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Palados
16-12-2007, 03:34 PM
Well, I doubt many guilds use retri pallies. We historically have 1, who also has decent sets of healing/tanking gear. But I doubt I would recruit one extra for raiding. For additional blessing tankadin is better. And retridin provides only raid and not group buffs so one is enough.




Edit:
This post and those that follow were originally a response to this thread (http://www.shadowsongeurope.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19773)

Palados
16-12-2007, 03:39 PM
His dps is about 20-50% lower (was even more before gearing up in T5 content) than rogues DPS and about 10-15% lower than 2H raiding warrior (yes, we have such species too). However funny thing is that his DPS is always around 550-600, while say rogue dps varies from 700 to 1100 depending on bosses, according to latest month wws logs.

Marcuk
16-12-2007, 03:57 PM
His dps is about 20-50% lower (was even more before gearing up in T5 content) than rogues DPS and about 10-15% lower than 2H raiding warrior (yes, we have such species too). However funny thing is that his DPS is always around 550-600, while say rogue dps varies from 700 to 1100 depending on bosses, according to latest month wws logs.

Isnt this just most likely because "some" of the ret paladins dps comes from "Spells" i say spells but judgements / CS etc (Most maybe white damage but theres still a hefty amount made up by spells). A rogues dps is going to be effected by the amount of armor a mob has where as spells just go through armor.

Just a thought :)

Palados
16-12-2007, 07:52 PM
Aye, this is one reason. another is that he ALWAYS is out of melee group buffs (CS/hunter buffs, druid crit buff etc) while other melee are sometimes in melee oriented groups and sometimes out. I think in a proper group he would have 600-650 DPS, but that would leave one rogue or other physical dps out of buffs.

kris
18-12-2007, 10:10 AM
A retribution paladin has about 90% of a rogue damage, provides raid and group buffs. What's more, he scales much more than rogues from being in the melee group. If you switch out a rogue for a retri paladin you're effectively increasing raid dps by a substantial amount.

Muffy
18-12-2007, 10:16 AM
Naha in Sotf did 900-1100 Dps himself. in arena gear.

Ashym
18-12-2007, 10:20 AM
A retribution paladin has about 90% of a rogue damage, provides raid and group buffs. What's more, he scales much more than rogues from being in the melee group. If you switch out a rogue for a retri paladin you're effectively increasing raid dps by a substantial amount.

Some proof? WWS reports would be good.

Hoshingen
18-12-2007, 10:55 AM
Lolret

Palados
18-12-2007, 11:33 AM
Well, retri is good in burst DPS. But, sorry, I really doubt that in arena gear you would have 1100 DPS against any boss in 25man. Dunno about trash or undead mobs in Kara (there it is possible due to exorcism I think). I can bet for 1k gold - I will give it to you if you will show me at least consistent 1k DPS for any 25man boss in ssc/tk with arena gear and weps.

Palados
18-12-2007, 11:40 AM
A retribution paladin has about 90% of a rogue damage, provides raid and group buffs. What's more, he scales much more than rogues from being in the melee group. If you switch out a rogue for a retri paladin you're effectively increasing raid dps by a substantial amount.

I will try it next time we have Brent in raid. Probably you are right, I never checked it because he is usually out of any melee buffs. I consider 600 DPS in boss fights as enough, considering his 3% crit buff raidwide and 2% damage increase group buff. He is usually together with locks, surv hunter and mage who is out of 'SP/BM hunt/3mages' group. Also he can heal quite fine in his gear applying CS to keep judgements on boss, if needed. Also he is stable in performance and some people aren't, so there always are DPS from 'pure DPS' classes who are near him in DPS.

Hope he willl be much better in MH :D. While analyzing winterchill logs I have seen paladins doing 1200-1300 DPS owning mages and two even peaking 1500 DPS . But on the other hand rogues from that raid groups did 1800-2500 DPS.

Hoshingen
18-12-2007, 12:33 PM
I have seen paladins doing 1200-1300 DPS owning mages
*cough

Palados
18-12-2007, 12:36 PM
*cough


aye, but it's undead boss. And rogues in the same groups still owned palas by at least 20% and some even more. Check for example

http://wowwebstats.com/p5hsnqwrzu2ku?s=902-1081

and

http://wowwebstats.com/o2lpyo1b5yrso?s=1282-1461

Senex
18-12-2007, 12:42 PM
From what I've seen on EJ theorycraft threads, BE retributors are heavily dependent on +haste gear (SoB scales particularily well with haste).

Arthran
18-12-2007, 01:04 PM
Ret paladins are overlooked, as a hybrid i expect them to do 80% of a pure mellee dpser ie rogue. But the nice group and raid buffs they give really help, plus if you run with a ret and Prot pala then the prot pala becomes hapy in the pants tbh.

But i'd never run with more than 1, our happy lil smashydin does well on his own

Muffy
18-12-2007, 01:46 PM
Well, retri is good in burst DPS. But, sorry, I really doubt that in arena gear you would have 1100 DPS against any boss in 25man. Dunno about trash or undead mobs in Kara (there it is possible due to exorcism I think). I can bet for 1k gold - I will give it to you if you will show me at least consistent 1k DPS for any 25man boss in ssc/tk with arena gear and weps.

Naha from Sotf in TK. In the melee group.

and i said 900-1100.
and he had whine herald afaik.

Palados
18-12-2007, 01:52 PM
Can you give WWS link probably? I wanna be sure it's boss DPS over the whole fight. Would be really surprise non T6 content geared retridin doing such damage.

Muffy
18-12-2007, 02:01 PM
No as i dont raid with sotf anymore or anyone ^_^
But i remember bitching on my rogue because he hammered my dps :(

Palados
18-12-2007, 02:05 PM
You sure it's stable DPS over a long run? Since our retridin has close melee stats but DPS on bosses around 600 and it's not like retridins have different rotations to allow different DPS. I have seen him peaking few k DPS by coincidence of few crits/procs/etc but on a long run it always end around 550-650 DPS. I can assume retridin with such gear can have 1k DPS for 0.5-1min if he is lucky. but not 10min long.

Tsarina
18-12-2007, 04:36 PM
http://wowwebstats.com/s5uydglugkzo5?s=3045-3226

Probably won't qualify for your gold, but he had (for some time) S2 honor/arena gear and the mace from RoS.

Stim
19-12-2007, 08:46 AM
Don't know any rets on Horde, though plenty on Alliance. Do we have them in raids at all?

Hoshingen
19-12-2007, 09:24 AM
The problem with Ret Pallies is, they need such immense amounts of different stats, gearing them up for 25 man raiding is a pain.

Thorbadin
19-12-2007, 10:03 AM
Original raids with a retri paladin, mco apparently as well, doubt the rest does atm.
Bringing hybrid classes to buff groups is nice and all, but bring too many and you end up with too few of the real dps classes to benefit from all the hybrids.

Enkal
20-12-2007, 09:51 AM
If I recall correctly retribution pallies can refresh other paladins judegements on a target. Thus if you have 3-4 paladins in a raid group the healers can run in and judge stuff like light and wisdom and then the retri paladin can keep them refreshed the whole fight.

Light, wisdom and crusader up over a 10 minute fight should prove a substantial amount of healing and mana regen for the raid plus the +3% raid crit.

Also I think that retri pallies dont really need that many stats since they gear for crit, AP and haste afaik?

kris
20-12-2007, 02:48 PM
A retribution paladin needs AP and crit, same as an arms warrior. Gearing up is not an issue at all. Make a melee group with shaman, warrior, pala + 2 rogues and watch those 5 top the meters on all encounters that don't require movement all the time. Here's 2 wws reports too:
http://wowwebstats.com/af3mxdb6phnke?s=9735-10198
http://wowwebstats.com/y5wmg6htaojis?s=11772-12259

Senex
20-12-2007, 02:55 PM
A retribution paladin needs AP and crit
And haste!

kris
20-12-2007, 03:01 PM
Well, haste is nice to have too, but AP and crit scale best. Armor penetration is also nice. Point is, gear is the same as any other melee class.

Valoran
20-12-2007, 03:18 PM
Actually, haste has a bigger effect on dps than any other single stat for retridins. Information to confirm this can be found in the following thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-paladin_retribution_dps_theorycraft/

kris
20-12-2007, 04:18 PM
That's true to some extent for BE paladins, unfortunately haste affects only 50% of the dps of alliance paladins.

Valoran
20-12-2007, 11:17 PM
That's true.
fix'd

kris
21-12-2007, 10:28 AM
fix'd
Go play your lvl 5 pally alt :P

Palados
21-12-2007, 03:46 PM
Aye, they 'fixed' SoC procs. Now it has smaller chanse to proc if you have haste, so proc-per-minute rate remains the same. Thats why alliance retridins are screwed, while horde have SoB to play with. There haste rocks (unless fixed too in some way soon).

Valoran
21-12-2007, 06:00 PM
Go play your lvl 5 pally alt :P
Now I understand why you're impressed with 900 dps.

Faylin
21-12-2007, 06:14 PM
Aye, they 'fixed' SoC procs. Now it has smaller chanse to proc if you have haste, so proc-per-minute rate remains the same. Thats why alliance retridins are screwed, while horde have SoB to play with. There haste rocks (unless fixed too in some way soon).

Didn't know that, but that's a retarded 'fix' on itself

kris
22-12-2007, 04:26 PM
Now I understand why you're impressed with 900 dps.
Show me a wws log where you have more in full SR gear and you'll have me impressed.
Anyway, we've hyjacked this thread, someone invite this retri pala to his guild NOW!

Slicer
22-12-2007, 05:19 PM
Show me a wws log where you have more in full SR gear and you'll have me impressed.
Anyway, we've hyjacked this thread, someone invite this retri pala to his guild NOW!

Drama required:

http://wowwebstats.com/62upgtmfa4m1m?s=2810-3156

Owned? I do believe so.

Ashym
22-12-2007, 05:37 PM
Show me a wws log where you have more in full SR gear and you'll have me impressed.
Anyway, we've hyjacked this thread, someone invite this retri pala to his guild NOW!

http://wowwebstats.com/s5uydglugkzo5?s=7959-8223
http://wowwebstats.com/epiuzwdylligq?s=8587-8836

kris
23-12-2007, 11:02 AM
Slicer, my answer was directed at Valoran. Considering I have no idea which character is he raiding with atm, I'd look at the top mage in that WWS log posted, who scores 878 dps. Still, pretty close to 900.
Rieko, posting random WWS logs from horde guilds farming BT for months proves what?

Thorbadin
23-12-2007, 11:54 AM
resistance fights are poo to benchmark dps, mother in particular, someone getting fatal attraction all the time is bound to have low dps compared to people who will never get ported.

Just post some akama/bb/ros/najentus/kaz wws logs I'd say.

Ashym
23-12-2007, 12:31 PM
Proves that I can impress you, as I thought you were talking about any ret paladin, didn't know you aimed it at Valoran sorry. Val plays a warrior who is prot, and even if it wasn't it would destroy 900dps.

Valoran
23-12-2007, 01:55 PM
Slicer, my answer was directed at Valoran. Considering I have no idea which character is he raiding with atm, I'd look at the top mage in that WWS log posted, who scores 878 dps. Still, pretty close to 900.
Rieko, posting random WWS logs from horde guilds farming BT for months proves what?
http://wowwebstats.com/bkeyvtu6tury5?s=9951-10230&a=31
As a prot warrior, I can also manage 1k dps. That was without windfury or heroism (I swapped myself into the melee group when one of our dps warriors was ghosted, so did have a shaman for a small portion of the fight). If you look at the RoS parse for that night, I managed over 1.1k dps in p1, 1.2k dps in p2 (while interupting) and 4k dps in p3.


900 dps as a ret paladin who manages to buff the raid group so much that their raid dps is lower than any of our kills by 1-4k (just taking your mother parses into account for this) or so just doesn't strike me as useful. As thorb says, the idea behind them is nice - you just need enough dps to make up for the dps you lose from the paladins personal dps. They do not do 90% of a rogues damage, seems they do similar damage to a protection warrior - much less "impressive".

kris
23-12-2007, 08:46 PM
http://wowwebstats.com/bkeyvtu6tury5?s=9951-10230&a=31
As a prot warrior, I can also manage 1k dps. That was without windfury or heroism (I swapped myself into the melee group when one of our dps warriors was ghosted, so did have a shaman for a small portion of the fight). If you look at the RoS parse for that night, I managed over 1.1k dps in p1, 1.2k dps in p2 (while interupting) and 4k dps in p3.


900 dps as a ret paladin who manages to buff the raid group so much that their raid dps is lower than any of our kills by 1-4k (just taking your mother parses into account for this) or so just doesn't strike me as useful. As thorb says, the idea behind them is nice - you just need enough dps to make up for the dps you lose from the paladins personal dps. They do not do 90% of a rogues damage, seems they do similar damage to a protection warrior - much less "impressive".
Now you're comparing Mother with Teron, people who know both are aware they are completely different. I expected better from you.
Here's a non-resistance WWS for you:
http://wowwebstats.com/l344rukqv3bvw?s=1392-1569

Valoran
24-12-2007, 12:58 AM
Lets go back to the start.

A retribution paladin has about 90% of a rogue damage,If your best parse was 1900dps, then yes. Retribution paladins can do 90% of a rogues damage. This just isn't the case at all. False. Not just false but a total exaggeration. Comparatively, you would maybe break the top 10 on our raids. Barely out-damaging protection warriors in DPS gear, certainly by no more than 200 DPS.


If you switch out a rogue for a retri paladin you're effectively increasing raid dps by a substantial amount.
Why then, is your raids DPS 1-5k lower in all the parses you've shown than any of the parses CoI have from our first kills to present day? From what I can see, your raids DPS is lower, your personal DPS is lower and from browsing some of your other fights linked to the ones you posted, there are cases where you do 600-900 DPS (with zero heals cast) rather than your advertised 1.3k. 'sup? I thought there was a substantial DPS increase from bringing a retridin along?

Just to make it clear, if 1.3k DPS is the best you can do when you're going all out, in a support group with a shaman (you are the support, you should not be in the dps group since your buff is raid wide), using heroism and a haste potion - then you are far and away from doing anything close to a rogues damage.

Also, your rage parse is buggy. He has more than 2.6 million hp. All of our parses put him somewhere between 3.2-3.6. Logs from multiple people are not working as intended, if you're going to use WWS, use one log - don't parse from multiple sources.

You maybe missed the point I was making, sorry for not making it clear that I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison to specifically your damage compared to mine - merely that retribution paladins do not meet up to the comments you posted earlier on in the thread.

Edit: before it comes to bite me in the ass, yes I am aware of AotC.

Kabhanda
24-12-2007, 11:57 AM
Comparatively, you would maybe break the top 10 on our raids.

My grandparents could get well within the top 10 dps in your raids and they have been dead for years.

Why then, is your raids DPS 1-5k lower in all the parses you've shown than any of the parses CoI have from our first kills to present day?

Why is your raid dps more than 14,000 lower than http://wowwebstats.com/dljvayxr3scmg?s=1-180 yet they happen to have a retri present?


Kris being a shit paladin does not mean paladins are shit. (most are however)

Valoran
24-12-2007, 12:45 PM
My grandparents could get well within the top 10 dps in your raids and they have been dead for years.
You've used that one before, nothing new? You're not a very imaginative troll.
Why is your raid dps more than 14,000 lower than http://wowwebstats.com/dljvayxr3scmg?s=1-180 yet they happen to have a retri present?
Many reasons, but ignoring the logical fallacy making such a connection implies - DPS is so totally subjective to the situation, which is exactly the point I'm making. However your parse does more to illustrate one of my other points, thanks. The rogues in that parse do 2410, 2058 and 2186 DPS while the paladin only manages 1668. 90% of the highest being 2169 and 1852 from the lowest. Putting that retadin in the best possible light against a rogue in the worst puts the DPS difference at over 20%.

