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Evilzor
07-01-2008, 09:25 PM
Posted by : Kovinar Warlock

My class doesn't take skill. I played a mage first for three years, and having goofed around with this warlock I realized just how many terrible players there were out there, hiding behind the super class that I'm posting on now. Hunters are almost as bad. And other classes are so borked that their skill doesn't really factor in anyway.

The idea that you're asking for an explanation for all the hate and discontent on this forum, while insisting that said hate and discontent does not bleed into this thread, strikes me as rather silly, but I'll briefly humor you on this one. Bear in mind, I'm going to use opinion words here, but until there is hard fact explaining why people complain, all we can provide is reasonable speculation.

-Lhivera, Muphrid, and Arazan pushed and fought against the coefficient nerf for quite a while, displaying tables of numbers displaying where casting classes stood in various respects, if they were permitted to cast in their most favorable conditions. Chain-casting, assuming the same damage, hit, and crit, mages fell behind warlocks, even if both were specced to the hilt for optimal nuking.

The issue of aoe damage came up in these conversations, so mages were analyzed against warlocks in terms of aoe spells. Again, mages fell behind by comparison, thanks to the development of one single spell. Seed of Corruption by far outperforms the supposed kings of aoe, and at the end of it, they have the luxury of restoring their spent mana without spending consumables to do so.

Falling behind in these ways tends to leave mages a little miffed, but some don't care much for pve encounters anyway. At least mages are better at pvp, right?


-The face of pvp has changed with the expansion and the introduction of arenas. Gear grants boatloads of health and resilience mitigates critical strike chance and critical strike damage at the same time. All but two classes pvp based on direct damage, possible critically-striking, spells and attacks. Of these, two are the least affected, as their damage stems from a source that is not permanently exhausted. I speak of rage and energy. Druids can be counted as an oddball third, if they're feral.

The classes that have a mana dependency for their damage were hurt by this, some to greater extents than others. Softening the blow of limited mana over longer fights involves either a significant source of direct damage that doesn't rely on mana, such as shots and pet attacks or melee orientation, or class features that enable the caster to regain significant amounts of mana. Innervate is excellent for this. Evocation is iffy, as it opens up a valuable school to interruption...and it also requires standing still, doing nothing while being channeled. The priest's trained summon is a handy little mana battery when it gets used.

Enter the warlock, with effectively unlimited mana. Life tap (dangerous in pvp, granted), followed by drain life, is an excellent tool for regaining mana, health, or both, especially coupled with possibly the best long-duration self buff in the game.

The other major change to the face of pvp is the dreaded pillar-hump. Classes that derive most of their damage from standing still and casting were hurt by the abundance of pillars in the existing arenas. Where a warlock or a priest have only to pop out for a half-second while mashing their dot key of choice, mages, hunters, elemental shaman, and balance druids find themselves a little hard-up for dishing out their damage. To keep up, druids have moonfire and insect swarm and healing spells, hunters have melee pets that follow their targets around the pillars and traps they can lay to slow or freeze their opponents, and shaman have earthbind and grounding totems (and heals, of course).

Mages have blink, which is a depressing and buggy mana hog, and water elemental if talented, which unfortunately relies on bolt-style casting. The ranged freeze is certainly handy, I'll grant, but the long cooldown of the elemental itself forces judicious use.

In this aspect of the game, mages are finding themselves playing Little Brother to warlocks again. "You had your turn, now it's ours!" some warlocks will cry. What they forget is that when warlocks weren't wanted much for raids back at sixty, they still wreaked havoc in pvp. Currently falling behind another class in two major aspects of the game is irritating and somewhat mind-boggling. The kick between the legs?

A healer in pvp gear is nigh impossible to kill as a mage. But wait, there's more.


-Itemization, set bonuses, talent trees, buggy or simply poorly-designed spells, and buff-to-nerf ratio all point in a disturbing direction. Either Blizzard, more specifically the folks that run things from the top, doesn't know where it wants the mage as a class to go, or it doesn't care about the discontented players as long as they keep paying and playing, or it's biased in favor of certain classes, or it doesn't even understand how the class operates.

