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sageclaire
01-07-2007, 11:55 PM
http://files.filefront.com/mh+the+tankadin+mid+redwmv/;7895033;/fileinfo.html

nice video, really opened up my mind that pally can actually tank vashj and leo.

Parcival
02-07-2007, 07:59 AM
Very nice yes... there is hope for us :)

Kenny
02-07-2007, 08:38 AM
Well, of course they can, it's more of a problem getting people to let you tank, than to actually tank. ;)

Valoran
02-07-2007, 10:02 AM
Most people have more sense, aye.

It's the same idea as hunter or bear tanking nef back in the day. It's perfectly possible, but it's by no means a sane thing to do if you're learning an encounter.

spikeyy
02-07-2007, 10:18 AM
Most people have more sense, aye.

It's the same idea as hunter or bear tanking nef back in the day. It's perfectly possible, but it's by no means a sane thing to do if you're learning an encounter.

Thats an overly harsh view.

Pallies tank fine, on any encounter they can do the job well. And if your best tank is a paladin there is no need to worry. It is very different to having a hunter tank an encounter he totally out-gears.

Valoran
02-07-2007, 10:25 AM
Well yes, it's grouping hunters with bears and protadins is overly harsh, but the itemisation available to paladins just isn't available to bring them up to par with current bears and warriors. The problem is that they need such a large number and variety of stats to buff their tanking abilities that you can either gear for tps or migitation (or go right down the middle, obviously) and only just catch up to other tanks through this specific gearing on that aspect. There's no specific reason to use a prot pally for anything other than murlocs on morogrim.

Parcival
02-07-2007, 01:51 PM
Eh...

Well, ok, i dont know anything beyond Maulgar... or even everything in Karazhan. But i see alot of reasons before that for a paladin... ok... here i go again :)

Of course besides the obvious undead loving for Paladins in Karazhan... there are a few things.

For almost all content which is on farm, tankadins speed things up imo. For learning encounters, most of the time warriors are better yes.

Holy shield opening - gives you initial aggro on shackable/ banishable mobs, so if it breaks, they go for you. This is useful for like 50%+ trash pulls in Karazhan, and for example the Moroes encounter (aggro on Moroes, plus 2 other mobs). I think overall this is the biggest advantage... great aggro on multiple mobs from the start.

AoE tanking vs the non elite mobs at the start of Karazhan... goes fast :)

Skeletal guardsmen or whatever they're called. 1 consecration, and you're sure the dogs are on you.

For the warrior ogres just before and after Maulgar - Tankadin can taunt from distance so you dont need to run when they charge off in the group (haven't tested this perfect yet because i haven't done these mobs too much yet).

I will keep looking for those... niches where a paladin tank excels... :) But in the end, its just the best to have a mix of classes and roles i think. Most mobs/ bosses - best for warrior tank, some mobs/ bosses - best for druid or paladin tank.

Arjen
02-07-2007, 02:23 PM
Well yes, it's grouping hunters with bears and protadins is overly harsh, but the itemisation available to paladins just isn't available to bring them up to par with current bears and warriors. The problem is that they need such a large number and variety of stats to buff their tanking abilities that you can either gear for tps or migitation (or go right down the middle, obviously) and only just catch up to other tanks through this specific gearing on that aspect. There's no specific reason to use a prot pally for anything other than murlocs on morogrim.

Whatever works, imo. And if they need high specced gear to "catch up" to other tanks, so? It's just a barrier that can be overcome.

And no Val, I'm not about to spec prot, don't worry :P

spikeyy
02-07-2007, 03:29 PM
You dont even "need" a prot pally on morogrim, they just fill a role well there. We have used them on Al'ar and Solarian as well to good effect they are pretty good on FLK as well on hunter (er exceopt the mana drain can be awkward...depends on how you kill them).

Is there is a fight where there is a specific reason to use a bear? I cant think of one atm, and no one denies they are worthwhile tanks.

Valoran
02-07-2007, 04:03 PM
Holy shield opening - gives you initial aggro on shackable/ banishable mobs, so if it breaks, they go for you. This is useful for like 50%+ trash pulls in Karazhan, and for example the Moroes encounter (aggro on Moroes, plus 2 other mobs). I think overall this is the biggest advantage... great aggro on multiple mobs from the start.
Any tank can have aggro on multiple mobs, it's just slightly easier for a paladin as they have a couple of tools which aren't limited by being in melee range of a mob. My main concern with paladins is their migitation rather than their threat generation (which quite frankly rocks).

For the warrior ogres just before and after Maulgar - Tankadin can taunt from distance so you dont need to run when they charge off in the group (haven't tested this perfect yet because i haven't done these mobs too much yet).
Done well, there are a few situations where pallies are *nice* to have, the video in the OP shows good use of divine shield to grab leo at the end of a whirlwind, but it's not really enough to justify using a tank that will have around 2k lower hp, 15% or so lower avoidance and no real oh shit buttons. Long fights tend to give mana issues too, check out the scene towards the end of the video where about 8 bosses fall over within 20 seconds or so, mana is <500 in all of them.

The other thing about the video is that she's using t5 gear in t5 instances, her guild is obviously in black temple/hyjal, so where's the footage of tanking naj'entus or even ras frost..winterchill.
And no Val, I'm not about to spec prot, don't worry :P
sure sure :p

infneon
02-07-2007, 04:07 PM
omg pally are heal nub!

Parcival
03-07-2007, 11:33 AM
Valoran - yea i agree on that most of the time Warriors are wanted more then paladins. I am just saying that Paladins are nice in more then only the fight you mentioned.

And not only nice, but can speed up runs.

Also - yes Warriors will have about 2k more health... but not so much more mitigation. Basic mitigation is 4% more, but because warriors stack mroe stam, and paladins more base mitigation to get to the magic non-crushable 100%, their mitigation isn't that much different.. ?

Of course the thing is that paladin tanking gear... er... isn't on par with warrior tanking gear i think... at least tier 4 isn't, and i doubt tier 5 is.

Meh - in the end, again, a mix is the best imo.

Stim
03-07-2007, 11:45 AM
heeel

sageclaire
03-07-2007, 12:56 PM
i started the threat on the basis of showing that paladin CAN tank. I dont even say they r the PREFERRED tank, let me get that right. Also pally tanking ONLY on moro add ? no thnx. We use tiamat (a FULL prot paladin ) tanking on moro add, solar add, maggy's add and LOTS more. and heck, he tanked Sh hero ( BEFORE THE GODDAMNED NERF ) really really really well. On big packs, avenger shield, carpet for 2/3 sec, u can then nuke like hell without even ONE CC, he just soak up the dmg. no add went awry what so ever. So stop saying that pally tank is almost non-existant except on morogrim's encounter, coz in honesty, they are hybrid tank/healer as per mentioned by blizzard.

Valoran
03-07-2007, 01:01 PM
They're perfectly viable offtanks. However, they're a stupid choice for a main tank on any form of progression boss. The video in the OP seemed to be going out of its way to show the paladin as being viable in a maintank role.

Taurusos
03-07-2007, 01:03 PM
No point in denial tbh.

Prot palas are the best choice for AoE tanking.

Having a prot tank for the trash before Al´ar for example, the hawklings changes things.
And same as the spikey rogue said for moro adds or al´ar adds etc etc.

However, there is sacrifice to be made when a pala maintanks something, simply for the reason that they do lack the HP values of a dwarf/tauren etc and also lack the "oh shit" abilities. You will definately have more wipes if a pala MTs a boss due to the sudden spikes.

/Tau

Tiamat
03-07-2007, 04:14 PM
Ok, since I am being mentioned in this post I might as well spill my guts about paladin tanking and what I have found out myself so far.

Paladin tank aggro generation against multiple mobs is unmatched, but we knew that ;-)

Paladin tank aggro generation against a single mob is really good, a really imba feral druid can also generate a lot of aggro to though. You can even start nuking before the mob actually reaches the paladin if it is an undead or demon. The best trick is to pop youre imba wings and go all out, best used if the fight is a dps race, less time waiting for aggro = better.

What a lot of people also do not know though is that paladins depend on getting melee hit for an important part of the aggro generation and the mana generation, paladin tanks are totally the sux at shade of aran, and totally made of win against moroes to name 2 extremes. This is also the reason why we will never be the main tank on every fight, warriors are much more adaptable in the current set of encounters. (Paladins imo also suck at elemental bosses, like hydross)

Paladins (imo) have on par mitigation with warriors (lolwtfnowai!) and better scaling mitigation then feral druids. Let me explain.

First of all bears: most bears that walk around are near the armor cap of 75%, this is of course really imba (although they have no mitigation from defensive stance or righteous fury), but what happens when they get better gear? They do not get much more armor mitigation (prolly none) from better gear and they do not benefit from buffs like inspiration since they are capped anyway. They do not get the full benefit from defense rating (+parry and +block doesn’t do anything for them) so they prolly go for stacking stamina, + dodge, strength and agility, needless to say this will not scale as much with the gear as it does for a paladin or a warrior in terms of avoidance and mitigation. The nice thing about bears is that they can tank there add, turn into a kitty a go dps (although they are still wearing tanking gear, so the dps will be a bit less) while offering leader of the pack to other physical dps classes. They are also excellent for offtanking “hurtfull strike” kinda bosses (like Gruul) because they can maintain high aggro without being constantly hit and of course have a lot of armor to eat the strikes.

So then we have the paladin mitigation… talent wise it is the same as warriors, we have a +20 defense skill talent, we have a +5% parry talent etc. Warriors however get 10% damage reduction (vs 6% paladin) in defensive stance so they are on the lead there. Warriors also have around 1.5k more base health, so they are more ahead. Warriors have “o shit” buttons which are of course also nice. But paladins have unique abilities as well.

We take 30% less damage when under 35% hp, this is often seen as a last resort, but if you have 18k hp then we are talking about 30% less damage when under 6.5k hp, believe me when I say that this will save you’re life in a lot of situations, also on 4-5k hitting bosses, it is basically a passive “o shit” button.

Well geared paladins are crushing blow immune against a single mob (due to the fact that we have 8 charges in our shield block instead of 2), and the nice part is that when you reached this point you will prolly have defensive stats looking like this: 40-45% chance to totally avoid damage; 55-60% chance to block; 0% chance to be critted, crushed or normally hit. From this point it also becomes very interesting to begin stacking block value since you will block so much and it is quite cool damage mitigation next to armor. Also, high-geared warriors often see a fall back in rage generation when they have a lot of avoidance; paladins have no rage and therefore no rage problems. I think, also looking at the paladin tanking loot in black temple, that paladins actually have the best gear scaling of all tanking capable classes. Since when our gear goes up our aggro generation AND our avoidance and mitigation goes up.

It is a common trend nowadays to look at a tank and look at his hp, seeing stacking solid stars of elune in you’re gear as a measure of success. If you do that, you will always see paladins fail. But tell me what good is having 2k (on a scale of 20k) more hp when you have no mitigation and when you can take massive crushing blow spikes? Tanks do not die because the hp slowly runs out, they die because they take spike damage which cannot be healed quick enough. So you can counter that in 2 ways, get massive amounts of hp and hope the healers are quick enough when the spike occurs or prevent the spikes from happening in the first place.

Again, I am not saying that a paladin should be you’re choice of MT on every encounter, but there is a niche of encounters (fast hitting bosses, dual wielding bosses, and most demon/undead bosses) where we will do better then warriors and a majority of encounters where a warrior is probably the better pick.

Of course you can debate this (in fact I invite you to, I seek to learn more about my own strengths and weaknesses). But where it really comes down to in a lot of situations is what was mentioned earlier: getting the opportunity to tank. I can remember a time where all paladins were retribution and were considered crap healers and good for nothing but blessing and judging. If you would even mention the possibility of a paladin being main healer you would get laughed at and mocked by every self respecting priest and druid. And there was NO raid leader in the right course of mind that would ever let paladins alone heal the main tank. Since then talents changed, gear changed, and by many paladins are now considered the best healers in the game, it only took a long while before people figured it out.

They really buffed the paladin-tanking tree, and they really made itemization great. The only thing that is standing in the way is (again) the mindsets of people. I can understand it to some extent to though, tanking has always been the warrior’s courtyard, much like healing was the priest courtyard. If you would go back 1.5-2 years in time and say paladins are better healers then druids and priests you would get ignored, nowadays you would have a (hopefully) constructive discussion.

sageclaire
03-07-2007, 04:59 PM
what our tank said :plove u tia ;)

infneon
03-07-2007, 08:18 PM
Heh, just went to check how Tiamat's gear stacks up against mine. Shame he's in his healing gear :(

Flawless
04-07-2007, 12:22 AM
bring back ctprofiles ¬_¬

Parcival
04-07-2007, 07:04 AM
Nice post Tiamat :) and yes, lets hope on some constructive discussion.

infneon
04-07-2007, 12:46 PM
As far as I can see, the only problem with paladin tanking at the moment is the lack of that tiny bit of health. If there was a talent in very deep prot that increased health more than guardians favor does, the problem would be solved. I've noticed that it's been cut a bit fine in TK against the robots on the way to VR, sitting on about 5% health is kinda scary, praying for a heal before the next hit

Kinshara
04-07-2007, 01:11 PM
Hmm... I had some problems on my tankadin regarding judgements; lack of spellhit means my threat generation isn't quite as stable as I'd like. Maybe the weapon skill talent should be changed to help holy nukes instead?

mcmaybe
05-07-2007, 05:58 PM
U non believers should try a normal SH run with a protection paly. Even with blueish gear u can clear all the way AOEing up to 11 elites at ones.

Arjen
05-07-2007, 11:14 PM
I haven't seen any non-believers yet. :S

Vegelus
06-07-2007, 08:13 AM
U non believers should try a normal SH run with a protection paly. Even with blueish gear u can clear all the way AOEing up to 11 elites at ones.

Still You had some problems with my aggro ;P
But yeah, tankadins are really nice.

Arjen
06-07-2007, 11:32 AM
Still You had some problems with my aggro ;P
But yeah, tankadins are really nice.

See, my belief about things like that is that these days it's up to each individual player to worry about his.her aggro management, not just go out and attack and expect the tank to maintain it at all times.

With respect intended to you Vegelus, Paladin aggro gain is really very very good, so if you're outaggro-ing the Pally it usually means a) the pally's not very good, or b) you're not letting him build it up in time.

edit: Altho I guess you were just having a laugh. :)

Vegelus
06-07-2007, 02:47 PM
Ofc I was. :P
Esp that I'm Beast Master currently, and that was just a few times in the middle of some harder trash mob's life.