Kris being a shit paladin does not mean paladins are shit. (most are however)
Kris might be the best paladin in the world, but he wouldn't do 90% of a rogues damage regardless. All things being equal.

Someone might be very good at jumping, but you won't see them jumping 20ft in the air.

kris
24-12-2007, 01:01 PM
Kris being a shit paladin does not mean paladins are shit. (most are however)

Wipe all that shit from your face, so you might see more clearly.

Valoran, I'm content with doing 90-100% of the damage of the rogues in my guild. I couldn't care less where that would fall in your raids.

Kabhanda
24-12-2007, 01:06 PM
Many reasons, but ignoring the logical fallacy making such a connection implies - DPS is so totally subjective to the situation, which is exactly the point I'm making. However your parse does more to illustrate one of my other points, thanks. The rogues in that parse do 2410, 2058 and 2186 DPS while the paladin only manages 1668. 90% of the highest being 2169 and 1852 from the lowest. Putting that retadin in the best possible light against a rogue in the worst puts the DPS difference at over 20%.

Why then are you comparing dps from their guild to dps from your own? I know full well that simply pulling up two wws reports and comparing the dps is moronic, but as its what you seem to want to do in this thread I joined in. Once again, if you are asking why his raid that has a retridin in it is lower dps than yours, answer why that raid with one in rapes yours in the eyes.

Also as I said, Kris is clearly a retard, the 90% figure is both something he made up on the spot and completely useless as a comparison. The relevant question is 'does a raid with a retridin do more dps (or have better survival, more endurance etc, depending on the aims of the encounter) than one without' (the without is generally assumed (for some reason) to include a rogue instead, but it could just as easily be any other dps class).

You are making no attempt to actually compare the usefullness of different options to a raid, and are just 'trying' to disprove Kris' nonsense 90% claim.

Here is the more sensible stand point: Retridins do not do 90% of an equally skilled and geared rogue's damage. They do however bring enough in terms of their own dps and buffs/debuffs to be of use to a raid.

kris
24-12-2007, 01:54 PM
This thread has clearly gone away from whatever constructive meaning it might have had. The forum lacks any moderation and I have absolutely no intention of talking to people who get a hard-on each time they insult others.

Malakali
24-12-2007, 01:54 PM
Best christmas presant ever.

Valoran
24-12-2007, 02:56 PM
Also as I said, Kris is clearly a retard, the 90% figure is both something he made up on the spot and completely useless as a comparison. The relevant question is 'does a raid with a retridin do more dps (or have better survival, more endurance etc, depending on the aims of the encounter) than one without' (the without is generally assumed (for some reason) to include a rogue instead, but it could just as easily be any other dps class).
You are making no attempt to actually compare the usefullness of different options to a raid, and are just 'trying' to disprove Kris' nonsense 90% claim.

Here is the more sensible stand point: Retridins do not do 90% of an equally skilled and geared rogue's damage. They do however bring enough in terms of their own dps and buffs/debuffs to be of use to a raid.
Would you have responded to this thread at all if there had been no involvement from CoI members? I wonder. Anyway, ignoring your eagerness.

To attempt to quantify the DPS a ret paladin would have to bring to make up for not being another rogue, based on the parse provided.

(2410+2058+2186)/3 = 2218 --First we find the average DPS of the rogues.

2218-1668 = 550 --The DPS difference between the average rogues DPS and the paladins.

There are 8 physical DPSers and a tank there to make use of the judgement, meaning that the 3% crit judgement would have to be worth 68.75 DPS each, excluding the tank (62 if you include the tanks DPS). Since this is theoretical, I should be taking the theoretical max damage from the highest rogue rather than an average, but hey - I don't need to to prove my point. 3% crit is not worth 62 DPS per physical DPSer.

Also that paladin takes a space/heroism in the melee DPS group that one of the other 7 melee could have taken, so the increase in raid DPS is even less than it seems.

I'm ignoring JoW as that can be kept up by a holy paladin quite easily on Teron. Bringing a ret paladin does allow other paladins to spend more time healing (or indeed allow you to bring one fewer healing paladin in favor of a shaman/priest/druid) - but it's generally a dps loss.
This thread has clearly gone away from whatever constructive meaning it might have had. The forum lacks any moderation and I have absolutely no intention of talking to people who get a hard-on each time they insult others.
Sorry, I seem to have totally missed the constructive and meaningful posts you left in this thread. All I saw were epeen wws links to parses with relatively high paladin DPS in a low raid DPS environment.

But you're right, this thread has turned into yet another waste of time.

Palados
24-12-2007, 03:05 PM
Paladin buffs 4 other melee with 2% damage. That is 40 DPS out of 2k. Add that to crit too, as well as extra blessing. Extra blessing means that each rogue/hunter/dps war, aside of BoS and BoK got BoM. Isn't that extra BoM (improved, 264 AP) for all melee/pets compensate retridin smaller DPS? (I am talking about that particular wws, where they have 2 holy and 1 retri).

Valoran
24-12-2007, 03:21 PM
Paladin buffs 4 other melee with 2% damage. That is 40 DPS out of 2k. Add that to crit too, as well as extra blessing. Extra blessing means that each rogue/hunter/dps war, aside of BoS and BoK got BoM. Isn't that extra BoM (improved, 264 AP) for all melee/pets compensate retridin smaller DPS? (I am talking about that particular wws, where they have 2 holy and 1 retri).
In that parse, yes. But for the same reason you can ignore JoW, you can also ignore improved bom as it's not something only a ret paladin can buff, you would have to bring a third healing paladin, though.

Heroism (nevermind totemz) for an additional rogue/warrior/druid etc is probably about even if not greater than sanctity aura.

Elexin
24-12-2007, 08:17 PM
This thread has clearly gone away from whatever constructive meaning it might have had. The forum lacks any moderation and I have absolutely no intention of talking to people who get a hard-on each time they insult others.

You've done some insulting yourself and are as responsible as anyone else for some of the junk in this thread... that means you're in no position to insult our moderation really.
Despite this, I'm a nice person, so just to help you all out I've moved all discussion about retri paladins from the guild recruitment section to the paladin subforums, where you can discuss paladin stuff and spam wws links to your hearts content without filling someones attempt to find a guild with your arguing.

Stim
25-12-2007, 10:29 AM
needs some one-liner for retri.... like:
STFU AND PWN!

kris
25-12-2007, 10:57 AM
Thank you, Elexin, for your unbiased comment. Whatever insult or junk spam that may or may not have happened here has been provoked by the ignorance of people who have to resort to verbal abuse to prove a point. This fellow was looking for a guild as a retribution paladin and several people started bashing him for the sake of amusement. This thread is pointless since the small minority who are interested in retribution paladins already know what they are capable of and the others are not here for learning purposes.

Faylin
25-12-2007, 11:42 AM
Actually, I am. But sadly enough you fail to bring convincing arguements.

Valoran
25-12-2007, 12:32 PM
Thank you, Elexin, for your unbiased comment. Whatever insult or junk spam that may or may not have happened here has been provoked by the ignorance of people who have to resort to verbal abuse to prove a point. This fellow was looking for a guild as a retribution paladin and several people started bashing him for the sake of amusement. This thread is pointless since the small minority who are interested in retribution paladins already know what they are capable of and the others are not here for learning purposes.
So rather than add a meaningful or constructive post (you haven't contributed any to this thread), you add another piece of verbal abuse. I didn't really see anyone bashing the person who started the original thread. Careful where you throw those stones, you might end up sounding hypocritical. Ignorance? kek

Ho hum.

NaHaliel
27-12-2007, 02:37 PM
Righto, first post here - I have occasionally browsed these forums before, but didn't feel the need to register until I saw this thread.

I?ll be the first to admit retribution is a bit gimp, though the recent 2.3 buffs have made it more worthwhile. With that disclaimer, I?m still a firm believer that one properly played retribution paladin in a raid is a worthwhile use of a raid spot, and if you take the time to look at the official WoW forums there were recently several BT-farming guilds out there actively seeking a retribution paladin (and many more guilds who already use them).

It is basically a question of marginal benefit and utility, and it is also a question of what your current raid makeup is like. As someone already mentioned in this thread, the utility alone is not worth a raid spot if the paladin is not pulling out competitive dps, so:

Premise #1: A retribution paladin must be in a melee group, period. Ideally this would include an enhancement (or failing that, resto dropping WF/SoE) shaman, dps warrior keeping up battleshout and a feral druid for the crit, but generally 2 out of those 3 will do. Shaman is the biggest dps enhancer, so if by chance you have all 3 classes I have mentioned, but more melee dps than can actually fit into the group, the druid is fine to go in another group as he/she is not benefiting from WF anyway, and total raid dps will be much higher with the paladin getting WF and providing +2% damage to melee group than the druid providing 5% crit and the paladin stuck somewhere in caster group.

What this effectively means is that if you already have 3 100% attendance rogues pulling 1.5k dps on all bossfights, then it is probably not worth taking a retribution paladin if you?ll just stick him with the mages ? dps will suck, and you?ll wonder why you even bothered. What it also means, most importantly, is if your guild is looking for a melee dps spot, a retribution paladin will probably be a better choice than recruiting another rogue who is a net consumer of buffs, but provides no utility beyond that.

Premise #2: The retribution paladin must be well-geared. This applies to all classes, of course, but retribution dps scales well only from a certain point, so 1.5-1.6k AP and 25% crit is the bare minimum you should be looking at to give a retribution paladin an entry-level raiding spot, and this is at the very low end. As a reference point, I?m now sitting at around 1.9k AP/30% crit unbuffed in raiding gear, with crusader trinket that builds up an extra 120 AP during a bossfight. This basically goes well over 3k raid-buffed with BoM/BS/UR if it?s available, and crit goes closer to 35-40% with MotW/BoK/LotP

SotF is currently lacking an enhancement shaman, however, as mentioned earlier in this thread, when 2.3 hit I was able to sustain 1k dps single-target with a resto shaman dropping WF. Not mind-boggling, but bear in mind this is basically entry-level T5 content, with me sporting pretty much only arena gear and a Stormherald. Please link me a WWS where that would be considered embarrassing for a guild starting T5 content, and I?ll eat my socks.

Retribution utility.

1. Blessings and healing setup flexibility. While I have no personal view on this, as we are not yet advanced into T6 content, apparently due to a large amount of AoE damage, holy paladin healing is actually slightly inferior in the endgame, and an extra resto shaman or druid would apparently generally be better. At the same time, you want 3-4 paladins in any raid for blessings, so having one of them be retribution affords you the means to vary healing setup. More precisely, you want AT LEAST 3 blessings (BoS, BoK, and BoM/BoW), and if by chance you have 3 healing paladins, then an additional BoL on all would increase their healing throughput (optional, but nice to have). This, in combination with #2 and to a lower extent #3 below is essentially the reason BT-farming guilds like retribution paladins.

2. Judgement maintenance. With a hit-capped paladin, having 100% uptime of JoL, JoW and JotC on all bosses is pretty much guaranteed. Ask all your ranged dps how much they love JoW, hunters and mages especially (adds anywhere between 150 and 250 mp5 per person depending on class and build). Ask your rogues how much they like JoL on fights with AoE damage.

Yes, on some fights you can maybe have your paladins try to run in and rejudge every 20 secs. On some fights you simply cannot without creating extra risks. When those 5-10k hits on tank are coming in, your most efficient single-target healers should be focused on just that ? healing. Distracting them to rejudge is creating an unnecessary burst damage spike risk you don?t want to take.

3. Damage utility. ?Small, but adds up.? 3% raid-wide crit through judgement of the crusader may not sound like much, but at 10k+ raid dps that?s still an extra 200-300 raid dps depending on raid makeup. 2% damage to party is also quite marginal, but partially offsets the removal of a feral druid from the melee group.

4. All the nice ?paladin? stuff. And then you get yourself an extra offtank for trivial trash/adds (I dps-tank priest add on Maulgar, Hydross adds, and not afraid to taunt off a clothie on an SSC murlock or something if things don?t go as planned), BoP, LoH (would you rather your have your holy paladin with 10k mana remaining LoH or the retribution paladin?) Not really an argument for a ret paladin, since obviously an extra holy would give you all this as well, but useful for considering filling out a dps spot with a paladin over any other class.

5. And as a nice finishing touch, a retribution paladin is a nice ?slack check? for your dps. Nothing will push your pure dps classes to pick up their game than seeing a paladin above them on the damage meter. And, trust me, you will, if you get a good one. :)

All of the above only works once, obviously. As much as I love retribution, I would never bring a second retribution paladin to any serious raid, as that would give you no additional utility.

It all boils down to expectations. I will not make a bold statement that a paladin can always do 90% of a rogue?s dps as has been said earlier in here, because that probably means the rogue is not at the top of their game. I?ve seen 3k twin azzinoth parses from rogues on gimmick fights, and obviously no paladin will be getting close to 90% of that with the gear available in game. I?ve also been #2 on damage done on our guild?s first Gruul kill way back in the day, so go figure (this mostly applies to #5 above, and obviously our dps has improved tons since then).

On average, a well-played retribution paladin in a melee group, depending on raid makeup and skill (both his own and that of other dpsers) can expect to scratch his way into top-5 in a 25-man raid, and, to be honest, can you really ask for more? At the end of the day, when you have X dps players, someone will have to be last due to skill, gear difference, spec, and luck, when was the last time you saw 15 people finish a fight with the same damage done? And with the added benefits as outlined above, a retribution paladin staying even dead last of all dpsers would STILL be a better choice for the raid than a pure dps class in that space ? yet, miraculously, all the WWS parses I?ve seen with a serious raiding retribution paladin never have them dead last. The horde guild Blood Legion whose WWS was linked earlier in this thread runs with a retribution paladin that is rarely last on dps, and to give you a point of reference they consistently report the highest raid-dps parses on all WoW bosses in the world.

Competitive dps, 100% JoW/JoL for all your other dps, extra set of blessings, extra damage for raid, extra oh-shit protection with LoH and BoP ? that?s what a well-played ret brings to the table. Don?t knock it till you?ve tried it. Many guilds in T6 content use retribution paladins as we speak, so they must be doing something right.
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Palados
27-12-2007, 02:57 PM
Nicely said, thanks.

kris
27-12-2007, 03:39 PM
Cheers for the nice post, Nahaliel, wish I was as good with words as you are :)

Theleb
27-12-2007, 04:15 PM
Good Post indeed - and also food for thought if I choose to level my horde-side Retradin.

Nice :D

Valoran
27-12-2007, 05:16 PM
First off, nice post. I might not agree with all of it's contents, but I respect that you've put a lot of thought into it. Thanks :)
It is basically a question of marginal benefit and utility, and it is also a question of what your current raid makeup is like. As someone already mentioned in this thread, the utility alone is not worth a raid spot if the paladin is not pulling out competitive dps, so:

Premise #1: A retribution paladin must be in a melee group, period. Ideally this would include an enhancement (or failing that, resto dropping WF/SoE) shaman, dps warrior keeping up battleshout and a feral druid for the crit, but generally 2 out of those 3 will do. Shaman is the biggest dps enhancer, so if by chance you have all 3 classes I have mentioned, but more melee dps than can actually fit into the group, the druid is fine to go in another group as he/she is not benefiting from WF anyway, and total raid dps will be much higher with the paladin getting WF and providing +2% damage to melee group than the druid providing 5% crit and the paladin stuck somewhere in caster group.
Why must the paladin be in the melee group? Nothing gained from being grouped with any of the other classes you would place in there increases their raid utility, only their personal DPS and that which the group gains via sanctity aura - it's not like they need windfury to maintain judgement uptime. Depending on who you have in the raid, a retri paladin is not at the top of the list to be put in the melee group at all, although I would agree with your example of replacing a feral druid. I wouldn't, however, ever give a retribution paladin a spot in the melee group over a warrior or rogue. Surely the idea is to bring the largest increase to the overall raid DPS.

