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Ailith
13-06-2008, 07:30 AM
http://wrath.druzya.org/yarr/?c=rogue

Some strange ones. But I guess I'll be staying sub for pvp.

Vile poison reduced to only 3 points, not sure if that's an error in the tree or blizz did reduce it from 5.

Blaadjes
13-06-2008, 12:26 PM
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /yarr/ on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/1.3.37 Server at wrath.druzya.org Port 80

:<

Ailith
13-06-2008, 05:23 PM
Aww :(

From what i remember of some of the talents:

Subtlety
A talent that reduces damage taken from someone who attacks you who you weren't attacking. Same row as shadowstep. A talent that reduced ambush\backstab energy cost (meh). A talent that gave upto 30% chance to gain a combo point to your target when someone in your group made a spell or heal critical hit (on any target, as far as I gathered by the tooltip).

51 point talent was called "shadow dance" which makes you enter stealth every 3 seconds for 10 seconds or something.

Combat had 51 point talent that makes you do an attack every 1.5 secs (IIRC) with both weapons, on upto 5 opponents in a 10 yard range for 8 secs or something. If there's less than 5 opponents, it can attack the the same person twice. Also a talent that could increase damage, remove a debuf and stack upto 3 times.

Assass had some improved garotte+rupture damage talent. Can't remember the 51 point assass talent.

One tree (either assass or sub) had one that, on a crit ambush, reduced the targets movement and attack speed as well as their chance to hit.

Another talent in one of the trees (either combat or assass) gave you a chance to reflect physical debuff's to the caster (I look forward to warriors improved hamstringing themselves!).

Bleetman
15-06-2008, 02:07 AM
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/tumlan/Assasination.png

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/tumlan/cOMBAT.png

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/tumlan/Subt.png

Matzumo
15-06-2008, 06:46 AM
Rogues is already the most feared class in arenas, lets buff them some more? :o

stupid blizzard

Senex
15-06-2008, 06:53 AM
Rogues is already the most feared class in arenas, lets buff them some more? :o

stupid blizzard
Deathknights will eat rogues for breakfast.

Hopekj
16-06-2008, 03:16 PM
lol! im really looking forward to the expansion now! lol! :)

Manuva
16-06-2008, 03:55 PM
Assassination right now looks like the killer DPS tree. I don't understand the random PVP talents in the top end of the combat tree though. Shadow Dance looks awesome!

Honor Among Thieves looks like an interesting talent. If I were blizzard, though, I would stick that in either combat or assassination. Melee spots will get even tighter in raids with the addition of Death Knights and increasing Ret Pala popularity, perhaps if they were to stick that talent in the DPS tree, it'd give more reason to bring more than one rogue to a raid. If we think about Mutilate with Focused Attacks, the optimum gemming and gearing will be purely crit oriented to make maximum use of the energy return. Imagine the insane combo point generation a Mutilate rogue would give to the other rogues in his party if Honor Among Thieves were an Assassination talent.

All subject to change though, don't get your hopes up!

Stabstalker
16-06-2008, 05:27 PM
lets buff them some more


What the fuck are on you about? we only got shit nerfs since TBC was released

Senex
16-06-2008, 06:43 PM
Honor Among Thieves allows the rogue to operate in the hunter group, rather than the melee one (all those Steady Shot/Bite/Claw/Gore/LB crits will rack up a lot of procs).

Morilith
16-06-2008, 11:45 PM
Honor Among Thieves allows the rogue to operate in the hunter group, rather than the melee one (all those Steady Shot/Bite/Claw/Gore/LB crits will rack up a lot of procs).

No, because they can't even remotely compare to the number of attacks a dual wielder does per second.

Senex
17-06-2008, 07:57 AM
No, because they can't even remotely compare to the number of attacks a dual wielder does per second.
Re-read the talent again. It only procs off yellow attacks - how many of those can the aforementioned dualwielder spam non-stop?

Morilith
17-06-2008, 08:15 AM
Re-read the talent again. It only procs off yellow attacks - how many of those can the aforementioned dualwielder spam non-stop?

Obviously, a lot more than you give them credit for. However, the idea of a rogue raiding with over 40 points in subtlety worries me even more than the idea of stacking rogues with hunters, and in return losing all the warrior/shaman/druid goodness in exchange for combo points which aren't scarce even as it is.

