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View Full Version : Haste Vs Crit Vs mp5


Ryś
29-05-2008, 11:16 AM
[EDIT] Moved all the haste/crit vs mp5 posts to this thread rather than the talent tree discussion at the request of someone, Moocow
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And Palados, your post points towards the fact that spellhaste seems like a stat to make up for bad timing on heals. A spellhaste healer has indeed a small amount of HPS more, very marginally that is, but at the same time loses all the mana efficiency that makes us so great, unless you get a group designed for you, which won't be happening in most cases.

Just seeing several people hopping on that spellhaste wagon (mostly horde side) and theres almost no decent spellcrit pala anymore to be found.

Palados
29-05-2008, 11:43 AM
Well, first of all you can't time heals to cover spikes, since most of them save stomp in Brutallus fight are unpredictable.

Now, there are calculations on EJ and built in in new healerdine rawr module. Crit is somewhat good all-arounder, but as soon as you want extra healing power or extra efficiency you would go for healing/haste or mp5 instead. Point is, that haste while making you use more mana (and in more than 50% t6 fighs you don't go even close to oom so that is good) could also save some mana. Like I said, casting more hasted flash instead of HL could save you few k mana per fight. It's not much, but when you look at those few crit % that you traded for haste they would return about the same mana per fight.

Anyway, I was a crit-whore some time ago. But I am also a theoretical physicis and if models and calculations show that haste/heal/mp5 are good for fight X then i believe in it. There are fights where crit shines, like Brutalus. But crit effectiveness depends on SP/mana tide a lot. And unless you always have SP with you, it's not best stat to have in average. Gemming 10 haste and 4 mp5 instead of 20 crit would be better both in effectiveness and HPS, in like 85% of the T6 fights.

Harr
29-05-2008, 11:47 AM
Doesn't global cooldown get into the way with flash of light with haste gear? (Or does it reduce gcd enough too?)

Palados
29-05-2008, 11:48 AM
it reduces enough

Palados
29-05-2008, 11:51 AM
Well, as general rule of thumb for paladins - if you don't go oom go haste, since it will give biggest increase in HPS per budget point. And there are not that many fights where you really risk to go oom on regular basis (Brutallus and M'uru only in my experience). For brutallus heavy crit rocks.

Palados
29-05-2008, 11:58 AM
A spellhaste healer has indeed a small amount of HPS more, very marginally that is, but at the same time loses all the mana efficiency that makes us so great, unless you get a group designed for you, which won't be happening in most cases.


Haste gives more HPS increase than equivalent +healing, but I have yet to see someone saying - neglect healing and go crit first. Mana efficiency is good, but my point is that it can be sacrifized in too many fights without a risk of getting oom to not do it by getting haste.

I was critadin till 2.4 patch basically, then I regemmed my gear and reitemized it. Now I aim for good HL crit (around 40% buffed) and quite some haste on top of it. Of course I would try to gather heavy crit gear as well, but in general it's not worth wearing it.

Ryś
29-05-2008, 12:17 PM
How can crit be any dependant on an sp? 50% HL crit meaning your mana regen is amazing, absolutely no need for an sp group, whilst an spellhaste healer can't do without one.

Can you keep spamming max (or near) max-rank HL continously as a spellhaste healer? I know a crit healer can...

Take M'uru, it's so healing intensive you will most likely have to spam max rank HL nearly nonstop, favouring crit imo.

Faylin
29-05-2008, 12:35 PM
Doesn't global cooldown get into the way with flash of light with haste gear? (Or does it reduce gcd enough too?)

Global Cooldown gets reduced accordingly to a minimum of 1 second.

Palados
29-05-2008, 12:54 PM
Ryu, you are wrong. You make the same mistake as many other on EJ forums and it was explained many times there. Spell crit is NOT equivalent to mp5, what it does it increase your effective mana pool by mana_poool/(1-0.6xcrit%). The more mana you get from any sources, the better crit will be.

I don't remember exact number and cba to search through 50 pages of healerdine EJ forums. But fact is that SP regen increase paladin mana geometrically, not linearly and crit paladins favor SP, while in non SP/tide group in ANY real fight where you don't chaincast HL mp5 WILL ALWAYS give more mana that equvalent (that is important) crit. ALso funny thing is, that crit is better the more mp5 you have already.

