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Palados
18-07-2008, 11:24 AM
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?paladin

Good stuff for holydins:

buffed synergy (holy shock crit makes next HL instant for example), 2 aoe RAID-wide spells (consecration and beacon of light).

Ryś
18-07-2008, 01:29 PM
Prot:

+Thunderclap
+Even bigger threat increase, RF now increases threat of holy spells by 90%
+Devo aura now increases armour by % and increases healing done on players affected by Devo
+Anticipation now gives 5% dodge instead of defence skill
+Threat increase from SoR, HS and reduced mana costs (Shield of the Templar).

Divine Guardian could be interesting as well, soaking up 30% of raid dmg within 30 yards.

Arthran
18-07-2008, 01:34 PM
Ryu you suck
+Even bigger threat increase, RF now increases threat of holy spells by 90%

it already did this! as any paladin tanking with imp RF is a retard

Ryś
18-07-2008, 01:37 PM
errm ye, nvm that :P


Hey! Im laik drooling over these changes mkay?

Ryś
18-07-2008, 01:38 PM
The 51 point talent looks good, if it's spammable.

Arthran
18-07-2008, 01:41 PM
aye, just sucks that as before our tree is horibly bloated and 61 points is NEEDED in Prot

Ryś
18-07-2008, 01:45 PM
Looks pretty solid to me, something like this seems the way to start out:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIgcdMgqeoGoVox

Depends on how useful DG is in practice ofc.

Bleetman
18-07-2008, 09:17 PM
I have no words to describe my contempt at protection and retribution recieving more useful healing talents than end-tier holy. Beacon of Light and Judgments of the Pure look pathetic next to Sheath of Light and Touched by the Light. Hell, touched should really be renamed Holy Mockery, as fitting the joke talent build from a while back.

The reworked holy talents are good, though, as are the shifting around of the early prot talents. And re-making several blessings as Hands so they don't overwrite your other blessing buffs is appreciated. Even if sacrifice has been nerfed so far into the God damn ground it's probably at molten core by now.

Amber
18-07-2008, 10:49 PM
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZxZEs0tbfuAIoguAo

Looks tasty. I r happy Retridin!

Bleetman
19-07-2008, 01:22 AM
Before you get too happy? One word.

Precision.

GUYS, IT'S GONE?!

Ajial
19-07-2008, 06:42 AM
Something along the lines of http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAdgGzhVz0xRZZE00xhbzh could work provided you had others in the raid that could buff kings. (On a side note why they gave that crit hot ability to retri pisses me off a little as we've been needing a hot for.. well.. ever. And the judgement haste thing is a joke, switch those 2 plx?)

Borwin
19-07-2008, 10:26 AM
Uff precision isnt needed, especially with the new melee hit = spellhit. What I see of the gear available it will be hard not to be hit capped.

Btw.. you can make a hybrid prot/ret build that gets spelldam from both stamina and AP, but dunno if it's good for anything, dps tanking?

Amber
19-07-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm gonna be sharing gear with DPS warriors and DeathKnights, both DW classes so their gear should have a decent chunk of +hit on it. So while it's a bit of a bummer to have lost Precision it's not the end of my world.

WTB moar information on Divine Storm and Judgements of the Wise.

sara
19-07-2008, 02:01 PM
I have no words to describe my contempt at protection and retribution recieving more useful healing talents than end-tier holy. Beacon of Light and Judgments of the Pure look pathetic next to Sheath of Light and Touched by the Light. Hell, touched should really be renamed Holy Mockery, as fitting the joke talent build from a while back.

The reworked holy talents are good, though, as are the shifting around of the early prot talents. And re-making several blessings as Hands so they don't overwrite your other blessing buffs is appreciated. Even if sacrifice has been nerfed so far into the God damn ground it's probably at molten core by now.

Complaining about beacon of light is silly, it is a combined AoE-HoT, the two kinds of heal that holy paladins lacked. It has no cooldown, and 1.5s cast. If you think it's lacking then I can't imagine what would satisfy you, if anything I expect it to be nerfed.

