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View Full Version : Sheep to 10.. fair?


Xplicit
24-08-2007, 03:09 PM
Anyone think that there is something unfair about Sheep being classed the same as Fear and therefore sharing the new 10 second rule? They're hardly the same, Fear you can apply and DPS at the same time, so sure, that shouldn't last too long. But Sheeping/Blinding/Seducing you can't damage at the same time, so after they've trinketted the first one... 5 second CC is all your left with where you can't apply any damage. A 5 second fear while still applying Damage is still useful for creating distance and keeping damage up.

Exting
24-08-2007, 03:18 PM
Anyone think that there is something unfair about Sheep being classed the same as Fear and therefore sharing the new 10 second rule? They're hardly the same, Fear you can apply and DPS at the same time, so sure, that shouldn't last too long. But Sheeping/Blinding/Seducing you can't damage at the same time, so after they've trinketted the first one... 5 second CC is all your left with where you can't apply any damage. A 5 second fear while still applying Damage is still useful for creating distance and keeping damage up.

judging by ur points id say it was a harsh nerf..
other classes probably agree with it due to it taking them out of the frame for what they feel a long time.. but the fear + damage point is something to think about, u definitly have an arguement there.

Fleshmissile
24-08-2007, 03:19 PM
it fukcing sux

Xplicit
24-08-2007, 03:20 PM
I would suppose there is arguments to be made for Blind more so than anything as it has a cool down...

Timothy
24-08-2007, 03:23 PM
However hard you complain there is always someone worse off than you.
Try hunter and trap cooldown that are also affected by the 10sec nerf.

Exting
24-08-2007, 03:25 PM
However hard you complain there is always someone worse off than you.
Try hunter and trap cooldown that are also affected by the 10sec nerf.

you wear mail. mages wear cloth.. therefore mages should be able to have more time to keep enemies away.. only fair really.

Timothy
24-08-2007, 03:29 PM
you wear mail. mages wear cloth.. therefore mages should be able to have more time to keep enemies away.. only fair really.

want to trade crappy damage in meele range and dead zone for mail armor ?
... send offers to -> anyhunter@wow.com

Flawless
24-08-2007, 03:34 PM
it fucking rocks, no longer am I praying the damn sheep breaks, and if it wasn't changed it would be imba in arena's.

Q_Q and L2P etc.

You also have some of the best kiting abilities of any class.

Xplicit
24-08-2007, 04:00 PM
I'm not QQ'ing specifically about Sheep. I'm asking opinions on whether it's fair that it and other CC abilitys of the same nature (Blind/Seduce/Ice Trap/Wyvern Sting etc etc) which can't be coupled with DPS are classed as one and the same.

Flawless
24-08-2007, 04:04 PM
Then yes it is, as I think you're looking at it as a 1vs1 situation, take 2vs2 you can basically eliminate someone complete for the game if they weren't nerfed. Heck a well organised mage/warlock 5vs5 could do well with the amount of CC they have.

Timothy
24-08-2007, 04:10 PM
I'm not QQ'ing specifically about Sheep. I'm asking opinions on whether it's fair that it and other CC abilitys of the same nature (Blind/Seduce/Ice Trap/Wyvern Sting etc etc) which can't be coupled with DPS are classed as one and the same.

I'd agree on a difference there ... damage tolerant cc and non-damage tolerant cc could have been classified as 2 different things with different duration.
However if you start there you get into deep water when people start to argue about instantly reappliable cc vs non-instantly reappliable cc (i.e. cooldowns).

Blizzard took the easy way there as usual.

soulshift
24-08-2007, 04:30 PM
you wear mail. mages wear cloth.. therefore mages should be able to have more time to keep enemies away.. only fair really.

And frost mages have frost nova, blink, a water elemental with a root skill, iceblock, a shield to take damage. Fire mages have a blast nova-ish thing, frost nova and blink. That's a bit more than the average hunter has. :p
Hunters have traps, scatter shot or intimidation. Wing clip requires you to be in melee range, which means poisons and hamstring will do the same if they hit. Bringing you back to melee range. :p
Casters can always abuse the hunter's deadzone. Something casters luckily don't have. :p

Mages have enough ways to keep people off them. Especially frost ones. ><
In my eyes the sheep "nerf" was more than fair.

