Log in

View Full Version : Some Season4 Info (no date)


Ailith
22-04-2008, 04:52 PM
While Season 3 is still going strong, we wanted to announce ahead of time the rating requirements that will be present for arena items once Season 4 begins. We also wanted to give everyone a heads up to some changes that will be in an upcoming patch, altering how points are gained and players are matched in the arena system. The patch with these changes is scheduled to release before the start of Season 4.

First though, the rating requirement changes:

When Season 4 begins, Season 3 items will be reduced in personal and team arena rating requirement to:
Shoulders: 1950
Weapon: 1800

The new Season 4 items will have the below personal and team arena rating requirements:
Shoulders: 2200
Weapon: 2050
Head: 1700
Chest: 1600
Legs: 1550
Gloves: none
Off-hand: none

In addition, some of the Season 4 quality items that will be purchasable with honor will also carry a personal and team arena rating requirement:
Boots: 1700
Ring: 1650
Bracers: 1575
Belt: none
Necklace: none
Trinket: none

The Season 2 items, which will move to the honor system when Season 4 begins, will continue to have no rating requirement.

The changes to the rating requirements for these items reflect the nature of the items, their power, and the relative difficulty that should be had when attempting to obtain them. These items are comparable to those found in the newest 25 person raid zone, Sunwell Plateau, and should therefore also feel very challenging to obtain.

To help ensure that the challenge in obtaining these items stays true to those achieving these ratings, we'll also be implementing new rules with an upcoming patch to curb practices that undermine the core concepts of the arena system. These rules are as follows:

* If a characterís personal rating is more than 150 points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating.


This means that a player cannot join a highly rated team and begin earning points based purely on the pre-established rating of the team before they joined it. They'll need to compete, improve, and gain a personal rating worthy of the points they would receive.

* If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is more than 150 points below the teamís rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating.


This means that players cannot join a highly rated team and immediately face highly rated opponents, easily and quickly bringing their personal rating up. Instead they'll need to again compete, improve, and earn their rating.

We're excited to see these changes implemented, which will continue to emphasize the strong competitive nature of the arenas, and the challenge in obtaining the highest end rewards available for PvP.

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=3778917992&postId=37785479177&sid=1#0

Bleetman
22-04-2008, 05:38 PM
I can't begin to describe how unbelieveably shitty I find it to add arena rating to gear obtained from an entirely different reward system.

And the gear gap grows steadily wider.

Slicer
22-04-2008, 06:00 PM
I find it hilarious to be honest.

Chonsette
22-04-2008, 06:03 PM
I find it hilarious to be honest.

And awesome.

Rey
22-04-2008, 08:19 PM
Welfare badge gear go!

Robinvi
22-04-2008, 09:04 PM
Should have PvE requirement for Badge gear too :p

NaHaliel
22-04-2008, 09:23 PM
I can't begin to describe how unbelieveably shitty I find it to add arena rating to gear obtained from an entirely different reward system.

And the gear gap grows steadily wider.

I find it quite reasonable that you now need 1700 rating to be 4/5 S4 + all S4 honor gear. It's a reasonably low rating requirement, and at least requires you to be at least somewhat good at pvp to have gear at that level, much like you need to be "somewhat good" at pve to obtain decent pve gear.
________
Live sex (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

Flawless
22-04-2008, 09:49 PM
I still find it odd how they aren't tweaking the requirements for each battlegroup, no battlegroup is the same. Some are harder, some are easier.

Slicer
22-04-2008, 10:04 PM
Too much work and a lot of arguments would ensue about people arguing which battlegroup was better.

Rey
22-04-2008, 11:38 PM
I still find it odd how they aren't tweaking the requirements for each team setup, no team setup is the same. Some are harder, some are easier.

fixt

Gyundor
22-04-2008, 11:39 PM
Should have PvE requirement for Badge gear too :p

/nod

Bleetman
23-04-2008, 12:42 AM
I find it quite reasonable that you now need 1700 rating to be 4/5 S4 + all S4 honor gear. It's a reasonably low rating requirement, and at least requires you to be at least somewhat good at pvp to have gear at that level, much like you need to be "somewhat good" at pve to obtain decent pve gear.
Good at arena, not pvp. It makes arena teams mandatory for any pvp now, and I resent that.

NaHaliel
23-04-2008, 04:40 AM
Good at arena, not pvp. It makes arena teams mandatory for any pvp now, and I resent that.

To be fair, arena is the only way to test if a player is good at pvp. You can't really be verifiably "good" at pug battlegrounds, which is the only other form of pvp available at the moment after the matchup changes. Noone is complaining that raiding is mandatory for any meaningful pve gear progression, right? (before people start nitpicking, badges of course offer some great items, but for many specs they are not something that you could form a full set of equivalent raiding tier gear from).