Senex
17-06-2008, 08:41 AM
Mmm, can't really argue with that. The upper talents for all three specs remind me of the old Shadow Mend talent.

Matzumo
17-06-2008, 08:48 AM
What the fuck are on you about? we only got shit nerfs since TBC was released

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/

Maybe in PvE but I wouldn't call cloak of shadow, cheat death and shadowstep a nerf... cloak of shadow and shadowstep even got buffed since they were first released...

Anyway rogues seems to be doing more than alright on damage meters in PvE, not to mention that well geared PvE geared rogues can do really good in 2v2 without the resillience

Senex
17-06-2008, 08:56 AM
What the fuck are on you about? we only got shit nerfs since TBC was released
Indeed, they need to bring 360 degree Cleaves and old Glancing Blows back.

Oh wait.

Manuva
17-06-2008, 12:31 PM
Obviously, a lot more than you give them credit for. However, the idea of a rogue raiding with over 40 points in subtlety worries me even more than the idea of stacking rogues with hunters, and in return losing all the warrior/shaman/druid goodness in exchange for combo points which aren't scarce even as it is.

Hence why this talent would be put to more use in the Assasination or Combat tree, imo. As the the new combat talents right now are a bunch of random PVP talents.

Proterra
17-06-2008, 12:48 PM
HAY GUYSZ WFS GOIN ON IN HErE???


but yeah. what's up with the combat tree anyway?


and more importantly when do we get more rouge only silly hats

Morilith
17-06-2008, 09:08 PM
Hence why this talent would be put to more use in the Assasination or Combat tree, imo.

Except neither of those need more combo point generation, really. I can see it working with subtlety in pvp perhaps, which isn't surprising seeing how subtlety never was much of a pve tree anyway.

Matzumo, seriously. Get some remote clue before you post utter shit.

Hurtgen
22-06-2008, 05:52 PM
Combat is boring, but it does the job, and really if ure being asked to give everything you normally havto spec the boring spec. ie t6 destro locks SB spam.

i feel like theirs too many TRICKS involved in Assasination to bring to the table. where as the combat is more focussed around mostly +dmg talents. (with the odd thing like imp sprint etc)

anyway, wat id like to discuss, is if (in its current state) you try to take 51 combat talents, after the 41 cookie upto surprise attacks, the following talents dont seem to give any EXTRA dps, their all indirect and dont add to DPS, which makes me think if the 51 talent point is worth it at all.

by this im talking about ''Stay of Execution'' + ''Unfair advantage'' which could be called survivabilty talents. im hoping they change the lower levels of our tree. becouse i can see having Sealfate + 41 combat points, being nicer than that ''murder spree''. especially with discussion on EJ about if that talent will suck compared to just giving Static Normal rotation dps.

i guess it depends on how WOTLK raiding unfolds and what kind of fights were looking at.

keeping my rogue alive isnt my main concern. Bringing PURE dps is. ok, i admit were forced to take some lower combat talents that dont bring any EXTRA dps (lightning reflexes/endurance/imp sprint). maybe its just another case of having too?


this is all speculation, and suggestion. im not stating fact or anything. im just curious.


ps. does anyone else feel a tad screwed with the throwing specialization talent...another box NOT to tick, much like that crappy daze blade twising.

Slicer
22-06-2008, 06:34 PM
http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9zyxm

For those wanting the calculator.

http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9c53201053t2530520200501500232120501051z00

That's roughly what I'm taking as a raid spec, all of this is subject to change though.

Theleb
22-06-2008, 09:25 PM
Aye, thats going to be the pwn - I'm interested to see what kind of dagger specs become en vogue as Blizzard did promise to Buff them in WoTLK....I was thinking 44/22/5 as it was mentioned over on EJ and I miss daggers...

http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9c532310530210250012050013003203052d25s5z

Quick note:

*Hunger for Blood... ~60-90 dps per talent point
*Focused Attacks... ~ 21-24 dps per talent point.
*Deadly Brew... > 30 DPS per point.
*Blood Spatter..~ 15 DPS [per talent point]
*Devious Poisons... >12-15 DPS per point
*Vile Poisons... ~12 DPS per point.
*Improved Poisons... >10 DPS per point.
*Cut to the Chase... closer to 10 DPS per point than 16.