What this effectively means is that if you already have 3 100% attendance rogues pulling 1.5k dps on all bossfights, then it is probably not worth taking a retribution paladin if you’ll just stick him with the mages – dps will suck, and you’ll wonder why you even bothered. What it also means, most importantly, is if your guild is looking for a melee dps spot, a retribution paladin will probably be a better choice than recruiting another rogue who is a net consumer of buffs, but provides no utility beyond that.Right. However high DPS in itself is a very important utility, without which the rest of us would be sitting on our faces looking very silly. Don't play down the importance of killing stuff, nor put too much emphasise on all the bells and whistles that just slow you down. Also, the more support you bring to a raid, the harder it is to try and balance groups and get the most you can out of everyone. Retridins are very specific in their needs and their outputs, they don't really offer very much flexibility at all. If you can guarantee them a spot 100% of the time in a proper support group and run a high number of physical DPSers in your raid, then they're probably as valuable an addition as any other DPS class. The rest of the time? They will underperform when compared to another equally geared/skilled DPS class.

I don't really have time to go through all of your points verbatim under utility, but the main ones that stand out.

Blessings, yes - you do want to bring 3 paladins to a raid (having four is useful if one of them is a protection paladin) however, it doesn't really matter what spec the paladins who provide the buffs are. Just because you have three holy paladins in a raid to provide buffs doesn't mean you're doing something wrong, nor are you only bringing three because you just want their blessings. Paladins are very powerful single target healers and there are very few fights in the game where you wouldn't be just fine with having two or three holy paladins.

Utility - the 3% crit judgement only applies to physical damage, so raid benefit is heavily dependant on how many physical dpsers you have with you. CoI can at times run quite a physical heavy raid (enhance shaman, three rogues, two fury warriors, two feral druids, four hunters and three prot warriors) but there are also times when for whatever reason we just have a 5 man melee group, a tank and a hunter present. Such variation makes a retridin much less dependable.

Paladin stuff - How many times do you need to BoP something? Again, running with a two/three holy paladin setup provides pretty much everything you mention here.

NaHaliel
27-12-2007, 06:34 PM
Finally this is turning into a constructive discussion. :)

Why must the paladin be in the melee group? Nothing gained from being grouped with any of the other classes you would place in there increases their raid utility, only their personal DPS and that which the group gains via sanctity aura - it's not like they need windfury to maintain judgement uptime.

The paladin must be in the melee group for one simple reason ? of all the classes that benefit from WF, retribution paladins and arms warriors (granted, there aren?t many of those raiding) gain the most from it, as WF affects only MH attacks, so 2H users have the highest portion of their damage affected by WF. More plainly, a rogue moved out of the melee group can slap another poison on his WF to partially offset the loss of WF and while that rogue?s individual dps will decrease, the paladin?s individual dps (assuming he is properly geared and played) will increase by noticeably more than the rogue?s individual dps loss, netting a net raid dps increase. This has been theorycrafted to death on EJ, I can try to dig up links.

I wouldn't, however, ever give a retribution paladin a spot in the melee group over a warrior or rogue. Surely the idea is to bring the largest increase to the overall raid DPS.

Precisely speaking from the standpoint of overall raid dps, a retribution paladin outside of the melee group means gimped raid dps, because his individual dps loss by being moved into a group with no synergies will outweigh the dps gain of a rogue moved INTO a melee group at the expense of the paladin. Of course noone is proposing moving the warrior out of the melee group, as battleshout is "the staple" of the melee group.

This is basically coming back to what I said earlier ? if you are already running a 100% stable raid with the melee group ?full?, then it might not be worth recruiting a retribution paladin not because it is a retribution paladin, but because you have a stable group of people that already works well together and it would be improper to remove a committed raider in a raidgroup that works to replace with another to get a 50-100 raid dps increase.

However high DPS in itself is a very important utility, without which the rest of us would be sitting on our faces looking very silly. Don't play down the importance of killing stuff, nor put too much emphasise on all the bells and whistles that just slow you down. Also, the more support you bring to a raid, the harder it is to try and balance groups and get the most you can out of everyone.

Paladin stuff - How many times do you need to BoP something?

High DPS in itself is a very important utility, yes, a point I conceded immediately by saying in my first post that competitive dps is the only thing that can start justifying the presence of a particular retribution paladin in a raid. The rest is just about justifying how much lower you can afford the paladin?s individual dps to be relative to your other dps to consider him to be pulling his weight in the raid.

With that said, Kris' point was that paladin dps IS "high" when specced, geared, grouped and played correctly. Certain T6 paladins are now hitting 1.5k+ dps in BT, and while yes, T6 rogues with twin blades are regularly breaking 2k now, how many of those do you have floating around? Like Kabkhanda noted, it really doesn't serve much purpose to compare dps numbers between raid groups. Judging by the parses linked, if Grant from Blood Legion joined CoI right now, he would be #1 dps on Teron, which doesn't really mean anything given incomparable "farm" periods and overall raid gear level.

And the utility is not just ?bells and whistles?, in my opinion. On new content, control is often more important than dps, and the guaranteed judgements and extra ?oh shit? abilities do just that ? bring an extra lair of comfort that you may or may not need. If your hunters/mages ran out of mana 80% through the fight because there was no JoW up because one of your holy paladins died 20% through the fight, who cares that the rogue could?ve put out 200 more individual dps than a retribution paladin in the melee group?

Blessings, yes - you do want to bring 3 paladins to a raid (having four is useful if one of them is a protection paladin) however, it doesn't really matter what spec the paladins who provide the buffs are.

Fully agreed, the point is that if you have a chance to have an extra resto shaman or resto druid on your healing roster (far superior raid-healing and extra totems for one of the groups in case of the shaman), it is generally a good idea to have one of your paladins be offspec for the blessings, and retribution is a perfectly viable offspec in 2.0 and beyond, which is the only point of this thread. :)

Utility - the 3% crit judgement only applies to physical damage, so raid benefit is heavily dependant on how many physical dpsers you have with you. CoI can at times run quite a physical heavy raid (enhance shaman, two rogues, two fury warriors, two feral druids, four hunters and three prot warriors) but there are also times when for whatever reason we just have a 5 man melee group, a tank and a hunter present. Such variation makes a retridin much less dependable.


Um, there must be some misinformation floating around. 3% crit applies to ALL abilities that can crit. Frostbolts, firebolts, shadowbolts, pyros, you name it. The only damage it does not affect is DoTs, so it?s not as much of an increase for affliction locks, but your mages and destro locks will benefit just as much from JotC as melee does. In fact, JotC is pretty much the only raid-wide dps increase that continues to scale and adds more and more to the raid the higher your raid dps is.


To sum up, the point of my post was by no means ?kick one of your rogues and bring a retribution paladin?. It is ?if your rogue and holy paladin population is dwindling, consider bringing in a good retribution paladin (if you find one) and a resto shaman/resto druid/holy priest instead of one more holy paladin and rogue?, and you will be pleasantly surprised. And if you?re building a raiding group from scratch, a retribution paladin spot is one that you would be well advised to fill.


Also, and perhaps most importantly, at the end of the day, you have to consider individual skill and gear. Retribution is not just bringing up a seal and autoattacking hoping for a proc, which it was back in 1.6 or so. A proper ret dps cycle actually requires focus and cooldown/global cooldown juggling similar to that of a marks hunter, and is relatively easy to misplay ? you have to maintain 100% seal uptime between swings while balancing CS and judgements on periodically intersecting cooldowns and making sure no swing is made unsealed, planning the judgements ahead for GCD and weapon speed.

The class and spec provides the means, but not the result. It is perfectly natural to see retribution paladins outdpsing ?pure? dps classes as has been posted in the WWS in this thread, and so the question is not ?do I want a retribution paladin in my raid?? but ?do I want this particular retribution paladin in my raid, given the other options available to me?? God knows there are tons of clueless retridins running around in BGs in spelldamage gear hitting you for 400, but the same applies to every single class out there as well.
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Theleb
27-12-2007, 10:18 PM
As you've obviously researched the subject extensively - would you mind posting up a few links for further perusal?

(No, I'm not doubting any of the theories or facts displayed above, I'd just to like to gather more information)

Ashym
27-12-2007, 10:45 PM
What the hell is going on here? DISCUSSION?!

Valoran, you're a slut.

NaHaliel
27-12-2007, 11:12 PM
As you've obviously researched the subject extensively - would you mind posting up a few links for further perusal?

(No, I'm not doubting any of the theories or facts displayed above, I'd just to like to gather more information)

The "worldwide drama" started here and ended with a general acceptance in 2.3:

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t10069-retadin_use_raids/

(make sure to reserve a couple of hours and bring popcorn)

The current "authoritative" theorycraft thread is here:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-paladin_retribution_dps_theorycraft/

"Retribution paladin hideout is here":

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/
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Flawless
27-12-2007, 11:22 PM
I've heard that a ret cycle against Patchwerk is pretty awesome. I lol'd so goddamn hard

NaHaliel
27-12-2007, 11:50 PM
I lol'd so goddamn hard

Aye, the thread is pure gold - it started around TBC hitting in February and I think is the longest-running Elitistjerks thread ever, updated daily and lasting until mid-October until it got locked and the other proper theorycraft thread started. :p
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Stim
28-12-2007, 08:42 AM
Naha go! :D

Theleb
28-12-2007, 10:58 AM
The "worldwide drama" started here and ended with a general acceptance in 2.3:

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t10069-retadin_use_raids/

(make sure to reserve a couple of hours and bring popcorn)

The current "authoritative" theorycraft thread is here:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-paladin_retribution_dps_theorycraft/

"Retribution paladin hideout is here":

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

Many Thanks :D

Palados
28-12-2007, 12:01 PM
Nice thread, the theorycrafting one. I knew it's something like this, but never estimated exact numbers:

Chain drinking Super Mana Potions every cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users 122.83 mp5 (Per player)

NaHaliel
28-12-2007, 01:25 PM
Nice thread, the theorycrafting one. I knew it's something like this, but never estimated exact numbers:

Chain drinking Super Mana Potions every cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users 122.83 mp5 (Per player)

Yep, it's pretty sick, and close to 200 mp5 for hunters. And none of these numbers take into account haste, of which there is plenty in T6 content.

I think one of the main problems with retribution acceptance is the fact that all these little things that add up are completely invisible to the average raider. You have a feral druid in a party, you get a big fat LotP icon on your buff bar saying "Your melee critical strike chance is increased by 5%" and melee goes "YAY, KITTEH!11". You have an enh shaman in a party, you see the unleashed rage buff and melee goes "YAY, MOAR AP!11"

Yet sanctity aura tooltip, even when talented, says just "increases all holy damage done by 10%". You get the occasional JoW proc, but until you actually look at the math you have no idea how valuable it is to have up on the boss 100% of the time. You judge crusader, and 90% of the raid probably won't even notice it's there, because and if you by chance mouse over it, all it will say is "increases holy damage done to the target", when in fact you're bringing the synergies of 3 extra feral druids/boomkins for melee and casters respectively without taking up those raid spots.

If the mere presence of a retribution paladin made people receive "Your critical chance of all offensive abilities is increased by 3%" and "Your mana regeneration is increased by 150 mp5" buffs when you attacked a judged target, more people would recognize the actual value of what's going on a lot faster.
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Valoran
28-12-2007, 09:55 PM
Precisely speaking from the standpoint of overall raid dps, a retribution paladin outside of the melee group means gimped raid dps, because his individual dps loss by being moved into a group with no synergies will outweigh the dps gain of a rogue moved INTO a melee group at the expense of the paladin. Of course noone is proposing moving the warrior out of the melee group, as battleshout is "the staple" of the melee group.
Precisely speaking from the standpoint of overall dps, a retribution paladin outside of the melee group does not mean gimped raid dps. Precisely speaking, if the damage gained from putting the paladin into the melee group is more than the damage gained from putting someone else in the melee group, then it would be worth it. It is however, not generally the case. Of course you wouldn't take "the" warrior out in place of a retribution paladin. What about a second warrior? or a third? These all gain more than the paladin would, and would be preferable as would additional rogues. Sanctity aura could just as easily go in another group, a melee group is not the only group which does damage. If you have warriors or rogues in your raid who are DPSing, you should be buffing them over paladins who require no synergy to apply their own. Precisely speaking.
This is basically coming back to what I said earlier – if you are already running a 100% stable raid with the melee group “full”, then it might not be worth recruiting a retribution paladin not because it is a retribution paladin, but because you have a stable group of people that already works well together and it would be improper to remove a committed raider in a raidgroup that works to replace with another to get a 50-100 raid dps increase.
Convertly, if you're not running a 100% stable raid group, a retribution paladin isn't a very smart choice for a raid spot. As I mentioned in my last post, they're very picky about how much support they require to output anything remotely close to proper dps - if one day you don't have a spot for them in a support environment, someone gets shafted. Other classes allow a lot more freedom with group composition.
With that said, Kris' point was that paladin dps IS "high" when specced, geared, grouped and played correctly. Certain T6 paladins are now hitting 1.5k+ dps in BT, and while yes, T6 rogues with twin blades are regularly breaking 2k now, how many of those do you have floating around? Like Kabkhanda noted, it really doesn't serve much purpose to compare dps numbers between raid groups. Judging by the parses linked, if Grant from Blood Legion joined CoI right now, he would be #1 dps on Teron, which doesn't really mean anything given incomparable "farm" periods and overall raid gear level.
The thing I don't understand, is that in fights linked to reports Kris posted, how does he manage to only put out 600 DPS in certain situations without having to cast heals. This is something I've seen happen with a lot of ret paladins, there are certain fights where they just do not compete at all, then a few fights where they manage just fine - other classes do not have the same variation in their performance.

Also, just by the by, I've never seen Grant out damage our top DPSers on a teron fight, so he wouldn't be #1 by any means. :)
Fully agreed, the point is that if you have a chance to have an extra resto shaman or resto druid on your healing roster (far superior raid-healing and extra totems for one of the groups in case of the shaman), it is generally a good idea to have one of your paladins be offspec for the blessings, and retribution is a perfectly viable offspec in 2.0 and beyond, which is the only point of this thread. :)
There's nothing wrong with three holy paladins in a raid. You're not gimped for healing, there's no loss or gain here, it's a moot point really. Spec for the paladin buffing you really does not matter. You could bring two prot paladins and a holy one and it wouldn't change a thing aslong as they'd all talked before hand and made sure their specs covered important buffs. The only important thing when considering paladins and blessings, one should have imp bom, one imp bow and another bok.
Um, there must be some misinformation floating around. 3% crit applies to ALL abilities that can crit. Frostbolts, firebolts, shadowbolts, pyros, you name it. The only damage it does not affect is DoTs, so it’s not as much of an increase for affliction locks, but your mages and destro locks will benefit just as much from JotC as melee does. In fact, JotC is pretty much the only raid-wide dps increase that continues to scale and adds more and more to the raid the higher your raid dps is. Can you cite anything for this? "critical strike chance" and "attacks" are the words used on the tooltip deffinition, by no means conclusive - and it's also pretty hard to quantify crit chance vs. a target due to the nature of crits. But I do know that the spell itself according to wowhead and thottbot only applies one modifier where as other spells which have a two fold effect add a modifier for each. The way I'm guessing the game is coded, physical crit chance and caster crit chance are two totally different things with different flags. Look the spells up on wowhead/thottbot if you want to see what I mean.
The class and spec provides the means, but not the result. It is perfectly natural to see retribution paladins outdpsing “pure” dps classes as has been posted in the WWS in this thread, and so the question is not “do I want a retribution paladin in my raid?” but “do I want this particular retribution paladin in my raid, given the other options available to me?” God knows there are tons of clueless retridins running around in BGs in spelldamage gear hitting you for 400, but the same applies to every single class out there as well.
Sure, if you can find a ret paladin who's a better player than rogue x and the choice is between the two, it's a clearcut case.

