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Taurusos
16-02-2008, 09:19 AM
Arena/PvP gear with PvE tokens

- Armory stage of sunwell unlocked on US pve realm, you can now turn in pve tokens for Arena/PvP items.
- Tier 4 tokens for Gladiator Season 1.
- Tier 5/6 tokens for Gladiator Season 2.
- Badges of Justice (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=29434) for all PvP gear.
- Sunwell Tier 6 tokens for Vindicator Armor.

http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp2m.jpg (http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp2.jpg) http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp1m.jpg (http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp1.jpg) http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp3m.jpg (http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp3.jpg) http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp4m.jpg (http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp4.jpg) http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp5m.jpg (http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/pvp5.jpg)

/Tau

Kenny
16-02-2008, 09:32 AM
That's retarded. Fucking retarded.

Taurusos
16-02-2008, 09:36 AM
As a raider, that plays less than the so called "casuals" im all for.

:)

/Tau

Warlee
16-02-2008, 10:01 AM
That's retarded. Fucking retarded.
.

Wartauren
16-02-2008, 10:13 AM
Now they just need to make t5 buyable from arena points, and I'll be all for it.

Malakali
16-02-2008, 10:50 AM
oh oh oh, copper bars for gold next


/nod



no?

Senex
16-02-2008, 11:40 AM
The increase to the number of Tier tokens dropped by 25-man bosses suddenly makes sense.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 01:11 PM
...

Corruption
16-02-2008, 01:17 PM
Stupid shite.

Hoshingen
16-02-2008, 01:27 PM
........

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 01:32 PM
This now means that pve whores are gonna be able to get the gear quicker than pvpers can... which means new pvpers are gonna be completely fucked over when starting a new arena team, gief new mmorpg =[

Flawless
16-02-2008, 04:14 PM
is this confirmed? as this seems ultra retarded even looking back on Blizzards earlier retarded changes.

Hephaestos
16-02-2008, 06:20 PM
This now means that pve whores are gonna be able to get the gear quicker than pvpers can... which means new pvpers are gonna be completely fucked over when starting a new arena team, gief new mmorpg =[


Sure after they spent a couple of months gathering the pve pieces for the entire raid etc, they might start with handing out some pieces for pvp purpose, what an imbalance..

Warlee
16-02-2008, 06:27 PM
They are simply fucking up game. PvP and PvE are seperated things. Leave it like this or Warhammer will eat all pvpers.

Theory
16-02-2008, 06:48 PM
Now I want T5 for arena points. This is the most retarded chance I'v heard in my wowlife.
So why is there still resilience now pvers got the same (or better) gear then pvpers
While pvpers should have the advantage since don't or can't raid.
and stop the whining We raided so hard for our gearz. indeed you did you got your well equipped t5-t6 main for it,

Crap crap crap patch

Kinshara
16-02-2008, 06:50 PM
They are simply fucking up game. PvP and PvE are seperated things. Leave it like this or Warhammer will eat all pvpers.

I wasn't impressed last time I saw a WH RvR demo, so unless they've seriously improved the game since then I don't think they'll get many people.

I don't mind PvErs getting a few pieces of pvp gear; it's not the latest and greatest that the top pvpers have, but it prevents them from getting squished in 10 seconds. I also suspect it means that WotLK open beta is getting close, since they made pvp gear easier to obtain towards the end of 1.x.

Raels
16-02-2008, 06:59 PM
I really don't see why people are against this. Unless I've not understood it, you take PvE armour, get PvP Armour. For example, I'm on my Shaman, I decide I don't want to raid anymore, I don't have the time, so, I'll casual pvp instead, just change my gear over and alls ok. So, whats the reasoning most people are against this?

Kinshara
16-02-2008, 07:09 PM
I really don't see why people are against this. Unless I've not understood it, you take PvE armour, get PvP Armour. For example, I'm on my Shaman, I decide I don't want to raid anymore, I don't have the time, so, I'll casual pvp instead, just change my gear over and alls ok. So, whats the reasoning most people are against this?

You take the PvE tier tokens and exchange those for PvP S1/S2 gear; so you'll still need to keep raiding for a while.

From what I've seen, though, a raiding guild tends to gear up on tier pieces rather quickly, and ends up sharding a lot of it while still farming for non-set pieces. So with the increase in the number of tokens dropped, getting S2 for those who want to pvp while letting the dedicated PvErs take the offset stuff seems like a good idea.

Edit: It also fits in with the general theme of encouraging people to explore as much of the game as possible; doing 3-4 raids a week and farming for repairs/mats takes quite a lot of time as it is, and trying to get pvp gear on top of that sucks.

Flawless
16-02-2008, 07:10 PM
What?

ignoring the post 2 above.

It seems to me raiders are really starting to get the best of both worlds (except that whole reputation and satisfaction feeling that comes from kicking ass).

▄ber
16-02-2008, 07:16 PM
It seems to me raiders are really starting to get the best of both worlds

Hi. Remember preTBC pvp?

Flawless
16-02-2008, 07:22 PM
Yeah, PreTBC Is gone, Naxx is a distant memory visted by the few, Justicar meaning diddly squat, and Grand Marshal gear shared out like the photos of your friends mum.

Raiders in TBC raided, for raiding gear to progress. I've never heard of a raider saying, oh shizzle I just have to get them <insert gear for class here> so I can prawn some noobs in PvP, Yo.

Valoran
16-02-2008, 07:44 PM
What?

ignoring the post 2 above.

It seems to me raiders are really starting to get the best of both worlds (except that whole reputation and satisfaction feeling that comes from kicking ass).
Raiders aren't getting the "best" of both worlds at all. The only way to get the s3 arena gear remains to compete in arena matches and gain the points to buy the gear itself. All this means is that PvErs who are part of a guild which no longer needs any of their tiered drops for PvE purposes can choose to instead pick up rotting tokens and swap them in for a starter PVP set. Note that the only tokens available at the moment to trade for any belt/bracer/boot etc slots are the ones that drop from the first three bosses in sunwell (which will remain fairly exclusive for a while), so people will still need to go into battlegrounds and pick up their vet/vindicator gear to compete at the same gear levels as others.

I really don't see much of a problem here, it evens out the playing field and reduces a hell of a lot of the grinding involved in getting your character geared up for just starting to PVP, let alone actually being on par with the best geared players in your battlegroup. This is a problem which will only get worse as new arena seasons are added, so I'm glad that something is being done to address both the backlog of "gearing up" for pvp and the rotting token situation in pve.

Blizzard are changing how you aquire PvP gear to something that's a lot less work, I can see people being pissed off when newer players aren't required to go through the exact same hoops as they were, but really - when you look at it in a totally unbias way, this is a positive change which should make the whole PvP experience much *much* less of a grind and more about how you actually handle yourself in the arena itself.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 07:59 PM
If this is the case, then you should be able to buy S1 + 2 for honor points not just S1, also it should be reduced prices from honor, every guild has kara on farm nowadays and getting S1 will be a lot easier and faster if you can farm instances rather than farming bgs.

Anyone who thinks this is fair because it means the pve whores stand a chance in pvp is completely missing the arguement... sure it evens it out for the pve guilds, but they dont have to do any pvp in order to get the rewards for it, and could get multiple parts in just 1 day. Whereas if a new pvper made an arena team, it'd be 2-3 weeks before they could get even one part of S2.

If you cant see the problem with this you're either a raider or a retard.

"This is a problem which will only get worse as new arena seasons are added, so I'm glad that something is being done to address both the backlog of "gearing up" for pvp"

If it was helping EVERYONE get the pvp gear then there wouldn't be so many ppl having a problem with it... it's the fact that this change is aimed only at assisting raiders who want to pvp aswell.

Edit: You dont even have any arena teams, no wonder you're all for the change xD

Gaxy
16-02-2008, 08:07 PM
mkay, that sucks really.. :(

Harr
16-02-2008, 08:10 PM
PvE tokens are still random drops as far I know so its not guaranteed to get the right one for your class. (Could go even months before get one when all other dkp usage is considered).