I would go so far as to claim that 1700 is a reasonably low requirement for any arena setup that makes any logical sense at all in any battlegroup. Granted, it might be substantially easier to achieve with certain setups than others, but on balance I do not see it as an excessive requirement, and it stops the silly phenomenon that within a few months from season start the only difference between a 2.5k rated player and a 1.3k rated player is shoulders and weapon - you don't see this in pve, and you shouldn't have it in pvp as well.

With the lack of rating requirements and lower cost on S3 items in S4, people will still have options. And at the end of the day, it's not such a huge "gear gap" between S3 and S4.
________
BeautifullNightmare (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/BeautifullNightmare/)

Stabstalker
23-04-2008, 05:47 AM
Now you can tell the difference from nubs and pros!

Turiel
23-04-2008, 08:25 AM
I too think the honor rewards should be kept as seperate from arena - they're all centered around PVP of course, but as someone else mentioned, its a seperate award system and some people that like doing BGs don't like doing arena (and vice versa im sure).

There's also some truth to the fact that we're in a difficult battlegroup (many would agree thats its the most difficult). A team that achieves 1600 here (mine, qq) could well be 2000ish in another battlegroup. Whereas the difficulty of SWP isn't relative, it doesn't change from server to server, and there's no "ladder" competition. As Stabstalker said, now you can tell the difference between nubs and pros, the problem is for us that the pros are actually in fact real pros who (can) play for a living.

Rey
23-04-2008, 11:00 AM
Obviously all the pro players rolled warriors and druids

Ailith
23-04-2008, 12:47 PM
and rogues!

<<

Ailith
23-04-2008, 12:49 PM
I think the arena rating for honor gear is a little strange, but I also think the ratings maybe easier to reach. Because you're less likely to meet full vengeful players, team sellers and so on due to the changes in team swapping etc.

That's only a theory though :o

Scouserlol
23-04-2008, 01:06 PM
This is exactly what PVE'rs wanted, a way for people not to be able to just lose 10 games and/or leech in a BG AFK and get gear and now everyones still whining.

Stabstalker
23-04-2008, 01:24 PM
This is exactly what PVE'rs wanted, a way for people not to be able to just lose 10 games and/or leech in a BG AFK and get gear and now everyone PARTY HARD all day.


Fixd.

Platypus
23-04-2008, 02:33 PM
\o/

Bleetman
23-04-2008, 03:41 PM
Noone is complaining that raiding is mandatory for any meaningful pve gear progression, right?
Perhaps. But there's no requirement to raid in order to partake in any pve whatsoever that I know of.

There's also some truth to the fact that we're in a difficult battlegroup (many would agree thats its the most difficult). A team that achieves 1600 here (mine, qq) could well be 2000ish in another battlegroup. Whereas the difficulty of SWP isn't relative, it doesn't change from server to server, and there's no "ladder" competition. As Stabstalker said, now you can tell the difference between nubs and pros, the problem is for us that the pros are actually in fact real pros who (can) play for a living.
Indeed. Something that will concievably get worse when all the "nubs" quit doing arenas altogether.

Ailith
23-04-2008, 04:44 PM
A team that achieves 1600 here (mine, qq) could well be 2000ish in another battlegroup.

Well, whilst I'd like to believe that. From what I've heard tell each battle-group is pretty much the same as another up-to around 2200+ ratings. Which is where the differences actually are noticeable.

Not saying you're wrong, but I've played arena in one other battle-group. And I remember it as fairly similar (though, it's been a while now).

Wartauren
23-04-2008, 04:54 PM
I've seen a fair few guys with shoulder loose at 1600 rating after coming to cyclone.

Ailith
23-04-2008, 07:57 PM
shoulders != 2200 rating :)

and sure, you can lose at 1600 rating. I've played full vengeful teams at that rating, depends how long they stayed unable to break 1600 i guess.

Senex
23-04-2008, 08:42 PM
Keep in mind that the old stuff will still be around, so anyone will be able to get 4/5 S3, full Vindicator offset pieces, and an S2 weapon by losing 10 games a week and /afking at Galv/Balinda.

Sounds like a pretty decent 'starter set' to me.

NaHaliel
23-04-2008, 08:42 PM
Btw, after some thought I have somewhat changed my mind about this innovation.

While I stand by what I said in terms of what it should work "in an ideal world", I think in reality this novelty will kill arena altogether over a period of time.

The way ratings work is they place you in some relative standing to everyone else within a pool. The absolute number is absolutely meaningless by itself, it's the distribution that matters. Oversimplifying a bit, 1500 rating is "average" player skill, 1500+ is above average, and <1500 is below average - but the rating itself doesn't tell you ANYTHING about the quality of the "average". Gather a team of 100 "professional PvPers", and match them up in an autonomous tournament, and you may well find a 2500 cyclone player at 1500 rating if he's better than half of the tournament player pool, and worse than the other half.