However, I couldn't care less about this - my point ignores such variables and is just as clean cut as saying that at the top of the metagame in all cases, other DPS classes would better fill a raid than a ret paladin in terms of DPS. Anything else is far too subjective to build a discussion around.

kris
29-12-2007, 12:19 AM
What about a second warrior? or a third? These all gain more than the paladin would, and would be preferable as would additional rogues.As it was said numerous times WF gives almost double the benefit to 2-h wearers compared to dual-wielders. Also, SoE gives exactly 110% more AP to paladins than rogues. It is, however, possible that I might have missed some variable there, so please provide us with the mathematical proof you had in mind when you wrote that.
Convertly, if you're not running a 100% stable raid group, a retribution paladin isn't a very smart choice for a raid spot. As I mentioned in my last post, they're very picky about how much support they require to output anything remotely close to proper dps - if one day you don't have a spot for them in a support environment, someone gets shafted. Other classes allow a lot more freedom with group composition.Yes, I don't think anyone ever disagreed with you on that. I wouldn't bother trying to dps in a raid if I don't have WF in the group. On the other hand, if you have an enh shammie or a spare resto for the melee group the paladin should be the first one to be placed there since he's the one scaling most with that buff.
The thing I don't understand, is that in fights linked to reports Kris posted, how does he manage to only put out 600 DPS in certain situations without having to cast heals. This is something I've seen happen with a lot of ret paladins, there are certain fights where they just do not compete at all, then a few fights where they manage just fine - other classes do not have the same variation in their performance.Please, once and for all, stop comparing different raid groups and different fights. I provided a wws link where all melee chars spent all the fight dps-ing the boss, so a clear comparison could be made. There are too many variables in quite many aspects otherwise. Just for example, I'm almost only auto-attacking on Kaz'Rogal, doing some occasional CS to keep judgements up, since even with chain-chugging mana pots and on 363 SR I lose too much mana and it's preferrable to sacrifice personal dps than suddenly explode among the MT and all other melee ppl.

And last, JoC increases the crit chance of all attacks by 3%, not just melee ones. You can of course make a parse on one of the "unkillable" mobs in BL doing 10k spells with and without JoC if you need solid proof.

NaHaliel
29-12-2007, 12:25 AM
Precisely speaking from the standpoint of overall dps, a retribution paladin outside of the melee group does not mean gimped raid dps. Precisely speaking, if the damage gained from putting the paladin into the melee group is more than the damage gained from putting someone else in the melee group, then it would be worth it. It is however, not generally the case. Of course you wouldn't take "the" warrior out in place of a retribution paladin. What about a second warrior? or a third? These all gain more than the paladin would, and would be preferable as would additional rogues. Sanctity aura could just as easily go in another group, a melee group is not the only group which does damage. If you have warriors or rogues in your raid who are DPSing, you should be buffing them over paladins who require no synergy to apply their own. Precisely speaking.

#1. Where are you getting the idea that rogues get more out of WF than retribution paladins do? As I have posted before, and you have conveniently chosen to ignore, WF is a main-hand proc only. 2H users, by definition, get more benefit from WF than dual-wielders for whom the offhand strikes cannot proc. Unless the rogue is wielding 2xAzzinoth (i.e. about 99.9% of your raiding rogues), the dps gain for a ret paladin from WF would be greater than that of a rogue.

#2. A retribution paladin who is denied around 400-500 dps by being out of the melee group (and, as you correctly point out in your post) no longer justifies his dps spot with a measly 2% sanctity aura synergy and 3% raid crit, as unless you are sporting 20k raid dps, the raid dps contribution from that is likely to be less than that. And that is my point ? if you have no spot for a retribution paladin in the melee group, you probably don?t have ANY melee spots left, so the point is moot, and of course you should not recruit a retribution paladin. A rogue sitting in a caster group would also most likely be worse than an extra mage or warlock, right? :P

Convertly, if you're not running a 100% stable raid group, a retribution paladin isn't a very smart choice for a raid spot. As I mentioned in my last post, they're very picky about how much support they require to output anything remotely close to proper dps - if one day you don't have a spot for them in a support environment, someone gets shafted. Other classes allow a lot more freedom with group composition.

Again, you seem to be twisting the group composition argument 360 degrees depending on what is most convenient at the moment. If you don?t have a free melee dps spot, then don?t take an extra melee dps player at all - this applies equally to an extra rogue or extra dps warrior.

I don?t want to resort to quoting myself, but as I wrote in my last post my point is not that all guilds should start kicking their melee dps to replace them with retribution paladin. My point is that if you have an available melee dps spot, a retribution paladin is currently ON PAR for consideration with an extra rogue or dps warrior, and whichever is actually the more skilled player (i.e. whichever can, in actuality, output more dps in that spot, adjusted for the extra group utility) is the one who should get the spot ? simple as that.

Also, just by the by, I've never seen Grant out damage our top DPSers on a teron fight, so he wouldn't be #1 by any means.

http://wowwebstats.com/s5uydglugkzo5?s=3045-3226

Grant ? 1633 dps

http://wowwebstats.com/dljvayxr3scmg?s=1-180

Vindus ? 1668 dps

http://wowwebstats.com/bkeyvtu6tury5?s=9951-10230&m

Top CoI rogue ? 1528 dps, rest are well below that.

Hmm?

And yes, those paladins? rogues are all well above 2k, but again, for reference, Blood Legion has TWO rogues with 2xAzzinoth, and we all know how well that scales. And we also know that Nihilum with their world-first Illidan kill has yet to get ONE such rogue. See what I did there? :)

There's nothing wrong with three holy paladins in a raid. You're not gimped for healing, there's no loss or gain here, it's a moot point really. Spec for the paladin buffing you really does not matter. You could bring two prot paladins and a holy one and it wouldn't change a thing aslong as they'd all talked before hand and made sure their specs covered important buffs. The only important thing when considering paladins and blessings, one should have imp bom, one imp bow and another bok.

There?s nothing ?wrong? in that it is certainly workable with 3 holy paladins. But as all your posts seem to suggest you?re min/maxing, can you really say you would not rather have chainheal/HoTs and extra totems/heroism for T6 content? And yes, you COULD bring 2 prot paladins as you say. The ONLY point of this thread is that you also COULD bring a ret paladin, and it would be perfectly viable. Retribution is now viable to the point that some T6 guilds are recruiting skilled and geared retribution paladins for raid balance considerations. Blood Legion, the highest raid-dps guild in all of WoW has ASKED Grant to spec retribution because they wanted 3 blessings, but did not want 3 holy paladins.

As for improved blessings, Imp. BoW = an extra 8 mp5 over untalented BoW. 100% JoW uptime = 100-200 mp5 for non-healers. Do your holy paladins provide 100% JoW uptime on all bosses?

Can you cite anything for this? "critical strike chance" and "attacks" are the words used on the tooltip deffinition, by no means conclusive - and it's also pretty hard to quantify crit chance vs. a target due to the nature of crits. But I do know that the spell itself according to wowhead and thottbot only applies one modifier where as other spells which have a two fold effect add a modifier for each. The way I'm guessing the game is coded, physical crit chance and caster crit chance are two totally different things with different flags. Look the spells up on wowhead/thottbot if you want to see what I mean.

Tooltip says ?all attacks?, not ?melee attacks?. It is 3% crit to everything that can crit, feel free to peruse WWS parses with ret paladins or just refer to:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Sanctified_Crusader

(this has been wrapped up into a different talent in 2.3, but still remains the same)

Sure, if you can find a ret paladin who's a better player than rogue x and the choice is between the two, it's a clearcut case.

However, I couldn't care less about this - my point ignores such variables and is just as clean cut as saying that at the top of the metagame in all cases, other DPS classes would better fill a raid than a ret paladin in terms of DPS. Anything else is far too subjective to build a discussion around.

Except raiding is not a metagame. Raiding is 25 real people getting together and squeezing the maximum out of the tools provided to them by their class towards a common goal. And as I have written previously, even in guilds with raid dps superior to that of CoI, retribution paladins never rank last on dps, outdpsing representatives of ?pure? dps classes AND bringing all the extras which were discussed earlier.

And at the end of the day, that?s all that matters. You are not recruiting metagame bots with lightning-fast reflexes to everything that happens in every encounter and 100% optimal dps cycle upkeep. You are recruiting real people who may or may not perform. Should you drop a skilled 1.5k dps rogue for a Down?s Syndrome retadin with Oathkeeper just for 3% raid crit? Hell no. Should you consider a skilled and geared retribution paladin if you have a melee group spot opening? Yes ? and that is my only point. Original has cleared all TBC content with a retribution paladin who is competing quite well on their meters. Does anything else matter?
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Valoran
29-12-2007, 01:32 AM
Top CoI rogue – 1528 dps, rest are well below that.

Hmm?

And yes, those paladins’ rogues are all well above 2k, but again, for reference, Blood Legion has TWO rogues with 2xAzzinoth, and we all know how well that scales. And we also know that Nihilum with their world-first Illidan kill has yet to get ONE such rogue. See what I did there? :)
Just to say that we have had multiple people above 1.7k on multiple teron fights, including a rogue above 2k. If you're going to take one of grants best teron parses, then you should also take ours. Or if you really want to take the piss I can find a teron parse with lower dps than the one posted. Needless to say, my counter point to your point stands - that if grant was in one of our raids he would not make top DPS, not by a long shot.

Original has cleared all TBC content with a retribution paladin who is competing quite well on their meters. Does anything else matter?
If that's all you want to prove, that it's possible - then great. It is. Grats. Retribution paladins do not blow the raids up by being in them, it is actually possible to kill a boss with one present.

The issue that was brought up in this thread had nothing to do with that really. Argue a different point if you like - but your comments dont' point towards you the conclusion you suggest you're making. Instead you make it out to exceed rather than equal worth of another.

I'd be interested to see you theorycraft someone fucking up a rotation or being screwed over by randomness. Theorycrafting implies that everything is averaged out in the event of a proc or simply done to the best possible standard in the case of something like a DPS rotation. You cannot theorycraft if you're stopping to take into account that someone has to combat res or stop to bandage, it's just not practical. So instead you theorycraft the best possible outcome and flag that number as being "theoretical" and that actual numbers will be lower for whatever reason.

I've said my thing. I don't really feel like repeating myself, but needless to say - if you want to continue this, I suggest you post in the EJ threads you linked about such issues. This constructive discussion didn't really turn out to be that constructive at all, alas.

Kris, I was making no comparison between fights. Just pointing out one of your council kills has you doing 600 dps. That's a fight where you do very little other than DPS. Yet you're barely above the tank and have not cast a single heal. This is something I've seen happen a lot - retribution performance is not consistent at all.

Exting
29-12-2007, 01:53 AM
For Those who really cba to read and need a quick summary.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/Stu-Kid/palipost.jpg

NaHaliel
29-12-2007, 02:40 AM
Just to say that we have had multiple people above 1.7k on multiple teron fights, including a rogue above 2k. If you're going to take one of grants best teron parses, then you should also take ours. Or if you really want to take the piss I can find a teron parse with lower dps than the one posted. Needless to say, my counter point to your point stands - that if grant was in one of our raids he would not make top DPS, not by a long shot.

/shrug, I just used the Teron parse you yourself linked earlier in this thread, I was presuming you would chose your best. Grats on a rogue above 2k and "multiple people above 1.7k" - I presume "multiple people above 1.7k" also means "multiple people below 1.7k", so the point still stands that retribution dps is "competitive".

If that's all you want to prove, that it's possible - then great. It is. Grats. Retribution paladins do not blow the raids up by being in them, it is actually possible to kill a boss with one present.

Stawman outburst after a relatively mature discussion?

The issue that was brought up in this thread had nothing to do with that really. Argue a different point if you like - but your comments dont' point towards you the conclusion you suggest you're making. Instead you make it out to exceed rather than equal worth of another.

Except I do not. The only argument was that retribution is a perfectly viable use of a raid spot when properly played, not that it could not be played without or that it is strictly superior to something. The only irreplacable thing in a progression raid is usually a warrior protection-specced main tank, all other roles can be improvised by various classes and the encounter beaten. Feel free to reread my posts if you feel I have implied anything otherwise - I believe I have bolded quite the opposite in them.

I'd be interested to see you theorycraft someone fucking up a rotation or being screwed over by randomness. Theorycrafting implies that everything is averaged out in the event of a proc or simply done to the best possible standard in the case of something like a DPS rotation. You cannot theorycraft if you're stopping to take into account that someone has to combat res or stop to bandage, it's just not practical. So instead you theorycraft the best possible outcome and flag that number as being "theoretical" and that actual numbers will be lower for whatever reason.

Is this coming back to the "metagame" reference? I think I have addressed that, but feel free to disagree.

Again: On average, in all the raid groups that actually have retribution paladins, they are NEVER last on dps. That's called the human factor. Grant is not last in Blood Legion. Kris is not last in Original. I am by far not last in SotF. I would go so far as to say if Kris were to run in a CoI raid receiving a proper melee group spot, he would not be last on the meters either. And on top of that would bring 1-1.5x super-mana-pot-chainchugging equivalent of mp5 to all mana-reliant dps (you have conveniently avoided my question of whether your holy paladins do provide 100% JoW uptime on all fights), extra 3-400 raid dps from JoTC, and, depending on how many paladins you're already running with, an extra blessing. Which, combined, frankly would still justify his spot over your second-to-lowest dps player even if he WAS the lowest. That's all there is to it.

I've said my thing. I don't really feel like repeating myself, but needless to say - if you want to continue this, I suggest you post in the EJ threads you linked about such issues. This constructive discussion didn't really turn out to be that constructive at all, alas.

I do not "want" to continue anything. These kinds of threads pop up all the time on various forums, so I just dropped my 2c worth when one appeared on this one. I don't feel the need to convince you of anything. I know my guild feels I'm pulling my weight. I know Original feels Kris is pulling his. Blood Legion ASKED Grant to spec ret. The times of "LOLRET" are over. If despite all the theorycrafting and discussion that now exists out there, and around a hundred guilds already using retribution paladins in progression content in US and EU, CoI is not interested in one, that's perfectly fine by me. Throw rogues at it until it dies if that works for you. Try a 5-boomkin caster group maybe, /shrug.

Thanks for reading.
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NaHaliel
29-12-2007, 02:45 AM
For Those who really cba to read and need a quick summary.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/Stu-Kid/palipost.jpg

7/10 :)
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Flawless
29-12-2007, 06:20 AM
"LOLRET" are over. They're really not, their worth in raids is <= to other classes, as soon as they start to consistantly out DPS other core DPS classes then the days of LOLRET is over.

Oh yeah, 10/10 for the pic

NaHaliel
29-12-2007, 11:17 AM
They're really not, their worth in raids is <= to other classes, as soon as they start to consistantly out DPS other core DPS classes then the days of LOLRET is over.