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 08:14 PM
I really don't see why people are against this. Unless I've not understood it, you take PvE armour, get PvP Armour. For example, I'm on my Shaman, I decide I don't want to raid anymore, I don't have the time, so, I'll casual pvp instead, just change my gear over and alls ok. So, whats the reasoning most people are against this?

That's not how it works, you have to go get the tier marks and turn them in for the rewards.

The thing you just described would be even more retarded.

You should apply to work for blizz.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 08:19 PM
PvE tokens are still random drops as far I know so its not guaranteed to get the right one for your class. (Could go even months before get one when all other dkp usage is considered).

Or, you could go 1 run and get more than one piece?

Valoran
16-02-2008, 08:21 PM
If this is the case, then you should be able to buy S1 + 2 for honor points not just S1, also it should be reduced prices from honor, every guild has kara on farm nowadays and getting S1 will be a lot easier and faster if you can farm instances rather than farming bgs.
I agree, there should possibly be a way to get pve gear from pvp. But hey, pvp gear (especially s3 and especially weapons) are a lot better than entry level pve items. The only people who can't really use s3 gear for pve are tanks, and even then we have druids who use s3 bracers over 95% of the other drops in game.

If every guild has karazhan on farm, then even you benefit from this change when you want to gear up an alt and pvp from a different perspective.

Anyone who thinks this is fair because it means the pve whores stand a chance in pvp is completely missing the arguement... sure it evens it out for the pve guilds, but they dont have to do any pvp in order to get the rewards for it, and could get multiple parts in just 1 day. Whereas if a new pvper made an arena team, it'd be 2-3 weeks before they could get even one part of S2.
No, the pve whores stand no chance in pvp because they don't have any vet/vindicator gear. Any serious PvPer would vastly outgear them *and* have the upper hand in experience. This isn't going to suddenly make skilled pvpers lose because they no longer have a complete upper hand when it comes to gear. It has nothing to do with the pve whores getting "easy" access to pvp items, it has everything to do with the whole pvp grind becoming easier as a whole. Currently farming full s1 gladiator and full s3 off set items from honor is just too much work for most people to be bothered with. Why should anyone have to do that? Regardless of whatever you want to classify them as.
If you cant see the problem with this you're either a raider or a retard.

Edit: You dont even have any arena teams, no wonder you're all for the change xD
Did you just look up my bank alt's arena teams? I think you did. I haven't played Valoran for a very, very long time.

Anyway, I hope you can see that this is a positive change, and you're not just being bitter because nobody will take you to karazhan/t5.

Valoran
16-02-2008, 08:23 PM
Or, you could go 1 run and get more than one piece?
25 man raiding guilds will generally require that you get items for PvE purposes first. Chances are most of your tokens will go to PvE items for a very, very long time. After main spec PvE tokens are finished, tanks and healers might want dps gear, dpsers might want healing/tank gear - it's really not as simple as you're making out and it's very rare that someone will talk into an instance and get multiple tokens in one night.

Just shows how much raiding you've done. :P

Flawless
16-02-2008, 08:26 PM
Oic, Pays to look at all the screenshots. I thought with this much uproar it included S3 also.

Valoran
16-02-2008, 08:31 PM
Oic, Pays to look at all the screenshots. I thought with this much uproar it included S3 also.
Nope, and just to make it perfectly clear - the only pieces of s3 gear which are available from trade in are the vindicator bracers, boots and belt, which you get from handing in the token drops from the first three bosses in sunwell.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Anyway, I hope you can see that this is a positive change, and you're not just being bitter because nobody will take you to karazhan/t5.

I've cleared kara actually! /flex... finally some "end game" content that i've finished... even if it isn't even close to end game in reality \o/

Edit: i've been to gruul's aswell actually!

And yes 25 mans will require that, but 10 mans are being pugged by most, and a lot of guilds wont need those tokens for pve gear anymore, which will make it a lot easier to get for pvers than it would to farm honor, and there will be some raid guilds that wont need the 25 man tokens for pve gear aswell. I never said you WOULD "talk" (giggle) into an instance and get multiple parts, i've only seen 3 tokens drop in all the kara runs i've done, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a possibility :P

Valoran
16-02-2008, 08:45 PM
I've cleared kara actually! /flex... finally some "end game" content that i've finished... even if it isn't even close to end game in reality \o/

And yes 25 mans will require that, but 10 mans are being pugged by most, and a lot of guilds wont need those tokens for pve gear anymore, which will make it a lot easier to get for pvers than it would to farm honor, and there will be some raid guilds that wont need the 25 man tokens for pve gear aswell. I never said you WOULD "talk" (giggle) into an instance and get multiple parts, i've only seen 3 tokens drop in all the kara runs i've done, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a possibility :P
Right, so congrats. You've done your karazhan pug and picked up two pieces of t4, which you trade for your s1 gladiators gloves and hat. Now what?

The cost of that in honor is (10.5k + 14.5k) 25k honor and 50 AV tokens. That's one AV weekend vs. who knows how many karazhan runs before you get the two tokens you and possibly everyone else in your raid group are after. Sure, it's possible that you get them in your first 3 hour clear of the place, but highly unlikely.

Still, I don't see how you can possibly think this is a negative change to the way you can pick up OLD SEASON pvp gear, I'll say it again but to be on par with the best geared people in your battlegroup, you still have a pretty sizable amount of pvping to do. Grind reduction = good.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 08:50 PM
25k honor in a weekend is a lot more difficult than a kara run though :P Also this is completely missing the point of it giving you pvp rewards without actually having to do any pvp. If the raiders dont want to get killed in pvp they should have to gear up the same way that everyone else has to. If i had the choice i'd rather have a raild guild and experience the raiding while still pvping in bgs for gear.
I'm not only pvping through choice and i dont see why raiders should be able to get the same gear without putting the same amount of work in. (Same amount of work meaning pvp work, before there's the whole "pve requires more work overall than pvp" arguement)

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 08:55 PM
I agree, there should possibly be a way to get pve gear from pvp. But hey, pvp gear (especially s3 and especially weapons) are a lot better than entry level pve items. The only people who can't really use s3 gear for pve are tanks, and even then we have druids who use s3 bracers over 95% of the other drops in game.

Oops didn't notice this, I never said you should be able to get pve gear from pvp and i wouldn't want pve gear from pvp, i said that season 2 should be available for honor at the price of S1 with season 1 gear at a reduced price. Well I didn't say all that, but i thought it atleast...

Valoran
16-02-2008, 08:57 PM
25k honor in a weekend is a lot more difficult than a kara run though :P Also this is completely missing the point of it giving you pvp rewards without actually having to do any pvp. If the raiders dont want to get killed in pvp they should have to gear up the same way that everyone else has to. If i had the choice i'd rather have a raild guild and experience the raiding while still pvping in bgs for gear.
I'm not only pvping through choice and i dont see why raiders should be able to get the same gear without putting the same amount of work in.
Are you blind?

You get pvp gear, yes.

But you don't get the best pvp gear available. Why the fuck does an item intended for pvp and itemised with resilience have to come from spending hour upon hour in battlegrounds? So you'll feel better about yourself? Are you so insecure in your ability to pvp that you need other people to be significantly worse geared than you to win? You think that having pvp gear more easily available to *everyone* won't have a positive effect on battlegrounds and arenas by introducing a new wave of players who had taken one look at the grind required and done a runner?

If raiders want to pvp and want to be competitive, they have to put exactly the same amount of effort as you do to get a set of full s3. The only thing in question is how much work should you do if you're late to the starting block and have to grind a full set of gear to last longer than three seconds in an arena. Have you compared the blue starter kit you can get from grinding reputation with season 1? 10 stamina here, 5 resilience there, it's a very marginal upgrade, for considerably more work involved.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 09:01 PM
It's not more easily available to *everyone* and that's the point i'm trying to make... pvers now have 3 ways of getting the gear, battlegrounds + arenas + raiding. Ppl who dont raid have 2 ways... so in what way is this easier for everyone?