Compare the T6 sets to our bigger brother, as one of the relatively recent examples of disparity between awesome and just plain asinine. For two pieces, they get a bonus that grants 70 healing for every tick of Corruption and Immolate, and this healing is amplified by Fel Armor. The mage set for two pieces will grant one extra tick from Evocation. It's a bonus that comes into play once every eight minutes. Stretched over eight minutes, a mage will regain an additional 15% of his mana bar if he gets the luxury of standing still for a ten-second evocation. Over that same eight minutes, assuming only Corruption or Immolate is being used, assuming untalented Fel Armor, the warlock gains 13440 health to convert into mana, which is leaps and bounds greater than 15% of a mage's mana bar can ever hope to achieve.

There's also the matter of this unseemly waste of gear value on spirit. Unless you raid in Mage Armor, or you have enough points in Arcane to get that passive regeneration, spirit means effectively nothing to a mage. I will grant that T6 is quite possibly more than I will ever see. These factors certainly aren't encouraging.

Playing With Fire. +1/2/3% fire damage dealt at a cost of receiving more spell damage when it is taken.

Backlash. +1/2/3% critical strike chance. On being hit, you just might receive an instant-cast nuke.

Empowered Fireball. +3/6/9/12/15% of your bonus spell damage is applied to your Fireball.

Shadow and Flame. +4/8/12/16/20% of your bonus fire damage is applied to your Incinerate, and +4/8/12/16/20% of your bonus shadow damage is applied to your Shadowbolt. More damge is applied to two spells.


-That's just the tip of the iceberg, but I can already tell that the TLDR crowd has already rolled their eyes posted their little four-letter quip. I suppose the last thing I'll touch on is the sense of mockery that seems to pervade the gaming crowd. People will demand hundreds of gold for the books that teach the highest-level food and water spells, feeling at the same time they are entitled to the food and water that a mage conjures up.

The refreshment table didn't improve matters. The idea that its distant cousin requires a reagent as well is hardly relevent. One shard for ten stones is better than one shard for one stone. The warlock gets the stone he wanted, and nine other people get the benefit of their own."I had to kill a mob for that soul shard though!" It's not like the monster suddenly became unlootable after having its soul drained...

But hey. Some would rather accept what they're told."Mages are fine, l2p." No. They are not. They're not necessarily the worst off, but they certainly are not fine. Mine is growing mold in his armpits. Occasionally he sees the light of a daily quest. This warlock, though...he's beyond fine. Hasn't been 70 more than a couple of weeks, and I've never had it easier.

Forum link : http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=3773362109&sid=1

Malakali
07-01-2008, 09:58 PM
Got bored half way through

Faylin
07-01-2008, 10:09 PM
And you thought it'd be a good idea to post that here?

Kabraxis
07-01-2008, 10:12 PM
The Wall of Text failed to make my eyes bleed, go seek advice from Harudath

Trupiaczacha
07-01-2008, 10:18 PM
nice post

but well need to adept. nothing we can do. always whit wind in eyes.

Mischief
07-01-2008, 10:48 PM
Got bored half way through
You win at reading; I made the second paragraph.

But my eyes were already bleeding from my new UI so maybe that was why.

Senex
07-01-2008, 11:37 PM
If he thinks that Warlock talents are OP, I shudder at the thought of his reaction towards the Priests when he discovers that, in the Shadow tree, 1 talent point will buy you 8% threat reduction or +3% crit chance for all crittable spells in that tree.

Gumdrops
08-01-2008, 02:06 AM
It's only a wall of text because everyone quoted it on the blizz forums.

Leeh
08-01-2008, 02:45 AM
very nice piece of text, only its going to be ignored by blizzard anyway. I only hope my mage can be half warlock @ lich king.. (shadow mage?!)

Faylin
08-01-2008, 08:14 AM
If he thinks that Warlock talents are OP, I shudder at the thought of his reaction towards the Priests when he discovers that, in the Shadow tree, 1 talent point will buy you 8% threat reduction or +3% crit chance for all crittable spells in that tree.

Talents of hybrid classes will always be relatively powerful, because in order to fullfill their specilized role they need to 'catch up' with the native dps/heal/tank classes.

