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View Full Version : The Racial Discussion... again


Scouserlol
17-03-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm just wondering how game breaking some of the racials are in a pvp environment at the moment for everyone? Are their certain class combinations that you win/lose against based completely on your racials? The reason I asked is because while watching Nerf Sap 10, Happyminti explains mid way through a fight against a Priest that as she was Dreanei she stood no chance. A Dwarf on the other hand with Stoneform and Desperate Prayer has a much better chance of survival and can even beat them in some cases. I realise that this is only to counter poisons from a 2 rogue set up and the extra heal to help with the focus burst, but surely it must come up in other situtations also? I noticed someone with an arena team yesterday with a rogue in it and it was called 'X should have rolled UD'. Playing an Orc Rogue myself, I don't know well the stun resist matches up against the extra way to break fear/seduce.

Anyways, thoughts on racials that work well for you or you feel are overpowered against you? Do you think you should be able to choose? Or maybe they should be removed?

What's the chance of them being balanced/nerfed/looked at all in WOTLK (I see alot of threads about this but I'm not sure any Blue Posters every pay attention)

Cheiftan
17-03-2008, 11:47 AM
i have a friend who contracted aids and then attempted to kill herself, so i'm finding it rather hard to laugh at your avatar.

Morilith
17-03-2008, 12:14 PM
I noticed someone with an arena team yesterday with a rogue in it and it was called 'X should have rolled UD'.

X? I am not amused.

But yes, not having wotf in 2v2 against a priest/rog team can be rather distressful.

Bulldog
17-03-2008, 12:17 PM
You all will get banned for racism. True story.

Scouserlol
17-03-2008, 12:26 PM
X? I am not amused.

But yes, not having wotf in 2v2 against a priest/rog team can be rather distressful.

Ah so it was you! Sorry about that :)

Removed the avatar, sorry Cheiftan.

Rey
17-03-2008, 01:09 PM
Ye Morreh rolled fagelf just for cybor, he wasnt thinking about pvp at that time.

Platypus
17-03-2008, 01:16 PM
Removing the racials would make Undeads unpopular :<

Stunted
17-03-2008, 01:31 PM
Removing the racials would make Undeads unpopular :<

Even more than the smelly gits are?

Windcape
17-03-2008, 01:49 PM
Yes, lets remove everything that makes the game differ in any way. Let all characters get the same models as well!!

Racials are fine, only fear ward was wrong... and it got fixed.

Undead/Blood-elf racials are not overpowered, it's a question of l2p in the end.

Senex
17-03-2008, 02:06 PM
Happyminti explains mid way through a fight against a Priest that as she was Dreanei she stood no chance.
The problem was not her choice of a race, but her selection of a class.
Draenai Warriors have no problem killing rogues despite the lack of Stoneform.

Slicer
17-03-2008, 02:10 PM
Yes, lets remove everything that makes the game differ in any way. Let all characters get the same models as well!!

Racials are fine, only fear ward was wrong... and it got fixed.

Spoken like someone who never does arenas.

Warlee
17-03-2008, 02:22 PM
Well, imo racials are fine. Its rather not about which race has particular racial, but about class combination - like undead mage or gnome warrior. Every race has nice racials thought. Its better to play with what we have than whine ;p

Scouserlol
17-03-2008, 02:32 PM
The problem was not her choice of a race, but her selection of a class.
Draenai Warriors have no problem killing rogues despite the lack of Stoneform.

I fully appreciate that it's a combination of the class and the race in conjunction with the class you're fighting. That's kind of what I was asking, are there any other fights where a similiar combination of class and race make it very difficult for the other etc etc

Scouserlol
17-03-2008, 02:34 PM
it's a question of l2p in the end.

Spoke like a true forum warrior. I was asking for input, I wasn't stating anything.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 02:43 PM
Spoken like someone who never does arenas.

Yes as this is world of Arenacraft, lets all worry about arena balancing as ofc its only arena's we play for and thats all we care about.

/petpeeve

world of arenacraft is killing this game, as everybody wants all these little changes to make arena more "balanced" and they forget about the knockon consequences for the rest of the game.
Lets Remove Racials to balance arena, oh bye bye my 10% additional reputation, i shouldnt get that as its obviously hurting others in arena, byebye my sword specialisation, that 5 expertise is giving me a huge unfair advantage in arena's, Sorry night-elf Tanks, that 1% dodge you have has to go, its overpowered in arena...


