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Chopper
21-08-2007, 09:41 AM
The proc-rate of Mace Spec stun is going to be reduced in the upcoming patch.

When I've fought against or as a Mace-specced warrior, both previously as Swordsmith and currently as a Macesmith, the stun rate does seem to be somewhat excessive. The reduction is probably not such a bad thing. More time before DR effects in longer fights, for example.

Doesn't bother me too much, as I switched to from Swordsmith to Macesmith for Thunder's stats and superior top-end damage.

Sources:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=557846007&sid=1
QQ/Gloat thread from some generic High Farmlord with a CFW and a chip on their shoulder :D

And the relevant/blue stuff from that thread:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=1134165636&sid=1&pageNo=24#474
Original statement from Kalgan

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=1134165636&sid=1&pageNo=25#498
Elaboration from Kalgan

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=557846007&sid=1&pageNo=3#42
Some further reasoning from Salthem

Hongten
21-08-2007, 10:44 AM
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff278/sekdar/stunherald_final.jpg

Muffy
21-08-2007, 10:54 AM
rofl
________
HotPleasure (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/HotPleasure/)

Chopper
21-08-2007, 11:33 AM
Very funny, Hong. :)

Although "Whineherald" is probably more appropriate, given the weapons principal secondary effect.

Malison
21-08-2007, 11:53 AM
hahahha nice pic

and anyone with half a brain could have predicted this 'nerf' months ago

Stim
21-08-2007, 12:01 PM
Good thing my Vortexes went the right way... Hope the bitches won't notice that axes +5% crit counters their "OMFG GIEF1000 resilience to everyone an DOTDOTDOT" policy.

Mojo
21-08-2007, 04:41 PM
...

Hearst
21-08-2007, 11:38 PM
That's just fucking great... whiners.

Jurgan
21-08-2007, 11:43 PM
Doesnt come as that much of a surprise.

Smellyskele
22-08-2007, 12:41 AM
bout time :)

Stim
22-08-2007, 07:42 AM
http://files.filefront.com/Natural+Born+Killer+Rogue+PvP/;8331995;;/fileinfo.html
That makes sense.

Muffy
22-08-2007, 07:55 AM
That's just fucking great... whiners.

lol?
________
DelightNight (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/DelightNight/)

Hearst
22-08-2007, 08:26 AM
That's a very difficult post to reply but yes... lol.

By what Blizzard's CM have said is that they're reducing the proc rate not primarily because it was too high but due to the fact that the Mace spec is the Pvp spec of choice for the vast majority and they don't want that. They say they want all Weapon specs to be equal but they can't be equal jackasses. Sword and Axe specs are by far superior than Mace spec is in anything else than Pvp and can sure damn well perform in Pvp at the same time. While at this the Mace spec is lacking in the DPS department when compared to the other two.

The Mace spec's most impact is at smaller scaled fights and especially 1v1 even though Blizzard stated the game isn't balanced around 1v1 but how do you tell that to the whiny mage that got killed by the warrior whose Stun procced after he Blinked. In 5v5 the Mace spec has very little impact in the outcome of the fight, at most is catching that BoF'd Lock running around DoTing everything.

Remember how the Mace spec used to be? 5% to Stun like the other specs and remember.. oh yeah it was shit back then :). Supposedly the proc rate with a 3.8 Speed Weapon is 11% according to the old post by Tseric, the most acceptable reduction is by 2% without making completely unreliable.

Maybe if you cry a little more they'll nerf Second Wind and Mortal Strike too. :)

EDIT: Also that vid Stim is like watching Mute in World of Roguecraft 1 all over again at 70. Pop all your CDs and murder someone in the stun duration very nice :). But you need to understand that the Mace Specs for warriors and rogues are different. Because the warriors' mace spec is in Arms and that means that they will be using a 2h with it 5% was not good enough so the spec was changed to a PPM style proc (that stands for Proc Per Minute.) The rogues' spec however is still 6%(not 5 either) and it's because the rogues are dual-wielding maces so it will proc just as much if not more. The warriors' mace spec was broken, the rogues' wasn't.

lol

Chopper
22-08-2007, 09:32 AM
Mace spec should be and is superior for PvP. It's about an element of control (albeit random) over an enemy or opponent rather than a direct boost to damage output.