Reading through the new spells, it appears that alliance paladins are getting a renamed seal of blood (Seal of the Martyr), and horde paladins seal of vengeance (Seal of Corruption), which is nice because they are situationally useful, but kinda funny as a cop-out for re-balancing. :)

No more BoS is quite nice, from a raid flexibility standpoint too.

Bleetman
19-07-2008, 04:00 PM
which is nice because they are situationally useful, but kinda funny as a cop-out for re-balancing
Seal of Blood is vastly superior to (talented) Seal of Command in just about every way imaginable. Marginally less so with upcoming hit = spell hit changes, but still.

Complaining about beacon of light is silly, it is a combined AoE-HoT, the two kinds of heal that holy paladins lacked.
I wasn't so much complaining about it specifically (though I'm unsure how a 2330 mana cost heal which won't generate mana through illumination is going to work out for a class with traditionally the worst regeneration of all, but that could all change, of course), it just disappoints me to see Frikkin' Sweet Healing Talent in Entirely None Healing Related Build. It's more a Touched thing, I guess, Sheath is of questionable value outside of 5 mans and pvp anyway. It'd be like putting, hell, I don't know, Living Seed as 40 feral, or somesuch.

Healing tree is for healing, generally.

Kinshara
19-07-2008, 04:57 PM
Seal of Blood is vastly superior to (talented) Seal of Command in just about every way imaginable. Marginally less so with upcoming hit = spell hit changes, but still.

Just seen another rumour regarding JoC -- http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Serious-Business-1/Paladin-update-Judgements-as-seperate-spells-JoC-as-weapon-damage-and-big-BIG-judgement-crits/

No confirmation beyond that lolriot post, but it sounds ok until we get to the screenshots. Art Of War seems to make it a little ridiculous for a full JoC crit with wings up.

Edit: Doesn't solve the whole not-scaling-with-haste issue that SoC has, obviously, just makes JoC a little more threatening than tickling for a retadin.

Jethrotull
19-07-2008, 05:29 PM
I must say I'm very happy with the new paladin talents. I think Beacon of light will be awesome as it's a Hot, an AoE and a directed spell. The threat from healing will all go to the appointed person, so throwing it on a tank will heal all the melee AND raise the tank's amount of threat by a fair amount. Which will be needed with the removal of BoS I might add, Hand of salvation is ok ish but 10% threat dump on 1 person is nothign compared to 30% threat reduction on everyone. But we'll see how that works out :) For now I'm looking at it as an amazing healing spell, albeit a very encounterdependant.

I also like the new 10% haste from judging (at 30 yrd radius now, sweet) and I wonder if the 3% crit buff from Heart of the Crusader is stackable now. I was thinking of going 51/20/0 because of Divine Guardian and Dev Aura, but if the crits from different judgements stack it could be nice grabbing it. 3 pala's in a raid can throw up the raids crit% by 9% and you dont even need a lolret to keep applying, since we want to keep 10% haste anyway. win/win says I :P

Retribution seems to be getting a good buff too, but I still think the dps is going to fall behind very fast, making retribution aura not enough reason to bring one.
Either way I'm a very happy holydin now that I've seen these fancy new talents.


In all cases I'm talking about 10/25-man raids, since I don't pvp on my Pala.

[edit]
Did I mention Avenging Wrath is going to increase dmg AND healing by 20% now? that's a nice buff for Healing pala's.

Bleetman
19-07-2008, 05:50 PM
Doesn't solve the whole not-scaling-with-haste issue that SoC has, obviously, just makes JoC a little more threatening than tickling for a retadin.
The base judgment damage is also afair amount less then Blood, but yes.

...

10k crits, you say?

*twitch*

You know what? Holy can go to hell.

sara
19-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Seal of Blood is vastly superior to (talented) Seal of Command in just about every way imaginable. Marginally less so with upcoming hit = spell hit changes, but still.


SoB is poor for what matters to me (tanking), where SoV is considered better. SoB is good for retlol, and SoV isn't (so I've heard). As I said, situationally useful.