Seriously, Racials are Fine, L2P. The problem was Fearward, which is fixed. Whats wrong with the current racials?
Will of the Forsaken is a problem why? PvP certainly doesnt revolve arround fear so whats the problem with 5sec immunity every 2mins?
War stomp? A small stun that lasts 5 seconds, hardly match winning
Stoneform? 8 seconds over the 5 the others have, but with an extra minute on the cooldown, 8 second immunity to a few efects again isnt going to win the match for you.
Arcane torrent? 2second silence... TWO sure it will be annoying, but its only jsut over 1 GCD, so im sure its not going to make the biggest of problems, again on a 2min CD.

So really whats the problem, none of these are game breaking, and i cant see any of the other racials being a problem.

To the pvp crowd i say: Deal with it. You have racials and so do your opponents, racials dont make a match; Skill, dps, healing and control make a Match.
To the Pve crown i say: Whats the problem? Learn to enjoy and use your racials and keep nuking those bosses.

Trupiaczacha
17-03-2008, 02:50 PM
You all will get banned for racism. True story.

oh i rofl at it :) for some weird reason ;>

Chonar
17-03-2008, 03:00 PM
Agreeing with Arthran. Your petty little Arena peeves are far, FAR less important than keeping the game and the gameplay experience versatile.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 03:05 PM
/me hands Chonar another Beer

Flawless
17-03-2008, 03:06 PM
Blizzard could just disable the use of racials in arena's if they wanted to.

Corruption
17-03-2008, 03:06 PM
A well timed racial stun or silence can infact influence who wins the match though Arthran.

Slicer
17-03-2008, 03:07 PM
oh bye bye my 10% additional reputation

Just going to repeat that if you're thinking of these as being the racials in discussion you've obviously never done arenas. The ones in question are perception, WotF and other on use abilities.

Will of the Forsaken is a problem why? PvP certainly doesnt revolve arround fear so whats the problem with 5sec immunity every 2mins?
War stomp? A small stun that lasts 5 seconds, hardly match winning
Stoneform? 8 seconds over the 5 the others have, but with an extra minute on the cooldown, 8 second immunity to a few efects again isnt going to win the match for you.
Arcane torrent? 2second silence... TWO sure it will be annoying, but its only jsut over 1 GCD, so im sure its not going to make the biggest of problems, again on a 2min CD.

For a start, warstomp isn't 5 seconds, it's 1. If it were 5, it would be completely game breaking and you have no idea how close some matches get if you think a 5 second on demand AoE stun with the only requirement being range isn't going to win a game. Perception can completely shut down an enemy rogue, denying him his opener and giving you a headstart on both a mana war and damage on his team mates. WotF isn't about some simple 5 second immunity, it's about breaking a fear, causing a DR, can be used in place of a trinket and allows the player to stay on a target and avoid CC, as well as reducing the duration of incoming CC. Certain racials allow you to completely lock down a certain class, if WoW is ever to be an 'e-sport' they have to be removed.

Edit to that, for those whining about removing racials in PvE affecting an outcome... how useful are racials in PvE? WotF some NPC fear? Perception on the assassins in Shattered Halls? Shadow meld for... going afk somewhere? Racials are near enough useless in any raiding or PvE environment, at most they remove a minor inconvenience and will almost never affect the final outcome of anything.

Windcape
17-03-2008, 03:10 PM
Spoken like someone who never does arenas.
Next up, Warglaives is not allowed in Arena :-)

And I must admit, I did my first 10 games since season one the other night. PvP is not my game, I'm here for the PvP part.
And changing the entire game-design because people all suddenly want to PvP seems kinda strange.

Everybody do remember that wotf was on a 2min cooldown right? Now it's 5min, or so I've been told.
My undead priest was melting rogue and warrior faces back in pre. TBC, I don't see warriors having a problem with shadowpriests today, wotf or not.

Racials and gear is the random factor in games. Something you just HAVE to live with. Otherwise games would be EXCACTLY the same based on team setups, and nobody would play anything but the best possible team (read: warrior/r-druid).

Random factor is what makes the games fun... People complaining about racials are rarely those in top 10.