Palados
07-07-2007, 12:58 PM
I personally found out, that tankadin aggro generation scales with gear much better than warrior aggro generation. Plus spell damage and str based damage on paladin gear scales better with iLvL than str based damage on warrior gear. It's simply due to the fact that the price of some stat unity is increasing non lineary, so adding 1 str to 10 str and to 30 str will eat different iPoints from item pool. Therefore if your DPS increase is divided between str and spell damage you usually get more DPS from upgrading the item for 10 iLvL than just getting str upped. Therefore paladin TPS is scaling beter than warrior TPS. About mitigation - it's about the same for pala and warrior if they are equally geared in Kara+ gear. About not having "oh shit abilities" - LoH is a FULL HP restore while having CD only twice as of shield wall. Plus ardent defender is like mini-shield wall without CD and limited duration when you have low HP. We safely use one paladin to tank two Mag adds - first and last. Having him on first add basicly allows your casters to go all out from the first seconds, not waiting for aggro to build up.

I think the new mage "trend" of going arcan specced after having 2 T5 and having 1200-1400 sustained DPS (with SP and shammies in group for mana restore :D) on bosses will like paladin tanks more than warriors.


Btw, for bosses whose DPS is not increasing in time like Gruul, I don't see extra 1.5-2k HP of a warrior as a huge plus. If it's only this bit that saved him from dying, then, well, I don't think that tank is geared enough. In encounters where tank can have 18k bursts before heals land and where pala die but not warrior, 20k bursts should be also possible imho. Also, if it's not a single hit that makes such a damage and rather a serie of damaging events, than have you ever think about the fact that ardent defender makes pala "effective" HP about 15-20% bigger.

Instead of pala tanking per se, I would rather like to discuss this point - how big is effective HP assuming that boss X hits for Y in Z sec interval if we take into account this talent.

Yes, warrior on progression boss make it safer. But if you wipe at 5% due to the fact DPS can't go all out - you may think about using tankadin for better aggro generation.

Palados
07-07-2007, 01:15 PM
Simple calculations - imagine boss hits for 3k after mitigation by armor and talents and paladin has 18.4 k HP. Assume each hit lands. Then after 4 hits paladins has 6.4 k HP that will move him under 35% (6.44k) mark. After this boss hits for 2.1k (minus 30%). Paladin can survive 3 full hits. Warrior in order to survive 7 hits for 2.9k (more mitigation from stance) should have 20.3k+ HP.

So, in this very simplified situations Paladin with 18.4k HP is as good as warrior with 20.4k HP (both survive 7 hits and have 100HP left). Am I wrong or right :D?

Palados
07-07-2007, 01:19 PM
Now, imagine that DPS is a constant stream. Then paladin will survive for 0.65HP/DPS+0,35HP/0.7DPS=(0.65+0.5) HP/DPS=1.15HP/DPS

So under assumption that dps is constant paladin with AD have 15% more effective HP (I now wonder if numbers 70% damage after 35%HP was choosen specially to make it an exact 15% increase).

So mathematically you can add 15% to paladins HP if you compare with warriors (a bit less due to 4% difference in damage mitigation, but still). And it's only psychological fact imho to feel less safe when pesron has less max HP. Even if AD would make paladins immune to any damage under 35% people still would like max HP of warriors simply because they feel safer.

infneon
07-07-2007, 04:23 PM
The easiest way for them to fix is our HP problems is make Ardent defender ability not be able to be leap frogged. Currently if you are even 1hp above the AD level, it doesn't count. If they did this, warriors would have a real threat to their MT spots

Valoran
07-07-2007, 09:47 PM
The easiest way for them to fix is our HP problems is make Ardent defender ability not be able to be leap frogged. Currently if you are even 1hp above the AD level, it doesn't count. If they did this, warriors would have a real threat to their MT spots
They would still be worse tanks in every single way bar threat generation.

Flawless
07-07-2007, 10:21 PM
Yes, warrior on progression boss make it safer. But if you wipe at 5% due to the fact DPS can't go all out - you may think about using tankadin for better aggro generation. I haven't heard of many cases where warrior threat generation is the ball breaker at bosses.

If DPS is holding back you might want to try a prot tank ¬_¬

Taurusos
08-07-2007, 08:07 AM
A very nice post Tiamat.

Good read.

/Tau

sageclaire
09-07-2007, 09:16 AM
I think the new mage "trend" of going arcan specced after having 2 T5 and having 1200-1400 sustained DPS (with SP and shammies in group for mana restore :D) on bosses will like paladin tanks more than warriors.
.

well, as a clarification to your notation, arcane specced mage like us has -40% aggro redux talent on T1 level ( arcane subtlety ). So we dont really get any aggro increment what so ever, infact we lost most of our aggro, compared to the basic 10-48-3 raid spec or 40 - 0 - 21 frost spec.

Palados
09-07-2007, 09:35 AM
They would still be worse tanks in every single way bar threat generation.

Hehe, but it should be like this. Tanking is survivability+getting aggro+aggro generation. Some tanks should be better in survivability, some - in aggro generation. It would be too imba to have pallies on par with wars/druids in survivability, beter in aggro generation AND being able to heal themselves, at least in theory (noone will want to loose bigger part of their mitigation due to casting a spell). Therefore in my opinion there is quite a good balance in tanking now. It is now better to have druid and pally OT in raid (that are also good in aoe aggro generation), that on bosses could go dps and healing plus buff the raid, instead of 5 prot warriors, for example. Paladins and Druids are classes that are supposed to do different jobs. No one will expect high DPS from prot wars even in DPS gear, while feral druids can be very good in it after tanking a trash.

For me the best tanking setup assuming 5 tanks are needed for trash is one prot war, one DPS specced war with good tanking gear, two druids and tankadin or two tankadins and druid. One druid or pally could be replaced by another DPS war. But one good prot in raid is enough. (btw, Nihilum has only one prot war in guild, other are not even close to prot - 3 arms 35/23/3, 1 hybrid 33/28/0, 1 fury 18/43/0).

sageclaire
09-07-2007, 10:32 AM
They would still be worse tanks in every single way bar threat generation.

Tbh, its intended to be like that. the holy trinity of set up -> tank ( parent class is prot warrior ) + dps + healer ( parent class are healing priests ). Do u expect blizz to make a HYBRID class be SAME as the parent class? if paladins have same armour mitigation, same hp, same owh heck button ( well they have LoH, 40mins CD with prot tree ), why would peepz roll for prot-warrior if paladins can be exactly the same in tanking + ability to ACTUALLY heal themselves? That'll be OP.
Now try get a party to SH heroic with a GOOD GEARED tankadin with ardent defender, holy shield n such ) and place ur input here. seems to me u r making some pre-judgements here ...

Valoran
09-07-2007, 11:46 AM
Now try get a party to SH heroic with a GOOD GEARED tankadin with ardent defender, holy shield n such ) and place ur input here. seems to me u r making some pre-judgements here ...
You just agreed with me.

Then said I was making pre-judgements.

Tanking does indeed involve multiple things, it's the sum of being able to survive and keeping the mob on you. Generally aggro is the one thing you have more control over. If your tank is being splatted, it's not always as easy to say "heal more". Thus warriors are currently the only viable main tanks in game for any form of meaningful boss. There are probably singular exceptions if a boss doesn't actually hit that hard, then again, it would probably be better tanked by a SL warlock over a paladin if that was the case.

Also palados, nihilum are mostly offspecced these days. You can bet they ran with as many prot warriors as they needed when it was required. Prot spec is always only 50g away.

Margelatu
09-07-2007, 11:51 AM
Btw, for bosses whose DPS is not increasing in time like Gruul, I don't see extra 1.5-2k HP of a warrior as a huge plus. If it's only this bit that saved him from dying, then, well, I don't think that tank is geared enough. In encounters where tank can have 18k bursts before heals land and where pala die but not warrior, 20k bursts should be also possible imho. Also, if it's not a single hit that makes such a damage and rather a serie of damaging events, than have you ever think about the fact that ardent defender makes pala "effective" HP about 15-20% bigger.


A tank cannot be judged alone. The combo tank+healers should be judged everytime.

The extra stamina is always a big plus.
To be honest the decisive plus. As long the avoidance is at a DECENT level the stamina is everything.

On end game raids the healers cannot heal like this :
- a , the tank blocked , I will wait with my heal.
- aha ,is a dodge , I will keep my mana.
- ok , this time he was hit 13k , let's heal.

No way. Starting with Maulgar everything is different. They must do blind heals to keep the tank alive.
When you know a 12k hit COULD land you cannot hope the avoidance will act. Only if you like to play lottery. You got to heal no matter what. If the tank avoid it is ok , you just did a overheal. If the tank take it you cannot aford not to have a healing landing just in the next second. Cause next hit can kill him and is a wipe.

So having more avoidance is not everything . You didn't spare the healers mana. But having more stamina mean less overheals , a biger life bar to heal.

Simple calculations - imagine boss hits for 3k after mitigation by armor and talents and paladin has 18.4 k HP. Assume each hit lands. Then after 4 hits paladins has 6.4 k HP that will move him under 35% (6.44k) mark. After this boss hits for 2.1k (minus 30%). Paladin can survive 3 full hits. Warrior in order to survive 7 hits for 2.9k (more mitigation from stance) should have 20.3k+ HP.

So, in this very simplified situations Paladin with 18.4k HP is as good as warrior with 20.4k HP (both survive 7 hits and have 100HP left). Am I wrong or right


As a tank you cannot survive alone . It doesn't matter if you can resist 3 hits or 5 hits once you are at 15%. If those 3 or 5 hits land with you still at 15% buy new and better healers. ;)

Backupo
09-07-2007, 01:26 PM
There are no parent classes anymore. This was stated by Blizzard almost a year ago now.

Valoran
09-07-2007, 01:45 PM
There are no parent classes anymore. This was stated by Blizzard almost a year ago now.
This may be the intention, but it doesn't really hold true for tanking. Nor does "blizzard sayz this so it must be true" have any place in such a discussion.

Palados
09-07-2007, 04:59 PM
Explain me why parent class in healing is still the holy priest and I will eat my hat. I can agree that parent class for tanking is still a warrior. It's just matter of a class balance, I would rate warrior only 10% above druid/pala, not more and this is just a compensation of not having a raid buffs. But as soon as priests got a possibility to be a good DPSers, healing specs and itemization were changed to move them out of "parent" spot. Now equally geared druid/paladin/shammy could be on par with priest. They all are "specced" in different types of healing, but still - general healing performance is about the same. Earlier this situation would make priests useless - same healing but less raid buffing (different blessings, totems, etc) would favor shammies/paladins in raids. Now different priest builds benefit raids in different ways (like imp spirit from disc tree, good healing performance and some tricks from a deep holy, etc).

Blizzard added more variety. That is very good and now actually you could have quite an interesting combos of specially specced classes benefiting each other in the same group/raid. Get surv hunter with a high crit/agi in melee group and it will add about 150+ AP almost constantly. And so on. You now benefit from having tankading in a group (at the very least - Blessing of Sanctuary). You benefit from Shadow Priests in raids. Most spec now bring some usefulness. And, of course, they don't want to make old classes/specs obsolete. That's why I am sure that prot warriors will always be slightly preffered as main tanks, for example. And holy priest will be always welcome as healers. It just won't be optimal to bring 5 prot wars and 8 holy priests anymore. And that is the best what TBC brought to us imho.

Flawless
09-07-2007, 05:07 PM
Explain me why parent class in healing is still the holy priest and I will eat my hat. HoTs group heals lower costing big heals stamina buff

Palados
09-07-2007, 05:17 PM
There are probably singular exceptions if a boss doesn't actually hit that hard, then again, it would probably be better tanked by a SL warlock over a paladin if that was the case.


There is quite a bug difference to have uncrashable and uncrittable tank in plate and crushable/crittable cloth wearer. For me boss not hitting hard and fitting tankadins is 3-4k mitigated by plate about once a second, without special moves like 12k hits etc. That would be about 6-8k mitigated by cloth. Now imagine two crits in a row. Both lock and pet are dead. that's about it.

Also, when you write "exceptions if a boss doesn't actually hit that hard" what do you actually mean? Let's look at 20k HP warrior and 18k HP paladin. How hard should he hit so you wouldn't use tankadin? As it was already wrote here - actual mitigation of warrior and paladin is about the same, tankadins are even better on fast hitting bosses due to more charges in their "blocking" ability. It's more HP that make warriors better MT, not better mitigation that is actually not the case. Therefore I don't see how one compare tankadins and SL lock. I doubt that even T6 geared lock could tank Vashj or Leotheras in melee phase.

Palados
09-07-2007, 05:21 PM
HoTs group heals lower costing big heals stamina buff

Blessings, auras, instant cast holy shock that heal about as much as flash healing and has 15sec CD, fast healing (with T5 set bonus having 1.75sec Holy Light cast with over 30% crit owns any other healing spell in game), big crit chanse - it's about paladins. Druids can have 3 types of HoTs. Etc. Holy priests are no more "main" healers while other are "off" healers. All healing classes are equally good now.

And you can't just say "lower costing big heals" without considering priest and paladin mana regen. They are lower costing because paladins mana regen is better.

Flawless
09-07-2007, 05:27 PM
how many full rank holy lights can you put out with out running oom? and no they're don't just cost more based on mana regen, or FoL wouldn't cost less than 200 mana would it?

Valoran
09-07-2007, 05:40 PM
There is quite a bug difference to have uncrashable and uncrittable tank in plate and crushable/crittable cloth wearer. For me boss not hitting hard and fitting tankadins is 3-4k mitigated by plate about once a second, without special moves like 12k hits etc. That would be about 6-8k mitigated by cloth. Now imagine two crits in a row. Both lock and pet are dead. that's about it.

Also, when you write "exceptions if a boss doesn't actually hit that hard" what do you actually mean? Let's look at 20k HP warrior and 18k HP paladin. How hard should he hit so you wouldn't use tankadin? As it was already wrote here - actual mitigation of warrior and paladin is about the same, tankadins are even better on fast hitting bosses due to more charges in their "blocking" ability. It's more HP that make warriors better MT, not better mitigation that is actually not the case. Therefore I don't see how one compare tankadins and SL lock. I doubt that even T6 geared lock could tank Vashj or Leotheras in melee phase.
You wouldn't tank as a warlock in t6, for a start.

Palados
09-07-2007, 06:54 PM
how many full rank holy lights can you put out with out running oom? and no they're don't just cost more based on mana regen, or FoL wouldn't cost less than 200 mana would it?

Just casted 22 non stop holy lights without any raid buff but with BoW up plus divine illumination. Now, how many big heals will priest cast before oom while chaincasting using only spirit as self buff?

And point about mana regen meant to show the pointless of comparing the number of casts that could be done without considering mana regen and mana conserving (divine illumination). Because without it my 22 casts would mean I have 18480 mana, while I have only about 10.7k. But high crit chanse and big mp5 gave me about extra 9 casts, thats almost half of what I have done. Paladins are only healers who can get mana while casting a healing spell (divine illumaination get 50% of mana and crit gives 60% of BASE spell mana back).

