the diffrent specs. And by that I mean in raid fully buffed, totem, wisdom, SP etc.
Mana testing alone unbuffed maters little to me.

Timothy
03-10-2008, 03:06 PM
I have a shaman and a hunter on the PTR and I'm up for some group tests if you find a paladin and a shadow priest or survival hunter.

Vegelus
03-10-2008, 05:18 PM
Anyone still doing dps tests on the PTR ?

With all the stuff given to marksman it seems to out-perform beastmaster and survival by a noticeable margin for me now.

With or without buff? What spec and pet? From what I saw few days ago (haven't heard about any significant changes in BM) BM with cat (Rake might be nerfed a bit) in Naxx with so-so gear was dishing out ~4k dps easily, while on dummies it seemed that MM performs better.
Pets are scaling like crazy atm, with all those multiplicative talents, getting hunter's +hit, seems like they are doing up to 50% of our dmg done. Also, it seems that haste is affecting them (tho it is still speculated) and might be getting part of our ArmPen (as there was blue about warlocks' pets getting part of their SpellPen).

Timothy
04-10-2008, 01:25 PM
I think the builds I used were something along the line of this:

BM (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=ctbMztxRwuMesZ0xVb) / MM (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=cxbZceVbRhzMeoghio) / SV (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=cZ0xVbZe00iobIhxuhhcL)

Pet used in all 3 cases was a cat.
Tested on the target dummies in Orgrimmar without buffs.
I'm always open for suggestions on how to improve these builds
(especially beastmaster ... animal handler was a reflex but not much to put that in anyway since it's needed at low tier
I put the 7 points in beastmaster as marksman since you can't track mechanic target dummies)
but talent points at 70 are darn limiting on the choices available.

Naxx you say ? Is that Naxx on PTR at 70 or in beta at 80 ?

Vegelus
04-10-2008, 01:44 PM
Beta 80s. Old Naxx does not exist anymore on PTRs.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1255/bm1na4.png
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/7267/bm2qz9.png
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3097/bm3qr9.png

No 4k dps on screenshots (that was on his previous run) but those show pet stats (as people were thingking that Rake is terribly bugged and acts like old Scorpid Poison; seems like Rake's dot is bit overpowered, probably ignores armor; also it benefits from bleed efect too, so we might see even higher numbers).

Animal Handler isn't needed talent anymore, as pets are getting our +hit (so any misses reported by dmg meters / wws should be only dodges in fact). Will lurk on EJs later for build he used but iirc it included Kindred Spirits in BM.

Your 70lvl BM build looks like something I'd use, as there is no way to squeeze Careful Aim into it (with my current gear it's ~300RAP raid buffed).
In MM one I think I would remove Wild Quiver (reports say that it isn't that nice) but would definitly find points for Efficiency. Can't say anything about SV but it looks ok.

As for pet it will be something like this (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?petcalc=0md00cc0cz), with maybe moving one point from Spider's Bite to Bloodthirsty.

Timothy
04-10-2008, 01:52 PM
Ah 80 ... so it was another "wait 3 months till WotLK is out and you leveled to 80" post.

Judging from the auto/steady ration you have a ton of haste at 80.

Anyway ... sorry I'm not in beta and right now I wanted to find out what works best at 70. :P

PS: your pet link didn't work ... I used >this< (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?petcalc=0md00cc0cz) for the tests.

Vegelus
04-10-2008, 02:00 PM
Nah it's not me. Cba to go on PTRs, same with beta. I'm just lurking EJs from time to time.

Pet link edited, it's the same build.

Yet another recount post, this time from 25man Naxx. Waiting for one with 3 hunts with stable connection:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28573-hunter_wotlk_talents_abilities_discussion/p139/#post922075

Sloth
04-10-2008, 07:07 PM
I'm not really sure what they are trying to accomplish with hunter pvp in general. I read the official forums tonight and yes they're full of people complaining about how broken their class is (and yes it's the same for every class). But...I can't really say most of those comments are wrong and then when I read blue posts the only thing I can think is "do you even play the game?".
After 4 arena seasons of being the most unpopular class (http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player) all they can think about is not overbuffing hunters in wotlk.

Apparently a premade level 80 character has 2.43% dodge. Correct me if I'm wrong but even priests/warlocks/mages have more. The mechanic got reworked because it's not advantageous for hunters to be in melee range. "Ghostcrawler" makes it look like we can kite warriors/rogues like there is no tomorrow and they should be lucky to get in melee range.

Same thing with putting aimed shot on the same cooldown as multishot. I was hoping for another instant so we could have some more burst damage (funny thing is, removing the dispell on arcane shot is actually a buff against druid teams in the long run, but I doubt that was their intention :)). I guess hunters are just destined to have _really_ long arena games, the average game against another dps/healer is about 10 minutes (speaking from my own experience). After spending 1h30 against another hunter/druid team last night and then 30 mins against a warlock/druid team I get annoyed by these things. Not as annoyed as I would be if we lost (both games could have gone either way and were more down to luck) but I can't really see it getting better. I don't think anyone would like spending an hour for one game.
I know the game is not out yet and you could argue that things are still subject to change but I'm not really liking the way they are going right now.

Ruoste
05-10-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm sure they majorly nerfed dodge from agi because they made Deterrence a base talent. Though I think they went slightly overboard...

One of the blue explanations was that hunters stack a lot of agility, thus we should get less dodge from it.