If ppl took one look at the grind required and done a runner it's their choice, they chose to raid and therefore they knew the gear they'd be getting would be gimped in pvp. If they cant be bothered to do the grind then they dont deserve to get the rewards.

Edit: "Are you so insecure in your ability to pvp that you need other people to be significantly worse geared than you to win?" I used to duel in twill? I now do arenas on my warlock who's geared up in blues, some not even lvl 70, and a few parts S1 cause i cant really be bothed to do the grind again, and that's fine by me, i dont deserve the rewards cause i cba to do it all again.

Valoran
16-02-2008, 09:14 PM
If they cant be bothered to do the grind then they dont deserve to get the rewards.Why the fuck does an item intended for pvp and itemised with resilience have to come from spending hour upon hour in battlegrounds?

Again. This is the same argument as removing attunements or any of the other various hoops people were required to jump through, who are you to say that doing 100+ hours of pvp should be required before starting to do arenas, or that leveling should take 3 rather than 10 days /played, or that you should kill nightbane and gruul before doing ssc and four heroics and mag before stepping foot into tk. The game moves on, the earlier grinds are replaced by new and improved grinds, it's not a big deal.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 09:18 PM
I never said it should have to come from spending hour upon hour in bgs, there's plenty of other alternatives, like reducing the cost as i said, if not that, it should still be through pvp rather than raiding. Raiders shouldn't be able to get the same quality pvp gear without having to do any pvp.

"The game moves on, the earlier grinds are replaced by new and improved grinds, it's not a big deal."

The problem is everyone is still gonna have to spend the same amount of time in bgs, doing the same grind to get the rewards APART from raiders who have the chance of getting the rewards sooner. Even if the chance of getting the reward is lower it is still an advantage to the raiders.

Also yes it's the same arguement, and i've had plenty of pve whores that i know telling me how they've just spent all their time getting attuned and whining how now guilds can just walk straight in. It's not like noone complained when that happened either.

Valoran
16-02-2008, 09:23 PM
Raiders shouldn't be able to get the same quality pvp gear without having to do any pvp.
False. At best they get s2 hat/shoulders/chest/gloves/legs.
Also the problem is everyone is still gonna have to spend the same amount of time in bgs to get the rewards APART from raiders who have the chance of getting the rewards sooner. Even if the chance of getting the reward is lower it is still an advantage to the raiders.
You yourself said Karazhan was puggable. Why is there this solid line between pve and pvp content that you refuse to step over? Blizzard have said a number of times they want people to experience all aspects of the game, here's your carrot. This *is* a positive change.

Valoran
16-02-2008, 09:24 PM
It's not like noone complained when that happened either.
Those are retards, don't worry.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 09:28 PM
How is this helping pvpers experience pve content? It means that raiders can skip the battleground aspect of the game and jump straight into arenas.


From doing battlegrounds pvpers can only get S1 before having to gear up in arenas, therefore raiders do get the same/better quality starter gear without having to do any pvp.

You're right... this IS a positive change... if you're a raider...

Tsarina
16-02-2008, 10:09 PM
My alts approve of this.

Đightrain
16-02-2008, 10:11 PM
Don't most of your alts already have better gear? :P

What happened to your hunter?

Senex
16-02-2008, 11:42 PM
The only people who can't really use s3 gear for pve are tanks
Not sure about that - Vengeful Gladiator's Shield Wall is pretty sweet, and I expect that the S4 version will be even better.

Corruption
17-02-2008, 12:23 AM
Sure after they spent a couple of months gathering the pve pieces for the entire raid etc, they might start with handing out some pieces for pvp purpose, what an imbalance..

Not the point. The point is however, that PvP gear should be obtained from doing PvP, not from PvE, and vice versa. Instead of calling for raid tier gear to be available from arena points, the change should just not happen at all (thats if it is actually real).

Kinshara
17-02-2008, 12:28 AM
Nightrain: S2 will be available for honor at the start of S4, so newbie PvPers will also have a way of grabbing equivalent gear. There's a blue post on it somewhere, from Drysc I think. Same cost as current S1 pieces, S1 removed from vendors iirc.

As far as raiders jumping straight into arena... there will be a decentish advantage for the arena players with S3, which will likely grow as they spend more time there, get a better rating, and get S4 pieces while the PvEers are exploring SW25.

Valoran
17-02-2008, 12:30 AM
Not the point. The point is however, that PvP gear should be obtained from doing PvP, not from PvE, and vice versa.
Why?

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 12:44 AM
Nightrain: S2 will be available for honor at the start of S4, so newbie PvPers will also have a way of grabbing equivalent gear. There's a blue post on it somewhere, from Drysc I think. Same cost as current S1 pieces, S1 removed from vendors iirc.

As far as raiders jumping straight into arena... there will be a decentish advantage for the arena players with S3, which will likely grow as they spend more time there, get a better rating, and get S4 pieces while the PvEers are exploring SW25.

I'm not talking about S4, i'm talking about patch 2.4, even poorly rated raiders teams are still likely to have atleast one piece of S3 by now and plenty more by the time S4 is out, which is nothing to do with what i was on about... i'm talking about 2 teams that are gonna start soon and gearing up, the pvpers have to grind honor, the raiders have the advantage with honor and drops.

Also i know S2 will be available from honor at the start of S4 at the price of S1 now, but that's irrelevant. Raiders will still be able to get S2 from honor AND raiding.. therefore it'll still be easier for them. I wonder if they'll get S3 from raiding when S4 is out =/

Saha
17-02-2008, 12:54 AM
This *is* a positive change.

I can't see droping even more "free" gear into game as a positive change. WoW is slowly becoming a game where retards gear from skilled players gear differs by shoulders. Yes, one could argue that you'll still beat a retard in good gear if you're skilled, but what's the point of having gear in game overall then?
This PvP gear shite, coupled with other badger crap is one of the most retarded things blizzard implemented in TBC (admitedly, PvP from PvE gear is only on PTR, but the general pattern remains same).
Too much gear, too little effort.


On a side note, the idea of picking gear you want for badgers as well as "customization" through geming is good one as a whole, but largely fails due to multiple tiers of gear being available for same currency- the badger. Gear evolved, while badgers not. But I guess that's a completely different topic.

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 12:55 AM
Why?

Why should raiders get pvp gear from raiding?

Pvp gear should be a reward from pvping in order to make it easier to pvp, in the same way that raid gear upgrades make the pve content easier.

Saha
17-02-2008, 01:02 AM
Why should raiders get pvp gear from raiding?

Pvp gear should be a reward from pvping in order to make it easier to pvp, in the same way that raid gear upgrades make the pve content easier.

Next step would be creating separate servers? PvP ones with Org/IF and arenas/bgs, and PvE ones with instances but not bgs/arenas.
Its one game.

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 01:21 AM
Yes it's one game, with 2 sides of it, you shouldn't be rewarded for one side without having to do it. Like valoran said, they want you to experience both sides of it, and rewarding raiders with pvp gear will mean they can skip half of it.

Saha
17-02-2008, 01:35 AM
Yes it's one game, with 2 sides of it, you shouldn't be rewarded for one side without having to do it. Like valoran said, they want you to experience both sides of it, and rewarding raiders with pvp gear will mean they can skip half of it.

Yes, I'm gona take full season 2 gear for t6 tokens (lulz vanquisher), bank it and skip PvPing part of the game.

Valoran
17-02-2008, 01:37 AM
Yes it's one game, with 2 sides of it, you shouldn't be rewarded for one side without having to do it. Like valoran said, they want you to experience both sides of it, and rewarding raiders with pvp gear will mean they can skip half of it.
Not at all, how is getting 5/5 s2 gladiator gear skipping pvp? Even if it was given free of charge to everyone entering a t5/6 instance, these people still don't have a full pvp set, they lack any of the offspec items and don't have an insignia, more to the point, if they've never done any pvp before they would likely just get destroyed. So, what's the problem if it's now easier to gear up alts/rerolls and newcomers to PvP? They still have to step into battlegrounds/arenas to actually make use of the items. I really cannot see why you're crying so much over this.