Palados
09-07-2007, 07:02 PM
You wouldn't tank as a warlock in t6, for a start.

Sure, it's true. But it was you who mention that a warlock tank is on par with a paladin tank. At least I get it from your words.

Comparing tankadin with SL warlock tank is a slap in paladins face imho. It's the same like say "There are probably singular exceptions if a boss doesn't actually hit that hard, then again, Mt would probably be better healed by Shadow Priest over a healerdine if that was the case."

Valoran
09-07-2007, 07:23 PM
Sure, it's true. But it was you who mention that a warlock tank is on par with a paladin tank. At least I get it from your words.

Comparing tankadin with SL warlock tank is a slap in paladins face imho. It's the same like say "There are probably singular exceptions if a boss doesn't actually hit that hard, then again, Mt would probably be better healed by Shadow Priest over a healerdine if that was the case."
I meant you would tank in PVP gear.

I don't really care if you're insulted by a factual statement.

Backupo
09-07-2007, 07:46 PM
This may be the intention, but it doesn't really hold true for tanking. Nor does "blizzard sayz this so it must be true" have any place in such a discussion.


It was aimed at Eclairs post.

Palados
09-07-2007, 09:18 PM
I don't really care if you're insulted by a factual statement.

Well, I don't care if you care either. But imho it's not a factual statement. Let first check if we agree in 3 basic statements. One can not discuss things using different assumptions and axiomatic.

1. Mitigation of good and equal geared tankadin and prot tank is about the same (armor and dodge+parry+block), difference is just several % that is effectively washed out by more effective tankadin block talent. (Our warrior MT and paladin OT have armor and sum as: 15719/62.19% and 15107/57.44%).

2. Paladins have about 2k HP less than warriors. (For example our warrior MT has 14064 HP fully unbuffed and our paladin OT - 12047 HP).

3. Paladins have better aggro generation that also scales better.


So in (1) they are about equal, (2) is warrior strength, (3) is paladin strength. If you agree on this 3 points we can biuld the discussion around them. If you want to discuss warlocks - can do it too, but please with some numbers. Calling them as effective tanks as tankadins means they are as good both in aggro generation and in mitigation. You just tell us it's a factual statement, not giving any numbers to prove it.

Btw, probably you could change your mind about tankadins after doing full kara run with pala MT or SH heroic run with tankadin. You can also try a SL lock and tell us from your own experience how good he is.

One more thing to mention, pala in video - Linadillar - has only one T5, shoulders.

P.S. I know that warlocks are supposed to tank in some rare encounters. But it's not correct to compare then with tankadins without giving any numbers or vids of locks tanking 25man bosses (do not count leo or illidan tanking in specific phases or, say, twin emperors).

P.P.S. Can Tiamat post here his armor/dodge+block+parry/HP unbuffed plz?

thurlog
09-07-2007, 10:26 PM
I prefer tankadins. That way i get BoS and go full out :)

sageclaire
09-07-2007, 10:28 PM
well, palados, we all know that its USELESS to speak bout facts with someone its crystal-clear HASNT get to try a PALADIN tank yet, and he is just speaking gibberish n such.. talking lock tanking is better n such ... really go get a clue, try a tankadin and then, speak about YOUR experience...
I was like him/her/it before i tried a paladin tank, thinking of how stupid n retarded tankadins are, but heck tiamat REALLY changed my mind about tankadins.

Valoran
09-07-2007, 10:34 PM
Well, I don't care if you care either. But imho it's not a factual statement. Let first check if we agree in 3 basic statements. One can not discuss things using different assumptions and axiomatic.

1. Mitigation of good and equal geared tankadin and prot tank is about the same (armor and dodge+parry+block), difference is just several % that is effectively washed out by more effective tankadin block talent. (Our warrior MT and paladin OT have armor and sum as: 15719/62.19% and 15107/57.44%).
Correct if you add the values up, but doing so shows lack of understanding as block rating is less valuable than the rest. They only match the mitigation, without having the HP or ohshit buttons to make up for it.

2. Paladins have about 2k HP less than warriors. (For example our warrior MT has 14064 HP fully unbuffed and our paladin OT - 12047 HP).
This is true for karazhan/gruul levels of gear. Once you get to t5 content and beyond, this gap becomes even bigger.

3. Paladins have better aggro generation that also scales better.
True to a point. However due to itemisation, the scaling of paladin threat is actually very poor, since they need so many stats to increase their threat generation, they can't really scale tps without gimping migitation - item budgets just don't allow for spell damage and hit rating whilst giving the same levels of block, dodge, parry, armour and stamina.


So in (1) they are about equal, (2) is warrior strength, (3) is paladin strength. If you agree on this 3 points we can biuld the discussion around them. If you want to discuss warlocks - can do it too, but please with some numbers. Calling them as effective tanks as tankadins means they are as good both in aggro generation and in mitigation. You just tell us it's a factual statement, not giving any numbers to prove it.
I've done my reading on this, it's no skin of my back if you choose to believe me or not in this. If you're that interested in finding out more information and you don't mind spending some time reading. Check this thread (http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=10440) out.

Btw, probably you could change your mind about tankadins after doing full kara run with pala MT or SH heroic run with tankadin.
I'm not interested in farm bosses by people geared up in content further progressed than the stuff they're tanking. That has never been my point. My point remains that if you're using a paladin for any form of meaningful progression boss, you're a retard. So far you've said nothing to disprove this.
One more thing to mention, pala in video - Linadillar - has only one T5, shoulders.
False.
At this point in time, Linadillar is using 5 pieces of t5 quality gear, whilst tanking t5 bosses.

Valoran
09-07-2007, 10:37 PM
well, palados, we all know that its USELESS to speak bout facts with someone its crystal-clear HASNT get to try a PALADIN tank yet, and he is just speaking gibberish n such.. talking lock tanking is better n such ... really go get a clue, try a tankadin and then, speak about YOUR experience...
I was like him/her/it before i tried a paladin tank, thinking of how stupid n retarded tankadins are, but heck tiamat REALLY changed my mind about tankadins.
lol.

Afaik, nobody here has had a paladin maintank on any form of meaningful boss. So by your logic everyone in this thread should shut up. Yourself included.

I'm amazed by your inability to read eclairs, and supposed inability to write anything without capitalising every second word. Might want to try increasing the font size too, don't think anyone realised you were shouting.

sageclaire
09-07-2007, 10:41 PM
lets just say, when i made the post earlier , i didnt say anything bout paladin beaing Mt1 at all. i said they r viable tanks at vashj or leo. and who the heck bring this discussion into this stupid n lame road ? take a guess. really, golf clapping should be the thing to do. now go /shoo and play at other place... and leave this discussion of paladin being able to TANK ( read the goddamned wordings kk ? ) for those like tau who even admitted it or others on giving positive replies. Thank you.

sageclaire
09-07-2007, 10:43 PM
http://files.filefront.com/mh+the+tankadin+mid+redwmv/;7895033;/fileinfo.html

nice video, really opened up my mind that pally can actually tank vashj and leo.

there.. my opening thread, for reference ofc.

miganto
09-07-2007, 10:55 PM
Valoran - You say you dont care about people tanking when they're geared well past the instance, well in our first week with people that had never been to karaz before apart from me (with no kara gear) i tanked up to and inc prince 8/10.

I'm sure you'll say something about 'but zomg karaz is easy, anyone can do it', if that's the case, why didnt every guild do it nearly first time? It's a tough place for new people, and yet we did it with a pally MT with maybe one or two karaz gear.

Karaz was classed as 'meaningful' at one point till the top end guilds geared up and moved on. I was told i couldnt ever think about tanking karaz, pallys suck. Then told i couldnt tank curator because zomg, he hits hard and pallys suck again. Then i was told i cant do prince. Well i did.

They are all meaningful bosses, and progression bosses for us and our gear. Meanginful bosses depend on your gear and progress, so yes, we have tanked meaningful bosses, not to you anymore, but most certainly to us.

When you guys move on to BT/MH, and 'if' we tank gruul/ssc/mag with karaz gear, will you then say that these bosses arent meaningful too?

We can MT all of karaz *fear ward needed ofc*, beyond, i do not know, but i was just clearing up that wrong point of yours.

Valoran
09-07-2007, 11:11 PM
Valoran - You say you dont care about people tanking when they're geared well past the instance, well in our first week with people that had never been to karaz before apart from me (with no kara gear) i tanked up to and inc prince 8/10.
There's a difference between doing an encounter for the first time for that group of people and going back after everyone has done it a dozen times. That's what I mean by progression bosses. New content that isn't on farm.

I'm sure you'll say something about 'but zomg karaz is easy, anyone can do it', if that's the case, why didnt every guild do it nearly first time? It's a tough place for new people, and yet we did it with a pally MT with maybe one or two karaz gear.
Nope, please don't put words in my mouth.

Karaz was classed as 'meaningful' at one point till the top end guilds geared up and moved on. I was told i couldnt ever think about tanking karaz, pallys suck. Then told i couldnt tank curator because zomg, he hits hard and pallys suck again. Then i was told i cant do prince. Well i did.Anyone who said that is an idiot. But at the same time, anyone who goes to tank prince as a paladin over an equally geared warrior is just asking for a harder time.

They are all meaningful bosses, and progression bosses for us and our gear. Meanginful bosses depend on your gear and progress, so yes, we have tanked meaningful bosses, not to you anymore, but most certainly to us.That's exactly what I said. Grats on reading.

We can MT all of karaz *fear ward needed ofc*, beyond, i do not know, but i was just clearing up that wrong point of yours.Grats. It would've been easier with a warrior. Please point out exactly what you're correcting, I don't see what I said that was incorrect.

miganto
10-07-2007, 12:12 AM
Not sure how to add someones quotes from your post too so i made it ** xxx **

**Btw, probably you could change your mind about tankadins after doing full kara run with pala MT or SH heroic run with tankadin.**

I'm not interested in farm bosses by people geared up in content further progressed than the stuff they're tanking.

Afaik, nobody here has had a paladin maintank on any form of meaningful boss.

There's a difference between doing an encounter for the first time for that group of people and going back after everyone has done it a dozen times. That's what I mean by progression bosses. New content that isn't on farm.

**They are all meaningful bosses, and progression bosses for us and our gear. Meanginful bosses depend on your gear and progress, so yes, we have tanked meaningful bosses, not to you anymore, but most certainly to us.**

That's exactly what I said. Grats on reading.

Please point out exactly what you're correcting, I don't see what I said that was incorrect.

You're saying that what we did were meaningful bosses, yet no pally has tanked a meaningful boss, so that's at least one contradiction.

You also say that progression bosses are bosses that is 'new content that isnt on farm'. Well it was our first week, and not on farm. If you say that others farm it, then so what? For us, it wasnt on farm, and was new content, so for us it was a progression boss. Yet when someone says about a pally tanking it, *which was a progression boss for me*, you say you're not interested in farmed bosses? :S

Like i said, it was progression, we werent even geared from the instance, let alone past it, it was our first time there as a group, and for all 10 of us, our first time on that boss. So it was very meaningful and progressive based on our gear and experience.


So, basically, you agree i did a progressive meaningful boss, but paladins have yet to do that, you think i need congratulating on reading, yet you contradict and dont see it nor remember, and need pointing out what was wrong.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 12:40 AM
You're saying that what we did were meaningful bosses, yet no pally has tanked a meaningful boss, so that's at least one contradiction.
Nope, I said that doing so was stupid if there was an equally geared warrior available. The comment aimed at eclairs was that original don't use paladins as main tanks either.

You also say that progression bosses are bosses that is 'new content that isnt on farm'. Well it was our first week, and not on farm. If you say that others farm it, then so what? For us, it wasnt on farm, and was new content, so for us it was a progression boss. Yet when someone says about a pally tanking it, *which was a progression boss for me*, you say you're not interested in farmed bosses? :S

Like i said, it was progression, we werent even geared from the instance, let alone past it, it was our first time there as a group, and for all 10 of us, our first time on that boss. So it was very meaningful and progressive based on our gear and experience.
Grats for making it harder on yourself. It would've been easier with a prot warrior. At no point did I say it wasn't possible, this is where your reading skills fail.

So, basically, you agree i did a progressive meaningful boss, but paladins have yet to do that, you think i need congratulating on reading, yet you contradict and dont see it nor remember, and need pointing out what was wrong.Your reading skills clearly fail. Please point out in quotes exactly the points you're contradicting.

Karabella
10-07-2007, 09:00 AM
Actually, as someone in Tauton's group, i can say that for me it's easier to work with him as a pally tank than it is with a warrior/druid. It's easier to heal him, there is a much better aggro control, not to mention the occasional Judgment of Wisdom that helps alot with mana regeneration. We are a good group it seems, based on our fast progress, but i doubt we'd have come this far in such a short time with a prot warrior.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 09:29 AM
Actually, as someone in Tauton's group, i can say that for me it's easier to work with him as a pally tank than it is with a warrior/druid. It's easier to heal him, there is a much better aggro control, not to mention the occasional Judgment of Wisdom that helps alot with mana regeneration. We are a good group it seems, based on our fast progress, but i doubt we'd have come this far in such a short time with a prot warrior.Easier to heal someone with worse mitigation and a smaller health pool, that makes sense.

Judgements aren't restricted to the protection tree, if mana is an issue at all the other paladin(s) in your raids should be doing just that.

Thanks, you really brought alot to this discussion.

Love how this has gone from "paladins are viable main tanks" to "paladins are better main tanks than warriors".

Karabella
10-07-2007, 09:56 AM
you're very condescending for no reason, but we'll leave that aside for now.

I said it's easier for me to heal him, and that's true, so i don't really care what makes sense in your eyes and what doesn't.

I was referring to you saying "grats for making it harder on yourself". I disagree that we did, so you saying "you really brought alot to this discussion", well... if i'm saying you're wrong, i think i did.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 10:20 AM
Your entire post could be summed up as "lolno". That's not very meaningful.

You *think* he was easier to heal, for this to be true, he would've had to be using better gear than a competing warrior. This information can easily be found out from the armory.

Edit: Looking at the armory, Tauton is just using a lot of warrior gear (no spellcasting stats), socketed with stamina. Move all that gear over to a warrior (even the righteous) and they would be easier to heal than Tauton and have around 2.2k more hp. Of course, their threat generation would be pretty rubbish with a Continuum Blade.

spikeyy
10-07-2007, 10:39 AM
Well Kara has been nerfed repeatedly since it was first done. I'm not sure how a pally tank would of done before that, way worse than a warrior imo. Also the gear available outside of the raid instances has been way improved.

There has been a lot of bollocks written in this thread by several people. But the biggest has to be

Mitigation of good and equal geared tankadin and prot tank is about the same (armor and dodge+parry+block), difference is just several % that is effectively washed out by more effective tankadin block talent. (Our warrior MT and paladin OT have armor and sum as: 15719/62.19% and 15107/57.44%).