Hi. Have you actually looked at any single WWS linked in this thread? If not, feel free to do so now. Thank you, have a nice day.

And no, retribution will never be #1 dps by a long shot, but it doesn't have to be - does anyone expect that from enh/ele shaman, shadow priests, or feral druids? No.
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Senex
29-12-2007, 11:45 AM
If I had a personal retribution-specced minion, I wouldn't put him in the dedicated melee group. No, he'd be in Group 1, providing Sanctity to my tankadin and raising the overall threat cap by 10%.

Theleb
29-12-2007, 11:46 AM
Ah, you have to love differences of opinion - regardless of how well you express your own beliefs someone will express their contrary point of view as eloquently and what remains after all the shouting has died down is very simple - take it, or leave it.

Clearly Retribution Paladins are divisive, but those guilds choosing to use one have peformed at least as well as those guilds choosing not to do so which proves that they are raid viable - endlessly debating after that initial point has been made seems fruitless.

So another question thats very slightly tangential to this one - at what bracket, if any, does a Retribution twink become effective given the horrific scaling that the traditionally twinked classes (Rogues, Hunters) make use of. I was thinking that somewhere around 39 could be interesting...

Backupo
29-12-2007, 01:46 PM
wat is u al talk lol? logik is simply = krest is bester paldin AND is retrituion, so fink this finish diskussion))

Flawless
29-12-2007, 01:52 PM
HI Naha, yes I've seen a paladin out DPS on fights, and get lollerowned on others. Consistency is a great thing.

enh/ele shaman, shadow priests, or feral druids? No. Theres nothing worthwhile that a ret pala brings compared to their other specs unlike the classes you mentioned. Funny how raid groups around the world run consistantly with the groups you mentioned, while ret palas are still a rare sight.

Val has done a good job of debating and mentioning the arguements to the why's and nots.

Senex has also made the best point of a ret paladin by far.

Palados
29-12-2007, 02:39 PM
Hm, only thing that feral cat brings over other druid specs is 5% melee crit aura, no? While pala brings 2% dps aura (as well as extra 10% holy damage for tankadins if needed) and 3% raidwide melee/spell crit.

Well, it's up to raid leaders to be honest. Once we had 25man with 7 palas - 5 holy, tankadin and retridin and can't say performance was that bad. We did usual bosses in usual times. It is the same situation like with tankadins or moonkins. You loose something, you gain something. Like Thorb said, you can bring hybrids till raid wins from a synergy. We don't have moonkin, we have not that many ferals/shammies/SP. So for us retridin fits into the raids, especially since one of our MTs is a tankadin.

Faylin
29-12-2007, 02:41 PM
No. Healing from crit on the party (a lot!), Innervate, Battle res and a very viable tank.
(Meh and a damage increase on bleeds, but thats no big deal)

Druids are much more flexible in their raid role than retadins. If anything, I think they should fight for a spot with dps warriors, if you ask me.

Like already pointed out in this thread, if you can;t fit em in in a melee group, don't bother bringing em. If the choice is, however, between a 2nd DPS warrior, rogue, or retadin, I can see them being usefull.

Senex made a fair point, but then, when is a threat cap a real issue? As a shadowpriest I should know about threat, and I hardly have to hold back.

NaHaliel
29-12-2007, 03:06 PM
HI Naha, yes I've seen a paladin out DPS on fights, and get lollerowned on others. Consistency is a great thing.

Same goes for many classes. There are melee-friendly fights, and there are ranged-friendly fights where mages could get "lollerowned". Don't really see how your consistency point applies. Rogue dps may vary from 2k+ on fights like Teron to 1k on others, no "consistency" there either.

Theres nothing worthwhile that a ret pala brings compared to their other specs unlike the classes you mentioned. Funny how raid groups around the world run consistantly with the groups you mentioned, while ret palas are still a rare sight.

3% raid-wide crit vs. 5% party-only crit from ferals/boomkins + 2% damage to party.

More mana regen for ranged dps than chain-chugging super mana potions.

Extra set of blessings.

All on top of competitive dps. Yeah, nothing worthwhile at all.

And "funny" how "raid groups around the world" completely laughed at ferals and shadow priests pre-TBC, but have now embraced them after the love they have gotten from the developers. I don't know if you've been following, but ret has gotten a huge overhaul since 2.0 hit, most notably in 2.3. There are more buffs coming in 2.3.2 and then in 2.4, as pretty much confirmed by Blizzard. The retribution paladin now is nothing like it was in 2.0, and many open-minded guilds are embracing them now as well, though of course it is not yet as wide-spread as the other offspecs simply because the buffs that finally made us fully viable arrived that much later.

Senex has also made the best point of a ret paladin by far.

If your prot paladin needs sanctity aura to hold aggro vs a BoSed raid where pretty much all DPSers have threat reduction and/or aggro dumps, something is horribly wrong, sorry. Or as Beatus correctly pointed out:

Senex made a fair point, but then, when is a threat cap a real issue? As a shadowpriest I should know about threat, and I hardly have to hold back.

And finally:


Like already pointed out in this thread, if you can;t fit em in in a melee group, don't bother bringing em. If the choice is, however, between a 2nd DPS warrior, rogue, or retadin, I can see them being usefull.


Yep, that's pretty much true atm, hence the "Premise #1" in my first post. I think both myself and Kris have quite openly admitted this.
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Gwynin
30-12-2007, 02:03 AM
Tbh I think it comes down to what your raidgroup started out with, if you had a retardin with you the entire way to your current point of progress then no problem.

If you're going to recruit a new melee dps to your raid group, a retardin wouldnt be your first choice unless he geared to your progress lvl or above it.

Oh and as far as I understand gear is quite a problem atm aint it ?



And just btw, gief more pala tanks ffs I dont wanna tank in 5mans :(

Sethanon
04-01-2008, 07:03 PM
.

Flawless
04-01-2008, 07:07 PM
You had to ;p

He said Reroll and lolret ¬.¬

Sethanon
04-01-2008, 07:38 PM
.

Senex
06-01-2008, 11:40 AM
Senex made a fair point, but then, when is a threat cap a real issue?
For tankadins, it's generally around "everyone has T6" mark. At that point, we finally catch up to warriors in terms of survivability, but start falling behind on TPS against non-Exorcisable mobs, thanks to the 2.3 expertise change.

(Mind, I'm merely retelling the experiences of those successful folks from Maintankadin. My own pally will probably never see anything higher than a 10-man instance, so it's not a real issue for him)

Siona
06-01-2008, 08:37 PM
Just to make a few things clear:

Retribution Paladins are excellent DPS/Support and a great addition to any melee DPS group.
They're easily on par with Feral Druids or Enhancement shammies in most situations. Sadly, it seems to have passed by most players' eyes that there are ret paladins doing better DPS than the average T5 rogue, mage or whatever pure DPS-class you want.
What people need to understand is that just a class choice doesn't gimp you that much.
It is SO much more about the player and his/her skills in combat and out of it(theorycrafting and itemization)!.
And as for the people saying that ret pallies "are good burst damage, but useless in raids", i can only say that, once again, it is up to the player. A player who knows how to manage his mana can always last. This goes for ALL classes, not only ret pallies(though i have to admit i hate having to gimp my manapool by taking warrior gear(solves itself with T6 :P)).
JoW+BoW+chainchugging Super Mana Potions gives enough MP5 for a good player to stay up even in longer fights as a ret paladin.
But we mustn't forget the Support part in DPS/Support. I'm not gonna give a lesson in supportclasses here, but i'd like to remind people that a ret paladin grants 3% crit and spellcrit to the whole raid. That is a substantial DPS increase, seeing as it applies for all DPS characters in the raid, not just one's own group. Apart from that, with a ret pally in the raid, you'll always have as many judgements up as you have paladins(provided they have a brain). If someone wants to go on about the support role, please do so, but back it up with theory please.

A few WWS's to support my arguments on DPS viability:

Mind's first BT run as ret, Gorefiend
http://www.corruption-guild.org/wws/BlackTemple/4-TeronGorefiend/2007-12-19_2305/
As you can see from this WWS, the ret paladin in the raid is #3 in total DMG, with a DPS of 1480, while the other DPS/Support characters ended up as 7, 8, 10 and 14(elemental shammy, enhacement shammy, feral druid, feral druid in that order).

You can check the other fights there too. Mind doesn't do quite as good compared to DPS/DPS classes in those, but still competitive with all the other DPS/Support characters.

Nex at Void Reaver:
http://wowwebstats.com/3scpfckqhghb3?s=8449-8751
Just gonna let the WWS speak for itself.

Zrave at Anaetheron:
http://wowwebstats.com/jjply3uzj2ta5?s=4232-4432
Highest damage, second highest DPS, says it all. Excellent player.

By this i don't mean to say that ret paladins are better than other DPS/Support, just that ret pallies are competitive with them DPS-wise.

This said, i also have to say that naturally, a pure DPS-class will always have a higher DPS potential than a support class. The matter is just that... Very few of players ever get there. And all the way there it is foremostly about the player's skill, not the classchoice.

Now i'm tired.

Oh, btw. I am thinking of rolling a ret pally as horde on SSE.

Bai, thanks and i'll be here all week. Thank you!

//Siona

Cheiftan
07-01-2008, 11:59 AM
i know next to fuck all about ret palas. however we do roll with one.

1. i would agree with the people saying that if you start doing 25 mans with one, theres no great pressure to change or swap him out, and he can easily justify his place.

2. conversely i would agree that if you don't already have one, i certainly wouldn't go looking for one.

3. i have no doubt (and how could i, with the wealth of WWS info available) that rets can pump out good, sustainable dps, in some situations beating pure dps classes. in other situations they may be simply "competitive", and in others may struggle. but i'm happy to agree that they can be competitive overall, if played well.

4. having said that, people who say "it's more about the player than the class", are, in my opinion, missing the point somewhat. if we are comparing classes viability in raids, the player shouldn't come into it. the fact that ret paladins are beating pure dps classes in comparable gear may well reflect well on the player in charge of the paladin, but it also reflects negatively on the players in control of the pure dps. comparisons need to be made assuming that the players in control of each class are equally geared and skilled. which of course makes it very hard to provide evidence to back up your arguments.

but then, like many have pointed out, a raid is not a theorycrafting convention, so it is indeed about the player. if you've got a ret pala good enough to justify his place, congratulations. if not, no great loss really.

Palados
07-01-2008, 07:31 PM
After some testing I can confirm that pally should be in a specific melee dps group. Basicly we have two 2H warriors and a pally. If you put them in one group and get a shammy for FW totem (rough extra 20% crit to 2H-wielders) it improves raid dps by quite a lot more than rogues getting GoA totem. Even 2 2H benefit from WF totem more than 4 rogues from GoA totem, assuming their DPS isn't really sucky.

Palados
07-01-2008, 07:49 PM
P.S. Don't laugh at us having two 2H warriors, we have 2 DW one as well, all more or less T5 geared. Slow progress has its benefits.

Gumdrops
07-01-2008, 08:13 PM
Why would rouges get GoA?

Alverion
07-01-2008, 08:34 PM
Nobody use GoA in melee dps groups.

Thordyn
08-01-2008, 02:01 AM
http://files.coreofinsight.com/public/Thordyn/GoA.png

Cheiftan
08-01-2008, 10:18 AM
good one :)

Palados
08-01-2008, 10:54 AM
Because sometimes physical dps group for us is shammy, druid, hunt (all 3 don't benefit from WF) and 2 rogues. Then rogues go with GoA/poisons. I think empirical rule was lile this, use WF when war*2+rog+pal>2

Valoran
08-01-2008, 11:41 AM
One warrior or two rogues (or more), then you really should be using WF. The DPS gain from WF totam really is that insane.

Taurusos
10-01-2008, 03:12 PM
Slam did 30 % of my dmg last raid
Windfury attack (the extra attack) did 8 % of my damage

For a buff...it is amazing.

/Tau

Problem
10-01-2008, 06:40 PM
LOLret

kris
18-01-2008, 10:18 PM
Now, a very informative link for a change, world top raid dps on Teron:
http://wowwebstats.com/?fight=2414
I only bothered to check fights 1 to 10. From those 2,3,4,5,7,8 and 10 are fights where a retribution paladin is present. Actually the guild taking #2 is running 2 with retri paladins that fight. Says enough what having at least 1 retribution paladin does for raid dps.

kris
18-01-2008, 10:30 PM
Hmm, friday evening, nothing to do at home...... reading random wws reports. World top raid dps on Mother: http://wowwebstats.com/?fight=2410
All guilds in top 10 except the anonymous ones are running a retri pala.
Won't bother you with more wws links, guess the picture will be the same for all fights which are not retri unfriendly(Kaz'rogal anyone? :) ).

Ashym
18-01-2008, 10:55 PM
LOLret

How do you manage to post so little yet be so constructive? <3

I'll see you outside Aldor bank later mister.

Platypus
20-01-2008, 02:42 PM
Because sometimes physical dps group for us is shammy, druid, hunt (all 3 don't benefit from WF) and 2 rogues. Then rogues go with GoA/poisons. I think empirical rule was lile this, use WF when war*2+rog+pal>2

Actually, you should be using WF even if there was only one warrior in the group.

Palados
21-01-2008, 10:09 AM
If he is 2H yes, if DW - not sure

Elth
22-01-2008, 09:25 AM
Retribution paladin gets an even higher damage increase of windfury than warriors. In 25 man raid situations a retri without wf will never be able to compete with the rest of the dps crew. But if given wf, they will perform very well, and taken the other buffs and improvements they bring to the raid they will do enough damage to be worth it.

The hardest thing for a retri aint doing dps, but to fight all the prejustice that follows with the class.

If any horde guilds want to test it out ingame instead of speculating, try msg me, ill gladly show up for a test.

You are also missing a stat when talking about those, a retri needs hit rating aswell, every single miss for a retri is a huge damage decrease.

-recently immigrated blood elf retribution paladin.
Elth (someone took my name on this damn forum)

Tsarina
25-01-2008, 05:17 PM
If any horde guilds want to test it out ingame instead of speculating, try msg me, ill gladly show up for a test.

I wrote a post in this thread a while back, but deleted it because I cba. But we've had a retri pala in Wrath raids and will again. It rocks. I'll go so far as to say that if you don't like retri palas in your raid, you haven't tried it.

Slasheh
28-01-2008, 09:17 AM
'spose at least if you're in PvE we don't have you taking holydin spaces in BG.

So I'm all for this ret pala PvE \o/

Alverion
28-01-2008, 12:22 PM
I wrote a post in this thread a while back, but deleted it because I cba. But we've had a retri pala in Wrath raids and will again. It rocks. I'll go so far as to say that if you don't like retri palas in your raid, you haven't tried it.

Note: Lilskas idea of a perfect melee dps group consists of a feral, enhance, BM, Retridin and himself : b

Kinshara
28-01-2008, 12:55 PM
Specced my paladin retri for a while, hit #1 on some bosses; unfortunately I can't get a decent set of melee buffs every raid, so the dps varies wildly between runs. *sigh*

Edit: I'd say me hitting #1 says more about the other dpsers, but even so it's a decent addition to a raid.

Elth
31-01-2008, 11:45 AM
Note: Lilskas idea of a perfect melee dps group consists of a feral, enhance, BM, Retridin and himself : b

:crazy2:

Give me that group and i will promise that noone would be disapointed with my dps.

Palados
02-02-2008, 10:57 AM
2.4 notes:

* Items intended for Retribution Paladins have had their stats adjusted. Retribution Paladins should see an increase in dps as a result.

Alverion
02-02-2008, 02:50 PM
The common idea atm is that it's referring to S1 and S2 retri gear

kris
03-02-2008, 06:38 PM
Don't see a reason why you don't include T4-6 too.