At the same time, whilst obviously inferior to Sword or Poleaxe, Mace spec isn't a total dud for PvE. Every time Mace spec procs against a stun immune mob, the warrior is still granted +6 rage - rage that can be converted into damage.

However, when it's possible to stunlock a PvP opponent from 100-0% purely with procs, even rarely, then something needs fixing. I've done this a few times and I've been on the receiving end of it a few times, and it just feels cheap. The stun is supposed to be a "chance to stun", not something "reliable".

Thunder through to Stormherald combined with Mace specialization will still be superior for PvP. The weapons will still have monstrous top-end damage for their iLevel, making them ideally suited to a MS/PvP build, and they'll still have their crapload of Strength, Agility and Stamina. Opponents will still get stunned by spec and weapon procs. You won't suddenly need to bank your mace and completely rethink how you PvP.

The mace spec "nerf" - there, I said the N-word - is not going to be the end of the fucking World (of Warcraft).

Stim
22-08-2007, 09:40 AM
. Every time Mace spec procs against a stun immune mob, the warrior is still granted +6 rage - rage that can be converted into damage
In short: Mace spec crap for PvE ^^ And will be on par with other specs in PvP as their promise (read - crap too). Conclusion: I got somewhat buffed in PvP through opponents nerf \o/

Valoran
22-08-2007, 09:44 AM
In short: Mace spec crap for PvE ^^ And will be on par with other spec in PvP as their promise (read - crap too). Conclusion: I got PvP somewhat buffed through opponents nerf \o/
The 1her is arguably the best for pve fury dps. ATM (pre haste and mace spec nerf) there's really no reason to be specced for anything else as a warrior with access to t5 content.

Edit: the only reason I mention t5 content is that up to the final versions of weapons, you're better off using arena rewards.

Stim
22-08-2007, 09:48 AM
I see no connection between Fury craftable mace dps and Arms 2h mace stun proc tbh >_> Nice try though.

Valoran
22-08-2007, 09:51 AM
You said mace spec was crap for pve, so I pointed out that the 1h mace also rocks. I realise now you meant the talent though. :p

Still, it is worth mentioning that mace spec (blacksmithing) is still the bees knees compared to sword/axe.

Stim
22-08-2007, 10:04 AM
OMG Val...
MACE SPEC is Warrior's Arms Tree talent (and rogue's combat tree), not Master Hammersmith blacksmithing specialisation... >_<

Valoran
22-08-2007, 10:06 AM
I'm aware. :p
Master Hammersmith (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=17040) is quite often referred to as "mace spec", no biggy.

Hearst
22-08-2007, 10:07 AM
In short: Mace spec crap for PvE ^^ And will be on par with other specs in PvP as their promise (read - crap too). Conclusion: I got somewhat buffed in PvP through opponents nerf \o/

That 6 Rage of course can in no way compete with the extra rage you gain from the other two specs (extra attack or crit.)

Chopper
22-08-2007, 10:09 AM
Like I said - "obviously inferior", but not "a total dud".

Tsarina
22-08-2007, 12:12 PM
I'm with Valoran on this one, tbh. Mace has been by far the best BS choice for both PvP and PvE. You make the 2H to PvP with and the 1H to PvE with. If you don't respec 1H/fury for PvE DPS, you will suck anyway and have no reason to complain (6 rage from a 2hander, lol...).

Chopper
22-08-2007, 01:05 PM
Did the words "obviously inferior" and "not a total dud" give you the idea that I think the +6 rage is something to get happy in the pants about? It was a comparison of the weapon specializations in the Arms tree. Not the blacksmithing specializations. Not talent specializations (i.e. heavy Arms vs heavy Fury).

1H/Fury best for DPS? What an astounding breakthrough.

