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Ajial
03-04-2008, 08:36 AM
Alright, since this forum has been a bit dead of late (except for the retri thread), i thought id start up a dicussion on this. It recently dropped for me and i've been using it in raids, without using this i have some 2300 healing, with i have like 2200 or so, what do you think? Mp5 isnt really a primary stat, but in BT i have found it of some use, and having another healthstone thats not on gcd is kinda useful, so... what do you think?

Palados
03-04-2008, 08:51 AM
Why not use it as improved holy shock to heal other without gcd? I found it at least interesting trinket and will play around, though the one from Malakrass gives me more HPS averaged. But having something you can unload after burst while casting HL is an interesting option.

Btw, for you it may be even more handy - your funny 78 mp5 in fight is hardly suitable for T6, especially late T6. Even palas who go for +healing no matter what agree that unbuffed mp5 value should be around 90-100. Especially since you are not alchemist and have no stone to buff mana pot output.

Ajial
03-04-2008, 08:54 AM
Well i tend to use a flask/regen food/oil and really cant say i have any problems tbh

Palados
03-04-2008, 09:18 AM
By swapping 4 18heal gems in blue slots on 9heal and 2 mp5 and changing mp5 food for +healing food, you would both get same mp5, extra +8 healing AND socket bonuses. You can also play with some heroic gems, like heal/crit in your chest piece. But I can assure you, simply by smart regemming and change of food you would win without loosing a single stat.

Palados
03-04-2008, 09:24 AM
From EJ pala thread:

If I'm dealing with a socket bonus, I also check the level of the socket bonuses in my calculations. So for example, for [Crystalforge Leggings] even though the socket encourages the use of mp5 (and therefore an overall loss of effective points on a gem) the socket bonus compensates for this (an extra 4.5 pts), so I would put a [Royal Shadowsong Amethyst] in it because it is the highest pt (healing) gem I can fit in that socket while getting the socket bonus.

kris
03-04-2008, 09:28 AM
Using super mana potions on CD gives equals 100 mana/5, vastly diminishing any tiny bits of mana/5 on items. Seems like a crappy trinket to me, only thing people have been using it for is to link it with HS in a macro, producing a 4k instant heal.

Palados
03-04-2008, 09:33 AM
Ye, Kris. But this discussion is on EJ forums too. Point is that in some fights, especially if your raid has not enough healing power or not enough variety of healing classes for optimal assignement, 100mp5 from pots won't cut. If you exclusively FoL then it might me OK, but still breakdown for FoL spam (1 cast per 2 sec) with 20% holy crit for average to long fight is 250mp5 buffed. 100 comes from pots, about 50 from oil/flask/food. And about 90-100 you have to provide. If you have alchstone, it changes things ofc, since pots provide 140mp5.

Ajial
03-04-2008, 09:37 AM
I'm not saying you're wrong, i just cant say ive had any problems so far other then on fights like Najentus/bloodboil, but i honestly cant see an extra 10 mp5 changing that. Plus you have to remember blessing of wisdom and mana stream on top of that

Palados
03-04-2008, 09:38 AM
Also, another option - gearing your retridins/protadins into purely heal/mp5 gear (mostly shammy items) allows you to use them quite effectively, if needed. Their FoL is about the same of equally geared healerdines (those have much more points invested into crit) and they are nice for streamhealng MT.

Palados
03-04-2008, 09:40 AM
Aye, ofc, different gear choises are OK as soon as people are doing their job. I am just a kind of a person, that tries to optimize everything in my gear. And if I see that something can be improved by simple regemming/reenchanting and swapping items around, I go for it. And if I see that my paladins could improve something without loosing anything, I force them to do it. It's not about extra mp5, it's about squeezing max out of your gear :D.

Ajial
03-04-2008, 09:43 AM
I totally agree, if i had known that I would haven gotten more from gemming the way you suggested when i was gemming it, I would have done it... but im not spending a few hundred gold for 8 extra healing :P I will keep it in mind for future gemming though :)

Palados
03-04-2008, 09:45 AM
Man, just to show how picky I am - I bough 2 epic gems in summer paying 1.5k gold for extra 6 heal in my gear (that was 75% of my money at that time).