Alverion
03-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Because it's always been clear that Blizzard really doesn't care about supplimentary melee classes in PvE. Otherwise ferals would get proper scaling mechanics which keep them inline throughout PvE content, shamans wouldn't have to live with silly amounts of mp/5 on their sets and paladins wouldn't have so much spell damage.

The amount of raiding retribution paladins is still relatively low compared to other classes, generally the ones you see are the ones who have always been there and been retribution throughout. Ferals and Shamans far outnumber them as melee support and their gear is crap to non-existant as well. So I wouldn't get my hopes up outside of PvP.

kris
04-02-2008, 10:18 AM
Tbh what is really clear is that Blizzard have stopped trying to make the game better and instead are simply milking the cash cow WoW has become. Thus they simply implement what people in forums want most, trying to keep their player base happy. And apparently paladins are much better than shamans when it comes to whining so their wishes come first. To claim there's any logic or actual thought behind any of the changes is rather wishful and silly :)

Hephaestos
04-02-2008, 04:47 PM
atleast theres something about a more retri oriented retri gear-change in the patch notes.

would love to see enhancement t6 re-itemized to actually be usefull :P

Senex
05-02-2008, 10:17 AM
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g290/senex31337/poster18182067.jpg

Stim
05-02-2008, 01:44 PM
I would like to be able to dent holy paladin hp pool within 15 minutes of combat.

Jamespope
12-02-2008, 11:16 PM
okay i just wanted to ask wrath or any other guild who is nearing the end of raids about what there opinion is about ret in raids as it has been a hot topic this week in guild chat and would just like a good opinion of any who know what there like in end game raids.

as i understand it paladins do 60%-80% of other melee dps but have good buffs for the raid blessing's 3% crit ect... but do there raid buffs make up for there dps over other classes such as a druid 5% crit , tanking, dps battle res. of course i could have it completely wrong and paladins might be able to keep up with other melee for dps.

just some info please thanks :P

Über
12-02-2008, 11:26 PM
Just read this thread? Lots of people from endgame guilds posting here.

Jamespope
12-02-2008, 11:52 PM
my eyes hurt through reading so much tonight but from this thread it started out a discussion about 1 paladin then leading to a discussion comparing mother shahaz to dps and then a tanks and just be nice to let a lazy man have his way to a simple answer because i hate walls of text at this moment :p. because some are saying 90% damage of melee some saying can match and its late and im confused!

Celinde
13-02-2008, 01:27 AM
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, and read the fucking thread.

Elth
13-02-2008, 06:39 AM
atleast theres something about a more retri oriented retri gear-change in the patch notes.

would love to see enhancement t6 re-itemized to actually be usefull :P

They did some changes now, and removed all that spelldamage and added str instead. Did the same on season 1 and 2 stuff, but still didn't add resilience(:rolleyes: )...

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/february/tier6retrib.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/february/tier5retrib.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/february/tier4retrib.jpg

I feel sorry for all the alliance paladins without Sob. I really hope that bliz will rework soc soon. Having a main attack skill based on 2 stats that no sensible paladin has is far off.

(huzzah for Sob!)

Palados
13-02-2008, 11:55 AM
Well, James, for horde paladins answer is clear yes. Especially if you have tankadins in a raid who tank some T6 bosses (like we do). Remember, that druid adds only melee crit, so you either don't move hunters into melee group thus gimping it a bit or not all players get that 5% crit. Pala brings 3% crit raidwise and extra few % dps to his own group. As well as keeps all judgements up and that can be a LOT of mana/HP restored during 10min fight, like archimonde. Extra blessing is quite handy too, if you don't have many holydins in raid. LoH and extra BoP may be a lifesaver sometimes.

Valoran
13-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Well, James, for horde paladins answer is clear yes. Especially if you have tankadins in a raid who tank some T6 bosses (like we do). Remember, that druid adds only melee crit, so you either don't move hunters into melee group thus gimping it a bit or not all players get that 5% crit. Pala brings 3% crit raidwise and extra few % dps to his own group. As well as keeps all judgements up and that can be a LOT of mana/HP restored during 10min fight, like archimonde. Extra blessing is quite handy too, if you don't have many holydins in raid. LoH and extra BoP may be a lifesaver sometimes.
Hunters gain crit from lotp.

Vegelus
13-02-2008, 12:27 PM
Like Val said. Even two times.
It's not melee but physical damage crit increase.

Palados
13-02-2008, 03:06 PM
Hehe, my bad. But once I have asked a druid and he told me it's melee crit, I somehow didn't check this and remembered it as a truth.

Vegelus
13-02-2008, 05:19 PM
Cause anyone remember about hunters and their mechanic, You know.
Somewhat silly that Your hunters never told You that ;).

Ñightrain
14-02-2008, 06:05 PM
They did some changes now, and removed all that spelldamage and added str instead. Did the same on season 1 and 2 stuff, but still didn't add resilience(:rolleyes: )...

You can sit in a bubble while healing/dpsing, got blessing of freedom and blessing of protection to help you and partners in arena, and you feel like you need resi because? ;P If you feel no resi on ret gear makes it difficult for you to win in arenas, then you've just noticed blizz's hint at the fact you should respec holy and stop whining ;)

Elth
14-02-2008, 06:41 PM
You can sit in a bubble while healing/dpsing, got blessing of freedom and blessing of protection to help you and partners in arena, and you feel like you need resi because? ;P If you feel no resi on ret gear makes it difficult for you to win in arenas, then you've just noticed blizz's hint at the fact you should respec holy and stop whining ;)

But I am getting mixed signals from them! They are harder to understand than women..

Putting resilience on season 3 seems like an acknowledgement to the fact that its a needed stat, even for a class that can sit in a bubble and cuddle the enemy for 12 secs(or see it get dispelled, almost before it was cast). But changing the previous sets, which I had and enjoyed, but still not giving them the stat that is a key to survival, also according to themselves, is just weird, well, maybe not weird, but typical blizzard :D

NaHaliel
14-03-2008, 08:45 PM
Interesting statistics:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5286962202&sid=1
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Theleb
14-03-2008, 09:39 PM
Indeed, pretty interesting.

Senex
19-03-2008, 08:57 AM
Interesting statistics:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5286962202&sid=1
When you overgear the content to the point where you can cut down your healcamp to 3-4 healers, but still want to retain the blessings, the optimal solution is to replace some of holy paladins with Retributors.

NaHaliel
20-03-2008, 10:48 PM
When you overgear the content to the point where you can cut down your healcamp to 3-4 healers, but still want to retain the blessings, the optimal solution is to replace some of holy paladins with Retributors.

Not sure what your point is, but a) most of the paladins mentioned are quite well-known and have been retribution since "day 1" in TBC, b) if you actually look at the relevant "record-setting" WWS, these paladins are outdpsing quite a few other dps players in those record-setting parses, and c) the blessings logic applies regardless of progression and has nothing to do with cutting down healers, which was one of the points I was making earlier in this thread.
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Valoran
29-03-2008, 07:34 AM
Pop quiz: can anyone link me a wws parse of any alliance paladin doing >=1500 dps in sunwell?

Cookies if they can break 1.6k.

Thanks!

thurlog
29-03-2008, 08:39 AM
http://wowwebstats.com/6rkmvf1z2w33a?s=13753-14124

NaHaliel
29-03-2008, 10:48 AM
Pop quiz: can anyone link me a wws parse of any alliance paladin doing >=1500 dps in sunwell?

Cookies if they can break 1.6k.

Thanks!

What Thurlog posted.

Top horde on Brutallus is 1750 atm (Seal of Blood, /grumble - but I'm quite certain Alliance is getting it soon, or Seal of Command is getting buffed to be better, this discrepancy cannot persist for much longer).

In turn, I will give you cookies for a shadow priest breaking 1.6k in Sunwell. Thanks!

(Yet you don't seem to be as vehemently opposed to them?)
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Valoran
29-03-2008, 10:59 AM
I'm not vehemently opposed at all. A shadow priests personal DPS does not scale as high as it maybe should and I would be surprised if 1.6k was possible over a 6 minute fight, as people were barely beating that on teron parses with lucky crit rates.

That parse wasn't there when I was looking earlier, but hey - 1600 isn't exactly awesomely high and I think holds to the point I was trying to make. Ret paladins aren't scaling very well currently.

That paladin seems to have all their best in slot gear and they just break 1600 in a fully supportive group (lol6drums). I'll point you back to the earlier comments of 90% of a rogues damage with scaling raid buffs. :p

Ret paladins (alliance certainly) are falling way behind.

Edit: SoB or SoC change would be welcome, I agree with that.


Edit2: just some wws links for horde ret numbers.

Highest rdps was http://wowwebstats.com/jlpjjoyaowsxw?s=1799-2158 with a 1196 dps ret. Highest ret dps itself I've seen is the EJ parse http://wowwebstats.com/ri2zwlgoiyck5?s=2944-3300 at 1751 as you said. When you compare that to the warglaive rogue in the same parse at 2.5k, it's really not that impressive at all. :/

NaHaliel
29-03-2008, 11:27 AM
To be fair, *I* never made the claim of 90% of a rogue's damage. :P The rogue brings no buffs to the raid, and his only utility IS his dps, so quite naturally an optimally-played rogue should be outdpsing hybrids by a higher margin than that. The presence of the legendary warglaives vs. no legendary 2-hander in TBC only serves to exacerbate the difference, of course.

I view the ret paladin as an offensive support class that outputs "competitive" personal dps for the content being done if placed into a proper melee group (i.e. not topping the meter, which would be retarded, but beating several other dps players), that brings 100% uptime on all judgements (extra mp5 for everyone, proc healing (admittedly much less useful), and 3% offensive crit for everyone in raid), an extra 2% damage to his party, trash offtanking capabilities and the versatility to vary healing setup while still maintaining at least 3 blessings.

While I'm competing with rogues for a raid spot, in essence I should be compared to a shadowpriest or an offspec shaman (granted, a much less favorable comparison), that's my main point. And the only point I ever made was that a well-played ret paladin is a viable use of a raid spot at any level of progression - nothing more, nothing less. 90% of a rogue's dps is not the question here. :P
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Palados
29-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Aye, pala dps compared to rogue should be as SP dps compared to pure caster dps. Both are support classes. Also using ret and protpalas allowed us to lower the amount of healers on fights like najentus by 2. It's obvious - if you don't wanna (or simply can't due to numbers you have - our situation) make massive rotations during the run, then few healing/something hybrids are way to go.

When we first did najentus we used 9 healers. On 3rd run we were forced to 6 heal him with retridin as 7th healer. It worked just fine (and on short fights where you don't have mana issues their performance fully buffed is about the same as of other healers with compatible gear). Just let them pick up shammy gear without crit but massive healing and mp5.

NaHaliel
29-03-2008, 11:39 AM
Highest ret dps itself I've seen is the EJ parse http://wowwebstats.com/ri2zwlgoiyck5?s=2944-3300 at 1751 as you said. When you compare that to the warglaive rogue in the same parse at 2.5k, it's really not that impressive at all. :/

I agree that ret scaling is a bit off at the moment, for a number of reasons. But 70% of a rogue dual-wielding legendaries, and doing more damage in the encounter than 6 other dps players, while bringing an extra blessing, supplying extra mana and 3% more dps to the raid, is arguably not that bad either. :)

Alliance is currently getting the short end of the stick scaling-wise, with SoC not scaling with haste, and alliance paladins having to stick to slowest weapons possible, while horde have a wider weapon selection and haste scaling. Hopefully that is being recognized and fixed.
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Valoran
29-03-2008, 11:41 AM
Problem with comparing a ret to a shadow priest specifically is that a mage (or insert dps caster here) say won't output 2k+ dps without a shadow priest, while your melee group will still manage high levels of dps regardless. Shadow priests are the windfury of casters. Ret paladins aren't "required" even if they do give an increase to party (or raid) dps.

Add to that their low personal dps figures, you really are better adding an extra 2.5k dps rogue (not that many people have multiple warglaives).

NaHaliel
29-03-2008, 01:11 PM
Problem with comparing a ret to a shadow priest specifically is that a mage (or insert dps caster here) say won't output 2k+ dps without a shadow priest, while your melee group will still manage high levels of dps regardless. Shadow priests are the windfury of casters. Ret paladins aren't "required" even if they do give an increase to party (or raid) dps.

Add to that their low personal dps figures, you really are better adding an extra 2.5k dps rogue (not that many people have multiple warglaives).

Ironically, the ONLY parse in which a dual-warglaive rogue pulls 2.5k dps is in a ret paladin raid. Small things add up - 3% extra crit for the rogue and 2% from sanctity aura, and suddenly the paladin is adding 100+ dps per person in melee group, i.e. that's an extra 400+ dps he would add just to his own group on a melee-friendly friendly fight, which would presumably justify his lower personal dps. That's completely ignoring other non-dot ranged dps increases, which can easily be in the 50+ per player range.

And while we're not a shadowpriest, JoW is also a quite noticeable mana boost for your mages, hunters and destro locks.

Yes, it's not as radical as the effect of an enh shaman, and yes, a ret paladin is not "required" as such, but again, 2.5k dps players don't grow on trees, and in almost all parses with a ret paladin he outdpses a number of other dps players, so clearly something works here.
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Valoran
29-03-2008, 01:25 PM
Yes, it's not as radical as the effect of an enh shaman, and yes, a ret paladin is not "required" as such, but again, 2.5k dps players don't grow on trees, and in almost all parses with a ret paladin he outdpses a number of other dps players, so clearly something works here.
Just a quick note that in the EJ parse linked, the hunter with 72% presence had disconnected and the two warlocks lower were in the gimp group who had their bloodlust stolen for the melee group (which the paladin was on the receiving end of). The melee group also had a lot more leatherworkers than the group the two warlocks were in.

Just small things really, but down to the raid composition rather than the paladin specifically - had things gone slightly differently the paladin could have very well been last with the exception of the shadow priest and tanks.

And as for JoW, you can look at the bonus mana from the EJ parse - a quick breakdown has the gain as the following for various classes.
mages/locks: 5k
Hunters: 12-15k
enhan sham: 16k (lol)
spriest: 6.4k

Now I'm told that our hunters are fine for mana with a mana tide for most t6 fights and enhance shaman can just wee mana away like no tomorrow and laugh it all back during shamanistic rage.

It's nice, I'm sure - but I just don't know if those numbers are really needed in favor of other support methods.

NaHaliel
29-03-2008, 02:16 PM
Just small things really, but down to the raid composition rather than the paladin specifically - had things gone slightly differently the paladin could have very well been last with the exception of the shadow priest and tanks.


I've never argued this point and have conceeded from my first post in this thread and onwards that from a stand-alone dps potential, the retribution paladin ranks last on personal dps. Unless you can stick a retribution paladin into a nice melee group, it's probably not worth bringing one to raids in the current state of mechanics. Starting from baseline support like battleshout and/or LotP, the paladin goes on par with/above shadowpriests in personal dps, throw in WF and heroism, and he surpasses them more noticeably while providing the extra raid-wide utility (vs. the mostly party-wide utility of the SP) - that's about it.

On JoW numbers, everything also depends on setup. Agreed that the 16k mana for the enh shaman is useless, but in general the picture is such that a JoW alone provides 25-60% of VT benefit per person, but raid-wide, so the actual value of it is of course relative to how many shadow priests and shaman for manatide you actually have in raid.

I'm really not arguing here that a retribution paladin is the ultimate dps machine, one-shotting raid bosses and doubling his allies' performance. We seem to have gotten sidetracked a bit, as the initial question was "can a retribution paladin justify a raid spot?", and I think that, despite all the weaknesses and shortcomings of the paladin class, for a well-played retribution paladin in your typical raiding guild the answer is "yes".