Or maybe:

http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9c5323101t32030510205501d23212052105105z

Corruption
22-06-2008, 10:58 PM
Are these official?

Some of those cannot be real, such as Stay of Execution which makes Execute impossible on a rogue.

Theleb
22-06-2008, 11:55 PM
These are current and subject to change. To be honest, with a talent that deep in the combat tree I wouldn't worry about yet another "cheap death" Talent for PvP.....unless of course said rogue chooses to PvP with a Combat Build but then he doesn't get the stronger talent of Cheap Death which is clearly better even post nerf.

There was some speculation by Ming (please form an orderly queue in order to shout "Ming is a fucking Cunt" and you're behind me to start with) that its possible Mutilate will be a highly en vogue build because the main problem with ShS is that it lacks a lot of energy generation and its dps might not be enough to deal with level 80 characters of other classes....

Well its possible I guess but the lack of dedicated PvP tools from Sub seems a high price to pay.

Then again....

http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9c53231053021025021505001351ze552003100230121m

Prep Daggers? Hmmmm.....

http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9c53231053021025001zn552003130232121050135201d

Zonie
27-06-2008, 01:00 AM
Whilst I appreciate that this is all unconfirmed, I'd guess that

http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9c532010531s2330520200501500232100501351z00

Becomes Combat Swords raid spec.

Do the 'Stay of Execution' and 'Prey on the Weak' talents have synergy? By that I mean does the tooltip "...and you are treated as if you are at full health" mean that when calculating 'Prey on the Weak' it will always assume you are 100% health if you have 3/3 SoE talent, and therefore the increased crit damage will always be active from the PotW talent?

And how about

http://war-tools.darlinganime.com/index.php?t=rogue.8472&b=9c53231053021025021005011351005305002005zt

As a potential Mutilate raid build? I cant decide where the point should go in Blood Spatter or Devious Poisons. Deadly Brew is an interesting talent, I think it's suggesting that a mutilate rogue could go Double IP and get the IP effect and the DP effect from 1 poison.

Managing energy, SnD (and Find Weakness) uptime and combo points in this build depending upon the crit procs of the Cut to the Chase talent, could provide a very challenging and fun playstyle.

Zonie
27-06-2008, 01:15 AM
anyway, wat id like to discuss, is if (in its current state) you try to take 51 combat talents, after the 41 cookie upto surprise attacks, the following talents dont seem to give any EXTRA dps, their all indirect and dont add to DPS, which makes me think if the 51 talent point is worth it at all.

by this im talking about ''Stay of Execution'' + ''Unfair advantage'' which could be called survivabilty talents. im hoping they change the lower levels of our tree. becouse i can see having Sealfate + 41 combat points, being nicer than that ''murder spree''. especially with discussion on EJ about if that talent will suck compared to just giving Static Normal rotation dps.

i guess it depends on how WOTLK raiding unfolds and what kind of fights were looking at.


I guess the problem is that we don't really know how this Murder Spree talent will work. Does it mean we lose control or our character for 2.5 seconds? Does it work on a single target (ie a potential raid boss), if it does, it's basically just an additional CD for some burst.

A Cold Blood/Seal Fate would have some interesting implications for DPS cycles, you would have a lot more combo points to play with, but the question arises how do you use those without messing with the nice tight 3s/5r type of cycle we currently have? Dump into Evis? No ty in its current form.

Theleb
27-06-2008, 09:31 AM
With Murder Spree is says in the tooltip "Can hit the same target multiple times" so yes, its a CD for some burst and situational AOE.....and I guess for the Swords raid build I'd take Seal Fate over opportiunity. You might garrotte twice a fight, but you Sinister strike an awful lot more although that of course could mean CP Rotation Juggling as per a mutilate build depending on how many points you generate...as long as Rupture/Slice and Dice is up you dump spare points into Evis/Envenom.

I love daggers, always have but I'm unsure how cut to the chase and Hunger for Blood stack up against Opportunity - definite 5% dmg on your main CP generator, or a free Slice and Dice on the times that you do actually use Evis/Envenom AND it crits?