Exting
25-08-2007, 03:05 PM
And frost mages have frost nova, blink, a water elemental with a root skill, iceblock, a shield to take damage. Fire mages have a blast nova-ish thing, frost nova and blink. That's a bit more than the average hunter has. :p
Hunters have traps, scatter shot or intimidation. Wing clip requires you to be in melee range, which means poisons and hamstring will do the same if they hit. Bringing you back to melee range. :p
Casters can always abuse the hunter's deadzone. Something casters luckily don't have. :p

Mages have enough ways to keep people off them. Especially frost ones. ><
In my eyes the sheep "nerf" was more than fair.

you see usually i wud agree.. however, when you have PvP'd with Tbone.. yes it was pre tbc but even still he one shotted everything.. i cudnt even cast. not regardless if i even had nova.. sheep he wud kill me before i did anything. mages have CC yes.. but hunters can fire from like 5000 miles away :(.

Warlee
25-08-2007, 03:42 PM
I'm not going to complain, but was fun to have 5 seconds for drinking when someone was in sheep (ooc went on 7 seconds). I just hope after many sheeps it will be like 10-->6--->6 not 10--->4---->4 and hey after all all effects which had over 10 seconds duration are reduced. So it's fair .



However almost all posts above are world of theory, which has same succes in pvp as guessing meaning of life.

Flawless
25-08-2007, 03:47 PM
However almost all posts above are world of theory, which has same succes in pvp as guessing meaning of life That includes your post right?

soulshift
25-08-2007, 03:57 PM
That includes your post right?

Think it does. :<

Trupiaczacha
25-08-2007, 04:54 PM
hunters i dont want be rude but L2p...

if you say about builds. frost etc. look at you trees. se BM. immune to all CC ! pet liek a warrior hiting...

seriosly if hunter qq taht mages have more CC abilitys and can kitt better as hunters you need l2p. special in arenas. or go to Sloth / gruze they will maybe teach you how to play good.


to the sheep. it was too imba. ;p ofc ints not perfect C abit. but non is. combination of nova CoC sheep etc work good and did work too good. slowly they balancing all for arena. and tahts good.

soulshift
25-08-2007, 05:03 PM
hunters i dont want be rude but L2p...

You're telling all hunters to learn to play or just the ones posting in this topic?


if you say about builds. frost etc. look at you trees. se BM. immune to all CC ! pet liek a warrior hiting...

BM means you're immune once every few minutes for a few seconds, yes. Iceblock basically does the same. You just can't do damage during iceblock. But only frost specced mages have it though. Same goes for the redpetspec. Only one spec has it. :p


seriosly if hunter qq taht mages have more CC abilitys and can kitt better as hunters you need l2p. special in arenas. or go to Sloth / gruze they will maybe teach you how to play good.

I wasn't "QQ"ing at all. I was comparing. Heck, I don't even play a hunter anymore but seeing as my main used to be a hunter, I guess it does apply to me. :p
I compared ALL mage specs with hunters in general. I honestly think that redpetspec is rather imbalanced versus casters, seeing as my main and alt are currently a druid and priest. (Feral and holy/disc)
The reason I brought in that mages have more skills to CC isn't to be like "Oh god, they're so imba" but just to show that the cloth to mail comparison wouldn't "balance" mages at all. It would make them horribly overpowered. It wasn't "QQ"ing at all.

to the sheep. it was too imba. ;p ofc ints not perfect C abit. but non is. combination of nova CoC sheep etc work good and did work too good. slowly they balancing all for arena. and tahts good.

I have to agree with you on this. I really hated sheep in arenas and still do. But it now makes it less bad than it used to be.
I really do think that this is all a step into the right direction.
Above all, this was to be expected if you look at new CC skills like cyclone. :p

Trupiaczacha
25-08-2007, 05:09 PM
well besicly you cant bring builds abilitys... its just stupid.

bec if hunter complain about snow mages... same can mages complain about BM hunters....

but all in all BM hunter that can play so good as good frost mage have in theory more % to win. but thats just theory.

all in all ( agian) its to balance arena CC. it should be bring to minimum. same as LoS problems should be minimum... so game will be actualy good and not some stupid bullshit runing at pillars...

soulshift
25-08-2007, 05:12 PM
well besicly you cant bring builds abilitys... its just stupid.

bec if hunter complain about snow mages... same can mages complain about BM hunters....

but all in all BM hunter that can play so good as good frost mage have in theory more % to win. but thats just theory.

all in all ( agian) its to balance arena CC. it should be bring to minimum. same as LoS problems should be minimum... so game will be actualy good and not some stupid bullshit runing at pillars...