Cheiftan
17-03-2008, 03:13 PM
Blizzard could just disable the use of racials in arena's if they wanted to.

this post wins the thread. i don't really do arenas so i must say i personally agree with arth, even if some of his arguments are a little bit strawman.

if they bother people that much in arenas (and let's face, people love something to moan about) then blizzard could just disable them.

but i bet they won't, so i guess people will have to live with it.

Slicer
17-03-2008, 03:15 PM
Next up, Warglaives is not allowed in Arena

I was doing arenas long before I got either of my glaives and would quite happily do them without them if they banned PvE weapons there.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 03:16 PM
Sure remove them on the tournament realms but ONLY on the tournament realms, as removing a racial thats effective and usefull in a pve enviroment from a pve realm would be ridiculous.

You need to remember with this whole e-sport thing they are pushing at the moment, there are dedicated tournament realms where you get to have a level 70 of your choice with the gear of your choice, so if you have a problem with people using wotf against you, well then just pick an undead rogue. On the tournament realms its not going to make a huge problem, as you can essentially pick whatever race you want for whatever racials you want. there simply is no point moaning about the racials effect on arena's.

Instead of campaigning for racials to be got rid of, why not campaign for them to be disabled within arena? then it doesn hurt battlegrounds, doesnt hurt Pve and only makes the Arena crowd happy in the pants

Windcape
17-03-2008, 03:26 PM
I was doing arenas long before I got either of my glaives and would quite happily do them without them if they banned PvE weapons there.
So we go to totaly seperate PvE and PvP then, I would be very happy if that happend.

But as the game is now, 50% of the players in arena is farming points for gear to use in PvE.
Hell, even I is going for the S3 gloves because it's a upgrade PvE wise (resilience helps on crit-immunity for druids).

And instead of changing racials in PvE (fear ward nerf in PvE was REALLY annoying *sigh*), just disable things in arena, or create arena specific realms (they are working on it).

Kudos to those who want to play arena seriously, but just don't break PvE stuff for other classes/races because you find it's unfair.

Arena PvP allready destroyed enough of the game, don't let it continue -.-

(And give some fucking defense on feral-druid Tier gear, I don't want to use this resilience crap).

Senex
17-03-2008, 03:27 PM
Cooperation and coordination are just as important (if not more) than individual gimmicks. If a Draenai Priestess is getting carved up by an opposing rogue, a timely BoP or Cyclone will save her life far more efficiently that all Azerothian racials combined.

(Of course, I admit that my Arena experience is somewhat limited. It is entirely possible that, in the nebulous reaches of 2300+ rating, matches are resolved by a sequence of 1v1 duels until only one is left standing. If so, I apologize for speaking out of turn)

Valoran
17-03-2008, 03:36 PM
(And give some fucking defense on feral-druid Tier gear, I don't want to use this resilience crap).
If you had any understanding of the druid class, you wouldn't want to use that defense crap, and would be asking for more easily available (non-pvp) resilience options. Resilience uses up less of the item budget and grants much more crit immunity point per point, why a druid would want to swap their resilience for equivalent defense rating is beyond me.

Also, the fear ward change was great across the board not "fucking annoying" just because you couldn't cheese pve encounters with it.

Saha
17-03-2008, 03:44 PM
Strangely enough I haven't seen any of the really good PvPers QQ about racials or even class disbalance. Its always some random scrub or 1.8k raiting person at best, finding "game breaking" features and runing amock to QQ on some forum.
Coinsidence?

Windcape
17-03-2008, 03:45 PM
why a druid would want to swap their resilience for equivalent defense rating is beyond me.Same reason as warriors and paladins... We get dodge from defense, okay?

I think YOU should read more up about tanking rather than me ;-)
If you still don't belive it, go to the warrior forum and tell them they should use S3 instead of Tier6.

just because you couldn't cheese pve encounters with it.
Ofcource it's fair from that perspective, but it can be really annoying on encounters like Archimonde. And alot of tanks today don't know what stance-dance means.. it's a forgotten art.

Saha
17-03-2008, 03:52 PM
If you had any understanding of the druid class, you wouldn't want to use that defense crap, and would be asking for more easily available (non-pvp) resilience options. Resilience uses up less of the item budget and grants much more crit immunity point per point, why a druid would want to swap their resilience for equivalent defense rating is beyond me.


Because there is enough defense to not use resilience and stay crit imune. Obviously droping resilience in here or there if you lack some items is a good option.
Discusion of "resilience has lower item budget" is not exactly good one. Ferals have very limited selection of gear choises at higher content and defense usualy comes by itself. Rings, cloaks, trinkets, necks.
Defense gives avoidance even if in small numbers, resilience doesn't.