Can you clear Sunwell without one? Yes. Can you clear Sunwell with one? Yes.

Edit: Also, we seem to have switched to looking at parses of top guilds and have forgotten the "educational" value of ret paladins for your typical guild. Nothing brings your pure dps class slackers into shape like posting a WWS of a hybrid laughed at one year ago beating them on damage done. They WILL try that much harder the next time around, simply because the good ret paladins know they have to play at 100% to remain competitive 100% of the time and will set a floor for all of your dps.
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Flawless
29-03-2008, 02:32 PM
/popcorn.

Faylin
29-03-2008, 02:57 PM
while providing the extra raid-wide utility (vs. the mostly party-wide utility of the SP)

I'd like to think that 5% spelldamage taken + 10% shadow damage taken is a bigger raid boost to dps than 3% more crits.

(and no I'm not questioning the overall utility of a ret, I think it mostly depends on what raid composition works best for your class arsenal.)

NaHaliel
29-03-2008, 03:11 PM
I'd like to think that 5% spelldamage taken + 10% shadow damage taken is a bigger raid boost to dps than 3% more crits.

(and no I'm not questioning the overall utility of a ret, I think it mostly depends on what raid composition works best for your class arsenal.)

If you're stacked on locks, it probably is, otherwise probably about even or even the other way around a bit (no effect on melee and hunters, so depends on raid composition as you said). Was mostly referring to the JoW part of utility and the extra blessing there and did not mean to devalue the raid-wide benefit of the SP, ofc. :)
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kris
29-03-2008, 05:47 PM
It is me who made the claim that paladins are doing 90% of a rogue's damage. While in reality in the current high-end raiding, which is Sunwell paladins are falling behind, this statement is theoretically true. When me and my guild made our first kills of Mother we were all wearing T5 and early BT/MH gear, barring a few T6 gloves here and there. At that gear level a paladin is doing roughly 90% of a rogue's damage. The problem atm is the horrible itemization beyond that point. T6 is silly, most people actually wear 2 pieces of it and reduce their dps just for the bonus. Valoran is very wrong when he says paladins don't scale well, they just don't have any dps upgrades beyond RoS. Compare that to all the goodies rogues get (hell, Illidan drops 5 best-in-slot items for them) and it becomes clear how the dps gap is widened to 70%.
Still, as Nahaliel said, 2500 dps rogues don't grow on trees. There's more than 1 way to setup your raid and if using a retri pala, elemental shammy or balance druid works for people, then that's a good thing. Because I'm all up for variety, otherwise we would be playing a game with only 3-4 classes.

P.S. ask your hunters what they think about jow. My hunter's dps jumps immensely when there's jow on the boss.

Valoran
29-03-2008, 10:25 PM
It is me who made the claim that paladins are doing 90% of a rogue's damage. While in reality in the current high-end raiding, which is Sunwell paladins are falling behind, this statement is theoretically true.
I'm aware it was you who made the comment, that's partially why I made mine. It doesn't hold true at all, even for lower levels of gear - unless you have rogues using eviscerate in their cycles and performing hundreds of dps lower than they should be expected to with their gear levels. The 90% comment is stupid and has no backing beyond what you and your guild do.
When me and my guild made our first kills of Mother we were all wearing T5 and early BT/MH gear, barring a few T6 gloves here and there. At that gear level a paladin is doing roughly 90% of a rogue's damage. The problem atm is the horrible itemization beyond that point. T6 is silly, most people actually wear 2 pieces of it and reduce their dps just for the bonus. Valoran is very wrong when he says paladins don't scale well, they just don't have any dps upgrades beyond RoS.
http://armorylite.com/us/feathermoon/draynam

Draynam is wearing three pieces of gear from bosses further progressed than RoS and two items from RoS themselves. But whatever, the scaling comment holds perfectly true because it takes into account the items available. If you want to argue otherwise that's your perogative, but it would lower my opinion of you even further.
Compare that to all the goodies rogues get (hell, Illidan drops 5 best-in-slot items for them) and it becomes clear how the dps gap is widened to 70%.
This number is actually 3 currently, if you take into account sunwell drops. Hat and chest are replaced.
Still, as Nahaliel said, 2500 dps rogues don't grow on trees. There's more than 1 way to setup your raid and if using a retri pala, elemental shammy or balance druid works for people, then that's a good thing. Because I'm all up for variety, otherwise we would be playing a game with only 3-4 classes.
Viariety is awesome, yes. But this game is about min maxing when you get to certain stages and when you look at all the wws parses for brutallus, with the kind of margins for error people are killing him with (i.e. *over* the enrage timer) - DPS is a concern.
P.S. ask your hunters what they think about jow. My hunter's dps jumps immensely when there's jow on the boss.
I did, they said it was wonderful, but also that a resto shaman was enough to keep their mana up for the duration of a fight.

kris
31-03-2008, 08:11 AM
Your response is so full of crap I won't even bother replying to it.

Valoran
31-03-2008, 08:12 AM
But you just did. Thanks for the confirmation.

kris
31-03-2008, 11:07 AM
Yet the whole world except you loves ret paladins in raids, go figure....

Über
31-03-2008, 11:22 AM
Your response is so full of crap I won't even bother replying to it.

But you just did. Thanks for the confirmation.

Talking about fighting with a rapier of witty rhetoric, huh..?

Arthran
31-03-2008, 11:27 AM
Yet the whole world except you loves ret paladins in raids, go figure....

Kris we are talking about the same guy who doesnt take prot paladins. Not attacking Val here, just saying that Val prefers to fully minmax to get what he views as the absolute best dps etc, and as we can see from CoI's progress it obviously works for them. Each to their owna nd what works to progres syour guild is all good

Valoran
31-03-2008, 11:54 AM
Kris we are talking about the same guy who doesnt take prot paladins. Not attacking Val here, just saying that Val prefers to fully minmax to get what he views as the absolute best dps etc, and as we can see from CoI's progress it obviously works for them. Each to their owna nd what works to progres syour guild is all good
Just to clear up any confusion - if there was an amazingly fantastic Ret paladin app, we would seriously consider it despite having a very full and competant melee team. But there isn't, and their usefulness (especially alliance paladins) is highly questionable unless they are playing at the absolute top of their game. Even then, it relies entirely on the other classes you have in the raid and the other forms of support available for your dps.

And as for kris' "whole world" figure, I find that quite ammusing. :P

If it was so clear cut, it wouldn't be questionable at all.

Arthran
31-03-2008, 11:57 AM
horde ret pala's win over alliance indeed :(

kris
31-03-2008, 12:06 PM
Aye, the "whole world" thingie might have been exxagerated a bit, I'm quite certain Valoran is not the only clueless person in the world so there should be plenty of people thinking like him. What I do know for certain is that the top 5 guilds in dps that have killed Brutallus had a retri pala in the raid. And the "progress" card is quite pointless here, there aren't any world top guilds on Shadowsong.
Link: http://wowwebstats.com/?search=Brutallus

Valoran
31-03-2008, 01:26 PM
I verily cannot repond to such a thorough and disarming retort.

Yes, I've seen the parses but that doesn't change the fact that throwing a retribution paladin into our raids would lower dps - and that's even if there was a competent ret available. There is not.

Rets need you to hold their hand and I believe are only made viable with the "Blood Legion" or similar two melee group setups that people are floating around with now.

I don't dislike ret paladins (even if I do hold some less than positive notions about *specific* paladins) and given specific situations, they do now work out thanks to the advent of s3 and re-itemisation of gear boosting their dps (large dps gains over 2.2/2.3 ret dps being discussed earlier in this thread) . I don't however see them as being a positive recruitment choice for any guild regardless of your class balance and I sure as hell don't agree to some of the stupidly exaggerated comments made earlier in this thread about how totally amazing they are. I would love to be proven wrong and to have another option available to improve DPS and strengthen my raid group, but short of kicking 3-4 DPSers currently on the roster, recruiting 2-3 different people all with exceptional levels of gear to setup two melee groups that's just not going to happen.

Arthran
31-03-2008, 01:39 PM
(even if I do hold some less than positive notions about *specific* paladins)

Does that include me? :(

Valoran
31-03-2008, 01:40 PM
Only if you respec.

Arthran
31-03-2008, 01:51 PM
i respec ret some weekends, most days i just put ret gear on and smash things

kris
31-03-2008, 01:54 PM
As far as I am aware this thread is called " Retribution Paladin Discussion", not "Should COI recruit a retribution paladin". Whether such a paladin is viable for your guild or not is something for your own forums, not sse.com

Valoran
31-03-2008, 02:20 PM
As far as I am aware this thread is called " Retribution Paladin Discussion", not "Should COI recruit a retribution paladin". Whether such a paladin is viable for your guild or not is something for your own forums, not sse.comI brought perfectly valid points to the table. If you're really so against my rebuttal of what you have to say because it involves not being valid in a certain situation, then you really need to get out more.

-Hand holding
-Relative worth of JoW
-Raid Composition
-Ret Gearing and Itemisation
-Player Skill

Did I talk about these points in relation to the guild I'm in and my situation? Is this wrong? These are all valid points in a discussion about ret paladins.

Arthran
31-03-2008, 02:34 PM
In an attempt to have valid discusions going here:


-Hand holding
-Relative worth of JoW
-Raid Composition
-Ret Gearing and Itemisation
-Player Skill


-Relative worth of JoW - worth its weight in gold, which is why one of the prot paladins should be keeping it up, or a holypala judging it. if any Ret paladin in a real raiding enviroment ever judges wisdom then there is something seriously wrong. Crusader should be the judgement Ret pala's keep up, and they need it improved. Without it they are gimping their own dps and lowering raid dps, and really lowering their value ALOT.

-Raid Composition - Not to much of an issue, even without WF a well played ret can pull out worthy damage, with it they are alot better true, as long as a ret paladin is in the mellee group its all good (ofc WF is a huge boost)

-Player Skill - is an issue with all classes, trying to find skilled ret pala's is harder only due to the lack of ret pala's in general

-Ret Gearing and Itemisation - not as much of an issue with the 2.4 changes. Warrior gear works well, teir gear is now usefull. Our guild ret pala has no problems with gear. There are ofc items he'd like but since they buffed the teir peices he's a happy chappy.

-Hand holding - Not 100% sure what you mean by this one im afraid

Valoran
31-03-2008, 02:42 PM
-Relative worth of JoW - worth its weight in gold, which is why one of the prot paladins should be keeping it up, or a holypala judging it. if any Ret paladin in a real raiding enviroment ever judges wisdom then there is something seriously wrong. Crusader should be the judgement Ret pala's keep up, and they need it improved. Without it they are gimping their own dps and lowering raid dps, and really lowering their value ALOT.Yeah, I just meant JoW uptime when being maintained by a ret paladin through CS. And as far as worth its weight in gold - you save a warlock 4.5-6 seconds of DPS time through the mana gained by JoW. The only classes to really gain insane amounts of mana through judgements are enhance shaman and hunters, which can be sustained through other support methods. This is what I mean by its "relative" worth.

-Raid Composition: I beg to differ (as do people earlier in this thread), they do need support to be competitive.

-Player Skill: more so with ret paladins however. Anyone can play a midly competitive destro warlock, not so the case with ret paladins.

-Ret Gearing and Itemisation: Yup, this was the point I made a few posts back, stuff's looking up for ret paladins with the recent changes.

-Hand holding: this ties into raid composition in that unless rets have very specific buffs and synergy, they may aswell be replaced by another class. Picky, is the word.

Arthran
31-03-2008, 02:46 PM
my maths doesnt look on it the same way,if our ret pala doesnt have his pet WF totem he still does reasonable dps even if his dps falls behind a little, the dps boost to the raid plus teh threat boost to our 2 paladin tanks more than makes up the spot.

I do agree that its harder to play a ret than it is for instance a mage or a destro lock

NaHaliel
31-03-2008, 11:39 PM
#1 guild in the world:

You recently announced recruitment of an enhancement shaman for Sunwell raiding, usually Nihilum has frowned upon hybrids (given your members' statements on various forums) - are you mixing things up, or what's going on?

Personally I don't think that statement is true. Sure we did not use any hybrids apart from feral druids and shadow priests during the TBC race, but enhancement shamans and retribution paladins weren't that impressive in lesser gear. You know, when we killed Illidan, most of our members only had a few parts of T4 and T5, only one or two people even had a full set. With gear like that I personally don't believe that enhancement shamans and retribution paladins would've been viable if you wanted a good raid. But once they get a full Hyjal and Black Temple set then I believe that they are totally viable and we've been using retribution paladins and enhancement shamans now and then for the last few months. So we're not really mixing things up, we're just using what we believe is the best setup from what we can scrape together with our current members.


http://nihilum.mousesports.com/en/news/523,sunwell_progression__kungen_speaks/0/#comments

Hi.
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Tsarina
31-03-2008, 11:42 PM
#1 guild in the world:


Hi.
They are no more #1 guild in the world than Death and Taxes is.

NaHaliel
31-03-2008, 11:43 PM
They are no more #1 guild in the world than Death and Taxes is.

Nitpicking. :)
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Tsarina
31-03-2008, 11:49 PM
Perhaps. But whether they are #1 or not, they have proven several times they are not the number 1 theorycrafting guild in the world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for ret palas in raids. I just don't like your "argument".

NaHaliel
31-03-2008, 11:55 PM
It wasn't an argument, I gave many arguments before in this thread and don't really want to repeat myself.

However, since D&T came up:

20 February 2008, 19:18

Death and Taxes is currently seeking:

- Druid (Restoration)

- Paladin (Retribution)

- Priest (Shadow)

Applicants must be able to raid 6 nights a week from 7pm Eastern to 1-2am on progression nights. You should have your character copied to both (PvE and PvP) PTR realms.

Exceptional players in other classes are encouraged to apply; however, we do not plan to recruit any Warriors in the near future.

For more Information, please refer to
Recruitment Guidelines: http://www.dtguilds.com/forums/announcement.php?f=5
Guild Website: http://www.dtguilds.com/


http://boards.worldofraids.com/index.php?p=topic&p_id=100790

Again, not an argument. :)
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Stim
01-04-2008, 08:57 AM
Also, we seem to have switched to looking at parses of top guilds and have forgotten the "educational" value of ret paladins for your typical guild. Nothing brings your pure dps class slackers into shape like posting a WWS of a hybrid laughed at one year ago beating them on damage done. They WILL try that much harder the next time around, simply because the good ret paladins know they have to play at 100% to remain competitive 100% of the time and will set a floor for all of your dps.
I liked this one coz it's true. We're having ret atm and when he's topping you can say who is slacking and mock them all away ;)
Not that some hybrids are not overpowered but still :P

Vegelus
02-04-2008, 07:53 AM
Perhaps. But whether they are #1 or not, they have proven several times they are not the number 1 theorycrafting guild in the world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for ret palas in raids. I just don't like your "argument".
Yeah seen their huntards guide. Oh my, serpent sting as base of Beast Master's dps.

Platypus
05-04-2008, 09:24 PM
Yeah seen their huntards guide. Oh my, serpent sting as base of Beast Master's dps.

I thought it said that serpent sting wasn't worth using, I am not sure though

Stunted
09-04-2008, 10:25 AM
Possible ret pally changes coming in WoTLK -

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5780978372&pageNo=1&sid=1#11

Bornakk

We have mentioned in the past that we would like to improve Retribution Paladins in Wrath of the Lich King, we just don't have a lot of specific details to release regarding this right now. We did say we plan on changing how their abilities work to share gear with warriors which will help make it easier for them to gear up though.

kris
09-04-2008, 03:01 PM
So, they'll make gearing up easier, nothing said about fixing the silly faction imbalance still.