You're missing the point.
The reason I compared the CC was because earlier on, someone said that mages should get mail because of this "nerf".
Because before was stated that mages would have less chance to keep someone of him/her.
Hence I stated that hunters have less ways to keep something off him/her and then compared it with the abilities mages have.
Hunters have a lower damage output but a better survivability. You simply can't have both. That's basically what I was trying to say with my post. :p

Trupiaczacha
25-08-2007, 05:17 PM
Hence I stated that hunters have less ways to keep something off him/her and then compared it with the abilities mages have.


its not so rly.

and all depends on builds so basicly you cant sa so.

some thing you and other said are basted on 1 build. thats someone have.

and thats not good thing.

anyway me post was more general that to you. ;)

soulshift
25-08-2007, 05:33 PM
anyway me post was more general that to you. ;)

Hehe ok. I wasn't sure. :P

Myriima
25-08-2007, 07:31 PM
Longer lasting sheep would just be unfair in lets say 2v2 or 3vs3 arenas. Itīs easy for a team to go in there without a magic dispeller, like having a druid healer or shaman. Besides the trinket, there would be no counter to be sheeped. And god forbid you use trinket for anything else, then you are screwed for 2 minutes. Basically, it would force people to take a priest or pally along (or lock with felhunter) to have a realistic chance when facing a team with a mage

Gruze
25-08-2007, 07:55 PM
No one can complain untill they have deadzones and traps with 30 sec cd's >_<

Kirril
25-08-2007, 08:32 PM
*sob* I don't even have a trap with 30 sec CD. Can I complain now?

soulshift
25-08-2007, 08:40 PM
*sob* I don't even have a trap with 30 sec CD. Can I complain now?

Quickly, whine about fear!

Warlee
26-08-2007, 07:53 AM
That includes your post right?
No, going ooc after 7 second always happens, unless you are attacked by other target. And talking ' you can nova, iceblock, water elementa' is just stupid. And so far it's not a discussion how poor are hutners but how reducing sheep by 2 secodns will afftect things in pvp.

soulshift
26-08-2007, 10:29 AM
No, going ooc after 7 second always happens, unless you are attacked by other target.

And you think being able to sit down and drink/eat in the middle of a fight is quite fair? :P

And talking ' you can nova, iceblock, water elementa' is just stupid.

And why is it stupid? Isn't it meant to keep people off you? Earlier on was noted that sheep was the only way, which it isn't. Sheep was and still will be the best way to do it because no one can act during it unless you were a druid in caster form (most likely a resto druid).

And so far it's not a discussion how poor are hutners

No one said hunters were "poor". :P

but how reducing sheep by 2 secodns will afftect things in pvp.

10 seconds is enough to nuke down a target if you coordinate fire if you already started fighting and he isn't a bubbledin with a bubble fetish or a mage who prefers to iceblock whenever the cooldown is off.

I think, just like Trupi said earlier, this will balance some of the issues there were in the arenas.

Warlee
26-08-2007, 10:38 AM
So, u quoted some 'parts' with idiotic anwsers to never asked questions. I didn't say anything negative about reducing timer of sheep. Just reminded real topic of this. And if we speak of arena, 10 seconds is rarely enough to nuke ALONE target, which is playing back with fear, another CC , unless u're fighting on 1500 with people having 7k hp and mighty 23 resilence. Why it's not enough? Because everyone can get out of sheep by random things (dispell, trinket and so on)


And why is it stupid? Isn't it meant to keep people off you? Earlier on was noted that sheep was the only way, which it isn't. Sheep was and still will be the best way to do it because no one can act during it unless you were a druid in caster form (most likely a resto druid).

to quote you in your style. No talking about water elemental, nova ain't keeping people off you.


Anyway sheep will be fine as it is now.


ah and forgot
And you think being able to sit down and drink/eat in the middle of a fight is quite fair?

Who said pvp is fair.

soulshift
26-08-2007, 11:02 AM
So, u quoted some 'parts' with idiotic anwsers to never asked questions.

I quoted all parts, not some. :p

I didn't say anything negative about reducing timer of sheep. Just reminded real topic of this.

Ok, I misunderstood your post a bit then. :p

And if we speak of arena, 10 seconds is rarely enough to nuke ALONE target, which is playing back with fear, another CC , unless u're fighting on 1500 with people having 7k hp and mighty 23 resilence. Why it's not enough? Because everyone can get out of sheep by random things (dispell, trinket and so on)

True, but I was more refering to PvP in general. Alot of pugs from both sides don't have alot of resilience. :p
And if you're rather high in arena rankings, there must surely be another way to kill people. :p

Anyway sheep will be fine as it is now.

I agree. I'm more happy that it affects things like fear though. Which was the only thing that bothered me as a feral druid.

Who said pvp is fair.