Jamespope
17-02-2008, 01:42 AM
so raiders may soon be able to get pvp gear easier tbh so what pvpers can now also get pve gear easier 2 with all the removed attunmeants and improved badge gear fact it blizzard did this before TBC they are going to do it at the end of TBC and they will do it at the end of wotlk because by this time everyone is well geared pritty much in the aspects of the game they enjoy and blizzard are making it easier on everyone to get those pieces of gear that people want its all just preparation for wotlk. and they doing it so those new 2 million new members can gear quickly to a nice standard in preparation for wotlk as u can now lvl easier it is also easier to gear in all aspects and with the new 25 man daily limit comming in and alot more dailies than they are letting ppl have easier money for wotlk.

they arent making it that easy as at the start of wotlk it will be back to square 1 all the pvpers will have to grind honour again and pve's will all be sorting attunemeants to progress and even if tier tokens are available to trade for pvp gear then so what more than likely will not be used until months after when alts are running it.

p.s the above is my opinion not fact is just the way i write =D

Muh
17-02-2008, 01:45 AM
Not at all, how is getting 5/5 s2 gladiator gear skipping pvp? Even if it was given free of charge to everyone entering a t5/6 instance, these people still don't have a full pvp set, they lack any of the offspec items and don't have an insignia, more to the point, if they've never done any pvp before they would likely just get destroyed. So, what's the problem if it's now easier to gear up alts/rerolls and newcomers to PvP? They still have to step into battlegrounds/arenas to actually make use of the items. I really cannot see why you're crying so much over this.

He's just trying to make his point.
Ofcourse the majority of the people is gonna be happy about this, otherwise Blizzard wouldn't be interested in implementing it.

Doesn't mean everyone has to agree, and not everyone will.
Saying it -is- a positive change, is just a matter of how you look at it?


ps James, my eyes hurt : <

Senex
17-02-2008, 01:59 AM
Yes it's one game, with 2 sides of it, you shouldn't be rewarded for one side without having to do it. Like valoran said, they want you to experience both sides of it, and rewarding raiders with pvp gear will mean they can skip half of it.
As I've already said before, the key problem here is that PvP gear progression is horribly stunted compared to its PvE counterpart.

When it comes to PvE gearing, a newly minted level 70 has plenty of options:

-Kill mobs and hope for good drops
-Do quests for rewards
-Buy stuff on the AH
-Amass faction reputation
-Participate in Skettis/Ethereum activities
-Do 5-man instances, heroic or otherwise
-Engage in crafting

Later, that player can move on to 10-man instances, 25-man instances, tougher 25-man instances, and world bosses.

On other hand, PvP gearing options are limited to:

-Grinding BGs
-Doing Arenas

(Oh, yeah, there were also some crappy rewards for PvP marks in Thrallmar/HH, plus two level 66 blues that you got for fighting in Halaa)

Later, this player can move on to... doing more Arenas and BGs?

The 2.4 changes partially address this disrepancy. The best PvP gear still comes from PvP activities, but at least there are now three new avenues to acquire a "PvP starter set". This solution is far from perfect, but it will have to suffice for now.

On a related note, I can't help but wonder how Blizzard plans to address this issue in WotLK. Perhaps that Lake Wintergrasp zone will turn out to be something more than a glorified Halaa, after all.

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 12:17 PM
Everyone's still missing the point i'm trying to make, it doesn't matter that they still need their trinket, i didn't say they WILL skip pvp, obviously they're going to have to do some pvp, what i said was that raiders now have 3 ways to gear up as opposed to 2 for the non raiders, and that they also have the chance to have a better pvp starter set than non raiders.
Also i'm not crying about it, you're just saying the same thing over and over while completely avoiding this point. Sure pvp gear progression is more difficult, but this change isn't making it easier for EVERYONE like ppl keep saying, it is aimed solely at the raider and that's why I feel it's NOT a good change. /sigh

Borwin
17-02-2008, 03:28 PM
Saying that raiders got 3 ways to aquire gear compared to PvPers 2 ways is dumb. You also have 3 ways, just become a raider.

Also it's like saying that Raiders suddenly get 36 hours a day compared to pvpers 24 hours... just because you have more ways to get the items doesn't mean its possible.

A whole lot of raiders have it as easy to do high-end PvP as PvPers have it to join a raiding guild, because of spec and class for example. Tell me any prot paladin or warrior who can do anything in "high end" arena.

Lastly, the people who will get pvp gear for tokens is so very very few % because a) the right token has to drop b) KZ = 4 tokens for 10 people, one time a week. c) 25 man raiders move on to new content, and will not have much redundant tokens, especially when now attunements are lifted. Raiders who dont move on will have a steady influx of newbies so they will forever hand out PvE tokens anyway.

Crash
17-02-2008, 04:45 PM
Gosh, what an exciting debate. Most of what I think about this has been stated by senex, but I just want to comment on Đightrain's main argument; that is, that PvP and PvE are two separate games, with two separate progression paths that should not interfere with each other.

Since the start of TBC up until now I suppose this has been true, and I can't emphasise enough how much I fucking hated it. Before we killed Illidan I hadn't even been in an arena, as I didn't have the money for respecs or the time to find an arena team and play in it. These days I do have the time and the money, which is nice, because it means I can finally play the rest of the game that I, you know, pay for. You might say that I could have played arenas with prot spec and crappy gear just to slowly build up arena points, but that's like going into Karazhan to kill Attumen for the single badge, then wipe on Moroes for the rest of the night. You'd eventually get some badge loot, but it wouldn't be fun and it's not what I play the game for.

I consider myself a WoW player; not a WoW PvP player or a WoW PvE player, because it's one game, for Christ's sake. Đightrain, I get the impression that you've decided you're a PvP player because you've assumed that segregation of the game is The Way It Should Be, and allowing players from the other side to compete with you is A Bad Thing. I don't like this concept at all, and I'm glad that Blizzard are doing something to integrate the two sides. I wouldn't be at all bothered if, say, PvP players could spend arena points on T5 gear for raiding. In fact, I would like to see more players raiding. This whole "I'm a PvP player and I have no intention of touching PvE, and I don't want PvE players going near my game" mentally causes people to miss out on a hell of a lot of content that they should be experiencing. If you don't want to raid to get gear, fine, but just because you made that decision, doesn't mean that other players shouldn't be encouraged from doing just that.

Oh and, err, I think T5 tokens should give S1 gear, not S2.

Warlee
17-02-2008, 05:06 PM
Next step would be creating separate servers? PvP ones with Org/IF and arenas/bgs, and PvE ones with instances but not bgs/arenas.
Its one game.

Awesome idea, but there is already one seperated server for this. Stormscale. And well... imo they should give from pvp equal weapons and trinkets, because atm pve weapons/trinkets > pvp ones.

Edit: Ah, Nightrain. Well, to be honest if you do only pvp, you have full season 3 anyway. Than fight between pver and pvper is just case of skill/class and imo its fine because usually pvper will have better clue what to do. As I mentioned before I don't like fact that weapons and trinkets from pve are overpowered but I guess it will stay like this. As it cannot be solved otherwise.

Valoran
17-02-2008, 05:12 PM
You're aware that a considerable amount of pve goes on on stormscale? It's just a high population server that a lot of people who wanted to take part in *any* part of the wow endgame have transferred/rerolled to.

Warlee
17-02-2008, 05:15 PM
Yes, but most of people does pvp on decent level, even the pvers. And here comes advantage of doing both at once than only pvp. Not really fun when you meet healers with BT weapons/trinkets. It does help a lot.

Edit: Also, gems buyable from honor shouldn't be unique. I don't see a reason why we need to spend 200g for each.