Trupiaczacha
08-01-2008, 09:31 AM
Talents of hybrid classes will always be relatively powerful, because in order to fullfill their specilized role they need to 'catch up' with the native dps/heal/tank classes.

its normal. and it should be so.

but this post whot we all talk about is not about hybrids.

He do tuch some importen things about mages / warlcoks situation. they are in 99% true. but thats how game go... classes that have moste players base dates will always be "less care" be blizzard. They prolly think -"many ppl play mages they fine" whot can we do.... just Accommodate...

Faylin
08-01-2008, 11:51 AM
Although on paper his analysis seems right, reality doesn't show this imbalance, in my opinion. (I'm talking PvE as I'm a PvP nub).
In AoE heavy fights our mages usually still dominate, and in single target encounters they are at least on par with the locks.

So, what's the problem really? (My own lock is still stuck at 61 for a reason. I find them incredibly broing to play compared to a mage)

vattghern
08-01-2008, 12:14 PM
Very constructive post (i mean the OP). Not. So what's the point?

Trupiaczacha
08-01-2008, 12:17 PM
Although on paper his analysis seems right, really doesn't show this imbalance, in my opinion. (I'm talking PvE as I'm a PvP nub).
In AoE heavy fights our mages usually still dominate, and in single target encounters they are at least on par with the locks.

So, what's the problem really? (My own lock is still stuck at 61 for a reason. I find them incredibly broing to play compared to a mage)

well no ofence but then you warlcoks need l2p whit aoe ;)

as i was in Wrath and now in me new home ;P warlcoks just "Eat" mages in aoe.
i rem ashen and his +almost 600-800 dps more on AoE. in ssc. at hyjal i can get over 3K - 3.5k DPS at aoe. but this crazy warlcoks still got 4k or more ;(

in singel. well depends on boss... at wrath at me times it was as you say. i was sometimes better sometimes lower as warlcoks. but now at full t6 etc shit... they just go up to sick numbers.... mages did go up too but not so good as warlcoks saldy.

Valoran
08-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Although on paper his analysis seems right, really doesn't show this imbalance, in my opinion. (I'm talking PvE as I'm a PvP nub).
In AoE heavy fights our mages usually still dominate, and in single target encounters they are at least on par with the locks.

So, what's the problem really? (My own lock is still stuck at 61 for a reason. I find them incredibly broing to play compared to a mage)
Well, his arguements aren't really that well thought out tbh. Spirit is far from useless with it giving more mana from evoc(important as it's one of the few ways mages have of regenning mana), more damage (about 30 more fully raid buffed than a warlock) from imp ds; mages are much better off than shaman, hunters or druids when it comes to negating pillar abuse; coeff nerf was reversed; mana gems are being revamped in an upcoming patch.

Warlocks do tend to do better on meters though (both in our raids and in general), especially on long fights regardless of aoe or single target.

soulshift
08-01-2008, 01:05 PM
Spirit is far from useless with it giving more mana from evoc(important as it's one of the few ways mages have of regenning mana),

Evocation kinda got changed a while ago? >.>

Valoran
08-01-2008, 01:40 PM
Evocation kinda got changed a while ago? >.>
So it did!

Warlee
08-01-2008, 05:11 PM
mages are fine,
anyway I don't see point of posting it here. Whole text is boring and shows some obvious things which won't be changed, prolly even read by Blizzard.

Scouserlol
09-01-2008, 04:40 PM
mages are in my opinion supported with facts and number crunching,
anyway I don't see the point of me posting. Whole text is boring and shows some obvious trolling

Fixed

Benchi
09-01-2008, 06:15 PM
cba to read when people alrdy stopped half way :P

Warlee
09-01-2008, 08:24 PM
Fixed

Whats the matter ? Why the fuck do you edit my posts, while you have obviously no clue about whole topic. If you try to play , again, smart guy than sorry, you fail.

And bassicaly, all your posts can be considered as spam. You never talk about things that are in a topic. Isn't spamming characteristic for trolls?

Flawless
09-01-2008, 08:34 PM
nah trolling is more

PVP is for pro's as all PVE is scripts that have a set time. Noobs.