About the same!!!! that 5% difference is a difference of around 12% in damage taken. That is a huge amount.

Paladins aren't suitable for MT jobs on progression stuff. If they were really better as some people have tried to claim, then where is is the paladin MTs for the "top" guilds. They will squeeze every small %age increase possible to succeed, and if paladins were better in a role they would use them. They really just aren't the best except for AOE tanking, which is useful in only a handful of places. They are worthwhile tho and a useful thing to have. Make sure they have nice healing gear as well and a willingness to respec holy (maybe dps gear and a retri spec soon ofc), so they are always contributing.

infneon
10-07-2007, 02:23 PM
so are we settled on "lol, heal nub" yet?

Haplo
10-07-2007, 03:18 PM
Nah.. need to build up to... "you elitist jerk of a val".... then some more ranting

Then its time for the "gief moar drama" posts and then... and maybe then its time for the "lol, heal nub" posts...

miganto
10-07-2007, 03:22 PM
Valoran - read what you put.


Valoran - Afaik, nobody here has had a paladin maintank on any form of meaningful boss


Miganto - They are all meaningful bosses, and progression bosses for us and our gear. Meanginful bosses depend on your gear and progress, so yes, we have tanked meaningful bosses, not to you anymore, but most certainly to us.

You replied - That's exactly what I said. Grats on reading.


Miganto - You're saying that what we did were meaningful bosses, yet no pally has tanked a meaningful boss, so that's at least one contradiction.

You replied - Nope, I said that doing so was stupid if there was an equally geared warrior available. The comment aimed at eclairs was that original don't use paladins as main tanks either.



So, wait. You say we've never tanked meaningful bosses, Then congratulate me on being able to read because i say that i have, then say that no, you're not contradicting yourself. Well whoever it was aimed at, you are wrong at least once. That was what i was correcting. If it was aimed at eclairs, say 'original', but you didnt, you said 'nobody here', well i am here, and i have tanked meaningful bosses. So, kindly, correct it, or stop telling others they are wrong, when you clearly are.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 03:25 PM
Is english your first language?

That point was aimed mostly at eclairs, but since you came out and said "hey, I tanked prince on our first kill" I did make the point of calling you an idiot, multiple times.

And that was before I looked at your gear selection.

miganto
10-07-2007, 03:28 PM
No, my 58th, but if that's all you can add i take it you concede?

*after your edit*

I dont care if you call me an idiot, i care that you are contradicting yourself then just insulting me for pointing it out rather than sorting it out. That's just childish, grow up and reply properly.

*after your 2nd edit*

I dont see what my gear has to do with you contradicting yourself, that's all my posts are here for, to let you know that we have done meaningful bosses. I dont care how stupid you think that was, or how stupid my gear is, it was done, therefore you are wrong.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 03:34 PM
No, my 58th, but if that's all you can add i take it you concede?

*after your edit*

I dont care if you call me an idiot, i care that you are contradicting yourself then just insulting me for pointing it out rather than sorting it out. That's just childish, grow up and reply properly.
So rather than argue the topic, you decide to fight over semantics when you realise the point you're making is wrong.

If you want to be anal about it, then yes I shouldn't have used the word meaningful, and only progression. Prince is not meaningful in any way shape or form. It was a progression boss, but at this point in time beating prince is no big deal, this is obvious by the number of "new" guilds clearing karazhan in weeks of forming - with paladin main tanks.

miganto
10-07-2007, 03:37 PM
Why does this week, or 5 years down the line matter when it was done? If everyones gear is sub kara when it is done, surely that makes it as meaningful as when it was done a month or so after launch? *ofc, if the encounter has changed lots it matters, but i dont think prince has changed much since a month or so after launch?*

A few of the new guilds have been to prince before, or have kara gear before attempting it, if they take weeks to take him down, then they'll have quite a lot of karaz gear by then. We didnt, our gear was sub kara, so it really was meaningful based on all of that.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 03:46 PM
Why does this week, or 5 years down the line matter when it was done? If everyones gear is sub kara when it is done, surely that makes it as meaningful as when it was done a month or so after launch? *ofc, if the encounter has changed lots it matters, but i dont think prince has changed much since a month or so after launch?*

A few of the new guilds have been to prince before, or have kara gear before attempting it, if they take weeks to take him down, then they'll have quite a lot of karaz gear by then. We didnt, our gear was sub kara, so it really was meaningful based on all of that.
Yes, Prince has been nerfed a lot - most notably on his trash ability and the damage output during p2.

Enough of a derail now? Do you want to talk about paladin tanking or boast about doing stuff the hard way.

miganto
10-07-2007, 03:52 PM
You again have missed the point. I'm talking about your points on paladin tanking, if it's derailing, then why even bother to bring it up to improve your point? You just keep changing what you say, insulting, and ignoring comments, there's really no point in bothering with you.

From what you originally said *before edits, and rephrases, and take backs and insults* about pally tanking and meaningful bosses - you were wrong, you agreed you were wrong, read up, it's all there.

And not once was i boasting, i was using my experience as proof.

Gwynin
10-07-2007, 03:53 PM
Its still stupid to use a paladin on a "new" boss eg one you have to learn, and with the gear you have (you're pretty much just a warrior with a mana bar and less hp than a real warrior) I'd rather have a warrior in pretty much similar gear (for reasons Valoran allready wrote).

Valoran
10-07-2007, 04:00 PM
You again have missed the point.
Since english isn't your first language and you seem to an an ineptitude towards reading and understanding I'll make it nice and clear for you.
I'm talking about your points on paladin tanking, if it's derailing, then why even bother to bring it up to improve your point? You just keep changing what you say, insulting, and ignoring comments, there's really no point in bothering with you.
At what point have I said anything other than using a paladin as a main tank was stupid. The quote you brought up where I said I wasn't aware of any paladin main tanks on progression bosses on shadowsong was a perfectly valid point that was true at the time. You enlightened me with your own status as a paladin main tank. Insert comments about how awesome that was and how much easier that would've been for your guild if you had used a warrior with similar levels of gear.

From what you originally said *before edits, and rephrases, and take backs and insults* about pally tanking and meaningful bosses - you were wrong, you agreed you were wrong, read up, it's all there.False.

And not once was i boasting, i was using my experience as proof.
Your experience only proves it was possible to tank prince with a paladin, which nobody has said was impossible. (edit: atleast on these forums, you do cite someone as telling you it was - also note the comment I made about that being a stupid thing to say)

Über
10-07-2007, 04:00 PM
This thread has clearly taken a turn to a better direction during last few pages.

It's starting to look like a basic SSE thread now, well done. ;)

Egminos
10-07-2007, 04:19 PM
aaand another nice, useful thread has gone to pieces. Lock please.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 04:34 PM
aaand another nice, useful thread has gone to pieces. Lock please.
About as useful as any other "hey guys I found a video of X doing Y in Z niche, how awesome is that!" thread.

Palados
10-07-2007, 05:23 PM
There has been a lot of bollocks written in this thread by several people. But the biggest has to be

...

About the same!!!! that 5% difference is a difference of around 12% in damage taken. That is a huge amount.


You are not reading it carefully. I wasn't claiming that our Warrior Mt and pala Ot have the same lvl of gear. Warrior is geared first ;). Plus more effective shield block wash out this difference.

To Valoran - paladins in general have more dodge/parry while warriors have more block ;). Other stuff - their spell damage threat is scaling with coefficient 1.9. So by simply using 200 spell damage sword they get threat gain as a mage that got about 380 extra spell damage (even more if mage has some threat reducing abilities). If you look at tankadin items from BT and compare them with warrior one, you will see that it's mostly not mitigation, but threat producing stuff (str) and some sta is replaced by spell damage. Also they have quite a bit less of block %, but about the same dodge/parry as warriors.

Anyway, it seems that I am speaking about nuts and my opponents about donuts. I am standing on these points and I am ready to discuss them:

A. Tankadins are viable as tanks in high-end PvP

B. Prot warriors are better MT

C. Tankadins are better OT than prot warriors due to many reasons - very nice aoe tanking, extra buffs to raids (like BoSanc and aura), possibility to heal on boss quite nicely in healing gear.

D. Tankadins are a way better than SL locks. There are many reasons for it. For example for healers it's easier to heal paladins, since damage that is soacked by pet has to be healed too, while damage mitigated by armor and other stuff is just mitigated. I don't claim that SL locks can't tank. But difference between them and tankadins is a way bigger than between tankadins and prot wars.

sageclaire
10-07-2007, 05:34 PM
lets just leave this be, all i intended to say @ 1st post, is that paladins can tank, and somehow it turned out to be pallies r better tanks than warrior ? I cant remember any statement saying paladins are better as MT1, all i said was they r viable tank ( be it maintanking or Offtanking ). Well some elitist jerk made this threat heated. TBH, just lock it. I know 99.999% of CoIs are well-grown up peepz who can give reasonable argument, so i am not directing this to them ( in fact i salute them ), but as for the person ( yea, he/she/it knows who he/she/it is ).....

also yea, i prefer prot-warrior tanking than protadin tanking, its just to say that if no prot warrior available to tank, i dont even mind on protadin tanking.

Palados
10-07-2007, 05:34 PM
for example look at boots from BT. Paladins get 4 more sta and 30 spell damage (57 effective spell damage) for 11 def rating and 1.1% to hit. Paladins doen't need to hit that much since their main threat source is holy damage, talented hit plus several more % is more or less enough.

Über
10-07-2007, 07:39 PM
I am standing on these points and I am ready to discuss them:

C. Tankadins are better OT than prot warriors due to many reasons - very nice aoe tanking, extra buffs to raids (like BoSanc and aura), possibility to heal on boss quite nicely in healing gear.

Not sure what you mean by the possibility to heal on boss so let me get this straight.

I suppose you mean the paladin is offtanking the trash while clearing thru them for the bossfight where the paladin will switch to healing gear and participate in the fight as a healer. And if you mean this, then wouldn't it be a better idea to just tank the trash with a protection warrior or a feral druid which you would probably be bringing along for the boss anyways? (depending on the fight ofcourse, but speaking in general)

I mean you could have a full holy paladin instead with much better healing abilities and the only thing the raid would be missing here was the blessing of sanctuary. (which in general has quite a few really important uses)

Palados
10-07-2007, 08:31 PM
Well, I mean instead of having three prot wars in raid you can have one prot, one tankadin and one druid. If boss require just one tank the second prot will most probably go dps. Feral druid would be better on his spot then. As well as if you have not very good healing and tankadin can cover it. I mean tankadin in second/third prot war spot, not as extra tank aside several prot warriors.

Muh
10-07-2007, 09:16 PM
lets just leave this be, all i intended to say @ 1st post, is that paladins can tank, and somehow it turned out to be pallies r better tanks than warrior ? I cant remember any statement saying paladins are better as MT1, all i said was they r viable tank ( be it maintanking or Offtanking ). Well some elitist jerk made this threat heated. TBH, just lock it. I know 99.999% of CoIs are well-grown up peepz who can give reasonable argument, so i am not directing this to them ( in fact i salute them ), but as for the person ( yea, he/she/it knows who he/she/it is ).....

also yea, i prefer prot-warrior tanking than protadin tanking, its just to say that if no prot warrior available to tank, i dont even mind on protadin tanking.

Valoran is just saying that even though they can be viable tanks, he would never let a paladin tank a boss needed for progression because the same encounter would be easier with a warriortank.
It's not that hard and he's not trying to be a jerk.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 09:19 PM
Other stuff - their spell damage threat is scaling with coefficient 1.9. So by simply using 200 spell damage sword they get threat gain as a mage that got about 380 extra spell damage (even more if mage has some threat reducing abilities). If you look at tankadin items from BT and compare them with warrior one, you will see that it's mostly not mitigation, but threat producing stuff (str) and some sta is replaced by spell damage. Also they have quite a bit less of block %, but about the same dodge/parry as warriors.
Those numbers are meaningless. There are different base threat values, cast times and coefficients on all the spells involved, the values of threat generated do not scale in as simple a manner. Anyway, nobody has said anything negative about threat generation (quite the opposite actually). But that comparison was totally pointless.

A. Tankadins are viable as tanks in high-end PvP (presuming you mean pve)
They are viable. It's just stupid to use it on a boss you're learning over an equally geared warrior.
B. Prot warriors are better MTCorrect
C. Tankadins are better OT than prot warriors due to many reasons - very nice aoe tanking, extra buffs to raids (like BoSanc and aura), possibility to heal on boss quite nicely in healing gear.
Depends what you're OTing. If it hits hard, no, if it doesn't hit hard and requires good threat generation on it, yes. Generalisations are bad.
D. Tankadins are a way better than SL locks. There are many reasons for it. For example for healers it's easier to heal paladins, since damage that is soacked by pet has to be healed too, while damage mitigated by armor and other stuff is just mitigated. I don't claim that SL locks can't tank. But difference between them and tankadins is a way bigger than between tankadins and prot wars.Depends how hard they hit, my point on SL locks was that their threat generation is better than that of a paladin, so can also be considered offtanks in situations where they can be kept alive. Nowhere did I say they were better as tanks in a blanket statement.

lets just leave this be, all i intended to say @ 1st post, is that paladins can tank, and somehow it turned out to be pallies r better tanks than warrior ? I cant remember any statement saying paladins are better as MT1, all i said was they r viable tank ( be it maintanking or Offtanking ). Miganto seems to think differently, as do his healers.

Well some elitist jerk made this threat heated. TBH, just lock it. I know 99.999% of CoIs are well-grown up peepz who can give reasonable argument, so i am not directing this to them ( in fact i salute them ), but as for the person ( yea, he/she/it knows who he/she/it is ).....
If you have something against a point I have made, discuss that point. My arguements are infact reasonable and as they haven't been proven wrong, I presume correct. I'm surprised you have referenced elitestjerks, as it's quite clear you don't read those forums. The thread I linked discussing the viability of paladins as main tanks actually makes for an interesting read, even if some people find the conclusions drawn offensive.

sageclaire
10-07-2007, 09:33 PM
urm, the elitist jerk i am referring here is not the elitist jerk forum ... but rather ... u know ... even muh got the "elitist jerk" part

Valoran
10-07-2007, 09:40 PM
urm, the elitist jerk i am referring here is not the elitist jerk forum ... but rather ... u know ... even muh got the "elitist jerk" part
I know you were referring to me. That doesn't change the points I made.

Über
10-07-2007, 09:56 PM
Well, I mean instead of having three prot wars in raid you can have one prot, one tankadin and one druid. If boss require just one tank the second prot will most probably go dps. Feral druid would be better on his spot then. As well as if you have not very good healing and tankadin can cover it. I mean tankadin in second/third prot war spot, not as extra tank aside several prot warriors.