Valoran
17-03-2008, 03:54 PM
Same reason as warriors and paladins... We get dodge from defense, okay?

I think YOU should read more up about tanking rather than me ;-)
If you still don't belive it, go to the warrior forum and tell them they should use S3 instead of Tier6.
My main is a warrior in full t6 who has tanked all the content currently in game, thanks, but I'm aware. :)

Warriors (and paladins) are different from druids however, my comment was specifically aimed at druids and I don't think I left any room for misinterpretation there.

You get dodge from defense (and miss), but you don't get parry or block - something which warriors and paladins do. Defense is worth more to a warrior or paladin than it is to a druid. Druids would get more (mitigation/avoidance wise) from becoming crit immune via resilience then putting any additional item points into dodge, agility or armor than they would from the same crit immunity value of defense.


Because there is enough defense to not use resilience and stay crit imune. Obviously droping resilience in here or there if you lack some items is a good option.
Discusion of "resilience has lower item budget" is not exactly good one. Ferals have very limited selection of gear choises at higher content and defense usualy comes by itself. Rings, cloaks, trinkets, necks.
Defense gives avoidance even if in small numbers, resilience doesn't.
True, but it is *more* expensive and actually gives you less for the price. Resilience and crit immunity (from a pve perspective) is balanced around parry/block, when you remove that the cost goes up for its relative value.


Anyway, it's a small point - it just annoys me to see (clueless) druids crying about how horrible it is they need to touch resilience for crit immunity.

Windcape
17-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Druids would get more (mitigation/avoidance wise) from becoming crit immune via resilience then putting any additional item points into dodge, agility or armor than they would from the same crit immunity value of defense.
How so?

Defense = Dodge & Crit-Immunity
Resilience = Crit-Immunity

The 'reduced damage from critical strikes' are quite useless if you are crit immune.
And PvE gear contains far more agility (and thus more dodge) than PvP gear.
(Lesser in S3, the difference from Tier4 to S1 is massive)

Plus anything but Season3 is really not worth putting your hands on for feral tanking, if you can get the PvE versions.

You need 75 defense (3%) for becomming crit-immune as druid.
You need 118.2 resilience (3%) for becomming crit-immune as druid.

You really sure resilience is LESS of the item budget? oO

My main is a warrior in full t6 who has tanked all the content currently in game, thanks, but I'm aware.
Allow me to correct myself then, read more up about druid tanking :p
We're under the precise same system as your warrior, and the paladin tanks are.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 04:02 PM
Because resilience is pure crit immunity, defence gives you crit immunity, dodge and miss.
But the ammount of resilience needed to get crit immune is alot less than the ammount of defence needed.
(not exact figures here:)

say 70 ilvl worth of resilience to get crit immune
say 100 ilvl worth of defence to get crit immune

30ilvl of dodge/agi added to the 70ilvl of resilince will give more avoidance than teh 100 ilvl defence.


numbers pulled from my arse, but the theory holds true

Arthran
17-03-2008, 04:03 PM
now enough about tanking, back to the arena bashing!

Scouserlol
17-03-2008, 04:04 PM
OT: Well, I had no idea there was so much arena hate out there! I personally think it's the best thing that ever hit the game and I played pre-TBC. How did it destroy the game exactly?

Valoran
17-03-2008, 04:05 PM
How so?

Defense = Dodge & Crit-Immunity
Resilience = Crit-Immunity

The 'reduced damage from critical strikes' are quite useless if you are crit immune.
One point of defense gives .04 miss, dodge, parry and block. This is the system everyone uses - however some classes cannot parry or block, such as druids and thus these stats are wasted on them.

It's like buying a cake with two different flavours. Half of the cake is chocolate, the other half is strawberry. You want a chocolate cake, but end up having to throw out yucky strawberry half. You might aswell go and buy the cake that has more chocolate in it, since you're shopping for a chocolate cake anyway.


Basically what arthran said. But he didn't mention cake.

Windcape
17-03-2008, 04:07 PM
You still missed my numbers :p I can't see why I would want to spend more points on gaining less.