Jonneh
09-01-2008, 08:42 PM
Fixed

You're the only person trolling here it seems.

Scouserlol
10-01-2008, 09:51 AM
Whats the matter ? Why the fuck do you edit my posts, while you have obviously no clue about whole topic. If you try to play , again, smart guy than sorry, you fail.

And bassicaly, all your posts can be considered as spam. You never talk about things that are in a topic. Isn't spamming characteristic for trolls?

I obviously have no clue about the whole topic? You posted "Mages are fine" all you needed to add onto that was "l2p" and it would have been a text-book e-kiddy reply.

The point was, the original poster had included number crunching and facts to back up his statement, but then the Great Warlee strolls along and just tells everyone how it is and expects people to listen. If you want to make a statement, back it up and then maybe people will listen.

Use less commas please, you're not supposed to type how you speak. By the look of things you either have a stutter or are ridiculously overweight and get out of breath quite easily when talking.

Muffy
10-01-2008, 10:31 AM
lol'd at the last sentance

Warlee
10-01-2008, 01:29 PM
Why should I even expect people to listen here ? I stated my opinion, mages are fine right now.
You - below average healing priest with spell damage dagger want to question it? You have no clue about class balance in pvp and in pve either. How do I know it? It's generaly your way of posting, you never hit it right. Your all posts, as I said, contain only peronal abuses and spam which are like this only because you lack knowladge to write about topic.

And, by adding commas you add more impressions to text so it won't be some boring shit, like one you post here.


And watch the line, of personal abusment on me ,you cross for the second time.

On the side note, you are trying to correct my English, which is my third language and most likely never will be perfect. How many languages do you know?

soulshift
10-01-2008, 02:15 PM
Sindrath is partially right though. If you say they are fine, at least say why and show some proof to show that the guy who made the "wall of text" isn't right. :p

Muffy
10-01-2008, 02:31 PM
Why should I even expect people to listen here ? I stated my opinion, mages are fine right now.
You - below average healing priest with spell damage dagger want to question it? You have no clue about class balance in pvp and in pve either. How do I know it? It's generaly your way of posting, you never hit it right. Your all posts, as I said, contain only peronal abuses and spam which are like this only because you lack knowladge to write about topic.

And, by adding commas you add more impressions to text so it won't be some boring shit, like one you post here.


And watch the line, of personal abusment on me ,you cross for the second time.

On the side note, you are trying to correct my English, which is my third language and most likely never will be perfect. How many languages do you know?

so you've gone from troll to elitist prick, attacking his gear?
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28322 isint damage and healing last time i checked.
That chars only been 70- for a few weeks, but gg.

Scouserlol
10-01-2008, 02:32 PM
Why should I even expect people to listen here ? I stated my opinion, mages are fine right now.
You - below average healing priest with spell damage dagger want to question it? You have no clue about class balance in pvp and in pve either. How do I know it? It's generaly your way of posting, you never hit it right. Your all posts, as I said, contain only peronal abuses and spam which are like this only because you lack knowladge to write about topic.

And, by adding commas you add more impressions to text so it won't be some boring shit, like one you post here.


And watch the line, of personal abusment on me ,you cross for the second time.

On the side note, you are trying to correct my English, which is my third language and most likely never will be perfect. How many languages do you know?

1. Priest was in greens 3 weeks ago, full greens. So yeh, sorry about my gear... I sincerely apologise. Although it is a healing dagger, with resillience on. Maybe you might want to check your eyesight.

2. I speak fluent Spanish, French and have a GCSE/A-Level in Latin... the language most languages were derived from.

3. I'd rather post offtopic with something humerous than some arrogant, self righteous bullshit. Mages aren't fine at the moment, I know, I have a lvl 70 one (I think you just got owned again?) and while the problems aren't anywhere near what the OP makes out, they do have their problems.

4. I've placed WoW for 2 years now and I'm what I would call a "hardcore" PVP'er, hence my priest having 300+ resillience after it being 70 for a matter of weeks. I know about balance fine. The problem is I'm not discreditting anyone elses opinions, unlike you thinking you're the dogs bollocks.