On the healing issue: when I'm not main-tanking, I'm healing, because prot dps is poor if you aren't being hit, even if you don't have mana issues. So a boost to your ability to heal is not to be sniffed at, particularly since spell power is tripled for healing purposes, so your spell-dps tank gear will automatically have a fairly ok level of +heal.

Palados
19-07-2008, 07:07 PM
Aye, they making us better hybrids, up to the point where hybrid playstyle could be viable. With AP to SPD conversion and spd to healing conversion retridins will effectively have as much +healing as their AP is (!). Their melee crit = spell crit as well, so it is completely viable for retri to throw a heals around while being in retri gear, if needed. On current lvl of gear, retridins will have about the same +healing and spell crit as me. Just their mana won't allow them to be effective healers.

On a side note it is possible to spec hybrid retri+holy with HoT and extra 5% spell crit. On EJ there are like 5 different raid-viable hybrid specs. And people discuss about possibility to make 'bufadin', person that buffs raid alot, debuffs boss a lot and could OT/heal/DPS just fine (worse than pure build but good enough to justify the spot).

Palados
19-07-2008, 07:11 PM
Most probably there will be 2 popular holy builds like CoH/IDS priests builds now. One with Beacon and some prot talents, other - shear of light holy/retri build (more raid utility, no AoE healing).

Valoran
20-07-2008, 06:03 AM
Which will be needed with the removal of BoS I might add, Hand of salvation is ok ish but 10% threat dump on 1 person is nothign compared to 30% threat reduction on everyone. But we'll see how that works out :) For now I'm looking at it as an amazing healing spell, albeit a very encounterdependant.
Not at all, tank threat gen is being insanely buffed, the native threat gen of RF and defensive stance (I presume dire bear form aswell) is being boosted to make up for this. The point being that threat will be higher based on the coefficients without BoS in wotlk than it is now now with the entire raid buffed. Yes, they're removing BoS, but they're doing so because they're changing things so that BoS will not be needed, and that raids aren't pigeon holed into having three paladins for the blessings. This is *not* a nerf (unless you count needing two rather than three paladins in a raid a class neff and not a raid composition buff).

Ajial
20-07-2008, 08:37 AM
I dont think it was so much pigeon holed in raids, I think it was more that the tanks tps and dps' tps was too close, meaning unless your group had salv tanking could be significantly harder. I dont think this change was intended as much for 25 mans per ce. I think the change was intended for 5 mans but more so for the fact 10 man is becoming more main stream and as it stands dpser's tps scales alot faster then tanks, I guess they intend to make tanking a bit easier (with the better scaling on threat abilities across all tank classes)

minizip
20-07-2008, 11:02 AM
Not at all, tank threat gen is being insanely buffed, the native threat gen of RF and defensive stance (I presume dire bear form aswell) is being boosted to make up for this.

The base threat modifier of def stance is increased to *1.45 from *1.30, but the +15% stacking buff of defiance is removed, so overall that's a 4.5% loss of base threat (1.3*1.15=1.495 currently, as opposed to the new 1.45). Also the expertise is lost from the removal of defiance, so that's another 3% threat gone, so overall warriors are starting from about a -7.5% base threat point.

Of course we still have to see how the innate threat of abilties stacks up + the AP element, but as things stand in the alpha/beta currently it appears pala's will have better HP, mitigation (due to the shield block change) and threat than warriors.

Skan
20-07-2008, 01:22 PM
I dont think it was so much pigeon holed in raids, I think it was more that the tanks tps and dps' tps was too close, meaning unless your group had salv tanking could be significantly harder.

No, Brutallus would have been *impossible* without Salvation. Blizzard is blatantly trying to make it possible for guilds with smaller player bases access more content.

