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Stim
04-03-2008, 10:08 AM
Shaman:

<...>
Toughness will now also reduce the duration of movement impairing effects on you by 10/20/30/40/50%.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4316/111xn8.jpg

Chonar
04-03-2008, 01:37 PM
Dont forget *improved* hamstring is taking dimishing returns now!
So even LUCK wont save you now... oohoooOoooOOOooo..

Evilstein
04-03-2008, 01:41 PM
I'm sure Blizzard will give Warriors a 40% increased run speed to compensate.

Gwynin
04-03-2008, 01:57 PM
Atleast we get to play with weapons like this one below.
But yea so far this patch is turning out to be one of the worst warriors patches ever, and this time not even due to warrior specific nerfs but silly buffs to other classes.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/february/brutalgladiatorgreatsword.jpg

TroldePus
04-03-2008, 02:23 PM
Meh stop QQ they "debuffed" us already:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/ishamans.gif Shaman

Flametongue debuff now removes 25% of healing efficiency on the target for 5 seconds and stack up to two times. The duration remains 5 seconds.25% instead of 50% ( but its practically still 50% as we will all get insanely fast offhands ;))

Chonar
04-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Meh stop QQ they "debuffed" us already:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/ishamans.gif Shaman

Flametongue debuff now removes 25% of healing efficiency on the target for 5 seconds and stack up to two times. The duration remains 5 seconds.25% instead of 50% ( but its practically still 50% as we will all get insanely fast offhands ;))

You shouldnt have anything Mortal Strikish WHATSOEVER IN THE FIRST PLACE
AND NEITHER SHOULD HUNTERS
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA A













:)

Kathra
04-03-2008, 03:32 PM
Dont forget *improved* hamstring is taking dimishing returns now!
So even LUCK wont save you now... oohoooOoooOOOooo..

I'm sorry what?

Imp hamstring is insane in pvp. With a two melee team repeat procs can completely fuck up our tactic in 3v3.

It needed DR badly.

Robinvi
04-03-2008, 03:41 PM
Druids needs nerfs badly.

Chonar
04-03-2008, 03:55 PM
I'm sorry what?

Imp hamstring is insane in pvp. With a two melee team repeat procs can completely fuck up our tactic in 3v3.

It needed DR badly.


Completely fuck up your tactic? OHNOES. We wouldnt want warriors actually making a change, would we?! No, warriors should be walking targets for the same tactics used every fucking time, again and again, without fail, and they should be completely unable to beat it unless they get a lucky resist! FFFFFFffffff.

Slicer
04-03-2008, 04:01 PM
Chonar, you don't even do arenas. You've complained time and time again about resilience messing up everything, yet you've never been on the receiving end of most of this stuff. In this area you don't have a right to complain, at present rate warriors are fine, hell, they even deserve the nerfs currently coming with this patch. Note, these nerfs only affect PvP of which I hardly ever see you do normally, let alone in arenas where this actually makes a difference.

Muh
04-03-2008, 04:20 PM
Meh stop QQ they "debuffed" us already:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/ishamans.gif Shaman
Flametongue debuff now removes 25% of healing efficiency on the target for 5 seconds and stack up to two times. The duration remains 5 seconds.25% instead of 50% ( but its practically still 50% as we will all get insanely fast offhands ;))

So this is the part where I'm happy I bought s1 OH, before the 2 ranks nerf, after all?

Chonar
04-03-2008, 04:24 PM
Chonar, you don't even do arenas.

You know I've tried finding enjoyment in them. You *should* know I've been in multiple arena teams just to experience the entire thing numerous times. But you're right, I don't play them anymore. My complaints should give a good indication why.

Slicer
04-03-2008, 04:31 PM
Yet they don't give a good indication why. Just because it's no longer the land of being able to 2-shot 90% of people doesn't mean warriors are instantly dire. They've had the highest representation of all classes in all brackets for every season so far. Your main gripe seems to be that you don't want to spend time getting resilience gear from actually doing PvP to be viable in arenas.

Warriors are perfectly fine in arenas. They are by no means walking targets.

I'm not going to turn this into a rogues vs. warriors and who has what better, but the shaman change affects more than just warriors. We already had our snare dispellable by 3 classes, this is just adding to it. I'm not complaining because realistically it's still only one class and one spec of that one class. It's not like the majority of players you're ever going to meet suddenly gained a 50% snare reduction time.