Valoran
22-08-2007, 01:22 PM
Well, the two are tied together pretty much. If you're min/maxing for both pve or pvp you end up going for MS or fury. The best weapons are also tied to a choice in blacksmithing specialisation, it just so happens that the best for both happens to be hammersmith.

It was a slight derail when I brought up blacksmithing, but it is an important thing for warriors to consider these days, given how powerful BS weapons are with their ease to obtain.

Kinshara
22-08-2007, 01:39 PM
Anyone bothered to find out whether the upcoming haste nerf makes the 1handers equivalent?

Valoran
22-08-2007, 01:45 PM
AFAIK, warriors (and I believe enhancement shaman) won't replace their dragonstrike till they get a certain illidan drop. Haste is just that awesome, given the way it scales compared to static ap/crit values. By the time you reach instances which drop items that *may* be better, your gear has scaled to the point where the haste is just too valuable to drop.

Edit before someone mentions it: I know shaman can't use the warblades, that part was aimed specifically at warriors.

Stim
22-08-2007, 01:53 PM
This is why they nerf it now and expect some future nerf too. That's the way Blizzard works: First the stuff almost every single item with one stat, then they start crying "WHAT HAVE WE DONE!!!1" and nerf it.

Kinshara
22-08-2007, 02:19 PM
AFAIK, warriors (and I believe enhancement shaman) won't replace their dragonstrike till they get a certain illidan drop. Haste is just that awesome, given the way it scales compared to static ap/crit values. By the time you reach instances which drop items that *may* be better, your gear has scaled to the point where the haste is just too valuable to drop.

At present, yes. But melee haste has apparently been nerfed on the PTR (requires 15.76 rating for 1% haste, compared to 10.5 on live), so I'm asking if that's still the case. Meh, I should probably browse EJ or something to find out...

Valoran
22-08-2007, 02:21 PM
That's including the upcoming haste nerf (notice I did refer to it earlier and was answering a question specifically on the subject, hence was aware it existed. :p)

Kinshara
22-08-2007, 02:28 PM
That's including the upcoming haste nerf (notice I did refer to it earlier and was answering a question specifically on the subject, hence was aware it existed. :p)

Fair enough. Blizzard really should be more careful when they add secondary scaling stats :)

iTank
22-08-2007, 02:29 PM
o'lol and i just respecced for mace but still it feels good to stun some wankers on duty! :blob6:

Tsarina
22-08-2007, 03:15 PM
Did the words "obviously inferior" and "not a total dud" give you the idea that I think the +6 rage is something to get happy in the pants about?.
It gave me the idea that you've actually been DPSing with a 2hander. Which is even more "lol".


1H/Fury best for DPS? What an astounding breakthrough.
I realise you're grumpy because you're nerfed. Don't take it out on me. Did I in anyway try to present it as some kind of new information, or was I just stating it as a fact while making a point of hammersmithing still being superior?
(And I'm pretty sure it still will be after haste nerf.)

Warriors should use axes anyway. Just ask Chonar.

(The best way of slowing yer opponents is to make em quite, quite dead! I personally suggest axes for this job,

Valoran
22-08-2007, 03:16 PM
Don't bring Chonar into this. He's a pansy armorsmith.

Gwynin
22-08-2007, 03:26 PM
And a d0rf!

iTank
22-08-2007, 03:30 PM
But he's right tho - axes are the best for chopping flesh and bones, aka gorefest <3

ESPECIALLY among us big hearted, green colored actionlovers! =)

Valoran
22-08-2007, 03:39 PM
Axes are the best for chopping, but smashing seems to do more damage.

Gwynin
22-08-2007, 03:40 PM
due to my racial skills I prefer sticking with swords or maces tbh, atleast untill the time a better axe or dagger shows up :)

Hearst
22-08-2007, 08:42 PM
Mace spec should be and is superior for PvP. It's about an element of control (albeit random) over an enemy or opponent rather than a direct boost to damage output.

At the same time, whilst obviously inferior to Sword or Poleaxe, Mace spec isn't a total dud for PvE. Every time Mace spec procs against a stun immune mob, the warrior is still granted +6 rage - rage that can be converted into damage.