Valoran
20-07-2008, 01:40 PM
I dont think it was so much pigeon holed in raids, I think it was more that the tanks tps and dps' tps was too close, meaning unless your group had salv tanking could be significantly harder. I dont think this change was intended as much for 25 mans per ce. I think the change was intended for 5 mans but more so for the fact 10 man is becoming more main stream and as it stands dpser's tps scales alot faster then tanks, I guess they intend to make tanking a bit easier (with the better scaling on threat abilities across all tank classes)
Right. So you wanted three paladins in any sane raid composition. That's a fairly harsh requirement and I'm pretty sure the main reason behind this change. BoS as a concept is retarded, especially with the ability to ninja buff from outside the instance/on an alt. The idea behind Hand of Salvation is much better.
The base threat modifier of def stance is increased to *1.45 from *1.30, but the +15% stacking buff of defiance is removed, so overall that's a 4.5% loss of base threat (1.3*1.15=1.495 currently, as opposed to the new 1.45). Also the expertise is lost from the removal of defiance, so that's another 3% threat gone, so overall warriors are starting from about a -7.5% base threat point.

Of course we still have to see how the innate threat of abilties stacks up + the AP element, but as things stand in the alpha/beta currently it appears pala's will have better HP, mitigation (due to the shield block change) and threat than warriors.
I don't know about you, but I don't exactly need the expertise from defiance and I'm fairly sure that with some wotlk gear, I'll be well over the cap should I so wish. As far as warrior threat goes, though - I'm fairly sure in general you'll see an increase, abilities are starting to scale with AP and new mechanics are being brought in to compensate.

Sword and Board for example (10% chance of refreshing your shield slam cooldown) has a 30% chance of giving you an extra shield slam as part of the current tps rotation (which may change with new abilities etc), this works out as something like 4-6% extra threat.

Overall, I'm not too worried, as there are plenty of other things that are likely to boost tps too; rage on avoidance streaks, new short cd spammable high threat move (and aoe \o/), possible reworking of shield bash, shield breaker, increased damage on revenge and increased hs crit chance.

Miniloth
20-07-2008, 05:06 PM
I think Beacon of light will be awesome as it's a Hot, an AoE and a directed spell. The threat from healing will all go to the appointed person, so throwing it on a tank will heal all the melee AND raise the tank's amount of threat by a fair amount.

Still not convinced by this spell, 2000 hp over 15 seconds is not a hell of a lot when your tank is getting 4-7k hits, its also a 1.5sec cast ok same as base stat fol but with a mana cost of 2330mana, thats a big chunk, I concede that yes it heals the melee for 2k/15 secs too but only if they are within 10 yards. A fair few bosses that we have found so far have a pretty big hit box so the chance that your tank is standing within 10 yards of the melee will be often rare.

Palados
20-07-2008, 08:38 PM
It will scale with +healing tho, so will be more like 10k if you add your +healing to 3.5sec intervals

Jethrotull
20-07-2008, 08:58 PM
This is not an MT healingspell, but it's great additional healing while you spam Holy Light.

I've heard that it will benefit 100% from +healing so even with current endgame gear (let's say +2500 healing) that's 4500 healing on all melee, which is good enough to heal through a LOT of raid dmg, not to mention you can cut the mana cost in half with Divine Illumination. I'm not saying this will be chainheal mark II or anything, but I can see a lot of potential group healing for reasonable mana cost. (Holy Light for instance is going to cost almost 1900 mana).

Yes it might be utterly useless, but I can see this being pretty good :P. If it's rubbish 48/0/23 is gonna be a nice spec :P

Flawless
20-07-2008, 09:17 PM
Are you still playing that pala tull?

Jethrotull
21-07-2008, 01:18 AM
Hehe yes, though I've decided that healing 25-man is really lame and I don't ever wanna do that again. It felt to me like staring at green bars and the 'Grid' for a few hours. I kinda like it in 5-man and 10-man though.
Doing some pvp on the mage atm, figuring out if I want to raid again. Playing the mage feels more natural anyway.

But I couldn't resist having an opinion about the new paladin talents :P

Miniloth
21-07-2008, 04:34 PM
It will scale with +healing tho, so will be more like 10k if you add your +healing to 3.5sec intervals

In that case maybe.