That said, keeping PvP (resilience) seperate from PvE (defense) for ALL tanking classes would be optimal. Resilience is a emergency stat you'll use along with resistance-gear, such as when tanking Illidan's flames, or Hydross's adds.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 04:13 PM
after speaking to old windy on msn and checking wowwiki i have been proved INCORECT!

ahh BUT! its all in the ilvl.
Resilience is worth 1, defence is worth 1.20
so 75 defence = 90ilvl
and 118.2 resilience = 118.2ilvl

hmm....

after further theorycrafting it has been proved that the information i have been given is FALSE!

Defence is still better for baers based on the ilvl alone, let along the added miss and dodge

Valoran
17-03-2008, 04:14 PM
Sorry, I missed your edit.

You need 75 defense (3%) for becomming crit-immune as druid.
You need 118.2 resilience (3%) for becomming crit-immune as druid.

You really sure resilience is LESS of the item budget? oO
Yes.

Defense has a 1.2 value modifier, while resilience is 1.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Level_(Item)

That said, keeping PvP (resilience) seperate from PvE (defense) for ALL tanking classes would be optimal. Resilience is a emergency stat you'll use along with resistance-gear, such as when tanking Illidan's flames, or Hydross's adds.Why would it be optimal?

Valoran
17-03-2008, 04:15 PM
after speaking to old windy on msn and checking wowwiki i have been proved INCORECT!

ahh BUT! its all in the ilvl.
Resilience is worth 1, defence is worth 1.20
so 75 defence = 90ilvl
and 118.2 resilience = 118.2ilvl

hmm....

after further theorycrafting it has been proved that the information i have been given is FALSE!

Defence is still better for baers based on the ilvl alone, let along the added miss and dodge
It's not that simple. The numbers you gave assume that defense (or resilience) are the only stats on the item. :p

Windcape
17-03-2008, 04:20 PM
Seeing that druids also get a insane amount of attack power and crit ? :-)

Would be rather unfair if feral-druids as the only class would get superiour PvP gear from PvE raiding.

Here's a classical druid gear setup:

Defense rating:
16 (head enchant, KoT revered)
21 (neck - Pendant of Titans)
10 (shouder enchant, Aldor Exalted)
20 (ring , A'dal's Signet of Defense)
19 (ring, Violet Signet of the Great Protector)
= 86

You see, alot is missing :( since a total of 153.4 rating is required. And that is the BEST gear in the game for a druid.
Guess I have to ninja the ring from Supremus next time.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 04:21 PM
yes and no, its just compairing the ammount of stat needed accross the board, ofc in a real world situation its not applicable due to item balance, but the theory still holds true, if say for instance you was choosing between resi and def gems/enchants

Scouserlol
17-03-2008, 04:23 PM
I still prefer the chocolate cake from page 1 :)

Seriously though... less PVE number crunching please! Get your own thread tank gimps :(

Windcape
17-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Ok :p but don't say I don't know my class !-) It makes the kitten angry.
I miscalculated a few players, but meh.. ingame it's easier to see the precise values.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 04:31 PM
my maths was right! resilience is better! pvp sucks and tanks rule.

wait what?

Windcape
17-03-2008, 04:38 PM
Lets nerf Taurens +5% health, it's to OP in PvP.

Special Tauren druids (damn you Tun :p)

Valoran
17-03-2008, 04:50 PM
I still prefer the chocolate cake from page 1 :)

Seriously though... less PVE number crunching please! Get your own thread tank gimps :(
The whole racial discussion has been done to death, there's nothing new to add.

Summary is basically - they're not fair.
If balance is the aim of the game, they need to be removed. The other side of the discussion is that they add to variety and have a positive impact with regards to keeping things interesting. Both are valid points - there is however an impasse since both aspects are represented in the wow player base.

Saha
17-03-2008, 04:51 PM
Here's a classical druid gear setup:

Defense rating:
16 (head enchant, KoT revered)
21 (neck - Pendant of Titans)
10 (shouder enchant, Aldor Exalted)
20 (ring , A'dal's Signet of Defense)
19 (ring, Violet Signet of the Great Protector)
= 86

You see, alot is missing :( since a total of 153.4 rating is required. And that is the BEST gear in the game for a druid.
Guess I have to ninja the ring from Supremus next time.

Add these:
Slikk's cloak(badgers)- 16
Shadowmoon Insignia- 36
Bracer enchant- 12

You end up with 415 defense, exactly amount you need.

Edit: ohh, I am scryer, so shoulder chant is 15.