Valoran
17-02-2008, 05:18 PM
Yes, but most of people does pvp on decent level, even the pvers. And here comes advantage of doing both at once than only pvp. Not really fun when you can meet healers with BT weapons/trinkets. It does help a lot.
In your previous post you mentioned that stormscale was a "seperated server". That conflicts with the idea that a large amount of pve happens on it. The original idea was to disallow arenas/bgs in one and pve instances in the other.

Warlee
17-02-2008, 05:20 PM
Yes, I changed meaning of it myself as this idea was ironic. Everyone gets bored with either pvp or pve after some time.

Also to add. Nightrain, you do have kind of seperation. I know it doesn't really work in practic, but for sure PvP server will be better for you if you want to do only this aspect of game. Well, practicaly PvP servers have rather PvE on higher level too but it might be population case.

Scouserlol
17-02-2008, 05:37 PM
I have to say that as a player who finally found a way to play this game in a casual way and still be able to keep up with the gear progression, I'm quite disappointed. I don't have the time to raid, I can't schedule my time in such a way that I can put aside a whole night 3 times a week and be dependable. So for me to hear that people who invest alot of time in the game to PVE are now going to be rewarded for with PVP gear, it doesn't sit right with me for a couple of reasons.

You're being given a reward that you essentially didn't earn. Getting PVP items from a PVE task IMO is not right. You should have to earn your items by carrying out that particular task. If I want some shit hot PVE gear, I should be shit hot at PVE. This is the case now, if you don't know what you're doing, you wipe and you get no gear. When you get better at that particular encounter you eventually are rewarded with PVE gear. So you should have to spend your time in the BG's or Arena and earn your gear, especially with the addition of resillience which can now allow someone with better gear to win fights even if they make a plethora of mistakes.

The other reason is that I was enjoying the break away of the game into two seperate categories. It seems now that they're trying to merge them again. It may not be a bad thing, healthy competition should be a good addition. Rambling now because I've got a hang over... but yeh, I'm a little gutted about this!

Valoran
17-02-2008, 05:57 PM
You're being given a reward that you essentially didn't earn. Getting PVP items from a PVE task IMO is not right. You should have to earn your items by carrying out that particular task. If I want some shit hot PVE gear, I should be shit hot at PVE.
Getting PvP gear at the moment doesn't require you to be shit hot at anything, just spend a lot of time doing the same thing over, and over. It'll just take that little bit longer (or to cheat, in the case of s3 shoulders or weapons).

Crash
17-02-2008, 06:18 PM
You're being given a reward that you essentially didn't earn. Getting PVP items from a PVE task IMO is not right. You should have to earn your items by carrying out that particular task.
I don't get this. Why is it "wrong" to be given items that are good for PvP by only doing PvE? It already happens, especially with weapons. Do you feel that the time you spent grinding honour or whatever for gear will be diminished by having to go up against people who didn't do that but still have the same gear? They'll have to put in time an effort too, and at least those people handing in T6 tokens for PvP gear will have had to achieve something, instead of AFKing their way through battlegrounds or slowly 1300 ratinging themselves up to S2/S3 gear.

Maybe you're worried that you'll lose arena matches to people in S2 gear gained through PvE. Well if they haven't been PvPing then you should beat them due to having real PvP experience, right?

People complaining about PvE players not "earning" PvP gear because they're not actually engaged in PvP is like a raiding guild complaining about being beaten to a boss kill by another guild just because they used PvP weapons.

And to those PvP players who say that integrating the PvP/PvE sides of the game would be a bad thing, give me a practical example of how it would actually affect you in a negative way. This is not a rhetorical question.

Scouserlol
17-02-2008, 06:39 PM
Maybe you're worried that you'll lose arena matches to people in S2 gear gained through PvE. Well if they haven't been PvPing then you should beat them due to having real PvP experience, right?



Check my comment regarding healthy competition, I'm really not that pathetic :) I'm not all OMFG IM CANCELLING MY SUB BLIZZ SUCKS... I'm just midly annoyed :)

Edit: It'd be nice if they included Raiding gear as a PVP reward like you said and removed attunements... that'd balance things quite nicely actually. It also makes sense to say you can invest all your time into one part of the game, but still enjoy both when you feel the need.... hmm...

Kathra
17-02-2008, 06:40 PM
Changes nothing.

Just means that the skilled PvE players who have limited time have more of a chance at ratings than the terrible players who farm 100 games a day to reach 1600.




Edit/Elaboration: The more skilled PvPers and the ones who truly deserve their rating - For example the boys from AwakenDemon - will still be higher rated and have faster access to Current-Season gear.

Scouserlol
17-02-2008, 07:08 PM
Also, I was just talking to Ogrosh about it on TS and he kind of put it into perspective. People aren't going to be walking out of an instance fully pvp geared up and ready to go. I'd imagine Raid Leaders are going to insist that everyone get's their PVE gear first. I don't know how long it takes to fully gear up a guild but I imagine it's a while. Certainly long enough for any serious PVP'ers to have collected alot of the gear anyway. Not only that, there's then the issue of whether any serious raider will want to blow DKP on PVP gear.

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 09:53 PM
Ok i've not read the comments since Crash's post and just to explain everything i meant:

I'm not against raiders joining arenas and getting the gear, i'd just prefer it if everyone had to get the gear the same way or atleast make the honor grind easier aswell, it's only 10 matches a week in arena which is more than doable for any raider and if raids that stop ppl from pvping in battlegrounds, so they're unable to get the honor for gear then that's their choice. It wasn't unfair on raiders as they knew the gear they'd be getting would be gimped if they wanted to arena aswell.

Sure I can become a raider, i've raided already, but even if i did become a hardcore raider chances are i wouldn't be seeing t5/6 badges for ages. It's not giving everyone an equal chance at getting the gear.

The point i've been trying to make all along isn't that raiders shouldn't be allowed to pvp, it's that I dont think raiders should be able to start with a better starter set than pvpers can , especially without the need to actually pvp... badges for pvp items being the worst part of the change.

I know that ppl wont be walking out of one instance in full S2 gear with full pvp items, when i said without the need to pvp i meant it's possible to not have to pvp, i didn't mean it's likely -.-.

Oh and i don't think the pvp/pve sides of the game should be kept seperate, I'd love for a proper pve/pvp instance to be made, kinda like a normal instance with both pvp+pve loot dropping where the teams would have to come up against eachother every now and then, or slow eachother down by sending ppl across to ambush or w/e. Would be ausum.

But this change isn't anything like that, it's not giving raiders the chance to pvp as they already had that. As unlikely as it is that they will be allowed to turn in the marks for pvp gear, it's potentially giving them the advantage gear wise, which is why i said both S1 and S2 should be available at the same time from pvp vendors.

Not sure how much sense this post made but meh \o/.

Valoran
17-02-2008, 10:09 PM
Cry more, there is nothing negative about this change.

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 10:15 PM
Cry more, there is nothing negative about this change.

At what point did i start crying? This is a positive change sure, aslong as you are a raider. Stop being a retard, you've completely avoided the point i've made about raiders being able to start with potentially better gear and only picked at the points such as "not having to pvp", which anyone with half a brain would realise I didn't mean they wouldn't pvp, i just meant it's a possibility.

Valoran
17-02-2008, 10:27 PM
It's not a negative change for pvpers, is the point you're missing.

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 10:31 PM
It is in the sense that they cant start with as good gear as pvpers can... when did i say it was a negative change for pvpers anyway? i said "it's a positive change IF you're a raider"... tell me how i'm wrong saying that?

Senex
17-02-2008, 10:34 PM
Professional raiders who stockpile Tier tokens will be, at best, able to start the 4th season with an S2 set, and maybe a Veteran/Vindicator item or two (note that the rest of their gear will still consist of 0-resilience PvE pieces).
Professional PvPers will be able to start the 4th season with a full S3/Vindicator gear and enough arena points to buy several S4 items outright.
Casual PvE players will get an option to start the 4th season with rep blues, badge-bought Veteran items, and a couple of S1 pieces exchanged for Kara tokens.
Casual PvP players will be able to start the 4th season with honor-bought S2/Vindicator items.