However, when it's possible to stunlock a PvP opponent from 100-0% purely with procs, even rarely, then something needs fixing. I've done this a few times and I've been on the receiving end of it a few times, and it just feels cheap. The stun is supposed to be a "chance to stun", not something "reliable".

Thunder through to Stormherald combined with Mace specialization will still be superior for PvP. The weapons will still have monstrous top-end damage for their iLevel, making them ideally suited to a MS/PvP build, and they'll still have their crapload of Strength, Agility and Stamina. Opponents will still get stunned by spec and weapon procs. You won't suddenly need to bank your mace and completely rethink how you PvP.

The mace spec "nerf" - there, I said the N-word - is not going to be the end of the fucking World (of Warcraft).
T
hose 'stunlock' moments are purely very lucky and probably on shitty geared opponents. I'd like you or anyone alone to do that to any mage, warlock or priest with Gladiator who are all 'cloth'.

The point is that we've received enough damage nerfs. After nerfing our damage, going after our utility is just insult to injury. Obviously it's not the end of the world of fucking warcraft and I'm not banking my lovely mace but it's such a shame isn't? But if nerfs make you happy you chose the right class. *Hi Five*

Chopper
22-08-2007, 08:51 PM
It gave me the idea that you've actually been DPSing with a 2hander. Which is even more "lol".
It's like Cassina never left. :roll:

I'm a casual raider at best. My Fury gear is non-existent. Go figure.

I realise you're grumpy because you're nerfed. Don't take it out on me.
You don't realise anything; you incorrectly assume whilst failing at reading comprehension.

I agree with the nerf. Here it is again...

However, when it's possible to stunlock a PvP opponent from 100-0% purely with procs, even rarely, then something needs fixing. I've done this a few times and I've been on the receiving end of it a few times, and it just feels cheap.
I believe that the reduction in procrate will lead to lesser or later diminishing returns in longer fights and less "piss-taking stunlocks" in shorter fights, which would both be positive changes imo.

Did I in anyway try to present it as some kind of new information, or was I just stating it as a fact while making a point of hammersmithing still being superior?
The latter, but coupled with some bons mots referring to things I'd said, so you weren't "just stating". I've no idea why you're acting aggrieved.

Chopper
22-08-2007, 09:24 PM
Those 'stunlock' moments are purely very lucky and probably on shitty geared opponents. I'd like you or anyone alone to do that to any mage, warlock or priest with Gladiator who are all 'cloth'.
Admittedly, it's been a while. One example I remember was a duel outside IF versus a mage shortly after I crafted Thunder (I know, duels != pvp) which wasn't a total lockdown, but I won with around 90% and we both wtf'd. The mage's gear could have easily been crap though, as they usually expect to beat warriors when they're running around in a dirty loincloth and wielding an enchanted twig.

Another example was versus an Orc warrior in wsg, me with Lionheart, him with Thunder. We charged, danced around a bit until we were both around 50-60%, then hit/stun, free hit, stun fades, I move a bit, hit/stun again, free hit, execute. That was part-way through S1 and we had comparable S1/Honor gear. I armory'd him after we fought because I was in stunned disbelief.

I'll concede that "total stunlock from 100-0%" is an exaggeration and much less likely now, with higher resilience and hp levels, but there are still fights that I win easily because of what seems like excessive procs.

The point is that we've received enough damage nerfs. After nerfing our damage, going after our utility is just insult to injury. Obviously it's not the end of the world of fucking warcraft and I'm not banking my lovely mace but it's such a shame isn't? But if nerfs make you happy you chose the right class. *Hi Five*
Of course nerfs don't make me happy, but at the moment mace spec seems to proc like buggery. It just feels a bit "meh" when I kill someone because they couldn't do anything just because I got lucky. I'm fed up of being dismissed as lucky, I guess.

Tsarina
22-08-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm a casual raider at best. My Fury gear is non-existent. Go figure.

I have no understanding for using casual as an excuse to not do your best. Go figure.