Tsarina
17-03-2008, 05:00 PM
The whole racial discussion has been done to death, there's nothing new to add.

Summary is basically - they're not fair.

I agree, they are not fair. That will teach people for doing silly things on character creation. If you roll dwarf warrior because you for some reason like looking ugly, you deserve lagging behind in PvE DPS and PvP versatility. It's not supposed to pay off not looking into your choices.

Windcape
17-03-2008, 05:06 PM
Add these:
Slikk's cloak(badgers)- 16
Shadowmoon Insignia- 36
Bracer enchant- 12

You end up with 415 defense, exactly amount you need.

Edit: ohh, I am scryer, so shoulder chant is 15.
Yup, Currently using the trinket from Hydross, but replacing it with Shadowmoon Insignia when I get the chance.

I would prefer using Pepe's cloak from Hyjal trash if it ever drops, (using Slikk's atm.), annoys me it lacks defense :(
So the question is what to use, enchants or resilience.
It's just silly we have to relay on so specific items, or do PvP.

But SMI and Commendation of Kael'thas = godlike combo.. can't wait for MTR :D

Rey
17-03-2008, 05:10 PM
Racials and gear is the random factor in games. Something you just HAVE to live with. Otherwise games would be EXCACTLY the same based on team setups, and nobody would play anything but the best possible team (read: warrior/r-druid).

Wha?! wait, you mean not everyone plays war+drood?!
Than that 9 war+drood teams out of 10 were a pure coincidence?! cant be!!

Tsarina
17-03-2008, 05:11 PM
It's just silly we have to relay on so specific items, or do PvP.

That's just lazy whining. Melee DPS do as well. Unless you have Warglaives, you need to do PvP for weapons.

Chonar
17-03-2008, 05:14 PM
if WoW is ever to be an 'e-sport'


Oh god I hope it never will be. :(

Vegelus
17-03-2008, 05:14 PM
I agree, they are not fair. That will teach people for doing silly things on character creation. If you roll dwarf warrior because you for some reason like looking ugly, you deserve lagging behind in PvE DPS and PvP versatility. It's not supposed to pay off not looking into your choices.
Ugly?
I'll cut You with my axes and then slam You with my shield. Then You will start thinking before speaking something about us, green shite, hmmpf.

Nothing looks better than me facing that big thingy and slamming it through it's face. Without helms, who needs them.
Give me my beer.

Windcape
17-03-2008, 05:19 PM
That's just lazy whining. Melee DPS do as well. Unless you have Warglaives, you need to do PvP for weapons.
Hmm?

SSC: Fang of Vashj ,Talon of Azshara
TK: Talon of the Phoenix / Talon of the Phoenix
BT: Swiftsteel Bludgeon,Blade of Savagery,Messenger of Fate
ZA: Akil'zon's Talonblade,Fury,Rage,Heartless,Umbral Shiv

Alot of options besides warglaives ? versus ZERO leather pieces with defense on.

Tsarina
17-03-2008, 05:21 PM
No, those are not options. I can list thousands of weapons starting from Death Knell and up. That's not what I'm talking about.

Arthran
17-03-2008, 05:24 PM
pvp weapons = higher dps, meaning that the pve weapons arent options?

Chonar
17-03-2008, 05:25 PM
If you roll Horde non-belf if for some reason you like looking ugly...

Oh sorry that wasnt what I was gonna post.
ON THE TOPIC OF ARENA:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9308/wowcomicde8.jpg

Tsarina
17-03-2008, 05:26 PM
If you roll Horde non-belf if for some reason you like looking ugly...

I expected better :(

Chonar
17-03-2008, 05:29 PM
I expected better :(

You insulted my prettiness AND made me stoop to your level in retalliation! That's two strikes for you in one thread. }:[

Now back to the topic of Arenas:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9308/wowcomicde8.jpg

Windcape
17-03-2008, 05:30 PM
pvp weapons = higher dps, meaning that the pve weapons arent options?S3 versus BT weapons. The BT weapons still provide better raid dps.

Only problem is the majority of the weapons I listed is daggers/maces/fists, and swords is the best spec atm. But you can still do very high damage as daggers, so there is really no need to farm arena for the last 5 dps.

Saha
17-03-2008, 05:32 PM
S3 versus BT weapons. The BT weapons still provide better raid dps.