Whether you happen to be a casual or a professional player, you still get an advantage for focusing on PvP as your method of preparation for 4th season. Both the 'Starter Set' and 'Starter Set Deluxe' are below their corresponding PvP counterparts, although they are still better than nothing.

(Side note: The 'bypass' also works in the other direction - a fully S3 geared raid can easily skip Kara and plow straight into 25-mans)

Đightrain
17-02-2008, 10:36 PM
I did say "potentially" quite a few times =/ Also it doesn't change the fact that this is positive for raiders but pvpers who dont raid dont benefit from this :P

Stim
18-02-2008, 12:02 AM
World of Easymodecraft, again?



They better nerf that fucking Primals needed for enchants of all that stupid gear than more epic giveaways.

Senex
18-02-2008, 12:40 AM
Also it doesn't change the fact that this is positive for raiders but pvpers who dont raid dont benefit from this :P
Well, to be fair, raiders who don't PvP also get zero benefit from this, since they'll still cash in their tokens for actual Tier pieces. Only those who engage in both raiding *and* PvP will reap a direct profit.

(Indirectly, this change is positive for all serious PvP players as well, since they will now have a significantly wider pool of decently geared potential applicants to fill out spots on their arena teams and BG premades)
World of Easymodecraft, again?
Wait till you see Utgarde Keep blue drops, mon.

Benchi
18-02-2008, 03:20 AM
thats pretty fcking ridicilous.

soulshift
18-02-2008, 03:29 AM
The only issue I see here is that some people in raid guilds might just bid for the season gear on the tokens instead for PvE purposes. It's okay if you farm the boss but let's say the first 5+ kills or so everyone needs them for PvE progress. So it'd be sucky if people would just get them for PvP and all. :p

For the rest, quite happy with it. Wouldn't mind some S2 resto gear so I can do some real arenas instead of low ones with guildmembers. ><
I lack the gear to do it fulltime. It's not fun getting beaten around when you only have 2 pieces of pvp resto gear. >.>

Taurusos
18-02-2008, 05:40 AM
The only issue I see here is that some people in raid guilds might just bid for the season gear on the tokens instead for PvE purposes. It's okay if you farm the boss but let's say the first 5+ kills or so everyone needs them for PvE progress. So it'd be sucky if people would just get them for PvP and all. :p

For the rest, quite happy with it. Wouldn't mind some S2 resto gear so I can do some real arenas instead of low ones with guildmembers. ><
I lack the gear to do it fulltime. It's not fun getting beaten around when you only have 2 pieces of pvp resto gear. >.>

No offense but any raiding guild worth it┤s name KIND of can trust it┤s members and if no trust bloody double check raiders who pick up pvp items over pve.

This is not a problem so what you are posting is totally irrelevant.

Its nothing wrong with these changes and pvpers without a chance to raid who feel burned that the ones busting their ass off in pve raiding, some of us spending less time than so called "casuals" can diaf.

This is not an attack on you Soulshit mate matey just using your words to show opinion.

/Tau

Taurusos
18-02-2008, 05:41 AM
thats pretty fcking ridicilous.


Why?

/Tau

Bulldog
18-02-2008, 06:44 AM
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1396/31762100nn5.jpg

Margelatu
18-02-2008, 07:58 AM
The only issue I see here is that some people in raid guilds might just bid for the season gear on the tokens instead for PvE purposes. It's okay if you farm the boss but let's say the first 5+ kills or so everyone needs them for PvE progress. So it'd be sucky if people would just get them for PvP and all


That's why /gkicks are invented. IS so simple to make a rule : "you GOT to turn your first aquired token for your PVE spec if is a upgrade for you ; after that you can spent your dkp in the way you want.".


1. You remember in old WOW when you use to met in battlegrounds full AQ40-Naxx teams with T3. They were fkin unkillable with the average gear the Regular John had that time. There was a time when PvE-ers >> PvP ers . Badly.

2.Then after resilence appeared the trend was opposite : you field a T5 geared team in a bg and was completely destroyed by some Gladiator geared freaks. PvP-ers >> PvE -ers. Resilence fiesta.

3. Now all they do is to make PvP-ers = PvE-ers. ( regarding gear at least). Is more fair this way then any of the ex situation described above. Ofc some ppl like Nightrain or Benchi will be horrified looking at the perspective that they will loose their gear advantage ( bye bye ten second 2-3 crit killing shots ). When you are unsure of your skill ofc that loosing the gear advantage could be desastruous for your arena rating. But as the developers said , there are not two separate games , is only 1 game and they want all doing both sides of the game. The move then is in the right direction.


What I would like also to be done in the same direction ? Well , to let everyone make a free second PVP talent build. And be able to switch between your main build to the PvP build every time you enter in a Arena or Bg. You are in Arena / Bg ? You press a button and have acces to your pvp build . Only in arena / bg. Cause not everyone like/can spend 50 g twice / week to be able to raid AND pvp. This way can be avoided a lot of nasty situation . For example your tanks can't pvp now . Or some good raiders use to specc pvp and don't sign to raids those days ( and you could have attendance problems). Or worse, specc pvp and STILL come to raids : (happend to us ) wipe at Hidross at 1% then see that your mages were frost pvp specced and 1 rogue pvp crit specced.


Give PvE tokens to ppl based on their PvP rating / points ? I see no problem here.
If this help ppl WITH BRAIN have the gear to be able to join a PvE raid would be great. I know a lot of ppl who once were good raiders and now are doing only pvp . If this can help them / draw them to raiding (at least from time to time ) would be a great change too.




.

Đightrain
18-02-2008, 09:20 AM
(Indirectly, this change is positive for all serious PvP players as well, since they will now have a significantly wider pool of decently geared potential applicants to fill out spots on their arena teams and BG premades)

Luckily most of them will have "champion of the naaru" over their heads so they can be easily avoided ^____^

captpicard
18-02-2008, 10:12 AM
The more skilled PvPers and the ones who truly deserve their rating - For example the boys from AwakenDemon - will still be higher rated and have faster access to Current-Season gear.

Hahahaah ZING.

Stim
18-02-2008, 10:32 AM
The best part is that you don't actually have to do ANY time of pvp to get pvp gear with this. Brings whole new meaning to PVE NOOBS LOL phrase.

Next step: tier7 for badges, tier 5/6 for honor/arena points, raiding rep rewards for non raiding activities.

Đightrain
18-02-2008, 10:44 AM
I've already mentioned not having to do any pvp to get the gear, you shouldn't have mentioned it cause ppl think you mean that noone will pvp anymore as you think the items will drop non stop, then they start questioning your raiding experience :P

Stim
18-02-2008, 10:52 AM
No, I think that change is great! I mean I can run some pug SSC/TK to get s2 items on my alt while I'll distribute arena points for s3 gear. It is just this change is silly. Ofc I'd like to get something with less efforts on my side but I'm a lazy fuck. And I see no reason why you lift restrictions on something uncalled (more ezmode epix, no BT/Hyjal attunement) while maintaining some hardshit in other terms (5k gold for epic fly? C'mon!)

Turiel
18-02-2008, 11:50 AM
I've mixed feelings about this. I kind of agree that your PVE items are your reward for your efforts in raid content and PVP items should be your reward for your efforts in the PVP content, and yes they should be seperate paths of this game.

Say you have a BT level arena team who now have a full set of S2 gear. Combined with their BT gear, they probably match the PVPer teams who are in S3 gear. So without any PVP experience necessary, they're suddenly on equal footing with the PVPers. But are the PVPers on equal footing when it comes to the raid content? No way. They can't just drop into BT and do a couple of runs to gear up.