Waiting to see more Maths from the EJ guys :)

Zonie
27-06-2008, 05:53 PM
You might garrotte twice a fight, but you Sinister strike an awful lot more although that of course could mean CP Rotation Juggling as per a mutilate build depending on how many points you generate...as long as Rupture/Slice and Dice is up you dump spare points into Evis/Envenom.
The main problem I have with that is as it stands usually an eviscerate dump is a waste of energy, I tend to find it better to energy pool and make sure your rupture & snd is tight and gives some room for an unlucky streak of combat potency not proccing. I usually prefer spending the energy on another SS. Envenoming is generally considered by the maths bods to be inefficient as well due to the DP ticks you lose, even though you see prettier numbers than you do with Evis.

I use envenom as a trash ability and eviscerate hardly ever tbh. Evis NEEDS a buff in the expansion IMO.

Hurtgen
27-06-2008, 07:21 PM
the murder spree ''could'' work like thus...

u hit the talent...you get a curser similar to Mass Dispell or distract. anything in that area, gets hit by murder spree.

duno, jus speculating :D

Theleb
27-06-2008, 10:58 PM
Evis sucks Balls (I mean, a 5 point hit does less than a 1 or 2 point crit? wtf!) Envenom consumes DP..aye, this is all well known to me :)

I was merely speculating that if you treated the excess CP's as per a Mutilate build then the odd "spare" Env/Evis is actually acceptable plus it procs relentless (and find weakness in the case of Mutilate) but aye, without actually playing with it and seeing what kind of surplus there would be, and if that coincided with enough energy then I was just thinking out loud - you know how it is ^^

As for murder spree? dunno, will be interesting to find out :)

Jagg
07-07-2008, 03:14 PM
i r approve of this Theleb fellow.

:iroc:

Adharc
06-09-2008, 07:38 PM
Rogue (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8905))
Assassination
Skills

Dismantle required level changed from 75 to 20. Max range changed to 5 Yards.

Talents

Hunger For Blood damage bonus reduced from 5% to 3%. Now works with any harmful physical effect affecting you.
Cut to the Chase now affects all Eviscerate and Envenom attacks. (Old - Only affected critical strikes)
Blood Spatter has been moved from Tier 9 to Tier 2. Now Increases the damage caused by your Garrote and Rupture abilities by 15/30%. (Old - 10/20%)
Focused Attacks has been moved from Tier 9 to Tier 8.
Turn the Tables has been moved from Tier 8 to Tier 9.
Find Weakness changed from 5 points to 3 points. Now increases the damage of all offensive abilities by 3/6/9% (Old - Your finishing moves increase the damage of all your offensive abilities by 2/4/6/8/10% for 10 sec.)
Vigor has been moved from Tier 7 to Tier 3.
Deadened Nerves changed from 5 points to 3 points. Now reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%. (Old - 1/2/3/4/5%)
Master Poisoner moved from Tier 6 to Tier 9 and changed from 2 to 3 ranks. Now Increases the critical hit chance of all attacks made against any target you have poisoned by 1/2/3% and reduces the duration of all Poison effects applied to you by 17/34/50%. (Old - Reduces the chance your poisons will be resisted by 5/10% and reduces the duration of all Poison effects applied to you by 25/50%.)
Relentless Strikes has been removed. (And moved to Subtlety)
Improved Expose Armor now Reduces the energy cost of your Expose Armor ability by 5/10. (Old - Increases the duration of your Expose Armor ability by 25/50%.)
Lethality now increases the critical strike damage of all combo moves by 6/12/18/24/30%. (Old - Didn't affect all skills)
*New Talent* - Overkill (Tier 7) - Abilities used while stealthed and for 6 seconds after breaking stealth cost 10 less energy.

Combat
Skills

Sprint cooldown reduced from 5 to 3 minutes.
Evasion cooldown reduced from 5 to 3 minutes.