Only problem is the majority of the weapons I listed is daggers/maces/fists, and swords is the best spec atm. But you can still do very high damage as daggers, so there is really no need to farm arena for the last 5 dps.

Lilska with daggers...
I'd pay for such a view.

Windcape
17-03-2008, 05:36 PM
Lilska with daggers...
I'd pay for such a view.
Hey! I was talking rogues :p

And liek.. get a mace! Nobody use 2h axes for pvp anymore, you need skillherald to play.

Alverion
17-03-2008, 05:36 PM
S3 versus BT weapons. The BT weapons still provide better raid dps.

What?

Saha
17-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Hey! I was talking rogues :p

And liek.. get a mace! Nobody use 2h axes for pvp anymore, you need skillherald to play.

Giving this 5 mins max to get burned to earth by certain person.

Windcape
17-03-2008, 05:38 PM
What?Not S3 swords versus SSC swords!
Giving this 5 mins max to get burned to earth by certain person.
I hope the certain person could smell the sarkasm.
I saw the High Warlord title as well ;-) I'm pretty sure Lilska know how to play.

Tsarina
17-03-2008, 05:39 PM
S3 versus BT weapons. The BT weapons still provide better raid dps.

No, they do not. Why would you even say that?

Cheiftan
17-03-2008, 05:41 PM
he doesn't know any better?

Windcape
17-03-2008, 05:42 PM
No, they do not. Why would you even say that?
Because when a entire realm's alliance rogues tell me so, and use the said weapons, I tend to belive them.

The most of the PvE weapons I see contains alot more hit rating than the PvP ones. Where PvP is more crit, orientated towards burst rather than high white damage.

Which would seem logical... or I just managed to play with alot of incompetent fools.

Flawless
17-03-2008, 05:48 PM
You are banned from MMOchampion forums btw?

Alverion
17-03-2008, 05:49 PM
Because when a entire realm's alliance rogues tell me so, and use the said weapons, I tend to belive them.

The most of the PvE weapons I see contains alot more hit rating than the PvP ones. Where PvP is more crit, orientated towards burst rather than high white damage.

Which would seem logical... or I just managed to play with alot of incompetent fools.

Here, I'll help you out.

Blade of Savagery
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Sword
98 - 183 Damage Speed 1.40
(100.4 damage per second)
+19 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 15 (0.95% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 22 (1% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 44.

Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Sword
108 - 201 Damage Speed 1.50
(103.0 damage per second)
+30 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires personal arena rating of 1850
Equip: Improves hit rating by 8 (0.51% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 21 (0.95% @ L70).
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12 (0.3% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 34.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 49 of your opponent's armor.

So, by using the Slicer over Savagery you lose 7 hit, 1 crit, 10AP but you gain 2.6 weapon dps, 11 stam, 12 resilience and 49 armpen.

Please explain to me how this sword is worse?

Flawless
17-03-2008, 05:51 PM
Not to mention the first one is faster!

Tsarina
17-03-2008, 05:53 PM
That's a good thing for rogue OH, though :p
But bad for warriors. And horrible for shamans. Which is why I said "melee" DPS, not rogue DPS.

Flawless
17-03-2008, 05:55 PM
Yeah, I know, I thought we're talking from a rogue POV atm ~.o

Slicer
17-03-2008, 05:58 PM
Here, I'll help you out.

Blade of Savagery
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Sword
98 - 183 Damage Speed 1.40
(100.4 damage per second)
+19 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 15 (0.95% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 22 (1% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 44.

Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Sword
108 - 201 Damage Speed 1.50
(103.0 damage per second)
+30 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires personal arena rating of 1850
Equip: Improves hit rating by 8 (0.51% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 21 (0.95% @ L70).
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12 (0.3% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 34.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 49 of your opponent's armor.

So, by using the Slicer over Savagery you lose 7 hit, 1 crit, 10AP but you gain 2.6 weapon dps, 11 stam, 12 resilience and 49 armpen.

Please explain to me how this sword is worse?

Actually savagery beats quickblade on speed alone. For a rogue a rough estimate would be every 0.1 speed = 10 DPS through combat potency. The main hand though beats every other PvE weapon apart from the warglaives. The ideal weapon setup if you lack warglaives being S3 MH / Savagery OH.