So now after writing this post, in fact, my "mixed feelings" are more in favour of NOT implementing this change. If the PVPers were able to get the T6 gear for honor (or arena) points, it'd be a little better, but even still... a 5 piece set won't let you compete in BT, for a lot of classes at least - not to mention that you need 20 more people.

Chonar
18-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Doesnt this.. totally remove the reason why PVP-resilience items were introduced in the first place?

Serhiy
18-02-2008, 12:15 PM
Doesnt this.. totally remove the reason why PVP-resilience items were introduced in the first place?

Uhu. Not really, resilience was introduced to prevent people from being 2 shotted like in vanilla WoW, so PvP "Battles" actually last longer and their outcome does not depend on cooldowns as much as it used to.

Margelatu
18-02-2008, 12:22 PM
Doesnt this.. totally remove the reason why PVP-resilience items were introduced in the first place?


Resilence was anyway a artificial and retarded stat. Resilence do too many things for only 1 stat. Resilence decrease the chance to be crit. Decrease the crit value. Now in 2.4 decrease the mana drain . BTW whats the next thing that resilience will do, increase incoming healing? increase your run speed? improve your attack power? automatically give you access to X amount of guild bank money?

That shit was a artificial form to keep casual PvE-ers away from PvP and to avoi you being two shotted like in vanilla wow.

No, I think that change is great! I mean I can run some pug SSC/TK to get s2 items on my alt while I'll distribute arena points for s3 gear. It is just this change is silly.

Yeah , good luck with a PvP-ppl pug at Leotheras , Al'ar , Hidross or Kael. Don't forget to "-intercept-hamstring-mortal strike-repeat" them all.

Sylenna
18-02-2008, 12:57 PM
Since loosing time for raiding I have moved to my horde for "casual pvp" and am grinding the S1 honor set and in a low rated arena team. In some ways I agree that raiders getting another option for more gear is a bit of a slap in the face to my grinding efforts, however, no more than my grinding efforts are a slap in the face for the first arena players getting S1.

Same way that guilds are getting into places with no attunements that the pioneering guilds worked hard to get into. Guess you can call it progression.

I don't think it's right to exclude anyone from pvp via horrible solo battleground grinding..hell I would love to see more people doing it, I don't think that gear should be an issue if you know what you are doing. For those who are into their image there will still be the latest and greatest arena set. I nuture the hope that with the introduction of PvE vendor bought items and raid token turn-ins, the horrible mentality of alliance "must grind honor fast ffs" may dissapear and we get some good pvp games in battlegrounds.

Also, if it means more alliance join the games I will be waiting and more than happy to stab them in the face!

Senex
18-02-2008, 01:19 PM
PvE progression is a ladder. PvP progression is a treadmill.

9 months ago, you could gather a group of T4-geared individuals and go kill some stuff in SSC or TK. Nowadays, you can pretty much do the same. If you and your friends decide to take a long break from raiding, you can come back several months later and continue from the same point.

In PvP, on other hand, you have to start early and run fast just to retain your position on the treadmill. The gear setup that could coast you into 2000+ rating in season 1 will bring you nothing but blood and tears in season 4. If PvE progression worked this way, the opening of BT and MH would cause Kara/Gruul/Maggie to be removed from the game, and the opening of Sunwell would shut down SSC and TK permanently.

This radical difference between PvE and PvP progression patterns has to be addressed somehow. Maybe the 2.4 changes are not the best solutions for this problem, but at least they are a sign that Blizzard recognizes the issue and is willing to work on it.

Kathra
18-02-2008, 03:30 PM
Uhu. Not really, resilience was introduced to prevent people from being 2 shotted like in vanilla WoW, so PvP "Battles" actually last longer and their outcome does not depend on cooldowns as much as it used to.

Exactly, so now we have mana-wars where the opponents try to drain and regen as much mana to eventually knock off a burst once your healers and/or dps are down to zero.

It's much better than Vanilla WoW even if those fights "could" be about very fast kills depending on your spec.

Much much better..

/sarcasm off


(I know it's offtopic, just ninja crying)

Valoran
18-02-2008, 03:36 PM
Say you have a BT level arena team who now have a full set of S2 gear. Combined with their BT gear, they probably match the PVPer teams who are in S3 gear. So without any PVP experience necessary, they're suddenly on equal footing with the PVPers. But are the PVPers on equal footing when it comes to the raid content? No way. They can't just drop into BT and do a couple of runs to gear up.
Urm, no way in hell will a 5/5 s2 gladiators team with zero resilience items in the rest of their slots and no pvp trinket stand anything close to a chance against a full vengeful team. It's not an equal footing at all, it's only slightly better than the blue starter kit available from outland reputation.

Kinshara
18-02-2008, 04:00 PM
Doesnt this.. totally remove the reason why PVP-resilience items were introduced in the first place?

No. The problem with pre-TBC wow pvp was that AQ/Naxx gear was by far the best stuff going -- even R14 epics didn't really come close, even though it roughly caught up with BWL gear. Non-raiders had very little chance of a fair fight against raiders, even if they spent most of their time pvping and were better at pvp than a given raider.

Now, both groups can get equivalent pvp gear, albeit in different ways if they choose to do so. The main thing is that it's accessible to everyone, rather than the people who have the time to raid.


That said, I do wish the resilience cap was lower; it's a bit *too* good right now, especially with the current strength of healing. Seeing 2v2 matches that last for 30 minutes or more is rather depressing, it basically means that dpsers are only competing against the healer's mana bar instead of being a real threat.

Valoran
18-02-2008, 04:03 PM
Now, both groups can get equivalent pvp gear
I wish people would stop exaggerating this point way out of proportion.

Kinshara
18-02-2008, 04:31 PM
I wish people would stop exaggerating this point way out of proportion.

It isn't. If you're new to the pvp scene, either by being a new dedicated pvper hitting the battlegrounds, or by being a raider that whose guild can spare the tier drops, you can gear up to S2 level.

The top arena players will outgear you, true, but they also outgear most pvpers.

Alverion
18-02-2008, 05:03 PM
So what is the time investment for a new raider to get to 5/5 S2?

How about a new pvper?

Kinshara
18-02-2008, 05:21 PM
So what is the time investment for a new raider to get to 5/5 S2?

How about a new pvper?

That depends on the guild in the first case, and the pvper in the second(or possibly, which faction they're on and whether they can find a decent premade, which may favour some classes over others).

Alverion
18-02-2008, 05:31 PM
I'll help you out.

Brand new guild, filled with wonderfully talented people without any tier gear whatsoever, but are able to clear Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon with the same 25 people every week. Without fail. You can assume that each token has a 33% of dropping for each time it could drop per week. Player is a shaman.

Brand new PvPer, Is in a 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5, they aren't exceptional but they aren't losers so they average out around 1600 rating in all teams every week, without fail, no higher and no lower. Queue times for arenas and BGs are static at 15 minutes each.

Who gets 5/5 S1 first?

You can even put the raider in SSC/TK, or BT/MH, nobody in his raid has the tier pieces that drop there. Still 33% to drop per token per token dropping kill. Who gets 5/5 S2 first?

You can put the raider and all his 24 friends in 2/5 T6 in BT/MH for a 3rd option, who gets 5/5 S2 first?

Saha
18-02-2008, 09:12 PM
I'll help you out.

Brand new guild, filled with wonderfully talented people without any tier gear whatsoever, but are able to clear Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon with the same 25 people every week. Without fail. You can assume that each token has a 33% of dropping for each time it could drop per week. Player is a shaman.

Brand new PvPer, Is in a 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5, they aren't exceptional but they aren't losers so they average out around 1600 rating in all teams every week, without fail, no higher and no lower. Queue times for arenas and BGs are static at 15 minutes each.

Who gets 5/5 S1 first?

You can even put the raider in SSC/TK, or BT/MH, nobody in his raid has the tier pieces that drop there. Still 33% to drop per token per token dropping kill. Who gets 5/5 S2 first?

You can put the raider and all his 24 friends in 2/5 T6 in BT/MH for a 3rd option, who gets 5/5 S2 first?