Enkal
22-07-2008, 08:32 AM
I'm thinking about this tanking build (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/wrath/paladin/talents.html?tal=010000000000000000000000000500513 35003010252155312321052050000000000000000000000)

And yes, it seems the talent tree for prot is official now. :)

Ryś
22-07-2008, 08:40 AM
Guarded by the Light seems like a uselss gimmick talent, take 2/2 spell warding rather, every bit of damage reduction is important.

Valoran
22-07-2008, 08:41 AM
I'm thinking about this tanking build (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/wrath/paladin/talents.html?tal=010000000000000000000000000500513 35003010252155312321052050000000000000000000000)

And yes, it seems the talent tree for prot is official now. :)
Not too important, but shield block value is being changed in wotlk for all shield users to just be 2 str = 1 block. I assume this means tanking gear will have str on it (paladins and warriors will use the same sets of non-tier plate anyway) so Divine Strength may be worth picking up.

Enkal
22-07-2008, 11:26 AM
Ahh, yea then divine strength sounds good... damnit.

I think with no int on tank gear any mana reduction is very much welcome, hence the guarded by the light points. It comes down to how many dodges or parries will you have during a typical threat rotation in my opinion.

Say you only use it for consecration that's once every 8 seconds. Say a mob hits with a 2.0 attack speed that would be 4x 20% chances per consecration to get the next one at half mana (not counting mob special attacks that can be dodged/parried). Rank 8 is 1475 mana normal cost so about 738 mana with the talent.

Now imagine doing some aoe grind/tanking and you're almost guaranteed to have half cost for consecration and your next frisbee or holy wrath will also be half cost after the fight. Less downtime.

Ryś
22-07-2008, 01:22 PM
I imagine that when you spec into a build you spec for raiding not for solo grinding.

And mana has never been an issue for progression raiding. You start worrying about mana when you outgear an instance.

Enkal
22-07-2008, 01:54 PM
I imagine that when you spec into a build you spec for raiding not for solo grinding.

And mana has never been an issue for progression raiding. You start worrying about mana when you outgear an instance.

Well, I cannot really speculate on how that will be @ lvl 80. But remove all int from your gear and see how big of a manapool you have left. ;)

Ryś
22-07-2008, 02:31 PM
So you'd prefer spending two points on some meager chance for some little less mana use every 8 seconds instead of 4% less magic damage guaranteed? We're tanks remember, doing all we can to reduce incoming damage on us, so no that's not even an option.

Palados
22-07-2008, 02:35 PM
As soon as you are hitted enough, you don't have to worry about mana much. And if you aren't hitted enough, you probably outgear the instance and could just swap some holy gear in for getting more hits and some int.

Arthran
22-07-2008, 02:53 PM
Ryu get to Maintankadin and read about the current spec theorycrafting

Ryś
22-07-2008, 03:13 PM
I did, seeing the specs 9/10 coughed up their knowledge fails as hard as on the official Wow forums.

Arthran
22-07-2008, 03:26 PM
heh, what spec are you gonna take then?

Valoran
22-07-2008, 03:34 PM
Yes, please share your vastly superior knowledge.

Ryś
22-07-2008, 03:35 PM
That depends on some things Arth:

-Will Str be something to take into account now, seeing as it will contribute more to BV.
-With the new 51 point talent, will have to figure out the ideal tanking rotation, which will have impact on taking Imp. Judgement or not, or maybe take 1 point.
-I suppose holy paladins won't spec as deep as to have Kings and DG (which could be useful spec functioning as OT) as they waste too many points to get there, meaning I'll have to be a Kings-bot.

For now:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIgcdMgqeoGoVox

With DS, Imp. Judgement updebate, kinda want to see how threat management works out without Salv now.