You don't realise anything; you incorrectly assume whilst failing at reading comprehension.
I'm correct based on the, slightly limited I'll admit, material I have to make an assumption. You come across as grumpy. Whether you really are or it's just an act, makes no practical difference.

The latter,
So we agree then. Leave it at that and don't try so hard justifying your first reaction that it just looks stupid.

Flawless
23-08-2007, 01:12 AM
Casual as an excuse to not do your best the difference between a hardcore raider and a casual one. Sometimes, its just not worth "doing your best" if the 24 other people aren't going to do it also.

Stim
23-08-2007, 07:04 AM
Less elitist/casual rant plx. It's not blizzard forums we got here ^^
I was thinkning about mace spec nerf. Right now it's based around PPM which means the less is procrate the higher is it's chanse per slower hit, amirite? So the only way to really nerf it is give a static %? Or I'm completely lost in PPM mechanics?

Hearst
23-08-2007, 08:04 AM
You can just reduce the PPM. If it's 5 PPM it means that with a (for the sake of an example) 4.0 Speed Weapon you get 15 Swings in one minute. 5/15 Swings proc it which would mean a 30% chance to proc. You can simply reduce the PPM so that 3/15 swings (that means 3PPM and assuming 4.0 speed) proc the stun which would make it 20% chance to proc.

The Mace Spec talent as it is is 11% with a 3.8 Speed which means ~16 Swings per minute. 11% of 16 would mean about 1.6 or ~2 procs per minute more accurately ~3(.2) procs every 2 minutes (1.6x2).

So if I'm not wrong with 5 Talent points we get 1.6 PPM.

Hearst
23-08-2007, 10:51 AM
Something I forgot to add though. Keep in mind that Mace Spec procs off other moves such as Mortal Strike so in the end you get more procs because the abilities can proc it. I'm not sure if that changes anything in the calculation of the proc rate but I don't think it does, PPM is swing speed based proc. So I supposed the extra-instant attacks count as 'swings.'

minizip
23-08-2007, 11:23 AM
The point is that we've received enough damage nerfs.

This is another damage nerf, ok not on bosses but on mobs that aren't stun immune... remember stunned mobs don't dodge, block or parry so mace space does give a dps boost. Just hope they don't nerf the rogue mace spec too.

Hearst
23-08-2007, 11:44 AM
No I don't agree with that. The Mace Spec isn't a damage Spec but a utility spec meant for Pvp not for mobs and it doesn't really make a difference whether the mob dodges or parries a move really for those 3 seconds. If they nerfed Sword and Axe specs, now that'd be a damage nerf (to the Arms warrior.)

minizip
23-08-2007, 12:03 PM
The Mace Spec isn't a damage Spec

No one is claiming it is, but reducing the stun proc *will* reduce dps slightly, on "stunnable" mobs.

it doesn't really make a difference whether the mob dodges or parries a move really

It does, it reduces dps if they dodge or parry. Or block.

Hearst
23-08-2007, 12:07 PM
That's so insignificantly insignificant it's not even worth thinking to be honest.

miganto
23-08-2007, 12:07 PM
Don't stunned mobs also not hit you meaning you generate less rage? (I mean for pvp and when you take damage) So you could say it's a slight boost ;D

Also, mobs dont block/parry if you stand behind them i thought, if someone is tanking, stand behind the enemy =P (Can enemies dodge attacks from behind? Seems stupid, but thought i'd ask :))

Flawless
23-08-2007, 12:11 PM
Yes they can dodge from behind

Stim
23-08-2007, 12:22 PM
Sometimes they even parry from behind, if they quickly turn around (Fag Reaver) or hit box is large and clumsy.
Had neat pic of my parried Gouge somewhat ago :D

Kinshara
23-08-2007, 12:29 PM
Mobs can, we can't... unless you get lag problems. Which get really annoying when something manages to parry/block a backstab.

Chopper
23-08-2007, 12:32 PM
I have no understanding for using casual as an excuse to not do your best. Go figure.
If we should be doing our best, then why use the Axe if you believe the Mace is better?