If you are interested in exact numbers, look here http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16934-healadin_thread/p1

It was proven that crit is as good (or better) than equivalent mp5 only if you have SP/tide, if you don't look at unrealistics 2-3min fights.


Also, look at my previous and EJ posts. As soon as you have to chain cast HL11 and risk to go oom fast of course crit is better than haste any day. But for 1 or 2 those fight in a whole wow content you may just swap a few items around, while for all other fights haste is better and safer.

Palados
29-05-2008, 01:05 PM
Well, simple half-assed calculation:

50% crit is equivalent to 442 mp5. Let us imagine 6 min fight (Brutallus).
442 mp5 will restore 31842mana. In order for 50% crit to restore the same mana, you have to have effective mana pool of 74256 mana, that is not accessible without SP and mana tide.

Ryś
29-05-2008, 01:07 PM
Your mistake here is that you compare 442 mp5 to 50% HL crit. A pala with 50% HL crit ALSO has a fair amount of mp5 still from passive stats/buffs (should be around 170-190). So that means you can only compare roughly about 260 mp5 to 50% HL crit, and there is where you will lose the math, anytime.

Take into account that Sunwell fights are short in time, there's no long fight.


I stay with my point that haste is for people who need to hide their flaws in mistiming heals. And as I said before, you get enough passive haste on your gear in Sunwell that will do, gemming for it really seems like an utter waste.

Palados
29-05-2008, 01:12 PM
And before you make counter-example: saying that chain casting HL11 each 2.5 sec (that will result in 504 mana restored each 5 sec for 50% crit) will give you more mana back due to crit than correspondent mp5 isn't relevant. Sine we are interested not in amount of mana restored each sec, but in keeping a constant stream of HL going oom at 6th min (while chaincasting we'll go oom later and that is absolutely a no go). And fact is that 442 mp5 will allow you to cast more HL aka cast HL more often than 50% crit.

Ryś
29-05-2008, 01:13 PM
Read my edited post:

Your mistake here is that you compare 442 mp5 to 50% HL crit. A pala with 50% HL crit ALSO has a fair amount of mp5 still from passive stats/buffs (should be around 170-190). So that means you can only compare roughly about 260 mp5 to 50% HL crit, and there is where you will lose the math, anytime.

Palados
29-05-2008, 01:16 PM
Your mistake here is that you compare 442 mp5 to 50% HL crit. A pala with 50% HL crit ALSO has a fair amount of mp5 still from passive stats/buffs (should be around 170-190). So that means you can only compare roughly about 260 mp5 to 50% HL crit, and there is where you will lose the math, anytime.

Meh, you really should reread what you post a few times and not do it in a discussion fever.

I compare 50% to 442 mp5 due to the fact that those are equivalent to each other.

So that means you can only compare roughly about 260 mp5 to 50% HL crit, and there is where you will lose the math, anytime.

Wrong, really wrong. If you want to be picky, you should compare two cases, for example:

1. 50% crit and 200 mp5
2. 40% crit and 288 mp5

both cases are equivalent iLvL-wise. And if you look at these cases you will still see that mp5 is better.

or

1. 50% crit and 200 mp5 vs
2. 48% crit 218 mp5

etc

To compare two stats you have to compare the benefits of very small equivalent stat addition.

Palados
29-05-2008, 01:18 PM
Once again, YOU SHOULDN'T compare current crit and mp5 paladins have, what is more effective. But you should compare which gem (aka equivalent stat addition) will give you more benefits.

We are NOT discussing which stat that paladin has at the moment gives him more mana, we discussing adding which stat in equivalent amounts will give him more mana.


Look at initial question. It was not - should i drop crit to haste or mp5 to crit or whatever. It was " should i add extra crit or haste or mp5 to what I have now to be more effective"

Ryś
29-05-2008, 01:23 PM
No im posting it because on the one hand we have a paladin who has 442 mp5 (buffed, gems, enchants etc) and on the other hand we have a paladin who has 50% HL crit and STILL has about roughly 180 mp5.

It's about the mana regen of both palas, so what I'm saying is that one pala who stacked spellcrit will regen more whilst also having way more HPS.

Palados
29-05-2008, 01:27 PM
I stay with my point that haste is for people who need to hide their flaws in mistiming heals.