5. Re read this post over and over, pay attention to points where you've owned yourself.

Warlee
10-01-2008, 02:38 PM
Hardcore pvper? With 1400 rating in 2v2 while being 300 + resilenced priest? Who gets owned?

Geting healing mace takes 10 minutes on AH, that's one thing.

Another is, do you speak now perfectly in those languages? No - you don't, as it's not your native language.

Finnaly last thing. You have mage on 70 mage - does it change anything? Have you ever had a chance to do a high rated arena with your mage? I doubt, at least not on this server.

Sadly, your try to impress me turns into failure.

Oogie
10-01-2008, 02:43 PM
Your try to dsicredit him, impresses me. I didn't think it harder, to dig a hole so deep.

Mischief
10-01-2008, 02:45 PM
When Sindrath speaks, Chuck Norris listens.

Fact!

soulshift
10-01-2008, 02:47 PM
Another is, do you speak now perfectly in those languages? No - you don't, as it's not your native language.

It doesn't need to be your native language to speak it perfectly.

Scouserlol
10-01-2008, 02:47 PM
Hardcore pvper? With 1400 rating in 2v2 while being 300 + resilenced priest? Who gets owned?

Geting healing mace takes 10 minutes on AH, that's one thing.

Another is, do you speak now perfectly in those languages? No - you don't, as it's not your native language.

Finnaly last thing. You have mage on 70 mage - does it change anything? Have you ever had a chance to do a high rated arena with your mage? I doubt, at least not on this server.

Sadly, your try to impress me turns into failure.

What a shame said Dagger is BoE and an upgrade from the Essence Focuser (I assume that's what you're talking about)

My arena ratings are poor, granted. I didn't say I was hardcore on the Priest, although it is AV exhalted already, but I have been a hardcore PVP'ers during my whole WoW career on different classes. I'm learning though, and we're getting better each week (team mates gear could also be better) so watch this space <3

When I said fluently... I meant fluently, like perfect, flawless. Obviously I don't speak Latin...

You're boring me now and I think we're running the risk of boring everyone else by now, so I'll leave it :)

Taurusos
10-01-2008, 02:50 PM
Shit is more to the point when me and "full contact" go one on one tbh.

either that or Ebaysindrath is losing his magic

/Tau

Scouserlol
10-01-2008, 02:53 PM
Fuck Tau, you been taking English lessons from Warlee? I didn't understand a fuckin word!

Warlee
10-01-2008, 03:04 PM
I think we're running the risk of boring everyone else by now, so I'll leave it
On this one I could agree. I got bored around 2-3 pages ago. I won't comment now your last post as i'm not up for another "goingtonowhere" discussion. My points still remain though.

Scouserlol
10-01-2008, 03:07 PM
On this one I could agree. I got bored around 2-3 pages ago. I won't comment now your last post as i'm not up for another "goingtonowhere" discussion. My points still remain though.

No, they really don't. Bye mate! x

Muffy
10-01-2008, 03:07 PM
Nerf Mages!

Taurusos
10-01-2008, 03:09 PM
No, they really don't.

Can you kindly give us your life resumé as you usually do when someone get into full contact with you?

How many kids you got
What sports you do
How many languages you know off
When did you study latin
How do you and Gundcunt do full contact?

/Tau

Warlee
10-01-2008, 03:13 PM
No, they really don't. Bye mate! x

Yes, you obviously know better(as always). I wish you could be right. To sum up mages, I'd say less discussing about them, more doing pvp.


edit: about dagger, I misslooked , admiting my fault here ;p

Muffy
10-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Shaun edited his post...PUSSY!

Mischief
10-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Ooh, I love quizes! /clap /clap

How many kids you got 2
What sports you do sports? er.... none?
How many languages you know off I know of hundreds but only speak one
When did you study latin I went to a dance class once but I wasn't very good
How do you and Gundcunt do full contact? With a hardon collider

Scouserlol
10-01-2008, 03:27 PM
Can you kindly give us your life resumé as you usually do when someone get into full contact with you?