Valoran
17-03-2008, 06:00 PM
Alv picked the worst example, because in that case (and pretty much only that case) the pve weapon is better. :p

Alverion
17-03-2008, 06:07 PM
Okay, I'll concede that. Generally speaking though, until the weapon drops you cannot beat outside of PvP weapons. Afaik the only other situation this occurs with is the Talon vs Merciless?

Alverion
17-03-2008, 06:09 PM
Alv picked the worst example, because in that case (and pretty much only that case) the pve weapon is better. :p

Well, I pretty much just picked the only sword Windcape listed, though I sincerely doubt based on posting history that s/he would've been able to defend against.

If taken in context of his post earlier Windcape is still grossly incorrect that pvp weapons somehow decrease raid dps >.>

Windcape
17-03-2008, 06:20 PM
You are banned from MMOchampion forums btw?
No, I'm oblivated ! (Deleted user, posts and banned all my ip's).

Corruption
17-03-2008, 06:28 PM
You must have spoke as much shit on there as you are doing here then.

Slicer
17-03-2008, 06:51 PM
I'm now intrigued at just how hypocritical someone can be when they've changed realms 4 times in the past year, 5 times in total. Looking at your past guilds, none of them have yet killed Illidan, some appear to have disbanded and yet you try to flame and rant about casuals?

You yourself look casual, in the general sense of the word by having not killed Illidan. Looking at past history though, we won't have to live with you long, you seem to change realm as soon as the transfer time is complete anyway.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/search.php?serverid=-1&region=-1&raceid=-1&classid=-1&minlevel=10&maxlevel=70&search=windcape&Submit1=SEARCH

Warlee
17-03-2008, 08:07 PM
Casual doesn't go only for a pve term !

No, I just managed to rant about casuals , and their admins are casuals (Bourb is still sucking Lurker/Voidreaver)
Whats wrong anyway in being casual ? ;p

Kanzei
17-03-2008, 08:43 PM
You must have spoke as much shit on there as you are doing here then.

My hero.

Kathra
18-03-2008, 03:00 AM
Back ontopic.

Racials are an issue for me, I don't really think it's gamebreaking overall, but certainly given the % chances, one racial can turn the tide of a game.

For example, PvPing on my rogue. Against an orc shaman the stun resist giving him a "Get out of kidney shot free" card, could be the difference between that last LHW landing or not. Usually though, I don't notice a difference, currently our alt 3v3 team is hanging around 1620ish rating, and I can usually avoid the horrors of perception, and find that my WOTF pretty much evenly matches the opposing EA or Stoneform.

HOWEVER, it's a different game at higher rating. On my druid (running rogue/warrior/druid) the last thing I want to see is a mirror matchup with a perception rogue (easily getting an early sap on my rogue) or perception warrior charging in and mauling my face before i've even had a chance to whack a HoT on. It also becomes incredibly annoying when my big tauren ass is trying to carefully hide and drink, and the opposing druid has the luxury of a few extra seconds before he's hit out of stealth.

I think it's a delicate issue though, a factor that has been present (although altered) in the game since day one, and I do agree that removing racials in arena may be a negative hit on the already fading diversity in this game.

tl;dr - Racials don't guarentee an advantage, but they can easily be gamebreaking.

Bleetman
18-03-2008, 03:08 AM
It also becomes incredibly annoying when my big tauren ass is trying to carefully hide and drink
Good.

Flawless
18-03-2008, 03:09 AM
Game breaking? Nah, I think that term is thrown around too much. Basically what your saying racials create an imbalance in arena's at high ratings where it should all be based on skill and not if they're going to be running a dwarf warrior rather than a human warrior (for instance), Right?

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (3 members and 0 guests)

Spieluhr, Bleetman, Valoran

Hello fellow no lifers \o

Bleetman
18-03-2008, 03:10 AM
Hey, AV queues are meant for reading forums.

Hoshingen
18-03-2008, 11:00 AM
lol AV queues.

Warlee
18-03-2008, 10:59 PM
AV has any queue waiting time ? ^^

Bleetman
19-03-2008, 02:14 AM
Yes, very good. You play horde, and they don't have que times. It's all very impressive.

Tsarina
19-03-2008, 02:48 AM
They do now. In WSG/AB/EotS. 2-3 mins. And you can probably guess why. AV is instant as always.

Stim
24-03-2008, 09:08 AM
It varies tbh. You still can get instaqueues during most of time :P

Chonar
24-03-2008, 11:03 AM
EotS queues on Alliance side are nearly instant. I can guess why as well. :V