Where do you settle in rating? You settle in a bracket where you have, over a reasonably large sample, a 50/50% chance of winning or losing. If you have an unlucky streak into a lower bracket, you are bound to rebound at some point, because you have a higher win chance in the lower bracket.

To illustrate, and I'm just pulling these numbers out of my ass for ease of reference, here's what an abstract arena playing field might look like for an abstract "1800-rated" player:

<1500: 99% chance of winning
1500-1600: 80% chance of winning
1600-1700: 70% chance of winning
1700-1800: 60% chance of winning
1800-1900: 50% chance of winning
1900+: 25% chance of winning

Now the win probabilities are determined by the actual population skill distribution in a particular battlegroup, but for this discussion it doesn't matter what the actual numbers are. Basically, under the assumption above your typical "1800-skilled" person would eventually settle down somewhere in the 1800-1900 bracket and stay there most of the time. If he had an unlucky streak, the lower brackets would provide increasing support for his rating and bring him right back up - assuming your skill does not deteriorate, the more you lose, the higher the probability that you will win the lower-rated games so to speak.

This works fine in the current system, because the entire arena population is relatively stable. Everyone is farming their points in their respective brackets to spend on gear upgrades. What happens when Season 4 hits?

Consider all the "under 1500-rated" 4/5 S3 players - there are more than you would think. They can grab S4 gloves only, and... that's it. Until WotLK hits, there's no sense for them to keep playing arena, because they will never be able to buy any more S4 pieces, and so attrition will start - every day the <1500 pool will start dwindling.

However, the <1500 bracket provided "support" (50%+ win probability) for 1500-1600 bracket players. With "<1500" population dwindling rapidly, the old 1500-1600 bracket players will no longer have their "rating support" and will become the new 1500-ish point of reference. The entire system will re-normalize. Again and again.

With more people getting disheartened at the lower rating brackets, with no prospects of actually obtaining anything for their time commitment due to the rating requirements, arena attrition in the lower rating brackets will grow. The "support" for the higher rating brackets will dwindle, and people who are now at a reasonable 1700+ rating (which would theoretically enable them to become 4/5 S4 with all S4 honor epics) will start dipping to 1500 and below - simply because even with unchanged skill/setup viability, the quality of the arena player pool will begin to significantly increase over time. And then these people will begin to quit also, creating a vicious cycle.

The concept of rating requirements for almost all pvp gear is great "in theory". In practice, due to human nature and their lack of motivation to continue activities which grant them no rewards, arena will slowly die over time with this new approach.


P.S. I guess I will go post this in the EU forums as well... I don't think Blizzard realize the implications of what they are doing.
________
Beststrip4You (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Beststrip4You/)

Platypus
23-04-2008, 08:51 PM
Now, that's interesting, but how can you successfully be stuck under 1500 with 4/5 vengeful?

NaHaliel
23-04-2008, 08:55 PM
Now, that's interesting, but how can you successfully be stuck under 1500 with 4/5 vengeful?

Because it does not take actual skill to get 4/5 in S3, better PvPers just do it faster.

You can be horrible and play your 10 games a week somewhere in a 1350-1450 bracket, and given how long each season actually lasts, you will have your 4/5 S3 by the end of it.
________
Medical Marijuana (http://dispensaries.org/)

Ailith
23-04-2008, 11:57 PM
The theory works if each arena 'range' contained a definite number of players, however, as the rating increases there are less players in that range. This leads to something similar to a 'bubble sort' algorithm, where the better players end up at the higher ratings regardless of the number of total players in the pool. Due to everyone being introduced at the '1500 average' rating. It should end up with 1500 beng the rating for the 'average' player.

Didn't put much thought to that, just my initial brain fart :) and i'm not entirely sober atm -_-

Bleetman
24-04-2008, 02:04 AM
I was under the assumption it was only possible for a certain percentage of teams to achieve the higher ratings.

Turiel
24-04-2008, 08:17 AM
I was under the assumption it was only possible for a certain percentage of teams to achieve the higher ratings.

Yes, thats correct.

Great post Nahaliel :)

—ightrain
24-04-2008, 08:40 AM
They should've added 2 sets really, S4 for the players that are currently in 4/5 parts S3 at 1500 or less rating who are only winning any matches because of their gear, and then another set for the players who got the ratings required.

I think it's a good idea though, i'm fed up with losing matches just because i'm outgeared, if they cant get above 1500 rating with 4/5 S3 then they shouldn't be allowed to rely on gear to hold their rating up.