That is a wrong statement. Haste has nothing to do with mistimed heals. Healer who rely on haste to cover mistimed heals errors should be kicked from any SWP guild. Haste is to increase HPS during 'oh shit' moments - flurry and spell rage in muru encounter is strictly NOT healable with 2sec HL spam. Also haste helps to save some mana (lol) by casting lower rank spells instead of biger ranks.

And as I said before, you get enough passive haste on your gear in Sunwell that will do, gemming for it really seems like an utter waste.

To some extent I agree that you have enough haste and should go for another gems. But this doesn't mean haste is bad. It just means you have enough of it.



Here is the quote from Kil\jaeden guild paladin:

But I've said this many times: There's no clear-cut way to gear as a holy paladin in Sunwell, especially with the new addition of a whole new stat(haste). Healers should gear mostly off what they feel is needed, as all guilds use different strategies, take advantage of different group synergies etc. I strongly suggest you try running with 150-175 spell haste and see how you like it first if you haven't though. I might be able to supply a fraps of a Kil'Jaeden attempt to demonstrate haste's usefulness, but that obviously won't be for at least a week or two.

Getting your holy lights from 2.0 to 1.75 is a huge boost to your character's overall healing capability, needed or not. Last night on Kil'Jaeden, if my Holy Lights were at their base cast time, we would have had many more deaths I'm pretty certain.

Palados
29-05-2008, 01:29 PM
No im posting it because on the one hand we have a paladin who has 442 mp5 (buffed, gems, enchants etc) and on the other hand we have a paladin who has 50% HL crit and STILL has about roughly 180 mp5.

It's about the mana regen of both palas, so what I'm saying is that one pala who stacked spellcrit will regen more whilst also having way more HPS.


Meh....

1. Pala who stacked spell crit has 50% crit and 180 mp5.
2. Pala who stacked mp5 has STILL about 40% crit and 265mp5.

You say that pala who stacks crit still has some mp5, but it is also true that pala who stacked mp5 has still a lot of crit. And we discuss only effectiveness, not HPs at the moment.

And believe me or not, without sp/tide paladin 2 will be more efficient, with sp/tide - paladin 1. there is a math behind it and math does not lie :P.

Palados
29-05-2008, 01:35 PM
Btw, link to 'ideal gear' for many pala players http://www.chardev.org/?template=53959 (no Kiljaeden loot)

Of course you may socket crit gems in all slots, but it is hardly optimal.

Firesoul
29-05-2008, 03:09 PM
Btw, link to 'ideal gear' for many pala players http://www.chardev.org/?template=53959 (no Kiljaeden loot)

Of course you may socket crit gems in all slots, but it is hardly optimal.

No, that's a link to gear that one Paladin put up? Not many pala players.
i.e. http://elitistjerks.com/762624-post1203.html

(and cheers Prot :P)

But yeah, my gear for me is determined somewhat by how I finish fights. We can talk about efficiency all day long, but I think if I were to finish a fight like Brutallus with 30-40% of my mana left (back when we first killed him anyway), I'd probably look to take some gemming out of efficiency and move it into healing/haste.
Otherwise it's just wasted.

A lot of a person's gear is dependant on whether or not they have an s-priest. It really is that gear-defining for me. Before we started Sunwell, I drew the short straw and ended up being a Pally that wouldn't have an s-priest (when one was given...) and so I ended up stacking mp5 and healing whilst still trying to maintain around 40-ish% HL crit. Healing on Brutallus was a complete bastard for chugging mana pots and guess what? I still had issues.
The one time I had an s-priest though, I finished the fight with more than 40% of my mana pool left. Or tell a lie, I think we wiped at sub-20 or something. Yes, I was still chain-chugging mana pots, but I know that if I had a constant s-priest in my group, it would cause me to change my gear/gemming somewhat significantly.

Rykan
29-05-2008, 05:33 PM
Mm I got a little lost somewhere in the daddy or chips part but, can we come to a conclusion? You've both given good points for different situations. Although I still see mp5 lesser than crit for the fact mp5 doesn't give you more of a chance at big heals.

I have to say I have a fair bit of mana back in fights but if I go all out, kinda as Firesoul says, he ends up with a fair bit left at the end of a fight when in the right group, call it wasted if you will but I'd rather have some mana than none hehe. I'm usually (90%) in the mp5 group unless someone's desperate. Thinking maybe to get more + healing or some haste.. but er, yeah, still kinda unsure on the topic. I'm thinking + healing though due to the fact I don't really miss many heals when spamming on a MT for boss fights. And I can't see why I'd need so much cast speed reduction anyway if I'm healing one target all the time pretty much.