Talents

Murder Spree has been renamed to Killing Spree. Range has been changed to 10 yards.
Prey on the Weak now increases the damage of all your critical strike damage by 4/8/12/16/20%. (Old - Only affected normal melee critical strike, increased by 5/10/15/20/25%)
Unfair Advantage changed to Whenever you dodge an attack you gain an Unfair Advantage, striking back for 50/100% of your main hand weapon's damage. (Old - Whenever you critically hit an enemy or dodge an attack you gain an Unfair Advantage, increasing your chance to critically hit and dodge by 1/2% for 8 sec.)
Suprirse Attacks now also affects Hemorrhage.
Stay of Execution has been removed.
*New Talent* - Blood Poisoning (Tier 9) - All physical damage caused to enemies you have poisoned is increased by 1/2%.
Throwing Specialization now affects Fan of Knives as well.
Nerves of Steel changed to Reduces damage taken while affected by Stun and Fear effects by 15/30%. (Old - Reduces the duration of all Stun and Fear effects by 15/30%.)
Mace Specialization changed to - Your attacks with maces ignore up to 3/6/9/12/15% of your opponent's armor. (Old - Increases the damage dealt by your critical strikes with maces by 2/4/6/8/10%.)
Fist Weapon Specialization has been removed.
Dagger Specialization has been moved from Tier 4 to Tier 3 and now affects Fist Weapons as well.
Dual Wield Specialization has been moved from Tier 4 to Tier 1.
Endurance now reduces the cooldown of your Sprint and Evasion abilities by 30 sec/1 min. (Old - 45 sec/1.5 min)
Riposte now awards 1 Combo Point.
Improved Sprint changed from Tier 3 to Tier 4.
Improved Slice and Dice changed from 3 points to 2 points. Now Increases the duration of your Slice and Dice ability by 25/50%. (Old - 15/30/45%)
Deflection changed from 5 points to 3 points. Now Increases your Parry chance by 2/4/6%. (Old - 1/2/3/4/5%)
Precision now also increases the hit chance of your poison attacks.
Lightning Reflexes moved from Tier 1 to Tier 4.

Subtlety
Skills

Tricks of the Trade range changed to 20 yards. (Reminder - The current party or raid member becomes the target of your Tricks of the Trade. The threat caused by your next attack and all actions taken for 6 sec afterwards will be transferred to the target. In addition, all damage caused by the target is increased by 15% during this time.)
Cloak of Shadow cooldown increased from 1 to 1.5 minute.
Vanish cooldown reduced from 5 to 3 minutes.
Disarm Trap increased from 5 to 20 yards. Casting time reduced from 2 to 1 second.

Talents

Shadow Dance changed - Enter the Shadow Dance, allowing the use of Sap, Garrotte, Ambush, Cheap Shot, Premeditation, Pickpocket and Disarm Trap regardless of being stealthed. Those abilities each gain a cooldown of 2 sec. Lasts 10 sec. Instant, 2 min cooldown. (Old - Instantly enter stealth and begin the Shadow Dance. For 9 sec you will reenter stealth every 3 secs.)
Slaughter from the Shadows now also reduces the energy cost of your Hemorrhage by 1/2/3/4/5.
Wrongfully Accused has been removed.
Premeditation cooldown reduced from 2 minutes to 20 seconds.
Preparation doesn't affect Premeditation anymore.
Elusiveness moved from Tier 4 to Tier 3. Now Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 30/60 sec and your Cloak of Shadows ability by 15/30 sec.
Serrated blades moved Tier 4 to Tier 3.
Initiative moved from Tier 3 to Tier 4. Now Gives you a 33/66/100% (Old - 25/50/75%) chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Improved Ambush moved from Tier 3 to Tier 4. Changed from 3 points to 2 points. Now increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 25/50%. (Old - 15/30/45%)
Camouflage changed from 5 points to 3 points. Now Increases your speed while stealthed by 5/10/15% (Old - 3/6/9/12/15%) and reduces the cooldown of your Stealth ability by 2/4/6 sec. (Old - 1/2/3/4/5 Sec)
Master of Deception Rank 4 and 5 have been removed.
Opportunity has been changed from 5 points to 2 points. Now increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Mutilate, Garrote and Ambush abilities by 10/20%. (Old - 4/8/12/16/20%)
*New Talent* - Filthy Tricks (Tier 9) - Reduces the cooldown of your Tricks of the Trade and Distract abilities by 5/10 secs.
*New Talent* - Relentless Strikes (Tier 1, Moved from Assassination Tree) - Your finishing moves have a 4/8/12/16/20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Mutilate is gonna be awesomesauce.

I propose this spec (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=0000000000000000000000000000005303105302102 52210032010000320232131302121040000000000) for double DPS and this (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=0052302140000000000000000000005303105302102 52210032010000320232100000000000000000000) for healer-dps.