Hmm, well I still can't understand that if the healing isn't sufficient in the mentioned raid setup, why not bring a full holy paladin to heal instead of a prot paladin in probably much worse healing gear than the full holy specced paladin. (If the boss requires only one tank like you mentioned)

And yeah, feral druids indeed don't have such a big problem with this even though they aren't specced perfectly for dps if they're participating in the raid normally as a tank but their dps still brings more to the raid than a protection paladin who's healing.

Ideally ofcourse you could replace both the druid and the paladin with classes/specs which perform better in given tasks and after the bossfight you could change the raidsetup for the next boss, assuming that you have somekind of a reserve online.

miganto
10-07-2007, 09:58 PM
Valoran where did i say that paladins were better than warriors as MT1?

Valoran
10-07-2007, 10:03 PM
My appologies, seems it was only Karabella.

Karabella
10-07-2007, 10:11 PM
Actually, i didn't.

For one, i was only talking about Tauton, not all paladins tanks. second, there is not one word in my post that says he's better as a tank, just that he has better aggro control (in karazhan obviously, as it's the only instance we're doing so far) and that it was easier to heal him. surely there are more aspects to being a tank than that?

sageclaire
10-07-2007, 10:14 PM
hence its crystal clear that we all agree that prot warrior are still better than protadin. Just that the vid i linked was only to show that protadin can tank. lets take it like that kk ;) ?

Valoran
10-07-2007, 10:17 PM
Actually, i didn't.

For one, i was only talking about Tauton, not all paladins tanks. second, there is not one word in my post that says he's better as a tank, just that he has better aggro control (in karazhan obviously, as it's the only instance we're doing so far) and that it was easier to heal him. surely there are more aspects to being a tank than that?
You said and I quote:
Actually, as someone in Tauton's group, i can say that for me it's easier to work with him as a pally tank than it is with a warrior/druid. It's easier to heal him, there is a much better aggro control, not to mention the occasional Judgment of Wisdom that helps alot with mana regeneration. We are a good group it seems, based on our fast progress, but i doubt we'd have come this far in such a short time with a prot warrior.
Easier to heal him than what? A prot warrior is the obvious comparison, since that was the one being made in this thread. A warrior geared equally will be easier to heal. Mitigation is the main thing against paladins, saying they're easier to heal implies that they are mitigating damage better, which is false. An obvious comparison was made as to which was better.

As a healer, you shouldn't be worried about aggro, any competant tank can hold aggro over healing.

thurlog
10-07-2007, 10:27 PM
i think it all boils down on other factors:
* how well is your tank geared compared to the other tank.
* Is your prefered tank online at all?
* does the fight need huge DPS or huge TPS?
* is the fight healing critical?
* is the boss a manaburner?
* etc. etc. etc.

theoratically and numerical you can compare for ages and go into details as much as you like, but practical you just have to go with what is best for that moment.

We do have 2 great tankadins and they do an excellent job (other tanks too *gotta say that before they tar and feather me*) and it gives us together with druid and warrior tanks extra options in tanking setups that we hadn't before.

Valoran
10-07-2007, 10:30 PM
i think it all boils down on other factors:
* how well is your tank geared compared to the other tank.
* Is your prefered tank online at all?
* does the fight need huge DPS or huge TPS?
* is the fight healing critical?
* is the boss a manaburner?
* etc. etc. etc.

theoratically and numerical you can compare for ages and go into details as much as you like, but practical you just have to go with what is best for that moment.

We do have 2 great tankadins and they do an excellent job (other tanks too *gotta say that before they tar and feather me*) and it gives us together with druid and warrior tanks extra options in tanking setups that we hadn't before.
The logic behind that is sound. But there are no bt/hyjal/tk/ssc bosses that are better suited to be tanked by paladins over warriors from a mitigation and thus progression point of view.

Flawless
11-07-2007, 12:27 AM
This is one of the best threads on SSE in a while.

Mojo
11-07-2007, 12:53 AM
This thread is retarded

Flawless
11-07-2007, 12:54 AM
I see people having a debate with out the usual bullshittery on SSE.

infneon
11-07-2007, 01:10 AM
I see people having a debate with out the usual bullshittery on SSE.

You expected a decent thread from SSE? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Edit: Oooo, cheers Thurlog, I might taunt a mob off you next time we raid for that

Flawless
11-07-2007, 01:37 AM
You expected a decent thread from SSE? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Edit: Oooo, cheers Thurlog, I might taunt a mob off you next time we raid for that
see my statement on previous page

Senex
11-07-2007, 06:43 AM
I wonder if any of the tankadin critics have bothered to watch that linked movie to the very end (and read the message in the credits). :rolleyes:

thurlog
11-07-2007, 07:33 AM
The logic behind that is sound. But there are no bt/hyjal/tk/ssc bosses that are better suited to be tanked by paladins over warriors from a mitigation and thus progression point of view.

Sadly I can't say anything about that, seeing we haven't downed any bosses there. :confused:

I'll get back to that when i can talk from an experienced PoV. :D

Haplo
11-07-2007, 07:42 AM
/moral on

points are made, move on..... Good discussion, but trying to make a point by telling people they cant read/type good english and that they are idiots (or whatever) is a bit overdone imo.
/moral off

But on the other hand... its SSE, so keep on flaming!!

Palados
11-07-2007, 09:32 AM
Well, I can understand why for some healers healing tankadin is easier than warrior. (btw, we 2 healed prince in both warrior, tankadin and druid tanking - druid was the hardest to keep up in P2 while tankadin was about as hard as warrior, at least difference wasn't that clear like in case of druid tanking and eating crits). Warriors have more "spikes" in mitigation. When their shield block is up, they are almost invulnerable, but when it is out of charges, they are back to 60ish% of mitigation. Paladins always have about 85% with their holy shield up. For some people it can be easier to heal someone with more or less constant damage taken even if you have to heal 10-15% more. I have seen healers who claimed than druids are easier to heal due to the very same reason. Also prince is fast hitting boss and eats charges of shield block quite fast.



2 Valoran I haven't seen trash mobs yet that hit for so much that paladins have to be replaced with warriors. Even sentinels in TK were OK for OTing with tankadins. Usually there is only one very hard hitting mob in a group (or alone as a trash pack) and it is tanked by MT.

2 Uber - not many guilds can afford to bring optimal class setup for trash then rotate another people for boss, then another for another boss etc to make perfect setups. Earlier in TBC we had only prot warriors and one druid tanking, now we have 2 wars, 2 tankadins and 2 druids and it allows us to have more flexibility and adds some variety.

Über
11-07-2007, 09:43 AM
Well, then ofcourse if you don't have enough people in guild or online to make even a decent raid setup then ofcourse it's better to take whatever you can for the raids if people want to raid. Hell, if people want to raid then they don't mind if the MT and the OT were both prot paladins if there isn't any druids or warriors around.

But earlier in the example which you mentioned that wasn't the case, it was just a bossfight where only one tank was needed, preferably prot warrior so there wouldn't be any use for the protection specced paladin in that example. That's why I said bringing a holy paladin to heal instead of the prot paladin in worse healing gear and worse healing abilities. And like I mentioned before, the only thing the raid would lose here was the blessing of sanctuary while gaining a lot more.

I'm not sure if you missed my point there earlier.

Haplo
11-07-2007, 09:47 AM
http://www.worldofraids.com/img/blacktemple/shahraz/tomeofthelightbringer.jpg

Hmmm pallies are made for tanking?? :P

Senex
11-07-2007, 09:56 AM
http://www.worldofraids.com/img/blacktemple/shahraz/tomeofthelightbringer.jpg

Hmmm pallies are made for tanking?? :P
Sadly, LoRepentance is still better. :(

Palados
11-07-2007, 09:58 AM
2 Über

No, I got it. I can agree with you in it. But it's not about people being online. If you are not going for server first, you usually don't rotate people mid-raid unless someone has to go. If boss require one tank but trash before him require more tanks we usually start with more tanks and stick to this setup. In this case if we, for example, need five tanks for some trash groups, I would not bring five prot warriors in the first case. Usually we go with two prots, one druid two tankadins or two prots, one druid, tankadin and DPS war OTing or one prot, one druid, two tankadins and DPS war.

Or take for example void reaver. He doesn't hit much. You can of course get 3-4 prot wars for him, but having tankadins will give you extra blessings (not exactly BoSanc, probably you don't have paladins with BoK around or not enough paladins to cast bok and bos and bow etc). I was on VR for three or four evenings and I never seen the wipe yet because of any of our tanks dying. Usually other people die and we get enrage. Or healers die and only after that tanks die. But while healers were up, tanks - independant on their class - were alive.

Palados
11-07-2007, 10:22 AM
Speaking about "funny" tanking - yesterday we had a rogue tanking one of the adds on Magtheridon full time on each attempt. It worked.

Senex
11-07-2007, 10:31 AM
hence its crystal clear that we all agree that prot warrior are still better than protadin
Indeed. However, we have yet to agree if it's the case of the game 'working as intended', or whether paladin tanking needs further rebalancing.

Über
11-07-2007, 10:33 AM
No, I got it. I can agree with you in it. But it's not about people being online. If you are not going for server first, you usually don't rotate people mid-raid unless someone has to go.

Oh good, I was a bit worried there that I had mispelled something again thus making it harder to understand. :)

And about it's not about people being online... Well, I was only speaking of my own experience in raiding. Surely not everyone does it like we do for various reasons but it does help quite a bit to bring a optimal raid setup to each boss.

Palados
11-07-2007, 12:11 PM
Indeed. However, we have yet to agree if it's the case of the game 'working as intended', or whether paladin tanking needs further rebalancing.

It doesn't imho. It is working as intended, If they would be as good as prot tanks, not 10% worse, then why you would bring prots if tankadins give extra blessing and aura? Well, maybe some tuning would be nice to have up to the point when tankadins would be used in "optimal" raid setups. Like give some extra nice raid buff or buff BoSanc even more.

Lednar
11-07-2007, 12:42 PM
Loladins r fien! Now l2p!

Eeeerm, right. Had to add something. Paladins are fine as tanker. Haven't had any troubles(except for those kiddies who want to tank as a Paladin ending up me getting shitloads of aggro...) I got both a Tanking Warrior and Druid now(Don't ask ^_^) and I want to try out Prot.

From my point of view: We get BoSanctuary for tanks, someone with BoK which not all Paladins got, another tank(!) and extra aura. What does a Warrior bring usually that is worth mention? Or Druids? Give the Paladins a chance now that Druids have gotten theirs!

Palados, your alliance right? Group up with my Druid sometime. I want to see some real tankadin actions!

Valoran
11-07-2007, 12:56 PM
Palados is holy specced, like most sensible raiding paladins.

/moral on

points are made, move on..... Good discussion, but trying to make a point by telling people they cant read/type good english and that they are idiots (or whatever) is a bit overdone imo.
/moral off

But on the other hand... its SSE, so keep on flaming!!I see nothing wrong with calling people idiots when they say stupid things. Or inquiring about their reading ability when they don't pick up on something you've written multiple times.

Senex
11-07-2007, 01:12 PM
It doesn't imho. It is working as intended, If they would be as good as prot tanks, not 10% worse, then why you would bring prots if tankadins give extra blessing and aura? Well, maybe some tuning would be nice to have up to the point when tankadins would be used in "optimal" raid setups. Like give some extra nice raid buff or buff BoSanc even more.
Good point.

Solution: Buff tankadin mitigation and HP to a level comparable with warriors, and give prot warriors extra utility buttons/raid buffs to compensate. This way, everyone will be happy.

Muh
11-07-2007, 01:28 PM
Yeah and while they're on it, they should just give every class 3 talent trees. one for tanking one for healing and one for dps. Make them all as good as another and let everyone do whatever they feel like :D -.0

Senex
11-07-2007, 01:56 PM
*shrugs*

Hybridization seems to be Blizzard's choice for the future evolution of the game. If you would rather prefer an enviroment with only three classes: Tank, Healer and Damage Dealer - well, tough luck.

Valoran
11-07-2007, 02:32 PM
I disagree, blizzard have shown no intention of trying to make hybrids the most viable form of any one specific thing (be it tanking, dps or healing), quite the opposite actually, raids benefit from running balanced rather than stacking a specific class.

The only enigma currently is shamans, since mass heroism has become the new carriers. Stacking shaman will increase your raids dps, up to a point. Given some micromanagement, 24 shaman (varying specs of course) and a tank would probably work quite well.

Kinshara
11-07-2007, 03:12 PM
I disagree, blizzard have shown no intention of trying to make hybrids the most viable form of any one specific thing (be it tanking, dps or healing), quite the opposite actually, raids benefit from running balanced rather than stacking a specific class.

I don't think it was implied that a hybrid would be best overall (certain niche fights, perhaps), but that they would be valuable enough to bring along for a given role instead of handing it all to "pure" classes.

It works quite well for all 3 shaman trees, feral/resto druids, holy/shadow priests, and prot/fury warriors... but many people are still reluctant to bring a prot paladin. I can understand it to a degree -- they have too many stats to focus on while gearing, so end up being slightly worse than the other two; it's mainly a problem of them not bringing something really worthwhile. Shamans, druids, and priests all have group buffs or effects that make the raid as a whole more powerful; paladins don't really have anything nice as deep prot to help in the same way.

Coldpwa
11-07-2007, 03:25 PM
It all very simply breaks down to

protection palas = 5-mans
protection warriors = raids

IMO.

Valoran
11-07-2007, 03:27 PM
I don't think it was implied that a hybrid would be best overall (certain niche fights, perhaps), but that they would be valuable enough to bring along for a given role instead of handing it all to "pure" classes.Yet at the same time, (as was the intention of my post) not bringing the so called "pure" dps/healing/tanking classes to your raid is detrimental to the point of just not being worth it. Having a balanced raid is certainly the goal blizzard seem to be aiming for.

In a slight rewording of my original post, blizzard have shown no intention of making rogues (for example) less desirable in a raid spot as a hybrid specced for a similar role.

Kinshara
11-07-2007, 03:35 PM
Yet at the same time, (as was the intention of my post) not bringing the so called "pure" dps/healing/tanking classes to your raid is detrimental to the point of just not being worth it. Having a balanced raid is certainly the goal blizzard seem to be aiming for.

In a slight rewording of my original post, blizzard have shown no intention of making rogues (for example) less desirable in a raid spot as a hybrid specced for a similar role.

I never suggested otherwise, I hope... the reason we like the hybrids being there isn't just what they do themselves, but what they enable the pure classes to do -- enhancement shamans are incredible melee buffers, and shadow priests are wonderful for keeping mana users going; feral druids and elemental shamans aren't quite so amazing as those two, but groups are still more powerful overall with them than without. So the pure classes will be ahead of the hybrids, but only because they're buffed by those hybrids.