Confused! :(

Firesoul
29-05-2008, 05:49 PM
Mp5 reduces your chance at bigger heals, aye. But relying on crit can be dangerous as it's unpredictable (until you start getting to 45-50% anyway). Some Pallies just prefer stacking healing/mp5.

Conclusion is really that there's no set method. Just pick what's right for you and be glad you have the versatility to allow you to do so. :P

Aside from that, if you're finishing every major boss fight with lots of mana left, you're overpowered in terms of your regen, so I'd probably looks at building an alternative set for you to play with. If you finish all your big boss fights with lots of mana left, wouldn't you be better off with changing some of that regen gear for healing? Or spell crit? Or haste? or possibly even regemming the odd item?
e.g. I have a haste set (around 220 haste) that I used for trash and use for instances. Whereas my standard healing set has negligible haste (50?) and about 20 more mp5 and 2% more crit (and about an extra 100 healing). I tend to chop and change gear depending on the fight, but they're about roughly what I use. The reduced gcd is great for things like cleansing and yes, for fol spam...

Robinvi
29-05-2008, 07:32 PM
And don't enchant your weapon with +int.

Firesoul
29-05-2008, 07:48 PM
Pfft, that was back from my extreme crit stacking days. It's a decent, cheap enchant :P

edit: Just to elaborate on this, the +30 Intellect enchant is underrated given what it costs and what it gives.

Those 30 points on Int give 450 mana (495 max ), a WHOPPING +10.5 healing, and around 0.45-ish crit. That's not a bad all-round enchant imo.

Rykan
29-05-2008, 11:13 PM
e.g. I have a haste set (around 220 haste) that I used for trash and use for instances. Whereas my standard healing set has negligible haste (50?) and about 20 more mp5 and 2% more crit (and about an extra 100 healing). I tend to chop and change gear depending on the fight, but they're about roughly what I use. The reduced gcd is great for things like cleansing and yes, for fol spam...

You'll have to show me the haste gear sometime :) I wouldn't mind trying that myself. Get terribly bored in trash. Wouldn't mind some pointers to which gear's worth hunting down.

Rykan
29-05-2008, 11:22 PM
I will add though.. fix Pendant of the Violet Eye already. :(

Firesoul
30-05-2008, 12:24 AM
Battlemaster's Alacrity - +40
Brooch of Nature's Mercy - +33
Cloak of Ancient Rituals - +25
Girdle of Lordaeron's Fallen - +38
Band of Lucent Beams - +22
Dawnsteel Bracers - +28
Signet of the Quiet Forest - +30

So yeah, er tell a lie. 216 haste rating (and tell a lie again, I dumped the belt and just have +20 haste in my Hyjal belt now - so 198 rating...). That drops my gcd to around 1.3 seconds (on er Quartz, anyway), which is great for cleansing on mobs (like the Mother trash) and for spamming fol on trash.
But that can be improved somewhat. You could have an extra 8 rating from replacing the Sunwell ring with a Blessed Band of Karabor.
There's also +40 rating from the mail chest from Zul'Jin.
Dark Blessing gives +30
The mail shoulders from ZA give +30
Illidan cloak is an extra 10
If you're that insane then you could probably dump another Battlemaster's Alacrity in there too - although unsure if this is possible.
Which is an extra 158 rating on top of all this - and you haven't even entered Sunwell.

The only issue you have with most of this gear (other than probably the chest from Zul'Jin and the rings) is that you severely gimp your regen, which renders it useful for nothing more than trash healing. But the important thing is that it makes trash healing a bit more enjoyable, and having fun is I suppose what you're there for, really.

Btw I'm sure someone will come along and blow all this out of the water, but I speak from first-hand experience of what it's like to stack haste, and ultimately, it makes a tedious job significantly less so. If I were you though I would definitely hold on to some of the better items - i.e. the ones that give regen with it. They're pretty valuable.

And I thought they fixed Pendant last I checked. D: At least, I seem to be regenerating mana through it last time I tested it.