The reduction in target-avoidance and increase in crit chance provided by your Orc racial? I'll freely admit that your knowledge and experience of Fury far exceeds mine, but I would have thought the Mace is still the better of the two.

I can understand if it's personal preference for Axes or an unwillingness to reinvest the metals, primals and vortices, not to mention the time and effort to acquire those.

I'm correct based on the, slightly limited I'll admit, material I have to make an assumption. You come across as grumpy. Whether you really are or it's just an act, makes no practical difference.
You stated that "you're grumpy because you're nerfed". I'm not grumpy about the nerf, as I had already stated, then restated for your convenience and further elaborated in my last reply. Your statement was and still is incorrect.

Had you stated that I was generally grumpy, then you'd have a point. I can be a miserable bugger sometimes, and people mock me for it, but I guess some of it is an act - playing along with the mockery perhaps. I do, for the most part, like the people around me and I haven't been gkicked or generally ostracized yet.

So we agree then. Leave it at that and don't try so hard justifying your first reaction that it just looks stupid.
Yes, that de-contextualized quote was agreement.

"you will suck anyway" and "+6 rage from a 2-hander, lol", the bons mots I was referring to, is all the justification I need for my reaction. The thread is about the mace spec nerf, what's your justification for calling suckage and taking a pop at people who apparently don't measure up to your exacting standards? The Internet compels you to be boorish, or something?

Like I said earlier, something that you've either ignored or failed to acknowledge, it was a comparison between the relative merits of Mace and other weapon specializations in the Arms tree. Fury DPS superiority was not a consideration, given that any warrior worth his /played knows which is superior for raid DPS anyway, given the right gear. Blacksmithing specialization was also not a consideration, but I concede Valoran's earlier point that it is extremely relevant.

My point was that Mace specialization in PvE DPS is significantly inferior to Sword or Poleaxe specialization, but not totally inert. Emphasis should be on the inferiority rather than the +6 rage, and I guess that wasn't clear from the way I structured the original sentence. I certainly don't spend my raids counting procs and thinking "Hell, yeah! Another one of those and I can Rend this sucker!"

Tsarina
23-08-2007, 12:51 PM
If we should be doing our best, then why use the Axe if you believe the Mace is better?
Now this is a good question. And you pretty much answer it your self.
The reduction in target-avoidance and increase in crit chance provided by your Orc racial?
+5 to axes was amazing pre TBC and ensured orc was the best race for DPS. Closely followed by humans.

As it turned out, weapon skill is still great for PvE DPS in TBC. Even if it doesn't reduce glancing reduction, you still get crit, hit and, as you mention, you reduce target's avoidance. Would the imba mace proc still make it better? Probably. At least as gear improve. But to be perfectly honest, the reason I only use axes is more about "feel". Call it roleplaying if you like.

I'm an orc. I'm a warrior. I use axes.

As for doing my best, since that was what I accused you of not doing, the axe was a better option when I got it. The mace proc's value increases with your gear. For a naked warrior, the axe is the best weapon. For someone in full T6 (value) gear, mace is better. I don't know exactly when it changes. For an orc it's later than for anyone else.



That's so insignificantly insignificant it's not even worth thinking to be honest.
Before I get into another pointless argument, do you mean reducing avoidance in general is insignificant, or just in this one case on trash that can be stunned?

Hearst
24-08-2007, 11:06 AM
The trash stun.. I thought that was obvious .

Sloth
31-08-2007, 11:18 PM
I'm playing a warrior with thunder atm and it does proc way too much , even won some arena games solely to it proccing twice in a row with my pummel on cd and some guy trying to chainheal himself :)

Hearst
01-09-2007, 12:23 AM
Instead of reducing the proc rate maybe adding a hidden cooldown of say 10 seconds. So it can't proc more than every 10 seconds and it will still be on DR unlike if it was on say 15 or 20 seconds CD. Sounds much better than reducing proc rate since people mostly complain (l2p) about 'stunlocking' and chainproccing.