Valoran
11-07-2007, 03:37 PM
I never suggested otherwise, I hope... the reason we like the hybrids being there isn't just what they do themselves, but what they enable the pure classes to do -- enhancement shamans are incredible melee buffers, and shadow priests are wonderful for keeping mana users going; feral druids and elemental shamans aren't quite so amazing as those two, but groups are still more powerful overall with them than without. So the pure classes will be ahead of the hybrids, but only because they're buffed by those hybrids.
Exactly, the synergy of having a balanced raid is too good in comparison to a raid with no hybrids or otherwise.

Kinshara
11-07-2007, 03:56 PM
Exactly, the synergy of having a balanced raid is too good in comparison to a raid with no hybrids or otherwise.

Which is the current problem with tankadins/retridins... they don't bring enough unique buffing power at present. Prot does have nice blessings(specifically Kings), but that's rather low in the tree -- so you end up with raiding paladins being mostly holy, with a few points in prot to pick up the blessing. Doesn't get them out of the single role.

To steal a concept from the shamans for now... imagine if paladins had something like unleashed rage, only for mitigation instead; a paladin with it could match a warrior without it, but having a paladin offtank would now make it easier for the warrior to tank bosses. Kinda hope we see something new and different, but meh...

Palados
11-07-2007, 04:31 PM
Tankadins have blessing of sanctuary too. It buffs MT as well.

Btw, they could do like they did with healing. There are four healing classes equally good in different aspects of healing and raid buffing. So you would like to have paladins, shamans, priest and druid healers at the same time. Now they have to make druids and pala tanks viable in different tanking roles, or adjust bosses to current roles. Like making a boss that has to be aoe tanked.

Valoran
11-07-2007, 04:53 PM
Tankadins have blessing of sanctuary too. It buffs MT as well.

Btw, they could do like they did with healing. There are four healing classes equally good in different aspects of healing and raid buffing. So you would like to have paladins, shamans, priest and druid healers at the same time. Now they have to make druids and pala tanks viable in different tanking roles, or adjust bosses to current roles. Like making a boss that has to be aoe tanked.
If it was even possible to make such a boss (would require very strange mechanics, such as a stacking debuff that meant you couldn't just tank the mobs with multiple tanks) this would be a retarded idea, since not every guild has a prot paladin.

Palados
11-07-2007, 04:57 PM
Yeah, probably. But it's not hard to make it. Make like boss than at 50% split into 20 thingies that have to die in about the same time for example. So they are aoe tanked and aoe killed.

Über
11-07-2007, 05:42 PM
Page after page I keep seeing the same thing being shown as a great thing for protection paladins, the blessing of sanctuary. Sure, it's something most prot paladins will surely have and yeah it might come handy in certain situations but it's not really limited to being a protection paladin that you are able to cast it to the raid.

And if you really need it you can just make one holy paladin spec to 40/21/0 and the raid will be all buffed with it. Only downside here being ofcourse that the paladin mentioned doesn't have divine illumination anymore.

Senex
11-07-2007, 09:30 PM
Which is the current problem with tankadins/retridins... they don't bring enough unique buffing power at present. Prot does have nice blessings(specifically Kings), but that's rather low in the tree -- so you end up with raiding paladins being mostly holy, with a few points in prot to pick up the blessing. Doesn't get them out of the single role.
"Improved Blessing of Salvation" as a Tier 7 Protection talent?

infneon
11-07-2007, 10:19 PM
The prot tree is bloated enough as it is

thurlog
12-07-2007, 08:21 AM
Yet at the same time, (as was the intention of my post) not bringing the so called "pure" dps/healing/tanking classes to your raid is detrimental to the point of just not being worth it. Having a balanced raid is certainly the goal blizzard seem to be aiming for.

In a slight rewording of my original post, blizzard have shown no intention of making rogues (for example) less desirable in a raid spot as a hybrid specced for a similar role.

Hmm.. so you only bring melee warriors that don't have a single point in prot (besides bloodrage or tact mastery maybe) to a PROGRESS boss?
Come to think of it.. warriors are tanks, rogues easily have higher DPS. No fury/arms warriors then. But are rogues the highest? Most casters outdamage any melee. No melee at all then!

You rraid to a PROGRESS boss would be then:
1 prot warrior
x needed healers
the rest all casters

?


I know i put it into the extreme, but this is actually what you say when you don't want to see a pala-tank as MT on a progress boss: because he lacks something (in this case health) compared to another class/build.

Valoran
12-07-2007, 11:15 AM
From a total min/max point of view there are some encounters where you would do more dps with that kind of set up. You're also selling melee a bit short there, melee dps isn't actually that bad at all, I would expect some melee classes to beat casters in quite a few situations although it does depend on the raids level of gear.

However, that's not what I said. Actually quite the opposite, note the part about balance being the route to success - that means taking both melee and casters.

The main tank is the largest bottleneck in your raid and if this is a paladin over a prot warrior, it will be harder to heal and is more likely to die. If you're learning an encounter, it's stupid to handicap yourself in this way.

Tiamat
12-07-2007, 11:35 AM
Ok let’s bring out some theory crafting for this one, for this purpose I am going to make some assumptions so bare with me.

We take a paladin and a warrior that are totally kitted out from everything excluding black temple and mount hiyal. I only have the exact stats from the paladin, so I am going to make an assumption about the warrior state that you are welcome to correct if it is relevant to the discussion (= not: the warrior should have 2% more dodge so you’re entire calculation fails).

According to my spreadsheet you can kit the paladin out so that he will have the following stats (stats are totally buffed, and no, I do not have this gear myself)

Paladin:
19k hp; 40% chance to be missed, parry or dodge (total avoidance) and 60% chance to block (including holy shield with libram), block value 600, bonus spell damage with oil 500 (FYI: spell damage gives a paladin around 0.6 tps per spell damage, but I am not going further into the tps specifics here)

Warrior:
21k hp, 43% chance to be missed, parry or dodge (due to probably different itemization) 30% chance to block (57% with shield block, more on that later); block value 600 (If anyone can give me some real stats on this I would be grateful, I think giving the warrior 2k hp should be enough though but it can of course be different depending on how the warrior stacks his gear)

First of all I would like to note that the paladin is uncrushable against a single target with spamming holy shield and will at least block every attack, a warrior can be uncrushable as well of course by spamming shield block which from my experience is NOT always up, holy shield is. Let’s assume the warrior would be able to spam shield block whenever it is up, if the boss hit’s faster then 2.5 attack speed (which is not uncommon and there are also a lot of effects and abilities that can increase boss attack speed, and there are also cleaves) then shield block with 2 charges over 5 seconds is no guarantee for not being crushed, holy shield with 8 charges over 10 seconds is a much better bet.

Now let’s take a hypothetical standard tanking situation, both are tanking a boss mob that hits for 4k after armor reduction (warriors and paladins have exactly the same armor values for the same lvl of gear), let’s assume they are not being healed and block every single attack. Since defensive stance has 4% more damage reduction we will say the warrior gets hit for 150 less damage.

An attack will land for 3250 damage after the 600 block value for the warrior and 3400 for the paladin. For the paladin we have the exception that he will take 30% less damage if he gets below 35% hp due to ardent defender. An attack will then do the following damage to him:
4000-(4000*30%)= 2800-600 = 2200.

This will look like this:


incoming damage hp after hit
paladin warrior paladin warrior
hit 1 3400 3250 15600 17750
hit 2 3400 3250 12200 14500
hit 3 3400 3250 8800 11250
hit 4 3400 3250 5400 8000
hit 5 2200 3400 3200 4600
hit 6 2200 3400 1000 1200
hit 7 2200 3400 dead dead

As you can see they will both die at the same time, even though the warrior has more hp. This is of course a hypothetical situation, but I think you get the point, the lack of hp is compensated by ardent defender and has as an added benefit that it will only activate itself when it is really needed, this is also why I say it scales good with gear. If you’re max hp is 14k it will only activate at 4900 (which at hard hitting bosses might mean you are still going to die) but at 19k it will activate at 6650, which will probably help you survive the “killing blow” better.

The reason I want to make this point is because people look at tanks with a “how much hp does he have” eye or "a paladin has 2k less hp and therefore sucks" statement. Things are a bit more complicated then that, uncrushability, block rating, armor (for druids), damage reducers etc. are almost as important but not visible on another players interface, which is probably the reason people only look at hp. Stacking stamina looks nice, but if you take huge damage spikes you are not really doing the healers a favor, a stable flow of incoming damage is much easier to heal and healers can follow a much more mana efficient healing strategy this way. So the statement “a protection paladin is harder to heal” is only as true as the gear level of the paladin you’re healing, on specific heavy physical fights (the prince fight in karazan is a very good example) I will dare to make the statement the paladin is easier to heal on the same gear level.

Now again I am not going to say that paladins should be guild MT, because warriors are more versatile and adaptable. But for some fights they have clear benefits over a warrior (i.e. bosses with a high attack speed, bosses that are more of a dps race, some special situation). Also, paladins make really good offtanks and even better multiple mob tanks, they also have ranged aggro abilities like avengers shield and exorsism (against undead and demons, which are abundant in mh and bt btw) and they even have a ranged taunt.

And as far as lack of oh shit buttons go:

“/cast [target=player] Lay on Hands”, the mother of all “oh shit” buttons (the macro I use is even called oh shit). And no you will not get mana issues, it gives 900 mana and against hard hitting bosses you’re mana bar will be full in no time after that anyway, mana pots are also no shame to drink (warriors would prolly kill for a pot that gives them the equivelant of 200 rage).

/Tiamat

thurlog
12-07-2007, 11:39 AM
hehe.. hence the "into the extreme" remark :p
where are the "bring a truckload of rogues" encounters :\

back to topic:
what about bears?

Valoran
12-07-2007, 11:51 AM
Till you link the gear used, the values you've given for both paladin and warrior levels of gear are purely assumptions and thus bear no weight in a "theorycrafting" discussion.

As for your discussion around ardent defender - 4k hits do not kill tanks with healers. To take the example of a boss we've both done, morogrim tidewalker deciding to tidal wave/earthquake/melee within a second or so is what kills tanks. This is something a warrior is better able to survive.

Lay on hands is indeed a nice oh shit button. Comparable to shield wall (even if not as useful for some situations). On a longer cooldown.

Though I don't see your point, if you acknowledge that warriors are more versatile and adaptable than paladins in a MT position, then you're pretty much making my point for me. I'm not trying to argue that paladins are shit, they're just worse than warriors.

Edit for thurlogs post
hehe.. hence the "into the extreme" remark :p
where are the "bring a truckload of rogues" encounters :\

back to topic:
what about bears?
If you're talking purely hypothetically in a total min/maxing sense then yeah, it's something you could do to drag every last piece of dps out of an encounter. However seems a pretty silly thing to do overall unless your guild is that hardcore. Chances are your guild won't have the available people to do that, and if you're spending a couple of nights wiping under such a situation - you'll have a large portion of your guild sitting on the sidelines wondering where their fun is.

Bears are nice tanks in that they can fit so many roles based on gearing. They can stick on some dps gear or even put a full dps set on and still tank something before swapping to cat and dpsing, while offering impLotP and a battle res. Or they can put full tank gear on and hold something for full duration. Their threat generation is also pretty imba, and that's not just limited to single mobs. Still, though, I wouldn't want to use a bear MT on progression bosses that hit hard.

Tiamat
12-07-2007, 12:11 PM
I could make a list of the paladin items used, I invite a warrior to give me some valid info of the stats he would have. (pre bt and mh that is)

In order for ardent defender to work in the theory I explained it does not matter if you get hit for 4k as in my example, get hit by tidal wave, earthquake, an ufo firing laserbeams, a gnome launched out of a cannon or a nuclear warhead, it will still work.

What my point is: MT is situational, you look at a situation and decide what the best tank is, be it a warrior, druid, paladin, warlock, rogue with evasion on, kiting shadowpriest or hunter etc. in the majority of the situations the best choice is a warrior, that is what gives them the title MT but that doesn’t make them the best tank for every encounter.

Valoran
12-07-2007, 12:15 PM
What my point is: MT is situational, you look at a situation and decide what the best tank is, be it a warrior, druid, paladin, warlock, rogue with evasion on, kiting shadowpriest or hunter etc. in the majority of the situations the best choice is a warrior, that is what gives them the title MT but that doesn’t make them the best tank for every encounter.
This is the point I also made earlier. Along with the proviso that from a migitation point of view, warriors were better on 99% of the bosses available in game.

Also, the premise of ardent defender is to prolong a tanks life. As mentioned earlier by infneon, it doesn't activate till the paladin is below that mark, meaning it can't be relied on.

Mithadriel
12-07-2007, 12:46 PM
Many many things.

Dude you make me weep for Old Skool AAB Officer forums.

Good thread, some very enlightening posts (Tia / Val). Best lunch hour I've had in ages.

Tiamat
12-07-2007, 12:59 PM
As stated earlier, that is why paladins have good gear scaling; the border at which AD activates will be higher as you’re gear gets better making it less likely a single source of damage will kill you above the boundry.

Also as mentioned earlier, paladins are crushing blow immune, I cannot emphasis enough on how much of an advantage this is (any warrior can tell you this). A paladin will at least block every attack (for about 600) pushing crushing blows of the table, physical mitigation wise this makes paladins better then warriors on a selection of bosses. Also, warriors frequently run into rage issues (and thus tps issues) as there mitigation goes up, paladins will only get more tps as gear scales. And more tps is important, dps classes will only start doing more damage as there gear goes up with yours.

I invite you to look at the benefits a paladin can bring: ranged high aggro abilities, uncrushability, high tps even at higher gear levels, good offtanking skills, that in some fights have a lot of uses. I am not asking you to agree with me (in fact, I know you will not, at least not on everything) and that’s fine with me.

Haplo
12-07-2007, 01:28 PM
How is a pallytank's mana on a boss that needs to be tanked for 10 mins orso.
Are manapots enough to get the mana that he needs for 10 mins or maybe even needs an innervate?

Valoran
12-07-2007, 01:35 PM
As stated earlier, that is why paladins have good gear scaling; the border at which AD activates will be higher as you’re gear gets better making it less likely a single source of damage will kill you above the boundry.This doesn't mean they scale well if you're running the assumption that as you get better gear, mobs hit harder.
Also as mentioned earlier, paladins are crushing blow immune, I cannot emphasis enough on how much of an advantage this is (any warrior can tell you this).Having tanked quite a bit on a warrior myself I can agree that crushings are nasty and that even with total spammage of shield block you'll still get crushed occasionally.