Harr
05-03-2008, 01:43 AM
Come on now... its only the improved proc in hamstring that is in DR... that tougness 5/5 talent is a joke.. just reaply the spamstring and won't get away even with (instant) ghostwolf. Note that ghostwolf doesn't remove snares like druid shapeshifting does. (And don't get weapon imbue procs while in ghostwolf).

Besides enhancement shamans are still way squishier with a shield than warriors because our base stats (hp) are ridiculiously low for a mail wearing class compared to plate warriors have.

Stim
05-03-2008, 06:41 AM
Reapply what Harr? Calculate the time I have to do something else besides reappplying Hamstring on shaman with 5/5 Toughness. 5 seconds.... FIVE!!! 1.5 is GCD... that's THREE POINT FIVE SECONDS TO ACTUALLY DO PVP.

Kathra
05-03-2008, 07:16 AM
Completely fuck up your tactic? OHNOES. We wouldnt want warriors actually making a change, would we?! No, warriors should be walking targets for the same tactics used every fucking time, again and again, without fail, and they should be completely unable to beat it unless they get a lucky resist! FFFFFFffffff.

Guess what the funny thing about my point was.

I PLAY WITH A WARRIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm saying the SKILL imp hamstring fucks up tactics because it unfairly disables melee, adding DR is a perfectly balanced change, and a simple alteration that any warrior with half a fucking brain won't really be bothered by.

Chou
05-03-2008, 08:27 AM
shamans had troubles getting away from fight compared to others healers, they needed something to remove the imbalance of being shaman healer in 2v2. but this is o'lol, didnt think they would do such a CHANGE ! i wonder how that will work, earth-shielded shaman kitting you aorund pillars, amg !oneone

Slicer
05-03-2008, 08:57 AM
Reapply what Harr? Calculate the time I have to do something else besides reappplying Hamstring on shaman with 5/5 Toughness. 5 seconds.... FIVE!!! 1.5 is GCD... that's THREE POINT FIVE SECONDS TO ACTUALLY DO PVP.

Then lucky for you that you're not a rogue. Ever tried staying on a target that has a druid spamming abolish poison on it? 1 stack of poison removed on cast with another stack every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. The possibility of removing our entire -healing debuff, or losing range on the target completely. Welcome to our world, I'd swap places any day for an undispellable slow effect.

Stim
05-03-2008, 09:00 AM
The most funny things is that Toughness doesn't affect immobilising stuff. So, basically, classes who faceraped your movement will still do the same (mages, druids) while classes who are subject to kiting (warrior, rogue) are so fucked up!

Harr
05-03-2008, 07:23 PM
Tougness is still tier 4 talent and need to waste 5/5 points in it.. thats a shitloads of talent points to waste for resto shamans. (On PTR I had to sacrifice 6% hit while dualwield when took it there).

Chou
06-03-2008, 08:04 AM
yeah but they just adding a spot in the healing tree for it, or they doing same shit they did with mages and ice block ?

and no, 5 points isnt that much !

Slicer
06-03-2008, 09:00 AM
Five points is a lot when it's five points in a talent you wouldn't usually take.

Chonar
06-03-2008, 09:11 AM
Looks like that -healing debuff on flametongue is removed again. Warriors' viability skyrockets once again!

Gwynin
06-03-2008, 04:17 PM
\o/ yay \o/

Valoran
06-03-2008, 05:42 PM
Looks like that -healing debuff on flametongue is removed again. Warriors' viability skyrockets once again!
Warrior viability wasn't in question with this change.

Really.

Chou
07-03-2008, 08:36 AM
was about how warriors will have troubles running after shamans >.>

now it will be hell to win duels vs them, and it was already hard :(

Valoran
07-03-2008, 08:46 AM
I haven't really found shaman to be that difficult. Might just be me.

Try getting your shield out in battle stance and keeping the pressure up with that (i.e. hamstring/ms/sunder). Throw out the odd spell reflect around the same time their shock cooldown comes up (mods like necb and antagonist can track this) to really keep them off balance.