Vegelus
05-10-2008, 12:42 PM
Those explenations are more retarded than most huntards tbh -.-

Sloth
05-10-2008, 01:41 PM
Okay, but is anyone going to argue that it's advantageous for hunters to be in melee? It's going to happen, sure, but it's not in your best interest for it to happen. The warrior has no way to damage you from range, except heroic throw, which is arguably a ranged ability less effective than your melee abilities. His only hope is to close to melee, in which case you might disengage, wing clip or trap him. If you're also dodging or otherwise escaping a bunch of his attacks, then what is he realistically supposed to do? Your strength is range, and his strength is melee.

Yes there are more ways to get in melee then there are to escape. For games to be fun, offensive has to win out over defense. If you never got touched, and he never got touched, the game would be pretty boring. You'd never see big numbers flying off, and probably to compensate, when an attack did connect, it would need to instagib someone (this is close to the state of things before resilience by the way).

The rock paper scissors of things is that melee take a lot of damage while they are kept at range, and then are very dangerous to the caster when they close the distance. It's the classic archers vs. infantry setup.

You may be too weak against warriors or whoever at the moment. But I also suspect all of you have killed a few dudes in your time before they could even get close to you.

didn't know we could wingclip or trap stuff to get some more range, all my problems are solved now :)
Making deterrence a base skill and not a talent when we have close to 0% dodge is a nerf. I think they're over-simplifying things, you can't kite warriors/rogues at the moment and even if you do manage there is not enough time to kill them.


EDIT : http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10544540526&sid=2000&pageNo=1

This is an interesting thread (it's also where the quote came from), the original poster pretty much nails it.
Which also reminds me, at the moment I have 40 different keybindings and I have to break my head over how to fix this with all the new spells coming (getting an extra finger attached or getting my hand enlarged is not an option :p)

Regicide
05-10-2008, 06:38 PM
Making the dodge rate something less than 3% is a huge nerf - sure we get deterrence, but isn't that a 3minute cooldown? you may aswell use Bestial Wrath twice to get away from the rogue/warrior in that space of time.

Ruoste
16-10-2008, 07:31 AM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/3/11228504361-upcoming-hunter-changes-part-ii.html
Aspects are now off the GCD. It's true. There will still be a 1 sec cooldown to switch from one aspect to another. It should feel a lot more like warrior stances or death knight presences.

We're also going to be putting a little bit of dodge (~10%?) onto Monkey. I'll update when we decide on a final number.

Just for consistency, paladin auras will probably get the same treatment.

These changes should go live before Nov 13.

As always, thanks for all of the feedback, and please keep it up now that many of the changes are live.

EDIT: After further discussion, we're not crazy about the "stance dancing" that hunters need to do to switch to Monkey when someone is in on you in melee. As we've said a few times, Disengage and Deterrence should be your go-to abilities at that time. If anything, removing Aspects from the GCD makes it feel like you are supposed to go Monkey every time you're in melee.

Rather than revert the change, we are introducing a new spell!

Instead of getting new ranks of Hawk at level 75 and 80, you now get the new Aspect of the Dragonhawk. This powerful aspect combines all of the effects of Hawk and Monkey. Any talent or glyph that affects either Hawk or Monkey also affects Dragonhawk the same way. The idea is that you retire Hawk and Monkey at level 75 and go to essentially two Aspects: Dragonhawk for combat and Viper for mana regen.

Vegelus
16-10-2008, 08:15 AM
Yea, been reading about it on EJs atm. Really great change to be honest.
Other nice changes - exotic pets will be doing +10% dmg, as Blizz noticed it wasn't included in any serious BM build (well, maybe some pvp ones for survivality).

Bunneh
19-10-2008, 02:21 PM
The big pets are pissing me off now. The initial ground pounding was interesting and fun at first, now it's just bloody annoying. It's almost as bad as those Hunters who have flappying pets in the bank/AH. Chop their fucking wings and legs off, can't flap or pound then!

:D

Vegelus
19-10-2008, 02:32 PM
Weee - Animal Handler now being 5/10 expertise increase - just as it was predicted.

Ruoste
22-10-2008, 05:50 AM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/3/11676577949-upcoming-hunter-changes.html
As I have suggested a few times, we are concerned that hunters of all 3 specs are doing damage that is clearly superior to other classes. While we're trying to achieve closer parity among specs of all classes with regard to dps, and we want to particularly make sure that hunters, rogues, mages and locks are not left behind, we do think the hunters are too far ahead, particularly at 80, in good gear, when raid-buffed.

However, we have also tried to give hunters a substantial survivability boost in PvP and we don't want to do anything that hurts them too much in PvP.

So here are changes you will most likely see soon:

1) Ranged attacks no longer benefit from the haste effects of Windfury Totem and Improved Icy Talons. This is a nerf to hunter white damage.

2) We are also improving the armor on level 83 raid bosses by 10%. This will be a nerf to the dps of any class that does physical damage. For classes that would slide behind with such a change, we'll take steps to adjust them -- though it probably isn't as many as you think. The raid buff stacking overhaul was very beneficial to melee (and hunters). Sunder / Expose Armor alone can be a 20%+ dps increase, which is why we decided to attack the problem from this angle.

3) Now the armor change won't affect PvP at all and the haste buff change will only have a marginal affect in BGs and only in Arena teams that include certain comps. However, in order to make sure we didn't nerf hunters too much, we made two changes to Disengage. First, its cooldown dropped to 25 sec (from 30) which can be talented to 16. Second, it no longer requires a target, but does require you to be in combat. Now if someone closes to melee, you can leap back without having to select them first. We require you to be in combat though so we don't see a lot of hunters bouncing around IF / Org or using it like Blink to goofily speed up travel.

Disengage change looks like a very nice pvp buff.

Too bad about dps nerfs. I'm surprised they didn't nerf Volley yet...