SO GIEF BETA KEY MKAY

And who's Valoran

Arthran
22-07-2008, 03:45 PM
ok so barring 1point you've gone for maintankadin's cookie cutter build of 0/59/12 atm.

and yet you say 9/10 of their builds are crap... PAY MOAR ATTENTION OR FORUM TROLL MOAR! :P

Valoran
22-07-2008, 03:52 PM
ok so barring 1point you've gone for maintankadin's cookie cutter build of 0/59/12 atm.
Which is why I'm not so impressed by the all knowing Ryu doing his usual. :P

Miniloth
22-07-2008, 05:23 PM
As soon as you are hitted enough, you don't have to worry about mana much. And if you aren't hitted enough,


If you are not getting enough hit to regain your mana pool tell your healers and take your shield off, or simply turn around. Providing you have warned your healers what you are doing your mana pool will rise quite quickly.

Enkal
23-07-2008, 06:28 AM
You still need enough of a mana pool for a full rotation imho. On bosses, yea mana is no problem. On trash... you wanna sit down and drink after each pull? ;)

The 4% spelldamage reduction talent have been discussed alot before wotlk and I'm still not sure how much of a difference it does... 4% isnt much and the anti magic tanks would be DK's now... still just speculating.

I also wonder about divine guardian, how will it work in practice.. has any tests been done with it? Edit: It seems like a junk talent now that I've read up about it. 2 Talent points saved! YAY!!

From maintankadin:
Guarded by the light has changed into a flat 15% redux in mana cost for consecration, holy wrath, and avengers shield per rank.

So its now 2 points for a flat 30% cheaper cast.

Now that HS is 6 charges / 8 sec CD it might be interesting to drop Imp HS, this build could be something to toy with: Build #2 (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/wrath/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000001500513 35003210250155312321052050000000000000000000000)

infneon
29-07-2008, 11:29 AM
Art of War just got the nerf bat treatment to the face

From double damage judgements to

* The Art of War: Reduces all damage taken by 1/2/3% and gives your Hand of Freedom a 33/66/100% chance to remove Stun effects.

woo

Bleetman
29-07-2008, 11:29 PM
Reworked: Divine Protection (118 Mana, 5 Minutes cooldown): Reduces all damage taken by 50% for 12 seconds, but increases the time between your attacks by 50%.
Shield Wall Lite?

Enkal
30-07-2008, 06:48 AM
Yup, shield wall lite indeed. :) Much shorter CD afaik.


So shield wall, shield slam, "cleave".. time to get my hands on a slow 1h weapon with AP. ^^

Kinshara
30-07-2008, 07:49 AM
Art of War just got the nerf bat treatment to the face

From double damage judgements to

* The Art of War: Reduces all damage taken by 1/2/3% and gives your Hand of Freedom a 33/66/100% chance to remove Stun effects.

woo

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9659/sealgz1.jpg -- given the new base damage(with reasonable gear) and the stunned/incapacitated bonus... the nerf *was* needed. Burst is one thing, but 14K+ instagib is a little too much :)

Still seems like 7-8K is possible on a crit with the stunned bonus and 5/5 Righteous Vengeance, maybe more. Might get nerfed again before it goes live.

The new version of the talent is a little odd though... another stun remover wasn't needed imo.

Borwin
30-07-2008, 08:13 AM
Anyone experimented with hybrid builds yet (for leveling ofc)? I tried to make a ret+prot one in theory, but it comes down to that you cant use HS and CS at the same time. Now, HS isn't all that great but I guess it depends on if its needed for the leveling dungeons or if your HP can manage to take that extra crush chance.

Kinshara
30-07-2008, 08:46 AM
Anyone experimented with hybrid builds yet (for leveling ofc)? I tried to make a ret+prot one in theory, but it comes down to that you cant use HS and CS at the same time. Now, HS isn't all that great but I guess it depends on if its needed for the leveling dungeons or if your HP can manage to take that extra crush chance.

Crushing blows have been removed for LK, afaik.

CB immunity never really mattered until you got to the harder heroics or started raiding for TBC; most of the time I wasn't even crit immune when levelling. My incoming damage never stressed the healer for that, it was always multi-target damage for non-aoe healers that caused problems. If I do come back for the expansion, I suspect I'll just spec deep ret and use our new "shield slam" style spell + divine storm for threat if I want to tank while levelling.

infneon
30-07-2008, 09:26 AM
I'll be going ret for levelling and depending on what the state of ret in raids is, either stay ret or gear up for tanking again

Palados
30-07-2008, 10:04 AM
You wanted to roll DK, Inf, don't you? :D Or light side of your soul won?