How many kids you got: 0
What sports you do: Muay Thai, Greco Roman Wrestling, Brazillian Jui Jitsu
How many languages you know off: I know of about 20, I speak/know 3
When did you study latin: In school and College
How do you and Gundcunt do full contact?: We don't, we've only met once.
Will you pay me some attention please?: Yes

/Tau

I assume this is my OTD application, I'll expect a G Invite when I log on.

Valoran
10-01-2008, 03:49 PM
Yes, you obviously know better(as always). I wish you could be right. To sum up mages, I'd say less discussing about them, more doing pvp.
Mages aren't the sum of your pvp experience. There's a fuck load more to it than pvp, you might only care about that aspect - but if that were the case you should add an "in pvp" tag to the end of your "mages are fine".

Warlee
10-01-2008, 10:05 PM
Yes, you are right. Here I meant pvp situation ofc.

Phanthastic
11-01-2008, 02:47 AM
Fuck Tau, you been taking English lessons from Warlee? I didn't understand a fuckin word!

Its fun how some ppl always have to attack ppl on their grammar :)

Trupiaczacha
11-01-2008, 10:24 AM
Its fun how some ppl always have to attack ppl on their grammar :)

its like last stand...

you pop it when you have nothing more to say.

Scouserlol
11-01-2008, 10:59 AM
What else can you do/say when you don't understand what someone says?

Mischief
11-01-2008, 11:13 AM
What else can you do/say when you don't understand what someone says?
Racial slurs?

Vegelus
11-01-2008, 11:18 AM
Or simply ignore him. The only good thing You can do with that silly whining cow ;).

Stim
11-01-2008, 12:03 PM
I liked wall of text. Almsot made me cry for little helpless mages.
Wait, not really XD

Oogie
11-01-2008, 12:29 PM
STFU Stim! :(

Muffy
11-01-2008, 12:51 PM
I killed stim ingame, True story.

Stim
11-01-2008, 01:02 PM
wtf with all that Stim hate :<

Muffy
11-01-2008, 01:07 PM
<3

Phanthastic
11-01-2008, 02:03 PM
What else can you do/say when you don't understand what someone says?

Damn, i really dont want to be around you if/when you go on vacation to a country where they dont speak perfect english :)

"Hey, did the monkeys teach you how to talk like that, cuz i didnt understand shit".

Anyway, good stuff.

Oogie
11-01-2008, 02:35 PM
He talks like that to us native English speakers, MM. :P

Hezael
11-01-2008, 03:09 PM
Boring wall of text with few good points. Still i remember the times back at lvl60 when mages came at wlock forums, laughed at us and told us to gtfo from our raids with our shit dps. So i have very little sympathy towards mages and their pve viability. Even so, i have mage alt at lvl68, am enjoying playing mage and i dont feel underpowered. New frost changes were nice and am just loving it.

On a sidenote we have a mage who dominates swstats everytime. Ambrosine can dish out insane amounts of dps and is by far best mage ive ever played with. So its either L2P for me for losing to amby or amby is just a damn skilled mage who can prove that mages are on par with locks when played right.

end of miniature wall of text ;)

Trupiaczacha
11-01-2008, 05:56 PM
On a sidenote we have a mage who dominates swstats everytime. Ambrosine can dish out insane amounts of dps and is by far best mage ive ever played with. So its either L2P for me for losing to amby or amby is just a damn skilled mage who can prove that mages are on par with locks when played right.

end of miniature wall of text ;)



i did raid whit she/him ? you never know. good mage but... well never toped dps or dmg :) and i know it didint change many ;)

Warlee
15-01-2008, 06:47 PM
He talks like that to us native English speakers, MM. :P

Not for all. Most of native speakers can understand 'Broken English'. Either the native speaker is narrow-minded or too sensitive. There is also third possibility which Mightymage presented - native speaker has nothing important to say so he attacks people's grammar, which is really popular for this forum (not pointing anyone).

off now to night ski show !

Mischief
15-01-2008, 07:30 PM
OH FFS STFU!

Let it die!

Jamespope
18-01-2008, 02:29 AM
Talking of good mages ill throw zastaph name in =D good friend good mage dont no how good he is in about pvp tho.

Jethrotull
18-01-2008, 05:51 AM
Your post isn't making any sense. 10g says you're drunk!