I'm surprised I don't see many warriors using turtle esc tactics more in duels/battlegrounds/2s/3s. It's really surprising how effective taking less damage can be to your survival.

Chou
07-03-2008, 08:57 AM
in 3v3 when there is lock mage rogue combo you can be sure that i got my shield out lol

Stim
07-03-2008, 09:11 AM
Can't really see myself defeating any shaman with any turtiling tactics... They can heal at any given moment unless I stop it while power of all inturrupts combined is not enough to compensate for silly damage with shield and major part of the damage is magic (even for enh shaman). SR once in every 10 seconds is not going to make shaman die. This tactics is more like surviving until reinforcements come but usually reinforcements are hostile... Just press it hard, spellrelfect some heavy cast and pray for crits/macestun/whatever.

Chonar
07-03-2008, 09:46 AM
Interrupting a heal on a class like the shaman should disable their god damn heals for the next 6 bloody hours.

Chou
11-03-2008, 08:23 AM
dont make us appear like whiners !

worriorz r gr8 !

seriously, i think the guys taking care of the class balance should actually play the classes. or if they do, they should pay good players to teach them

Senister
13-03-2008, 08:41 AM
They say that warriors have been nerfed since release... I don't even dare think how overpowered they were back then. They gib things now, what did they do back then?

Stim
13-03-2008, 09:21 AM
2-3 shotting multiple opponents might give a slight clue. Watch some old movies when Arcanite Reaper MS crit removed up to 40% of enemy hp.

Chou
13-03-2008, 12:14 PM
when there wasnt any resi and when the ol' warriors were equipped nicely, they could pewpew whatever they targetted. and imagine, at that time, enrage and deathwish stacked

Senister
13-03-2008, 12:45 PM
I know how warriors where back then... It was kind of an attempt to provoke a reaction from warriors feeling treated unfair.

Stim
14-03-2008, 11:12 AM
What reaction? Nothing is left but a bitter taste of glory long gone. I remember superior geared rogues retreating from me because of a single Kidney Shot resist (hallo mr Orc) or tearing frost mage apart with triple crit when you finally reached the cursed git with 3% hp left. Now it's all dust thanks to monstrous stamina buffing for everyone. Now I find my warrior kind of gimped rogue in arena.
No stealth, No CC, No damage, Ultimate Destination :S


There is still some of it left in lower level pvp however, though twinks spoil all the fun.

Chonar
14-03-2008, 12:49 PM
What reaction? Nothing is left but a bitter taste of glory long gone.

I'm still trying to wash away the taste with gratuitous amounts of beer.

Slicer
14-03-2008, 04:56 PM
Now I find my warrior kind of gimped rogue in arena.
No stealth, No CC, No damage, Ultimate Destination :S

That comment deserves a giant L2P. Seriously, warriors have no damage? Where have you been for the last six months? Compare a rogue's damage to that of a warrior's, please, do.

Alverion
14-03-2008, 06:49 PM
Also it's Final Destination, get it right!

Chou
17-03-2008, 08:32 PM
slicy, maybe the dps is higher, but the dps time is FAR below in arenas ^^

ha well yes, we have plate and def stance. so what?

Chonar
17-03-2008, 10:00 PM
Def stance indeed.

With resilience being so common, and with zerkstance adding +crit and only increasing damage taken, the only reason you'd be zerkering is fearbreaking and intercepting. :/

Valoran
17-03-2008, 10:15 PM
Nope, you're still in zerker the majority of the time.

Chonar
18-03-2008, 12:51 PM
Nope, you're still in zerker the majority of the time.

you'd

Every day, I marvel at the immense need and desire people on the internet feel to try and say someone else is wrong.

Taurusos
18-03-2008, 01:36 PM
Valoran, I wouldnt take that from Chonar if I was you.

Chonar, I wouldnt take that from Valoran if I was you.

/Tau

Valoran
18-03-2008, 01:49 PM
Every day, I marvel at the immense need and desire people on the internet feel to try and say someone else is wrong.
Given the amount of pvp you have done in TBC, I really don't understand why you keep having to naysay it. You're really in no position at all to profess anything about the warrior class in pvp, yet you come out with these little comments all so often. Like the one above about zerker stance not being the stance pvping warriors find themselves in 80% of the time.

This confuses me. Stop it.