Amber
30-07-2008, 04:09 PM
Art of War just got the nerf bat treatment to the face

From double damage judgements to

* The Art of War: Reduces all damage taken by 1/2/3% and gives your Hand of Freedom a 33/66/100% chance to remove Stun effects.

woo

That's 3 talent points for me to spend somewhere else then.

More annoying is Righteous Vengeance getting nerfed too. :(

infneon
31-07-2008, 10:37 AM
Not entirely sure where I want to go yet. It'll either be the pally or starting over with a Death Knight.

Official Pally notes were updated, 3 judgements are now official.

Paladin

* Consecration now scales with attack power and spell power.
* Divine Protection now reduces all damage taken by 50% and increases time between attacks by 100%.
* Exorcism mana cost reduced and now scales with attack power and spell power.
* Eye for an Eye now reflects 10/20% damage from all critical hits.
* Fanaticism now increases chance to critically hit by 5/10/15/20/25%.
* Forbearance duration increased to 3 minutes.
* Improved Blessing of Might increased to 10/20/30/40/50%.
* Judgement has been replaced with 3 new spells; Judgement of Light, Judgement of Wisdom, and Judgement of Justice. All Judgement spells are considered ranged attacks for purposes of how they hit and how they critically hit. All cause damage based on attack power and spell power.

- Judgement of Light now heals based on the Paladin’s attack power and spell power, the effect can not trigger more than once ever 4 seconds.
- Judgement of Justice will no longer prevent Fear effects, but will only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health).
- Judgement of Wisdom now restores mana based on the Paladin’s attack power and spell power, the effect can not trigger more than once every 4 seconds.

* Precision has been removed.
* Pursuit of Justice reduced to 2 ranks for 8/15% movement increase and 1/2% less chance to be hit by spells.
* Righteous Defense no longer costs mana and the global cooldown has been removed.
* Sacred Duty now also reduces the cooldown of Divine Protection.
* All Seals have been reduced to 1 rank and now cost 14% of base mana. The duration has been increased to 2 minutes and are no longer consumed when a Judgement spell is cast. The effects can be triggered from all weapon based special abilities.

- Seal of Blood now increases Judgement damabe by 45% of weapon damage.
- Seal of Command now increases Judgement damage by 30% of weapon damage, 60% on stunned targets.
- Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.
- Seal of Righteousness deals damage based on weapons peed plus an amount based on attack power and spell power, increases Judgement damage by 25%.
- Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds and now applies its effect on every swing, causes damage based on attack power and spell power, and increases Judgement damage by 10% per stack of the damage over time effect.

* Summon Warhorse and Summon Charger mana cost removed and no longer causes a global cooldown.
* Vindication reduced to 2 ranks for 10/20% attribute reduction.
* Silence (Shadow) global cooldown removed.

Enkal
31-07-2008, 10:59 AM
* Silence (Shadow) global cooldown removed.

So paladin shadow form is confirmed? ;) haha some copy paste error by a dev there I presume. ^^

Kinshara
02-08-2008, 10:07 AM
http://files.filefront.com/WotLKpaladinswmv/;11323013;/fileinfo.html -- definitely going to have more nerfs for ret.

Palados
02-08-2008, 10:26 AM
They won't nerf it further I guess. It is supposed to be pvp seal that could hit very hard, but occasionally. And it hits THAT hard ONLY on stunned targets with avenger wrath up, etc.