Palados
03-04-2008, 09:51 AM
Tbh, the choise of trinkets is very situational. On Brutalus I would go for scarab for haste procs and some heavy HPS trinket. For Najentus I use at least one mp5 trinket (usually even 2 - Malakrass one and BWL gem). Even if I am on caster group healing+melee offhealing plus MT FoL I don't go oom now. Basically due to the fact that I could have very high mp5 (hello Kazrogal pants, etc), when we have 4 healerdines around I usually give me non standard (for palas) assignements. Where effectiveness of 80mp5 paladin would be an issue even with potions chaindrinking.

And don't get me wrong - don't go for mp5 in cost of healing. I do it in cost of sta/int/crit.

kris
03-04-2008, 10:17 AM
This isn't a discussion about healing/crit/mana5, it's about Vial of the Sunwell. My personal opinion is that it has very situational use and is generally outclassed by most other healing trinkets. I even read a comparison between it and the LC revered trinket and both came pretty equal in effectiveness.

Firesoul
03-04-2008, 10:38 AM
Aye, it's pretty limited in pve. There are way better trinkets available out there.
However, it works through spell lock, and with no gcd activation from it, it's not bad for pvp.

Palados
03-04-2008, 10:39 AM
Hum, let's see. Book is about -5 mana per cast for chaincasting with average latency. It is comparable with this trink in efficiency if you cast 3 spells in 5 sec, aka chaincast FoL.

Firesoul
03-04-2008, 10:48 AM
You can't really compare the two since their passive/use functions are practically the opposite of each other, Palados. They're pretty different trinkets when it comes down to it.
Better off comparing Vial with Piston (which it's better than), or the Malacrass one (which beats it hands down).

Bleetman
03-04-2008, 11:08 AM
Aye, it's pretty limited in pve. There are way better trinkets available out there.
However, it works through spell lock, and with no gcd activation from it, it's not bad for pvp.
It also has twice the range of holy shock and doesn't cost a chunk of mana. I'd rate it above any other for pvp, currently.

Palados
03-04-2008, 11:13 AM
I know, I just tried to find out how one could come to statement that Kris made. I have all more or less healer viable trinkets in game save illidan and naxx ones (I even have viscidus trink). Swap them around quite a lot, but one of the best combo (subjectively) is rejuw gem and malakrass trink when I want effectiveness scarab/badge trink when I want HPS.

Valoran
03-04-2008, 11:43 AM
I know, I just tried to find out how one could come to statement that Kris made.
You learn to just ignore Kris' one line statements without backing.


Vial is a decent mp5 trinket, but it's far from the best out there, for any gearset (PvE. It's use in PvP is quite nice however, spell locks ftl and it can situationally make a huge difference.

kris
03-04-2008, 12:40 PM
Valoran, there's no need to prove your total ignorance once again. It's quite obvious you're only capable of bashing other people's opinions without actually producing a single creative thought. I haven't made a single statement here, just giving my opinion, why Palados decited to call it a "statement" is quite a mystery to me. Healers have different healing styles, they also prefer different types of gear. Some, like Palados, apparently prefer mana/5 gear, others go for pure heal/crit. And only an arrogant prick like you would have the audacity to claim he knows which is better.

Valoran
03-04-2008, 01:08 PM
Valoran, there's no need to prove your total ignorance once again.
Prove my ignorance by actually showing which point I've made is incorrect. Other than making a vague statement about how ignorant I am. (again, this is exactly what I'm use to from you and another example of the comment I made earlier in this thread in action).
Healers have different healing styles, they also prefer different types of gear. Some, like Palados, apparently prefer mana/5 gear, others go for pure heal/crit. And only an arrogant prick like you would have the audacity to claim he knows which is better.
Whatever stat you want and however you prefer to heal (even if it's been proven to be worse than other healing "styles"), there are better options for it than this trinket. If, however, you want the use effect (which as I said is situation ally powerful in PvP), then go for it. I don't see how this is claiming that someone else's opinion is false. If someone states this is the best mp5 trinket available, they are wrong. That's simple math. If they claim it's the best HPS trinket, they are also wrong in the same respect. Is this arrogance? That's your stupidity to claim otherwise because you don't agree despite the opinion I gave not differing greatly from your own.