NaHaliel
14-04-2008, 06:40 PM
Pop quiz: can anyone link me a wws parse of any alliance paladin doing >=1500 dps in sunwell?

Cookies if they can break 1.6k.

Thanks!

Not to beat a dead horse, and tbh I don't know much about how melee-friendly Brutallus is, but this is yesterday's Anetheron parse:

http://wowwebstats.com/hk2kvmfn3rd43?s=3447-3766

This basically shows what ret is capable of in a melee group in a melee-friendly fight (i.e. WF, BS, LotP and 1 heroism). As you know, there are no gimmicks here, just straight single-target tank-and-spank as far as melee is concerned. Seal of Command, no SoB. Zero tier 6 gear as you can see from my armory (though I might be logged out in pvp gear), just a mix of t5 pve and s3 arena gear. Second Anetheron kill ever.

If that is not competitive at this gear/progression level, I don't know what your expectations are. Again, I don't know how melee-friendly Brutallus is, but I don't see how this number could not be sustained and even substantially exceeded with all the gear upgrades available in MH/BT.
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Palados
14-04-2008, 09:17 PM
You should shoot half of your DPS squad tbh :D or let them play Super Mario. Though it can be completely random with rains of fire, some people may run a lot thus reducing their DPS by quite a bit.

Alverion
14-04-2008, 09:23 PM
It's Anetheron.

Palados
14-04-2008, 09:32 PM
Ah, lol, true. But there ranged swap targets. If you do it in convential way :P. Plus sleep - some may get it pretty often.

Palados
14-04-2008, 09:45 PM
Don't get me wrong - I like retri palas and have 1 in our raids too. But if theorycrafting says they don't have to top DPSmeters and they do, then other DPS slack :D.

NaHaliel
15-04-2008, 05:05 AM
Don't get me wrong - I like retri palas and have 1 in our raids too. But if theorycrafting says they don't have to top DPSmeters and they do, then other DPS slack :D.

There are melee-friendly fights, and there are ranged-friendly fights. Anetheron is melee-friendly and has all of our melee group as top-5 dps. Ranged is having to swap targets all the time, so I wouldn't really accuse them of slacking - on other bosses, the ranking may look entirely different. The only point of the post was to demonstrate that alliance retribution can hit 1.6k in effectively t5 gear on melee-friendly fights.
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Palados
15-04-2008, 09:18 AM
That is true. Also rogues should be more deadly, but I bet your rogue didn't use demonslaying elixier and haste potions. Btw, look at this one: http://wowwebstats.com/thzbyvv652qmy?s=4787-4900 Those 3 melee also have 5-6k dps in the Kazrogal fight right after that anetheron one.

Faylin
15-04-2008, 09:20 AM
With an insane use of buffs gained through mindcontrol yes.

Fact is, 1,6k DPS with T5 level gear is pretty nice. Oh and since you asked Nahaliel: Brutallus is very melee friendly as positioning is concerned, I think his armour is somewhat on the high side, but that's all really.

kris
15-04-2008, 01:51 PM
7700 armor, nothing unusual there.

Faylin
15-04-2008, 03:11 PM
http://www.origin-wow.net/topic.php?action=view&topic_id=1073

With most armour values being either lower or the same, that's "on the high side to me". Higher than Anetheron anyway. Wisecrack.

Valoran
15-04-2008, 03:40 PM
That is true. Also rogues should be more deadly, but I bet your rogue didn't use demonslaying elixier and haste potions. Btw, look at this one: http://wowwebstats.com/thzbyvv652qmy?s=4787-4900 Those 3 melee also have 5-6k dps in the Kazrogal fight right after that anetheron one.
The rogue was using poison on their MH rather than WF totem.

NaHaliel
15-04-2008, 06:28 PM
That is true. Also rogues should be more deadly, but I bet your rogue didn't use demonslaying elixier and haste potions. Btw, look at this one: http://wowwebstats.com/thzbyvv652qmy?s=4787-4900 Those 3 melee also have 5-6k dps in the Kazrogal fight right after that anetheron one.

I understand there's was a mind-control bug that was fixed in 2.4 where you could MC necromancers to give people like 100% haste... I think we all understand that 7k dps is simply not possible with existing game mechanics and gear without an exploit like this - you can check average damage and crits and see that they are entirely in line with what you would expect from a rogue, with the only difference that they had an attack speed which was basically something you would never be able to attain without a major exploit. Similarly, there are like 3k paladin parses on the same bosses, but clearly that is not achievable without gimmicks either. You can even go to the "buffs and debuffs" tab to see it being used, and the number of times it was applied to each player.

P.S. I keep thinking that I should use demonslaying elixirs, but I keep going into Hyjal with relentless assault... /doh.
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Slicer
15-04-2008, 11:57 PM
It wasn't an exploit in any way, shape or form. It's just using existing mobs, anyone could have done it, hell you still can do it. The only difference is that the buffs no longer stack with each other.

NaHaliel
16-04-2008, 04:49 AM
It wasn't an exploit in any way, shape or form. It's just using existing mobs, anyone could have done it, hell you still can do it. The only difference is that the buffs no longer stack with each other.

Ok, to rephrase, we were discussing non-gimmick single target dps potential, and I think we all agree that using the MC haste buff pushes "non-gimmick" off that list and makes the parse about as meaningful as a Curator parse.
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kris
17-04-2008, 01:29 PM
Here's a Brutallus parse showing horde ret pala potential, if used properly:
http://wowwebstats.com/vgu3fydzgyrey?s=7632-7993
For alliance assume 150-200 dps less, still nothing short of impressive considering all hidden dps and utility.

Theleb
17-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Thats some impressive foshizzle - and interesting that a Hunter is on top :)

Ryú
17-04-2008, 04:32 PM
I don't one should try and compare Retri paladin DPS to other melee DPS classes, instead look of what buffs they bring to a raid/group whilst sustaining decent enough DPS, like Shadowpriests.

Tsarina
17-04-2008, 05:00 PM
Thats some impressive foshizzle - and interesting that a Hunter is on top :)It's interesting that the hunter is 200 DPS behind our hunters.

Theleb
17-04-2008, 11:15 PM
That is interesting and reminds me of a post I wanted to make that hopefully you can point some of them at in the hunter forum....

kris
18-04-2008, 09:42 AM
Tsarina, that's totally dependant on what group the hunter is placed in really.

Tsarina
18-04-2008, 10:30 AM
Tsarina, that's totally dependant on what group the hunter is placed in really.
You think? I'll tell Yin to stop placing hunters alone in group 6, 7 and 8 then.

Arthran
18-04-2008, 10:34 AM
thats what i do with Schwick, he gets put in group 8 on his own as a punishment

Harr
21-04-2008, 10:11 PM
Here's a Brutallus parse showing horde ret pala potential, if used properly:
http://wowwebstats.com/vgu3fydzgyrey?s=7632-7993
For alliance assume 150-200 dps less, still nothing short of impressive considering all hidden dps and utility.

7 x Heroism !?

And there's 4 shamans.... how is that possible...

Tsarina
21-04-2008, 10:18 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=45354

Harr
21-04-2008, 11:23 PM
How lame, same name as alliance version of bloodlust...

Err doh.. thats horde side raid too :P (just noticed Seal of Blood and Bloodlust).

Nice dps (on that retri pally) for only 2 bloodlusts.

kris
22-04-2008, 08:43 AM
Actually I was wrong, 1977 DPS, alliance side:http://wowwebstats.com/iu42ncs2zakos?s=3305-3676

Faylin
22-04-2008, 09:11 AM
You're never wrong Kris, and you know it.

Flawless
22-04-2008, 04:41 PM
Actually I was wrong, 1977 DPS, alliance side:http://wowwebstats.com/iu42ncs2zakos?s=3305-3676

gah, he's respec to prot. I wanted to see his gear :<

Slicer
22-04-2008, 06:09 PM
Meh, their rogues suck. That group was double rogue, enhancement shaman, blood frenzy warrior and the retadin. They had double heroism.

NaHaliel
22-04-2008, 06:27 PM
Horde breaking 2k on Brutallus:

http://wowwebstats.com/hlislccvaw62w?s=4286-4646
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Slicer
22-04-2008, 10:19 PM
Heh, Toshiro, anyone remember him?

Same person from Shadowsong.

Thordyn
23-04-2008, 12:24 AM
Wasn't Toshiro in Wrath.. ?

Tsarina
23-04-2008, 06:43 AM
Yes, he was. And yes, it's the same guy. We all remember him very well.

Faylin
23-04-2008, 07:57 AM
Please elaborate.

Flawless
23-04-2008, 09:52 AM
Thread interest rising...

Bleetman
26-04-2008, 04:27 AM
Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
...right. Bonus points for using Hammer of the Grand Crusader, for maximum crusading.

Senex
26-04-2008, 08:55 AM
Interesting. I know that there are some retributors out there who use SotC/CS macros to ramp up their AP momentarily before they land a huge CS, then switch back to Comm/Blood; extremely mana inefficient, but can produce some hideous burst damage. I wonder if the new change will make this tactic better or worse.

Arthran
26-04-2008, 09:50 AM
i read on EJ that if you are in a almost mana unlimited enviroment then you can get a dps boost from using said macro in 2.4.2

Theleb
26-04-2008, 12:28 PM
So make that Amber AND Jark with one of the SP's!

How much of a boost are we looking at?

NaHaliel
26-04-2008, 02:06 PM
So make that Amber AND Jark with one of the SP's!

How much of a boost are we looking at?

I think it will be HUGELY mana-inefficient, not really viable to use.

Bear in mind that this fix is really just fixing a semi-bug - Crusader Strike does 110% weapon damage, but when you have SotC up, your AP goes up by ~500, speed is increased by 40%, but damage range is decreased by 40% to offset the change. Conceptually, this should not affect instants, but it did. Namely, because CS is % of damage range, your damage range actually goes down with SotC up - on live I lose about 250 to min and max damage of the damage range with SotC up - and that is the value Crusader Strike used to use. Now that value is being increased by 40%, taking it maybe slightly above than what you can achieve on live, but actually using SotC before each CS every 6 seconds will drain you of mana in no time and completely fuck up your dps rotation with global cooldowns.

Essentially, there are no paladin class changes in 2.4.2. :)
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Theleb
26-04-2008, 03:42 PM
Well, thats perfectly clear - so what happens if we dump said Retradin into an unlimited mana environment?

Just theoretically :)

NaHaliel
26-04-2008, 05:05 PM
Said retradin will probably screw up his SoC/JoC rotation, missing SoC uptime on melee hits when he has to seal up SotC 1 GCD before CS cd is available, then wait for CS GCD to go away to put up SoC again. That again will probably screw up his dps more than it will increase his CS dps. :) Also said retradin will miss either totems, LotP or Battleshout, all of which are required for his optimal performance - that, or you will have no rogues in melee group, and an SP just for the retradin. Doesn't really work any way you slice it.
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Theleb
26-04-2008, 06:40 PM
Good enough for me :)

Amber
27-04-2008, 03:45 PM
/bonk Theleb

You could have just asked.

Theleb
27-04-2008, 04:15 PM
Aye, that would probably mean logging on tho and tbh I completely forgot ;p

Senex
27-04-2008, 08:44 PM
Well, thats perfectly clear - so what happens if we dump said Retradin into an unlimited mana environment?
Go to Vael's room and test it.

Theleb
28-04-2008, 12:42 AM
While thats not a bad idea.....I'd rather bleach my eyes than go back there :)

Btw, "Tower of Fools" - nice PO Box ^^

Arthran
23-05-2008, 01:45 PM
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t179/verican/TearPolish.jpg

that is all

Djoeneuh
30-05-2008, 11:55 AM
lol @ Arthran
Will have to test those tears out.

Also fun topic, too bad there is too much rubbish in it though :<

Borwin
03-06-2008, 01:39 PM
Naha just got his big stick!

Grats!

NaHaliel
14-10-2008, 10:31 PM
Thread necromancy!

Grats to all the rets who have toughed it out through the good times and the bad (mostly).

3.0.2. incoming, putting an end to silly threads like this. :P
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infneon
15-10-2008, 12:23 AM
Deep, deep down, there will still be a retardin in us all

Firien
15-10-2008, 01:13 AM
Deep, deep down, there will still be a retardin in us all

Especially the one named... Amber.

Amber
15-10-2008, 04:51 PM
Especially the one named... Amber.

Gimme my damn Naxx mace you!

Chou
15-10-2008, 06:44 PM
Enjoy your horrible overpowered moment as you may, but we will in the end find a way to take all of you holy worms down :)

Best regards, Chou.

Adharc
15-10-2008, 07:15 PM
I just encountered a ret paladin with 6k hp in AB, with his Wrath down.

I had 8k.

I died in 5 seconds.

He got the guy behind me as well, then healed to full, and still had 2k mana left.

Chopper
15-10-2008, 07:29 PM
It's fine, ret is finally balanced, and fine at 80, so it's all um... fine.

And the S2 (or less) geared lolrets that couldn't kill a thing before the patch have just become incredibly skilled overnight thanks to a Rocky-style 80s power rock training montage.

Muffy
15-10-2008, 07:32 PM
lol

Ronnyboy
16-10-2008, 08:15 AM
Silence, I kill you! :cool:

Chou
16-10-2008, 10:17 AM
Retri is really really really strong in arenas now.


just ran into one with S3 weap and 4/5 S4 gear with my SL/destro lock

forced him to bubble to not take the fucking wrath, BUT, i didnt know they could get full health with 2 heals // he was playing with a druid heal but these are not hard to destroy as sham elem + destro.

well, druid died, pala bubbled, and then soloed us :S

we met them 3 times, same story.

infneon
16-10-2008, 01:24 PM
First ret "balance" is in!

Divine storm has been changed over to physical damage, rather than holy. Applied via hotfix

Belina
16-10-2008, 04:45 PM
Muhaha the new Retri tree is bloody amazing.
Divine storm = love it!
kinda sucks BoM and battle shout dont stack any more.
new salv buff is kinda funny last for 10 sec on target and 30+sec cd. -.-
Lets say i struggled alittle in Kara finding Seal of crusader from time too time...
Note too my self *Read the damn patch notes better*
instand hammer of wrath thank you blizzard^^
2min seals <3 but i guess thoes can be dispelled now -.-
awell i love the upgrade pallys got now..

Faylin
16-10-2008, 06:42 PM
If you think it sucks BoM and BS don't stack anymore you missed the point somewhere.

infneon
16-10-2008, 07:16 PM
As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play.

Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.

Repentance -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.

Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.

Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13. EDIT: The dot will NOT break Repentance.

Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.

We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.

In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.

I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.

On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.

EDIT: To clairfy the new dot will not break Repentance.

Wow.... Rather than taking the nerf bat to us 2.0 style, they have actually balanced our skills out.

fantasy
16-10-2008, 07:53 PM
Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13. EDIT: The dot will NOT break Repentance.

depends on how long the dot effect lasts. if you would overwrite it everytime it has...lets say 12 secs left, then it would be a big "nerf" :p

Legendfierce
17-10-2008, 09:10 AM
Worst patch WOW history theyve truelys imablanced most classes and made the game boring as fuck

Adharc
17-10-2008, 11:09 AM
Worst patch WOW history theyve truelys imablanced most classes and made the game boring as fuck

I was gonna comment on this, but then I remembered you're a Shaman.

Nyak nyak nyak :P

Muffy
17-10-2008, 11:35 AM
is there much of a discussion to be had? lol