I was more refering to your first post in here, hoping you'd see that I wasn't even that serious about that. :p

I never gave answers to unasked questions. I raised some in the hope to understand more of other people's views regarding this. Hereby I stated what I think and what I've seen so far. The reason I started about hunters is because earlier on, for example, the mail/cloth thing was brought up, which are two different issues.

Warlee
26-08-2007, 11:17 AM
If we speak of mail/cloth now. This is silly. And no, not to quote you Soul but someone else before. Frost mages have rarely problems on 1v1 versus melee/hunters. And armor gives reduced damage from melee attacks, so why mail?. Yes, fire mages are easier to kill but each builds has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

Now a bit offtopic. Main issue of todays pvp (2v2) for mages I think is warrior + healing druid or warlock + healer. In my opinion fear should get horrible nerf. Nerf like warrior's fear. Breaks on damage. Myself not sure if warrior's fear has chance to break or just always does it but that's how it should work imo. Blizzard prolly though reduced timer of fear on damage will help. Nah, warlock is class which works on dots - yeah 90% of warlocks is hybrid aff/demon. And as main post contained. 12 seconds for warlock is enough for max dot + drain life a bit on 1v1. If mage has cooldowns, not counting in trinket and 2x iceblock. Let's say just trinket.

Exting
26-08-2007, 01:43 PM
this post was silly from the start. Its purely for the people who value their own opinions more then anything else.

Kirril
26-08-2007, 01:54 PM
Who said pvp is fair.

What a useless comment. If PvP wasn't meant to be just remotely fair we most likely wouldn't even be discussing this. <.<

Warlee
26-08-2007, 02:11 PM
I wish what I said would be based on my opinion Exting. But saying' give mages mail' makes more or less most idiotic post in this topic.

Exting
30-08-2007, 01:49 AM
I wish what I said would be based on my opinion Exting. But saying' give mages mail' makes more or less most idiotic post in this topic.

i never said give mages mail.. i said they do not have mail.
maybe if one of your qualitys was reading. you might have not bothered posting.

Rey
31-08-2007, 02:22 PM
Pvp will be fair.........when locks get nerfed

Kathra
01-09-2007, 04:30 PM
Pvp will be fair.........when locks get nerfed

And shammies, pallies, warriors, frostmages.

Anything that isnt a druid really.

Warlee
01-09-2007, 05:13 PM
in other words buff (feral)druid gief nerf of warlock :P

Kathra
01-09-2007, 05:28 PM
in other words buff (feral)druid gief nerf of warlock :P

Nah screw ferals, buff teh restos.

soulshift
02-09-2007, 01:37 AM
Who are you and what did you do to my Kathra? :(

Kathra
02-09-2007, 05:04 PM
Who are you and what did you do to my Kathra? :(


;[

Warlee
02-09-2007, 07:06 PM
no, don't screw feral, I don't care about resto :P

Rey
03-09-2007, 08:38 AM
Thats it, /gquit!

Ailith
03-09-2007, 04:02 PM
Teh Druid Tree form always makes me giggle. There should be talent points in resto tree where you can add shiny baubles to it. And perhaps shiny paper too!

That would be imba.

Warlee
03-09-2007, 09:46 PM
aye , teh druid tree form is nice...when u have warlock who can banish it ofc :P

Xplicit
05-09-2007, 11:37 AM
What did I start...

YuanTi
07-09-2007, 04:00 PM
meh,damn sheep could atleast last long enough to cap a flag in AB!!

Bleetman
07-09-2007, 06:37 PM
No, it couldn't. And shouldn't.

I know, it's shocking that you might actually have to kill defending people.

Gnorth
09-09-2007, 06:52 PM
With my warrior + resto druid combo, a 12 sec sheep is lethal, so a 10 sec sheep actually helps out a little bit atleast.

YuanTi
10-09-2007, 04:02 PM
No, it couldn't. And shouldn't.

I know, it's shocking that you might actually have to kill defending people.

hey,let me whine in peace!

Evilzor
18-09-2007, 10:53 AM
It really is bad news,
To do this to a spell that cant do damage to a hostile target while in this effect is unfair for number of reasons :

1 : Fear last 10 secand, and still take damage in this effect.
2 : Also Sap has being changed, 10 secands, But Rogues have the most best adv, they have the element of surpise, what makes alot of people panic and do things with out thinking them though.
3: Any Decent Arena Team Will have there pvp trinklet. What means are Sheep only last 8/6 secand's. Although this may back fire on rogue the rogue is still invisable, and if they do use it the rogue still has the ele of surpise

I think this is totally unfair, Another Spell per with have to get Stacked on to are Spirt to gain more mana out of Evocation, this needs looking at again imo.