Chonar
18-03-2008, 02:03 PM
Given the amount of pvp you have done in TBC, I really don't understand why you keep having to naysay it. You're really in no position at all to profess anything about the warrior class in pvp, yet you come out with these little comments all so often. Like the one above about zerker stance not being the stance pvping warriors find themselves in 80% of the time.

This confuses me. Stop it.

What it was, was pretty much a comment about how resilience had also lowered some of the stance's positive aspects. Not even a talent, but a big aspect of one single class.

And I have every right, since I enjoy PVP less. In pre-TBC, I only got annoyed by warlocks having more health than a warrior. But nowadays...

Valoran
18-03-2008, 02:15 PM
What it was, was pretty much a comment about how resilience had also lowered some of the stance's positive aspects.
It was a statement in which you gave the impression that zerker stance had its usefulness limited to intercept and zerker rage - which is far from the truth.
Not even a talent, but a big aspect of one single class.Zerker stance has the same trade-off now as it did at 60. or 40. Increased damage output for increased damage input. Resilience offers a FLAT modifier for crit reduction, if anything the value of the 3% crit from zerker stance is actually higher in a heavy resilience environment. Downplaying zerker stance just shows your lack of experience in the matter.

And I have every right, since I enjoy PVP less. In pre-TBC, I only got annoyed by warlocks having more health than a warrior. But nowadays...You have every right. But comments like that are uncalled for, zerker stance is still awesome and you will still use it in pvp situations and for a lot more than *just* breaking fears or intercepting.

Chonar
18-03-2008, 02:22 PM
Zerker stance has the same trade-off now as it did at 60. or 40. Increased damage output for increased damage input. Resilience offers a FLAT modifier for crit reduction, if anything the value of the 3% crit from zerker stance is actually higher in a heavy resilience environment. Downplaying zerker stance just shows your lack of experience in the matter.


And your experience playing a PVP warrior must be so much more than mi- oh.
Right.

Elitist Jerks threads.


Edit: Actually, if there -is- an EJ thread on this particular subject I'd like to see it. I've started wondering now.

Kinshara
18-03-2008, 02:26 PM
slicy, maybe the dps is higher, but the dps time is FAR below in arenas ^^

ha well yes, we have plate and def stance. so what?

You also have intercept available every 15 seconds with a good pvp build.

A rogue has the advantage at the start of a match, since they'll have all their cooldowns ready; as they use them, they lose that advantage in mobility -- and a warrior may even be better during parts of the match.

One of the major advantages for a warrior, though, is that switching targets has pretty much zero cost; if one target gets away from you and you won't be able to catch them again for a while, you can just mash someone else's face instead(assuming they aren't being CC'd). A rogue has to drop their current CPs for that, which isn't always a good idea.

Both classes are in good shape for arenas overall though; rogue representation in 5s isn't too great but the ones that are present are doing well. We'll see how much of that was due to the cheat death bug after 2.4 is released I guess.

Valoran
18-03-2008, 02:31 PM
And your experience playing a PVP warrior must be so much more than mi- oh.
Right.Yup, it is. Not that that's especially hard to do, you have very little experience in TBC PVP, so stop pretending you're the fountain of knowledge when it comes to spouting off little gems with how broken pvp is.

And there is a warrior pvp thread on EJ, I can't say I've actually read it though. As much as that spoils your retort.

Theory
18-03-2008, 02:37 PM
Valoran, I wouldnt take that from Chonar if I was you.

Chonar, I wouldnt take that from Valoran if I was you.

/Tau

lol

Chonar
18-03-2008, 02:52 PM
Yup, it is. Not that that's especially hard to do, you have very little experience in TBC PVP

Enough to have formed an opinion.

, so stop pretending you're the fountain of knowledge when it comes to spouting off little gems with how broken pvp is.

Funny, I can't remember actually doing that.

And there is a warrior pvp thread on EJ, I can't say I've actually read it though. As much as that spoils your retort.

Nono, I actually meant a thread on the value of 3% zerkstance crit-chance in regards to a high resilience environment. Excel documents and everything.

Also no, that's fine. You're the one swinging your witty rapier. I'm just sitting here at the side, eating my chips. Watching you.