A paladin will at least block every attack (for about 600) pushing crushing blows of the table, physical mitigation wise this makes paladins better then warriors on a selection of bosses.The selection of bosses you're talking about are bosses which duel wield. These mobs have a much higher miss rate than normal bosses, meaning you can alter your gear slightly to help push crushings off the combat table. Any decent warrior will have multiple gear sets, which include both high stam and high avoidance sets. Due to the itemisation available for warriors, it's very possible to have a set of gear which almost totally negates crushings, pushing them off the combat table without shield block even being active.
Also, warriors frequently run into rage issues (and thus tps issues) as there mitigation goes up, paladins will only get more tps as gear scales. And more tps is important, dps classes will only start doing more damage as there gear goes up with yours.
Again, as your gear gets better the progression bosses tend to hit harder, rage is rarely an issue. If you're tanking something that doesn't hit very hard, there is again the option of scaling down your gear and even equipping some dps stuff with hit and ap to assist in your threat generation. As a rule of thumb, if a warrior is taking damage, they'll do decent tps. They do struggle a bit in offtank gruul/voidreaver type situations but paladins are in the same boat, since so much of their threat comes from blocking.
I invite you to look at the benefits a paladin can bring: ranged high aggro abilities, uncrushability, high tps even at higher gear levels, good offtanking skills, that in some fights have a lot of uses. I am not asking you to agree with me (in fact, I know you will not, at least not on everything) and that’s fine with me.
I see what you're saying. Just in the larger scale of things, there's no "wow" factor to paladin tanking. Ranged taunting and aggro generation abilities are very nice to have, though.


edit: Haplo: Innervate increases your spirit based regen. Paladin gear has very little (shouldn't have any) spirit on it at all, innervating a paladin will only give around 500-600 mana back. Paladin mana is generally ok, depends how gun ho they need to be with aggro. They also get mana back from being healed (not from overheal though).

Tiamat
12-07-2007, 01:48 PM
Spamming all aggro abilities (seals, judges, holy shields and carpets) a paladin use around 1500 mana per 10 seconds, we get 10% of the amount healed to us refunded (overhealing not included). So if the damage a boss does is 15k+ damage per 10 seconds this is no problem, and if he does less no one will notice you not using one carpet and a mana pot will also help. The only cases where I run into mana issues is on trash (which is np since you take brakes with the rest of the mana users) and on bosses like aran, where you are supposed to tank but are not getting hit a lot (i suck at aran and im not afraid to admit it, I rather go "aggro by healing" add tanking there ;-))

thurlog
12-07-2007, 02:04 PM
Aran has an aggro-table?

Tiamat
12-07-2007, 02:08 PM
If he is properly being counterspelled he will from time to time melee hit something, if someone not in melee range of him is the highest aggro person he will run to him, which sucks (not that he hits hard but because it screws up positioning and he can counterspell people) so it is in general better to have that person to be someone in melee range. A fury warrior does nicely here.

Valoran
12-07-2007, 02:13 PM
If he is properly being counterspelled he will from time to time melee hit something, if someone not in melee range of him is the highest aggro person he will run to him, which sucks (not that he hits hard but because it screws up positioning and he can counterspell people) so it is in general better to have that person to be someone in melee range. A fury warrior does nicely here.
Or you could just ignore aggro on him and never interupt the arcane school. Since he has already spent the mana (and the point of interupting is both to avoid damage and to avoid him spending mana too quickly) you gain very little from being overly interupt happy. He runs about randomly anyway after dragons breath.

Kinshara
12-07-2007, 02:34 PM
"Improved Blessing of Salvation" as a Tier 7 Protection talent?

Yeah... there's a reason I mentioned UR in that post.

A blessing is a passive buff, and doesn't require the paladin to do anything related to it after that. There were some shamans with plenty of points in enhancement pre-TBC to improve their totem buffs for meleers, but they were still asked to be healbots most of the time.

Now... UR requires a shaman to be actively dpsing on a target to keep the buff up for the group, or else it will fade; trying to mix it and heal/hit doesn't work well, as you can't guarantee a crit every time you try meleeing and healing gear won't increase melee crit chance much. So the shaman gets a dps spot to keep it up. For druids, you have to be in cat or bear form to give LotP. Shadow priests, you have to deal shadow damage to regen party mana.

Prot paladins... cast the buff once, then sit back and heal. Like I said, I'd love to see some completely new active tanking buff, but I don't know what would help most.

Paladins are ok as tanks, but many guilds just don't want them to serve in that capacity at present. Which is disappointing.

Palados
12-07-2007, 09:42 PM
Till you link the gear used, the values you've given for both paladin and warrior levels of gear are purely assumptions and thus bear no weight in a "theorycrafting" discussion.

Linadillar stats atm from armory, raid buffed:

Armor:
17130
Defense:
556
Dodge:
27.19%
Parry:
20.35%
Block:
17.81%
Resilience:
0

Prolly he has "dodge and parry" gear up.


Checked their warriors. Only 2 are 25man geared prots, but 1 is in FrR gear and another (guild leader) gives error when opening char info on armory.

one more thing. They just killed al'ar for the first time one week ago (5.07.07). So it's safe to assume Lin is MT due to having a lot of tanking stuf from ssc and bracers from VR. I hardly imagine Vashj on farm when alar was down only last week.

P.S. First solarian kill was at 08 July. VR died at 15 June. Leo died at 26th of June and Lin claims on hungarian forums it's world first palatank MTing him. It means they had him as MT there.

Valoran
12-07-2007, 09:48 PM
Linadillar stats atm from armory, raid buffed:

Armor:
17130
Defense:
556
Dodge:
27.19%
Parry:
20.35%
Block:
17.81%
Resilience:
0

Prolly he has "dodge and parry" gear up.
I think you need to read what I said again.

Palados
12-07-2007, 10:18 PM
well, you asked for values. I gave them :P.

Valoran
12-07-2007, 10:20 PM
I asked for both, and they would have to be the "best" from the same level of progression to actually mean anything. The numbers you gave were totally worthless as they have no relevance to anything at all.

Palados
12-07-2007, 10:23 PM
I tried to check their warriors gear, but could'nt do it. and since he is Mt it means they have worse lvl of gear. You can safely look and check mojo gear. You are a bit further in progress, since you killed bosses earlier, but it's more or less the same lvl of gear.

OrdeReturns
12-07-2007, 10:24 PM
The numbers you gave were totally worthless as they have no relevance to anything at all.


Those numbers and yourself have much in common Valoran.

Slashy
12-07-2007, 10:25 PM
i lolled ;D

Palados
12-07-2007, 10:26 PM
I dunno how to compare the best gear of some lvl - don't know an site with a dressing room (maybe can play with armory?). But here are mojo stats:

Armor:
16502
Defense:
504
Dodge:
18.98%
Parry:
16.16%
Block:
31.89%
Resilience:
31

he is not raid buffed, so bok and MotW should add some stats.

Valoran
12-07-2007, 10:30 PM
Those numbers and yourself have much in common Valoran.
You can't compare non comparable numbers. That sentence speaks for itself.


Palados, those numbers still aren't spot on, I mean they'd be close enough - but for an accurate comparison, the best gear for both would have to be theorycrafted.

Palados
12-07-2007, 10:36 PM
OK, let me ask a question. Is his mitigation compared to your MT after the week when you did sol/alar? I know that luck with drops can be different. But isn't his mitigation compared to one of the tanks for guilds sitting in Kael?

Stats for Auto MT astorath:

Armor:
16294
Defense:
514
Dodge:
18.35%
Parry:
17.79%
Block:
34.44%
Resilience:
0

with motw but without bok. You can see that Lin went for mitigation and Ast went for sta gems, he has actualy 3k HP more. But I would say that aside relative small HP Lin's stats are OK for MT whose guild is on "Kael" stage.

sageclaire
12-07-2007, 11:20 PM
its perfectly clear lina is the MT of his guild, and they guild opted for tankadin. from his buffed hp, its quite nice 17K hp. Seems to me like his guild progress is like most of our SSE guilds, with them on recently killing al'ar, hence no way in hell they have Vashj on farm ;). I am not gonna debate on this warr v paladin tank, since we all know prot warrior MT > prot paladin MT, but as i said it countlessly in the thread, paladins are viable tanks too, its just about giving them chance :)

Palados
13-07-2007, 11:02 AM
In 2.2 they buff... aggro generation. Well, anyway, I am sticking to the position that tankadins are viable enough to have in raids as OT, if you are not optimizing everything to high extend (but in this case many specific builds would be rejected and also when you optimize everything you would bring tankadins on trash and rotate them on bosses).

Arjen
13-07-2007, 11:43 AM
Just out of curiosity, Val, I'm wondering what your view is on a Pally tank when Zul'Aman opens up. I mean, if you had a situation where it was a choice between a Pally tank (who would be the only pally in the team), or a prot warrior, what would you pick?

I'm not criticising your views btw as I do agree with you. Just curious what you would rather have in that particular scenario. Pally buffs? or a (*edit* potentially) more solid tank?

Palados
13-07-2007, 12:37 PM
Got a link on forums for Hydross kill from tank PoV. Horde (!) guild has tankadin for tanking in frost phase. After tanking boss tankadin picks up all 4 adds that are aoed. It simplifies fight quite a bit. After getting boss back adds are tanked by him again (so he has 4 adds and boss on him). One can see that he grabs boss and 3 adds while 4th is grabbed by warrior who move him into tankdin aoe. And after a sec that add turns to paladin instead of war. If tanking all 4 adds and boss isn't "hard hitting" encounter then I don't know what is.

P.S. It's second hydross kill for this guild, so tankadin isn't SSC geared yet.


http://static.filefront.com/ffv6/video/fullpage.php?v=255771&autorun=true

spikeyy
13-07-2007, 12:44 PM
Well hydross hits like a fairy on first couple of marks :P

Palados
13-07-2007, 12:48 PM
Probably, but you would never see a warrior tanking him and all 4 adds, just because their aoe tanking isn't that good. And it makes encounter a tad easier, since it requires less tank coordination in case you have 4 tanks for each add. Also you can use 2 warriors for boss and one single tankadin for all adds.

spikeyy
13-07-2007, 12:55 PM
Probably, but you would never see a warrior tanking him and all 4 adds, just because their aoe tanking isn't that good. And it makes encounter a tad easier, since it requires less tank coordination in case you have 4 tanks for each add. Also you can use 2 warriors for boss and one single tankadin for all adds.

I was gonna post something a tad more serious, you replied too fast :(

It seems a very nice strat, only possible since the nerf. But it is one I would like to try, as would make the fight way easier. Even just the 2 warriors + pally on adds plan. But this again re-inforces that prot pallies are a niche role to use when AOE tanking needed.

One point I cant remember seeing in the discussion is imp. defensive stance. I dont believe pallies have anything like that. And not having that must make the pally tanking hydross + adds take a fair bit more damage.

But anyway, the crux of the issue has been covered. Warriors main tanks, pallies perfectly good offtanks tho why anyone would ever agree otherwise is beyond me.

Palados
13-07-2007, 01:27 PM
One point I cant remember seeing in the discussion is imp. defensive stance. I dont believe pallies have anything like that. And not having that must make the pally tanking hydross + adds take a fair bit more damage.

Spell warding talent - all spell damage is reduced by 2%/4%. Not as good as 6% from imp def stance tho.

sageclaire
18-07-2007, 10:51 AM
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=299014046&sid=1&pageNo=2
thats what the warrior counterparts said.

please look at this tankadin's HP, 21K >_<
http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/1113/wowscrnshot071207223240gn2.jpg

spikeyy
18-07-2007, 01:14 PM
He is using nightmare seeds on Magtheridon....

So what is that meant to tell us. Lets get a warrior with 30k hp after using consumables and Last stand!

sageclaire
18-07-2007, 02:40 PM
sorry tosh, i donno bout the seed :(

miganto
18-07-2007, 04:42 PM
Gives 2k health for 30 seconds i think :)

Still, 18.5k health is v nice for a pally, would be 20k for a warrior, and that's very nice i thought.

spikeyy
18-07-2007, 05:06 PM
Gives 2k health for 30 seconds i think :)

Still, 18.5k health is v nice for a pally, would be 20k for a warrior, and that's very nice i thought.

Tbh the guy in the picture has imp, food buff and flask on. Not counting the seed. That is a fair bit of additional hp.

edit. And commanding shout! My priest would be on 20k with all that :P

Gwynin
18-07-2007, 05:20 PM
14K hp unbuffed, pretty much only wears warrior tank gear, nothing special all in all

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Outland&n=Quantumdelta

Decebalus
19-07-2007, 09:59 AM
rofl... the famous Quantumdelta... the dps paladin... now wearing warrior tanking gear...

that guy is a complete retard... and if you want proof of that just check his posts on the WoW forums...

Chopper
19-07-2007, 10:19 AM
"famous"?

Who the fuck is he?

Kinshara
19-07-2007, 11:02 AM
"famous"?

Who the fuck is he?

One of the regular paladin forum whiners... some of it justified, some not. He's made a few good posts about class issues though.

Senex
19-07-2007, 12:03 PM
Well, Ardent Defender accounts for some of the HP gap; a paladin with 20K HP effectively has additional 3K extra 'hidden health'. Leapfrogging is still an issue, though.

Personally, I'll just keep gradually gearing up my tankadin and wait for 2.3.

miganto
19-07-2007, 01:12 PM
What's happening in 2.3?

Gwynin
19-07-2007, 01:26 PM
You loose your mana bar and become real warriors

Backupo
19-07-2007, 02:29 PM
Quantumdelta is a reasonably good Paladin who's made some good threads on WoW-europe and some extremely bad ones. Is it really a surprise he's using Warrior tank gear? It's far more efficient than using the poorly managed Paladin-tank sets.

infneon
19-07-2007, 03:06 PM
14K hp unbuffed, pretty much only wears warrior tank gear, nothing special all in all

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Outland&n=Quantumdelta

Does that mean that Shadow Priests shouldn't be wearing Mage and Warlock gear?

As long as the gear doesn't have "Class: Warrior" on it, a paladin is entitled to wear it

Gwynin
19-07-2007, 04:09 PM
No it just means that he isnt anything special

Senex
19-07-2007, 05:17 PM
What's happening in 2.3?
Huge buffs, desu.

miganto
19-07-2007, 10:30 PM
I thought the buff improvement was coming in 2.2?

Or, am i just being a tard?

Backupo
19-07-2007, 11:32 PM
Nope - 2.2 last time I checked.

Senex
20-07-2007, 10:55 AM
I thought the buff improvement was coming in 2.2?
2.2 was originally scheduled to be released much later, with Zul'Aman, functioning voice chat, paladin buffs, and the rest of bells and whistles, so it was going to be a few months before they got everything finished. Then Blizzard had a sudden change of plans (as it is prone to do), so instead of going 4-5 months without a patch, they're releasing a half-patch ahead of time, and what was going to be 2.2 will end up being 2.3.

Personally, I blame the orcs:

"FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW"
"...but this is merely a cosmetic effect that does not affect gameplay functionality..."
"FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW"
"...but it can't be changed with a quick server-side hotfix..."
"FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW FIX IT NOW"
"...*sigh* Ok, have a patch."

miganto
20-07-2007, 11:03 AM
Thanks :)

infneon
20-07-2007, 02:35 PM
No it just means that he isnt anything special

Ah yes, because your opinion is the be all and end all of every discussion

Flawless
20-07-2007, 03:35 PM
so shoot Infneon whats so special about him other than hes a tankadin in a raiding guild?