Rykan
30-05-2008, 01:34 AM
Well, mine's still buggered. : /

Hmm thanks for the details. I'll work on something soon and give it a go. I barely get a chance to do much in trash healing at the moment so, can't hurt to try!

Palados
11-06-2008, 02:31 PM
OK, while doing rought calculations for EJ forums I found an interesting result. If you took about t6 geared paladin (2450 +healing and 25% holy crit buffed), than going haste is going to SAVE you mana due to downranking.

More precise, if you compare 2 situations:
a) getting extra crit to get more mana while casting HL11
b) getting extra haste to increase HL10 HPS

then case (b) will be more efficient. You would need 167 haste to match HPS of HL10 hasted and HL11 unhasted and for average spam save around 1250 mana per minute due to downranking, while to reach same mana saving for HL 11 spam you would need around 214 spell crit. Thus haste becomes more mana efficient than crit and much more efficient than mp5 (for given situation ofc, when you go from HL11 to HL 10 spam).

Firesoul
12-06-2008, 08:12 AM
Again, it's situational though?
A crit build is way better than a haste build when fighting bosses like Brut. And pretty sure you'll get shot if you're found to be casting rank 10s on Stomp. :P It just comes down to dropping well-timed big heals.

Palados
12-06-2008, 12:33 PM
However, haste would help you to land faster HL11 reactively, if stomp timer was not correct (for example due to burn/slach right before stomp) and your heal landed before stomp.

Haste is better than crit sutiational of course. Just the result that haste could save you more mana than crit in some situations due to using more downranking spells (but keeping HPS the same) is not very obvious. Thats why I wanted to post it so people are aware of it.

Nered
07-11-2008, 06:59 AM
and theres almost no decent spellcrit pala anymore to be found.
Wanna bet?:)
P.S. I know this thread is outdated.. but felt like refreshing it as it's interesting.
EDIT: By the way, what's your view of haste with the current talents/spells and optional haste you get from items at level 80?
Personally never thought of building up haste while going through Sunwell. Now that we have haste added when judging and Infusion of Light, why do I think a haste is a no-go?
As far as I could notice, haste/mp5/healing was ideal for FoL(ignore this part, if you are sane enough I guess you'd avoid using FoL occasionally on boss encounters)/mainly HL downranking.
Crit was all the way for me when it comes to maxrank HL, so I'd agree with Ryś. In total, I for example had the most mana gained during the boss encounter (specifically aiming at Brutallus pre-patch) over others that were in SP group, and warlocks.

Palados
07-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Downranking and new pala talents change haste value of course. It is easy to reach 'soft' cap in raids after judging when your GCD is lowered to 1 sec. Currently it seems that paladins will stack haste till that cap and then go... int. That is our new 'imba' stat.

100 Intellect gives you:
126.5 Intellect, with BoK and Divine Intellect
1897 Mana at the start of the fight
39.5mp5 from Divine Plea, if its used on CD.
21.3mp5 from Replenishment, with 90% uptime.
4.7mp5 from Arcane Torrent, if you are a Blood Elf.
25.3 Spell Power
0.759% Spell Crit

100 int = 40 mp5 = 100 Spell Crit that gives +2.17% crit rate at 80.

So, first of all int returns more mana than equivalent mp5 in raids. It gives 1/3 of the equivalent crit but also 25.3 spellpower on top of that and almost 2k extra mana.

Now, when crit could outperform int? Only if you more or less spam HL for some extended period of time. However, looking at lvl 80 spells and scaling, if paladin spams HL no healing class comes even remotely close in single target HPS and it means that no other healer could keep the tank alive where pala is forced to spam HL. It is safe to assume that Blizzard won't create an encounter than requires mad single target HPS. And thus we won't spam HL. In this situation int outperforms crit.

I know that many palas like to stack crit - big number, loads of mana back. But if math shows that some other stat is better, then real minimaxer will stack that stat (and if situation changes in some patch he uses a few k gold to regem/reenchant his gear for maximal performance).

Palados
07-11-2008, 11:37 AM
In total, I for example had the most mana gained during the boss encounter (specifically aiming at Brutallus pre-patch) over others that were in SP group, and warlocks.

Hehe, actually having SP would make your crit even better since it sorta multiplies all mana that you get from different sources. I have seen a parse where paladins with 2 SP had 30k (!) mana restored via crits only on Brutallus fight (they used over 90k mana in 6min fight duo healing the tanks).