Senex
03-04-2008, 01:12 PM
This is a good trinket for its level of gear progression (that is, a drop off a heroic 5-man boss). Of course it's no Memento, but it's better than, say, the 13 Mp5 trinket off heroic Shaffar.

[Random note: I know several healers who refer to the practice of charging up the Vial with Rank 1 fast heals as "submitting one's urine sample".]

Palados
03-04-2008, 01:26 PM
Hehe, I don't prefer mp5 gear. I have all types and combos of gear, including most of the haste non-sunwell pieces available. Over 2 bags of healing gear, while having all T4 in the bank. I swap crit/haste/mp5/heavy heal pieces depending on fight and assignement, but prefer to farm in mp5/heal(aka spd) gear though.

Kris, I don't offence you. I just decided to look at statement (yes, it was a statement imho) about vial and book effectiveness comparision for certain healing situations and found it viable.

kris
03-04-2008, 02:55 PM
I said I read a post by a guy, comparing the vial with the book, including all the math you might need and they were pretty similar. Ajial asked whether we considered the vial viable in a raid environment and I posted my opinion that it is not and there are better alternatives. For a pure heal/crit healer like me this trinket is useless, for a resto shammy lusting for mana/5 it might be awesome. It's all up to the player to decide whether he prefers some gear over another.

Senex
03-04-2008, 04:24 PM
Does Vial work when you're silenced?

Palados
03-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Yes

Borwin
04-04-2008, 10:20 PM
then.. give

Thrane
04-04-2008, 11:49 PM
This is a good trinket for its level of gear progression (that is, a drop off a heroic 5-man boss). Of course it's no Memento, but it's better than, say, the 13 Mp5 trinket off heroic Shaffar.

Bad example tbh :P Since she also drops the very best melee trinket ingame :P (well, for me at least, dno how the other trinkets scale for the other chums!)

Platypus
05-04-2008, 09:34 AM
The melee trinket is just win ;)

Vegelus
05-04-2008, 10:05 AM
Both melee trinkets are just win ;)
fixed

Miniloth
05-04-2008, 06:32 PM
I got the trinket today and have not really tried it yet, but I'm running at 216 mp/5 atm (casting) raidbuffed with a reasonable amount of crit about a 1-4 chance (25%).
Its it more a pvp than a pve item, or worthwile just for that freeheal, thats not using the GCD?

Oh and does this macro bump it a little, to make it more usefull:
/use Vial of the Sunwell
/cast Divine Favor
/cast Holy Shock(Rank 5)

Firesoul
06-04-2008, 11:09 AM
If I had to choose between that and the Piston you've got equipped, I'd pick this - because you can control when the heal from it procs, whereas with the Piston it's just hit and hope it procs (kinda like our spell crit :P).

Dinmomz
14-04-2008, 06:41 AM
ive used this on and off for a couple of weeks now and i must say i like it. coupled with holy shock it gives a nice instant heal and i quite liked it at fights where you can get silenced. used it a few times on Azgalor and i even saved someone on Aran (after he ran into me and i wasnt paying attention) with it.

for effective HPS i probably wouldnt use it tho, atm i would probably use the mp5 JC trinket and that trinket Aran drops (wich i quite like... at least until i get a Memento :p )

Miniloth
14-04-2008, 02:31 PM
Well I took off the piston and used this instead, coupled with the holy shock it has been clicking at around 5-6000 heal for really no mana at all, + having a shadowpriest in BT helps a hell of a lot for the mana regain anyway.

Palados
14-04-2008, 05:43 PM
If you have no problem in mana this trinket converts only in 2k heal each 2min. Not something worth using even over badge rewards trink.

Platypus
14-04-2008, 06:17 PM
I think it's more of a priest toy, it's helps them to stay out of the FSR

Bleetman
14-04-2008, 10:55 PM
If you have no problem in mana this trinket converts only in 2k heal each 2min. Not something worth using even over badge rewards trink.
We established that it's more of a pvp thing a few pages back. It really doesn't need restating that it's a bit meh for pve.