MikoWolf
05-08-2008, 01:12 AM
yar, and btw i tried out the ret tree in my t2 gear, hitting lvl 68-70 mobs... im doing some nice dmg tbh (2k-3k crits):P if you just go on armory and search for MikoWolf youll se what gear i have on me atm :P (tried it for 2 mins or so, so i might have had luck but still, it felt like i could go on and lvl abit in that gear :3)

Firien
05-08-2008, 02:05 AM
yar, and btw i tried out the ret tree in my t2 gear, hitting lvl 68-70 mobs... im doing some nice dmg tbh (2k-3k crits):P if you just go on armory and search for MikoWolf youll se what gear i have on me atm :P (tried it for 2 mins or so, so i might have had luck but still, it felt like i could go on and lvl abit in that gear :3)

The guy in this vid certainly feels he could level a fair bit as ret in his T5 level gear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaXcHFvTsO8

MikoWolf
05-08-2008, 11:53 AM
well ye, but that t5, with much more improved stats from t2 >.>

ill try making something of my own if ya guys want :P

Firien
05-08-2008, 12:57 PM
well ye, but that t5, with much more improved stats from t2 >.>

That wasn't really my point. At level 71 he's still taking on level 78's and higher level multiples without all the extra spell ranks and bonuses that come with levelling up, still pretty impressive tbh.

ill try making something of my own if ya guys want :P

Go for it, I'll be interested to see how it pans out. :P

Kinshara
09-08-2008, 09:51 AM
Not talents, but LK pally related anyway...


Glyph of Seal of Command - Increases the chance of dealing Seal of Command damage by 20%.
Glyph of Hammer of Justice - Increases your Hammer of Justice duration by 1 sec.
Glyph of Blessing of Wisdom - Your Blessing of Wisdom causes your target to also regenerate health at the same rate as mana.
Glyph of Hammer of Wrath - Increases the range on Hammer of Wrath by 5 yards.
Glyph of Crusader Strike - Your Crusader strike deals 20% more damage when your targe is incapacitated or stunned.
Glyph of Consecration - Increases the radius of Consecration by 1 yards.
Glyph of Righteous Defense - Increases the chance for your Righteous Defense ability to work successfully by 8% on each target.
Glyph of Avenger's Shield - Your Avenger's Shield hits -2 fewer targets but for 100% more damage.
Glyph of Turn Evil - Reduces the cooldown on Turn Evil by 5 sec.
Glyph of Exorcism - Your Exorcism also interrupts spellcasting for 0 sec.
Glyph of Blessing of Kings - Your Blessing of Kings also increases attack power on affected targets by 3%.
Glyph of Flash of Light - Your Flash of Light heals for -50% less initially but also heals for 196% of its inital effect over 1 to 0 sec.
Glyph of Holy Light - Your Holy Light grants 10% of its heal amount to up to 5 friendly targets within 5 of the initial target.
Glyph of Blessing of Might - Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.
Glyph of Lay on Hands - Your Lay on Hands also grants you as much mana as it grants your target.
Glyph of Seal of Wisdom - While Seal of Wisdom is active the cost of your healing spells is reduced by -5%.
Glyph of Seal of Light - While Seal of Light is active the effect of your healing spells is increased by 5%.


Mild hot on BoW, some AoE on HL? Hrm. Burst on a stunned target gets even more ridiculous with the CS glyph. Exo with an interrupt... very nice(unless that also only affects undead).

Edit: sourced from: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=12440.0

Aymerich
09-08-2008, 01:23 PM
Ap increase with BOK? Yes please.Best buff ever.

Earny
09-08-2008, 10:24 PM
Reckon they will also add a spell power increase to BoK? I think they will/should.

And Aym, you should be fapping over your extra 1yrd of concecrate!

Bleetman
10-08-2008, 03:29 AM
Divine Guardian (Tier 4) now only affects Divine Shield.
Well, shit.

Palados
10-08-2008, 12:39 PM
Well, shit.

Nah, I think it's good. It allows you to pick this talent and don't worry about soacking damage from the raid during your 'shield wall'.

Bleetman
10-08-2008, 04:00 PM
Ah! Yes. Of course.

Kinshara
30-08-2008, 03:50 PM
Beacon of Light (Tier 11) changed to: The target becomes a Beacon of Light to all targets within a 40 yard radius. Any heals you cast on those targets will also heal the Beacon for 100% of the amount healed.

Looks nice, and is something unique to holy paladins, but I'm not fond of giving up a full AoE heal. (from patch 8885)