Flawless
18-03-2008, 02:58 PM
It still gives you more crit no? I mean its similar to saying, whats the point of 5/5 crit with all the resilience.

Valoran
18-03-2008, 03:03 PM
Funny, I can't remember actually doing that.
See page one in this thread, crying about stuff you have no experience of, yet have "formed an opinion" on.
Nono, I actually meant a thread on the value of 3% zerkstance crit-chance in regards to a high resilience environment. Excel documents and everything.
The maths is there if you want to do it. However it doesn't take a maths wizz to figure out that 3% crit is more than 0% crit.

Chonar
18-03-2008, 03:17 PM
See page one in this thread, crying about stuff you have no experience of, yet have "formed an opinion" on.

I have no experience at WSG? 'Cause both normal hamstring's duration VS shammies and improved harmstrings taking dimturns is pretty fucking annoying for warriors trying to be as useful as they can be in Wa...

Oh.

Oh sorry. PVP is all Arenas nowadays.

Silly me, living in the past.

The maths is there if you want to do it. However it doesn't take a maths wizz to figure out that 3% crit is more than 0% crit.

Gee wizz Vallyran!

Flawless
18-03-2008, 03:32 PM
This is entertaining.

Stim
19-03-2008, 10:03 AM
I use Berserker Stance because I HAVE TO, I need skills bound to it, not because of kinkywinky 3% crit. I was focused 2 days ago in arena in 3v3. I met it in zerk stance and got stunned and nuked... I had to blow trinket to go def stance to live through that magic nuke bullcrap but that wasn't enough already so I also had to blow Battlemaster's trinket, good thing I dind't pop Deathwish. Yay, zerker stance? Noone would ever want increased damage to them. Warrior has it. At least don't make it look so ausum and kewl Valoran.

Slicer
19-03-2008, 10:58 AM
I like your spec.

Flawless
19-03-2008, 11:07 AM
Since when was 10% damage ever going to save your ass significantly?


I can understand it when you throw death wish into the equation.

kinkywinky 3% crit. Ok, seeing crit is clearly shit to you. Why have you gemmed for it? Seeing 3% crit is SO crap, and you clearly need to be in zerker all the time for all them skills that need to be activated at a moments notice without prior warning. I mean, you need to be in zerker all the time, don't talk shit.

Platypus
19-03-2008, 11:11 AM
Changing from zerker stance to def stance is actually a 20% difference

Flawless
19-03-2008, 11:16 AM
I know, changing from zerker to def stance while getting nuked is an amazing feet to achieve, however. Stim says he needs zerker stance all the time, because of the skills. My point is, is the 10% difference really going to make his survivability THAT much better? No. Not to mention, why can't he play arms and go to zerker when he needs?

Über
19-03-2008, 11:27 AM
Warriors ohoy, settle all this ingame instead of throwing posts at each other.

The one who wins most fights wins this thread. Oh, and gets the title of The Ultimate Ninja Warrior.

Naturally for the rest of us all this must be frapsed so we can laugh at the one who lose.

Slicer
19-03-2008, 11:43 AM
Aside from this it might help if he had second wind or blood craze, but apparently those talents aren't worth it. Nor are imp hamstring or blood frenzy.

Chopper
19-03-2008, 11:47 AM
Über, the thinking man's Orde.

Über
19-03-2008, 11:50 AM
I see you're still pissed off about the comment I made in chatbox the other day. :P

Chopper
19-03-2008, 11:52 AM
swing/miss

Wondering why you're pouring fuel on a raging fire, actually.

Stim
19-03-2008, 11:53 AM
Slicer more comments on my PvE gear/spec plx. I find it amusing in context of PvP talk we're taking here. LOOK I HAF SORD WITH MAZE SPEKK!!1

Flawless
19-03-2008, 11:56 AM
So why you bothering to argue about survivability in PVP if you aren't even spec'd for it?

Über
19-03-2008, 11:56 AM
swing/miss

Wondering why you're pouring fuel on a raging fire, actually.

Like I already said, being oversensitive in the intarweb doesn't really pay off. It was just a joke that failed, shouldn't be that big of a deal. :;V

Stim
19-03-2008, 11:57 AM
_Engage brain...
Processing...
Complete.
Answer: Because I spec PvP to PvP?
I can logout in prot spec naked with Arcanite Reaper in hands. Talks about armory much?