Druid.

Edit: Except the gloves.

Turiel
19-02-2008, 01:51 PM
I'll help you out.

Brand new guild, filled with wonderfully talented people without any tier gear whatsoever, but are able to clear Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon with the same 25 people every week. Without fail. You can assume that each token has a 33% of dropping for each time it could drop per week. Player is a shaman.

Brand new PvPer, Is in a 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5, they aren't exceptional but they aren't losers so they average out around 1600 rating in all teams every week, without fail, no higher and no lower. Queue times for arenas and BGs are static at 15 minutes each.

Who gets 5/5 S1 first?

You can even put the raider in SSC/TK, or BT/MH, nobody in his raid has the tier pieces that drop there. Still 33% to drop per token per token dropping kill. Who gets 5/5 S2 first?

You can put the raider and all his 24 friends in 2/5 T6 in BT/MH for a 3rd option, who gets 5/5 S2 first?


Have you actually worked these out? Kara+Gruul+Mag = 7 hours a week (they clear it without fail, no learning involved, as you say). You do 7 hours of BGs a week and it'll be a hell of a long time getting your S1 gear.

Flawless
19-02-2008, 02:05 PM
Depends if the other 24 people you raid with and what drops.

Alverion
19-02-2008, 04:09 PM
You kinda hit it on the head there Turiel, this thread talks a lot about extremes at either end. Raiders who NEVER PVP suddenly bypassing actual PVPrs and PVPrs who NEVER raid somehow being destroyed by these non-pvping raiders who suddenly have instant access to pvp gear apparently. So my example only talks about people who do one or the other.

It doesn't really work out so well, a PvPr working on getting his S1 gear isn't as time and effort restricted in this, once a raider is done with his 7 hours a week having meted out the epics to those who need it, waiting his turn for the item to drop a second time solely for him. His time can only be measured accurately in weeks per item. The PvPr can work out a rough honor per hour and put in as many hours as needed to get the item he wants for S1.

S2 and S3 come closer to the raider model in that it can be measured in items per week, but it's a quantifiable amount of items per week (or weeks per item more accurately). To make it truer to the raider model though, at the end of the week the PvPr could get a mail with a S3 item, it may or may not be usable by your class though : b

I certainly don't agree with Nightrain whose conclusion seems to be that any and all raiders will suddenly be walking around in 5/5 S1/S2 by the end of the first week of the patch going live. It's just not feasible. The only guilds where this could possibly be feasible is the ones who have been farming Illidan and Archimonde since like July, because we still have tier pieces being picked up for main specs. Hell, I only got my T6 gloves 2 weeks ago and we first killed Azgalor in August and I'm certainly not the last in line. Ask poor stabs : b

It should swing the other way though and Arena folk should have the opportunity to spend excess arena points on Tier 4/5. If this is already in effect then yay all round.

It's been said already but Blizzard do want to have PvE and PvP mix and match a little in their playstyle. Segregation of players to either pole only works at the extremes (bleeding edge raid guilds and top rated arena players pushing their rating all the time), for everyone in between more options in either field is always going to be a very good thing in the long run.

There are more people who do both rather than one or the other.

Kinshara
19-02-2008, 04:45 PM
Hours spent in BG also doesn't correlate with honor/hour, at least when I've been pugging; some nights I might get 3K+ honor for a couple hours(mainly AV weekend when the opposing side does everything wrong), others I'll get 400ish after a couple hour-long warsong flaghug matches.

Tends to be more predictable when in a premade, as I said.

5/5 S3 via arena (1600 5v5, 465 points/week, 7172 points needed) seems like it will take a little over 15 weeks to achieve once the cost goes down next season, though you'll probably want to wait a couple more weeks and get 4/5 S4 + 1/5 S3.

Raiders, depends on the guild, whether you still farm old content, token contention, whether you have minimum dkp costs, etc. But I agree with Alverion, you won't see hundreds of raiders suddenly appearing in full S2 inside a couple weeks.

Senex
19-02-2008, 04:55 PM
It's been said already but Blizzard do want to have PvE and PvP mix and match a little in their playstyle. Segregation of players to either pole only works at the extremes (bleeding edge raid guilds and top rated arena players pushing their rating all the time), for everyone in between more options in either field is always going to be a very good thing in the long run.
Mind, the segregation at the extremes is still in effect - if anything, the availability of common tools of the trade just made the competition for the remaining unique items far more fierce. A Hand of A'dal riding a Phoenix mount and wielding twin warglaives is a walking status symbol; so is the Vengeful Gladiator on his signature armored netherdrake.

Đightrain
19-02-2008, 06:01 PM
I certainly don't agree with Nightrain whose conclusion seems to be that any and all raiders will suddenly be walking around in 5/5 S1/S2 by the end of the first week of the patch going live.

Wtf, did you read my posts with brain engaged? Or did you do what Valoran done and assumed I actually expected raiders to walk out of an instance in a full pvp set. Not once did i say i expect raiders to be walking straight out in S2. I said they can potentially get a better starting set, faster than pvpers which is what i was trying to point out when saying they can walk out of instances with multiple pieces of S2.

Senex
19-02-2008, 06:41 PM
You can get multiple pieces of S2 by biding your time and semi-afking in AV. ;)

Đightrain
19-02-2008, 06:59 PM
You can get S2 from honor? :P

Turiel
19-02-2008, 07:21 PM
In 2.4, yes you can.

Đightrain
19-02-2008, 07:24 PM
2.4 = season 4? =/

Valoran
19-02-2008, 07:56 PM
No.

Đightrain
19-02-2008, 08:04 PM
Ok i'm confused then, can you buy S2 in 2.4? or is it with the S4 release like they said originally? *headache*

▄ber
19-02-2008, 08:07 PM
You can get S2 from honor?

In 2.4, yes you can.

._.

Kabhanda
19-02-2008, 08:20 PM
Poor Nightrain getting confused, just come over here and drop your trousers like a good boy.

Proterra
19-02-2008, 09:56 PM
oh my..did this thread just actually get interesting?

Bleetman
19-02-2008, 10:03 PM
That said, I do wish the resilience cap was lower; it's a bit *too* good right now
As the damage stats on the arena sets increase (with resilience presumably staying as it is, Blizzard don't seem to want to add more just yet), that should become less noticable. Obviously the crit reduction will scale, but you'll do more damage overall.

Senex
19-02-2008, 11:25 PM
Hence the 'biding your time' part.

Kinshara
20-02-2008, 12:27 AM
As the damage stats on the arena sets increase (with resilience presumably staying as it is, Blizzard don't seem to want to add more just yet), that should become less noticable. Obviously the crit reduction will scale, but you'll do more damage overall.

I know, I'm just a little disappointed that certain specs which were viable in pvp before are now quite bad against high resilience opponents. I don't want to 2shot people, but I do miss the playstyle opportunities we had before. Hopefully Blizzard will think a bit more when testing pvp for WotLK.

Turiel
20-02-2008, 10:49 AM
No.

Hmm... yes? :)

Not right at the start of 2.4, but during it. Afaik. Can't remember where
I read that though.

edit:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4300090400&postId=42998137520&sid=1

Valoran
20-02-2008, 03:52 PM
Hmm... yes? :)

Not right at the start of 2.4, but during it. Afaik. Can't remember where
I read that though.

edit:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4300090400&postId=42998137520&sid=1
It might be during 2.4.x, but there has been no word giving us any warning of at all. 2.4 is *soon*, if s4 was lined up to be in the works, I'm sure they'd tell us.

Turiel
20-02-2008, 04:43 PM
I think 2.4 is far from soon. 1.5-3 months is my estimate.

Season 4 will be before new expansion, and 2.4 is planned to be the last patch. Consider this information: S2 arena gear will be sold for honor points during Season 4. That means that Season 4 has to be before the new expansion, because S2 arena gear becomes "worthless" with the launch of WotLK.

So... Season 4 is, I would guess, about 2-4 weeks after patch 2.4.