Flawless
18-09-2007, 04:45 PM
And sheeping someone for 20 seconds in an arena would be fair right?

Oh and resheep > trinket.

and more mana outta evo? Whut?

Evilzor
19-09-2007, 01:01 AM
Well, if you "looked" at my point's you'd see that it is Very unfair and not balanced (imo) i didnt say 20 secands, I didnt state "OMG GEIV LIEK 30 SECANDS POLY KK WE R FIXED THEN", So please read it before Claiming that, If it was up to me personally, i would make Polymorgh duration an Extra 2/5 secands, But 10 Secands sounds a bit "To much Nerfed"

Also Flawless, I dont know if you knew but we have to stack up on spirt, to get more mana out of "Evocation" (Evo)

As a mage, and others may or may not agree, we all have different play styles, To make a such a realiable spell like poly a 10 secand cast is a down fall, Because when it comes to Arena it can hold for 6 secands after that what you can fit in 2 fireballs/1 Phyro, Depending on spec.

It also such a downfall to mages in 5v5..

But o well.. I guess we will have to put up with it, get on with it...

Illuminati
19-09-2007, 01:52 AM
It really is bad news,
To do this to a spell that cant do damage to a hostile target while in this effect is unfair for number of reasons :

1 : Fear last 10 secand, and still take damage in this effect.
2 : Also Sap has being changed, 10 secands, But Rogues have the most best adv, they have the element of surpise, what makes alot of people panic and do things with out thinking them though.
3: Any Decent Arena Team Will have there pvp trinklet. What means are Sheep only last 8/6 secand's. Although this may back fire on rogue the rogue is still invisable, and if they do use it the rogue still has the ele of surpise


1) There are way more counters to fear compared to sheep:
WoTF, fear ward, Tremor totem, berserker rage, dispels, shadow school lock = dead lock.
In the arena, It is quite powerful in fearbomb teams which tend to be squishy, yet makes them eat a big chunk of roflwaffle from melee teams.
Exception to this would be sl/sl locks which should get a serious bag of nerf sometime.

2) When you can't see a opponent at the start of a arena match, you'll be expecting either a druid, rogue or a shadowmelded elf. They lose that element of surprise.
Thanks to the trinket change, being sapped isn't that big a deal anymore. You'll even know roughly where the rogue is the instant he saps you, which is more than enough to bring him out of stealth and down the drain.

3) Diminishing returns do reset after a while.
If they break poly with trinket, it makes them way more predicable throughout the fight, adding to how well you can control them at any given time. Hardly a bad thing.
In addition, the pvp trinket can be used on any other cc effect, so all classes are more or less affected by this and mages do not fall in the category of "more".

Warlee
19-09-2007, 01:15 PM
2) When you can't see a opponent at the start of a arena match, you'll be expecting either a druid, rogue or a shadowmelded elf. They lose that element of surprise. MEGZ MAEGZ TOO

Astroth
20-09-2007, 07:13 AM
You just can't do damage during iceblock.

....which is a big deal.

Anyway, is this nerf meant solely for PvP-events, or PvE too? Cause 10 sec Sheep in PvE is just a pain and will lower our dps even more.

Kinshara
20-09-2007, 08:25 AM
Noes, this is solely a pvp change. Sheep (and sap, and trap, etc...) still last a loooong time in pve.

Warlee
20-09-2007, 12:17 PM
Although it's said icelance will be put on global cooldown (rumours atm) which will lower dps in freezeable targets by hell away.

soulshift
20-09-2007, 12:52 PM
....which is a big deal.


BM doesn't remove all harmfull effects on the user though, unline Iceblock. Both have it's strong and weakpoints. :P

And like others said, it's only a PvP fix. Not PvE. :P

Warlee
20-09-2007, 09:15 PM
iceblock is fien, they could make debuff though to 15 secs but it's balanced now too i guess

Sloth
21-09-2007, 10:50 PM
try trapping someone in pvp once every 30 seconds before you complain about sheep tbh :p

Flawless
22-09-2007, 12:36 PM
Why the hell does it say sloth has posted here?

Alverion
22-09-2007, 02:19 PM
Sloths new sig <3

soulshift
22-09-2007, 02:42 PM
Why the hell does it say sloth has posted here?

Cause he did? Forum just bugged and didn't show it for a while, but if you pressed reply and saw the list of previous comments, it was listed there.
Now you can see it normally as well. :P

Flawless
22-09-2007, 02:55 PM
Oh I see, I can see it now. Was annoying me hard ;G

Matzumo
11-06-2008, 07:31 AM
bastard gold sellers are resurrecting dead topics =(