Flawless
19-03-2008, 12:00 PM
Yes, I just realised ¬_¬

Anyway, heres some more brain engaging thought, beszeker stance only affects non-dot non-crit damage as the rest is reduced by resilience no?

Im assuming in your full S3 you get to the 10% on DOT reduction and crit damage.

Slicer
19-03-2008, 12:03 PM
This explains why I inspected you the other day when you had mace spec, still using a 31/30 spec and still didn't have blood craze, second wind, imp hamstring or blood frenzy. Thanks for the clarification.

Stim
19-03-2008, 12:14 PM
Berseker staance affects any type of damage except for few selected ones (SSC Boiling water and such). So if you want to stay on par with dots ticking on you you'll have to have 400 resilience (-10% dots +10% zerklol = 0 total) so a dotlock will actually have to eat through your hp pool as it is. Full s3 armor and weapon + anti CC trinket is 374. Rest are gems, enchant and 1 more trinket.
@Slicer warrior have to spec differently for each arena bracket and setup for most effect but I'm afraid that concept is too complex for you -.-

Slicer
19-03-2008, 12:20 PM
@Slicer warrior have to spec differently for each arena bracket and setup for most effect but I'm afraid that concept is too complex for you -.-

Are you serious?

Any warrior with half a clue would have second wind, it isn't an option at any time for an arena warrior, in any bracket. You're sacrificing things like 2/2 weapon mastery for an extra point in commanding presence, 5/5 2 hand spec at the loss of imp hamstring. 2/2 imp slam is just... what? Even as a raiding spec 31/30 fails because you lack blood frenzy. You complain of crap damage, yet you don't take the huge rage boost that second wind gives. You complain of getting focused and nuked, but don't have second wind or blood craze to help you survive.

Was it your intention to minimize effectiveness in arenas to give you the ability to complain about warriors, or was it just being stupid?

Stim
19-03-2008, 12:28 PM
Are you serious?

Any warrior with half a clue would have second wind, it isn't an option at any time for an arena warrior, in any bracket. You're sacrificing things like 2/2 weapon mastery for an extra point in commanding presence, 5/5 2 hand spec at the loss of imp hamstring. 2/2 imp slam is just... what? Even as a raiding spec 31/30 fails because you lack blood frenzy. You complain of crap damage, yet you don't take the huge rage boost that second wind gives. You complain of getting focused and nuked, but don't have second wind or blood craze to help you survive.

Was it your intention to minimize effectiveness in arenas to give you the ability to complain about warriors, or was it just being stupid?

I can spec Fury to suit needs of your flaming, really. Just let me get home from work and edit post in the evening. And you can also brag about MS in arena and how is Imp. Intercept is crucial etc. On a more serious note, do you really think I never specced all that nice things you mentioned? Do you?? Any warrior spec is compromise of survivability vs damage output and none of them is best everywhere. Quite simple.

Flawless
19-03-2008, 12:30 PM
Slicer more comments on my PvE gear/spec plx

warrior have to spec differently for each arena bracket

=

?

Exactly what spec(s) do you use in arena? because Im at a loss here, if your saying your current spec is for PVE but one that you where using for areana a few days ago appears to be not much different.

Stim
19-03-2008, 12:43 PM
41/20
39/22
37/21/3
35/23/3
33/25/3
33/28
31/30
Weapon spec + variants inside one spec also.

I won't go into details but this current spec wins for beating people who don't immobilise/stun/crit you a lot. (Warlock/Priest/Shaman *hint hint*). It also wins for beating damage meters in a melee friendly raid encounter.

Tsarina
19-03-2008, 03:21 PM
I'm inspecting you this very second, and sure, your 2H PvE spec is fine. But I still don't see the point of your PvP spec. As I pointed out last time I ran into you in Orgrimmar.

Stim
19-03-2008, 07:11 PM
Flurry hax! It served me quite well in team with 2 healers, I got dispell both offensive and defensive and healer with CC (druid). Why would I be bothered with anything but damage (I'm the only dps in team) :P Flurry posibilities are endless from proccing RNG at increased rate http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/941/stunlockxd9.jpg to greater spellpushbacks etc. So that was the whole point of the spec.