Valoran
20-07-2007, 03:41 PM
He's wearing t4 level tanking plate. There's very little special about that at all. Gemming/enchanting is infact indentical to a warrior.

Gwynin
20-07-2007, 04:25 PM
My laziness jumps with joy over the fact that ppl can post what I would have posted :D

Backupo
20-07-2007, 04:46 PM
Are you expecting him to wear far inferior gear just to make some people on another realm be surprised by him? He's using the most efficient tanking gear, anything less would make him 'special' in an entirely differen't way.

Valoran
20-07-2007, 04:54 PM
There are a fair few paladins out there with similar or better gear, that's the respect from which he's not special.

All this does is reinforce that fact that paladins need better itemisation - rather than the shock horror people seem to be having over paladins not healing.

Arjen
21-07-2007, 12:41 AM
yeah, they do. In all respects. More end-game mp5 please.

infneon
21-07-2007, 12:42 AM
so shoot Infneon whats so special about him other than hes a tankadin in a raiding guild?

I didn't say that there was something special about him, the fact that he was getting shot down for using "warrior gear" is what I disagree. People use the best gear available to them, no point gimping yourself because it's "warrior gear"

Flawless
21-07-2007, 03:21 AM
Well would you not be better gearing up a warrior with that gear than a paladin (quasmotoe guy aside) if you where in a raid gorup woudl you gear up a warrior or paladin with that gear for faster progression?

miganto
21-07-2007, 09:33 AM
I think what inf is trying to say is that it is 'tank' gear. Paladins (because of blizzard) do not have much end game viable gear that they can call their own, whereas the 'warrior' gear is viable. It doesnt have a class requirement, so imo, calling it 'warrior' gear is wrong. It's end game tank gear, that can be used by both classes, which does slightly favour warriors, but still isnt 'warrior' gear imo.

Possibly new gear with more sp damage instead of str will make gear more suitable for paladin tanks.

sageclaire
21-07-2007, 03:09 PM
well, boots of elusion, battlescar boots, girdle of the immoverable ( or whatever its called ) + the other tank gear with no < Class : warrior > is clearly not a warrior only tank loot. get that fact right first, before u start ur arguments. Yea, it favours the warrior better, but thats another story.

Flawless
21-07-2007, 03:17 PM
Oh god here we go, "it doesn't have warrior so its not warrior loot LOLOL"

fact of the matter is if you want to use a tankadin go for it they're not bad tanks, but you might as well gear up a prot warrior with that gear for easier progression.

On the other hand, no one really gives a shit if he tanked Leo and Vashj, its not like he was the one doing it for their first kills (as far as I know correct me if I'm wrong).

miganto
21-07-2007, 04:01 PM
How come when someone makes a valid point you dont agree with, you act like a tard?

Our replies were well said, Gwyn said the guy was wearing warrior gear, we agreed it favours warriors, but isnt warrior gear, it's more 'tank' gear, and you reply with 'here we go 'doesnt have warrior so isnt warrior loot LOLOL''

Makes it seem like our reply was actually like that, which they werent.

Backupo
21-07-2007, 07:04 PM
Oh god here we go, "it doesn't have warrior so its not warrior loot LOLOL"

fact of the matter is if you want to use a tankadin go for it they're not bad tanks, but you might as well gear up a prot warrior with that gear for easier progression.

On the other hand, no one really gives a shit if he tanked Leo and Vashj, its not like he was the one doing it for their first kills (as far as I know correct me if I'm wrong).

Except a Paladin tank brings an aura and extra blessings aswell as the ability to tank multiple mobs more efficiently.

Palados
21-07-2007, 07:06 PM
On the other hand, no one really gives a shit if he tanked Leo and Vashj, its not like he was the one doing it for their first kills (as far as I know correct me if I'm wrong).

You are wrong. I have digged an internet and found a hungarian forum where hungarian guilds write about their achievements. There Lin posted these kills (as first kills) with mentioning that they were first in the world to pala-tank them.

Arjen
21-07-2007, 07:25 PM
Except a Paladin tank brings an aura and extra blessings aswell as the ability to tank multiple mobs more efficiently.

Yeh, well said. People in this argument seem to forget about the standard (and prot-tree) abilities that a tank pally can bring over a prot warrior.

It's why I asked Val in a previous post about what he'd prefer in ZA; a prot Pally (who would be the sole Pally in the raid), or a prot warrior. Both have good abilities for raid progression.

Of course, this is in the (unlikely) event that a Holy pally isn't around. But just curious about reasons for and against your choice, Val.

sageclaire
21-07-2007, 07:50 PM
linadillar was the 1st pala tank to MT vashj on their 1st guild kill. Shows to us that paladins can tank ( i dont say main tank ok, so no point for that one retarded "elitist prick" screwing ). Its just the mind set of the people, like tiamat said in the earlier post, Its the people's mind set, paladins before = good for nothing class bar judgements n blessings. I really hope in time people will realise that paladin can tank, when they have actually tried it. SO stop spouting some stupid crap just because they think they r the elites ( come on! ) and knows everything, try a paladin tank first and then talk by ur experience.
case closed, PALADINS actually can tank, coz thats what their class was designed for, hybrid tank/healer.

Arjen
21-07-2007, 07:57 PM
SO stop spouting some stupid crap just because they think they r the elites ( come on! ) and knows everything, try a paladin tank first and then talk by ur experience.
case closed, PALADINS actually can tank, coz thats what their class was designed for, hybrid tank/healer.

I haven't really seen anyone say Pallies can't tank.

sageclaire
21-07-2007, 07:58 PM
I haven't really seen anyone say Pallies can't tank.

wasnt aimed at u honey :)

Arjen
21-07-2007, 08:09 PM
wasnt aimed at u honey :)

I know. :P I was just saying tho, that no one's really denied Pallies can tank.

It just seems to stem over which is a "better" tank, when both to me have their merits. Warriors have higher hp and slightly better mitigation and benefit better from gear that doesn't have spell damage, basically. Pallies have good aggro (AoE too) control, buffs and auras (I've probably missed a few things, but that's just me).

Like I said in this thread's infancy tho, imo whatever works, works. Since TBC it seems this game is a lot more about skill than it is about gear. I'd rather have an average geared prot pally that knows what he's doing, than a full prot warrior that's a total idiot.

Both deserve a chance as they both bring viable raid-wide progression benefits.

thurlog
22-07-2007, 08:13 AM
is
is not
is
is not
is
is not
is
isn't
is
isn't
etc
etc

Palados
23-07-2007, 01:07 PM
Well, I am happy with our raid setup. Yesterday we did our first Hydross kill with 4 tanks in a raid (that means more DPS) - two prot warriors for boss tanking and two tankadins for add tanking. If we would replace tankadins by two other warriors we would loose two extra blessings for the raid. And I don't see any reason why on adds warriors would be better. Add tank dying was the least important of our wipe reasons on Hydross, usually they leave longer than MTs. Also if one warrior add tank would die his two adds will be simply loosed and gank the raid. While in tankadin case both build aggro on all 4 adds and adds simply switch to another tankadin, that was the case in two tries at least.

Valoran
23-07-2007, 03:19 PM
Well, I am happy with our raid setup. Yesterday we did our first Hydross kill with 4 tanks in a raid (that means more DPS) - two prot warriors for boss tanking and two tankadins for add tanking. If we would replace tankadins by two other warriors we would loose two extra blessings for the raid. And I don't see any reason why on adds warriors would be better. Add tank dying was the least important of our wipe reasons on Hydross, usually they leave longer than MTs. Also if one warrior add tank would die his two adds will be simply loosed and gank the raid. While in tankadin case both build aggro on all 4 adds and adds simply switch to another tankadin, that was the case in two tries at least.
What?

Use them to main tank hydross, then we'll talk. Using paladins as offtanks and then coming into this topic with "hey, they make decent offtanks!" is just stupid, if you've read any of this topic at all.

miganto
23-07-2007, 03:24 PM
Actually supports the original topic.

Palados
23-07-2007, 03:25 PM
I have read all of it. My statement is not that they are decent OT, but that in most cases they are better choise for off-tanking than prot warriors. you know, all the flaming here started from your phrase:

"There's no specific reason to use a prot pally for anything other than murlocs on morogrim."

I showed you specific reason for Hydross OT - extra blessing for raid plus tank who build aggro on all four adds instead of two if you use bears/warriors.

Palados
23-07-2007, 03:32 PM
Val, it seems that due to my bad English or some other reason you can't understand, that I oppose you not in the idea of using tankadins as MT (I know that in 99% encounters wars are better MT). But rather in the idea that USING tankadins in PvE is profitable for the raid needs (unless you, like Uber, rotate people for each and every boss to make the best possible setup and even then tankadins may be usefull) and that in many cases tankadin OT is better than warrior OT for different reasons (and extra blessing is one of them).

Valoran
23-07-2007, 03:33 PM
I have read all of it. My statement is not that they are decent OT, but that in most cases they are better choise for off-tanking than prot warriors. you know, all the flaming here started from your phrase:

"There's no specific reason to use a prot pally for anything other than murlocs on morogrim."

I showed you specific reason for Hydross OT - extra blessing for raid plus tank who build aggro on all four adds instead of two if you use bears/warriors.
Even given that they were the best possible tank for that situation (which is not something I'm going to agree with) they fall into a very specific niche, which isn't required for the entirity of the raid. I would be much happier taking 4/5 warriors/ferals along to a raid and being able to fill every tanking requirement than bringing a prot paladin along.

infneon
23-07-2007, 03:37 PM
I suppose that witty retort makes up for you not understanding that killing a boss months after everyone else using a sub optimal setup after weeks of trying is not a big deal. Grats for the kill, you obviously worked hard for it - but jumping up and down because of how you killed it is just childish.

If you actually want to discuss the point, take it to the paladin forums. Otherwise just accept your grats.


Can someone point me to the bit of this post that doesn't stink, actually, doesn't reek of elitism?

As far as I can see, the post boils down to "Grats on being behind". It really does make me wonder why I bother reading the shit that is posted on here. If you're not in the Server first Club, your opinion means jack shit.

We use the setup that suited us best, it sure as hell ain't cookie cutter, let's play like robots that is supposidly the only way to do bosses round here.

I wonder what would happen if we mention that rather than using a tank on a Mag Warlock, we use a rogue. Hell, MCO should just die if anything on this place is to go by

Palados
23-07-2007, 03:38 PM
Hehe, why would you prefer extra warrior tank instead of paladin who say brings extra BoW for mages over BoK and BoS? If both war and paladin have about the same survivability on trash (that what I have seen for the last few months and what was proved using lossendril site by analyzing the statistics for tank deaths while being on trash) plus paladin have faster aggro generation, especially in multi-mob tanking.

Point out a trash group in SSC/TK where more than 2 prot tanks are required or will make things much more easier.

Palados
23-07-2007, 03:47 PM
I would be much happier taking 4/5 warriors/ferals...

Weren't it Arjuna and Artia who convinced you pre-TBC that feral druids actually can tank in high-end PvE? Even if it would be splits of Skeram, adds on Sartura or bugs on Fankriss? Now paladins are in the same situation, they have to proof everyone that they can tank. But instead of giving them chanse to show themselves as Artia and Arjuna did in AQ40 you say "I would be much happier taking 4/5 warriors/ferals". I haven't heard you saying "I would be much happier to bring extra tank instead of bear and let them respec resto" just because itemization was bad and because they weren't as good as prot wars. But now you are not giving a chanse for a new tanking class to show it's utility. What changed? Guild? More hardcore playing doesn't allow you to experiment with unusual builds?

Valoran
23-07-2007, 03:50 PM
Inf: The summary of that post could be "grats on the kill, just stop trying to make out it was a big deal". If you think it's something to boast about, please feel free - just add something to the discussion that's more than "we did it". I'm sure you feel hard done to being shot down for achieving a kill - but you're actually not contributing to discussion at all, just trolling.

Palados: Generally our healing setup has more and more frequently had 3 paladins in it, I normally don't feel we're lacking for blessings - infact the only people I hear complaining are the feral druids with BoS/BoW/BoK having to put up with 5 minute versions (eventually ;)). Had we a paladin tank we would possibly do the same thing, but I just see no reason to oust a warrior or feral for a paladin.

Palados
23-07-2007, 03:51 PM
If you have 3 healing paladins than extra BoL from tankadin will benefit your raid healing ;) (about plus 5-10% effective healing for them).

Valoran
23-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Weren't it Arjuna and Artia who convinced you pre-TBC that feral druids actually can tank in high-end PvE? Even if it would be splits of Skeram, adds on Sartura or bugs on Fankriss? Now paladins are in the same situation, they have to proof everyone that they can tank. But instead of giving them chanse to show themselves as Artia and Arjuna did in AQ40 you say "I would be much happier taking 4/5 warriors/ferals". I haven't heard you saying "I would be much happier to bring extra tank instead of bear and let them respec resto" just because itemization was bad and because they weren't as good as prot wars. But now you are not giving a chanse for a new tanking class to show it's utility. What changed? Guild? More hardcore playing doesn't allow you to experiment with unusual builds?
You keep bringing up itemisation and refusing to believe that it makes a big deal. Paladin itemisation is shit, and would need to be improved before I would consider them in any serious tanking role. Paladins are not in the same situation as feral druids were just after the talent changes, they can only outperform warriors or ferals in certain niche situations and don't offer enough outside tanking.

Paladins don't need to be given the chance to tank, they need to be given some decent items.

Palados
23-07-2007, 04:04 PM
Tide-stomper's Greaves
Binds when picked up
Feet Plate
1213 Armor
+56 Stamina
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases defense rating by +19 (8.0)
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 29 (1.5%).
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 30.


Myrmidon's Treads
Binds when picked up
Feet Plate
1213 Armor
+56 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +3 Dodge Rating
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases defense rating by +30 (12.7)
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 26 (1.4%).
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17 (1.1%).


Let's compare same iLvL items for paladin and warrior. Paladins get - 4 more stamina and 27 extra TPS from spell damage. Warriors get - 11 extra defence and 1.1% hit. Now I can't really say how much TPS they would get due to extra hit ( I just don't know what is the hit for pre-BT geared wars). But it seems for me that these two items are more or less equivalent. Warriors get more def to go for uncrushability, while paladins get a tad more sta and some TPS from spell damage.

Palados
23-07-2007, 04:09 PM
now - belts:

Girdle of Mighty Resolve
Binds when picked up
Waist Plate
993 Armor
+56 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +3 Dodge Rating
Durability 55 / 55
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases defense rating by +26 (11.0)
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 25 (3.2%).
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 30.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 38.

Girdle of Stability
Binds when picked up
Waist Plate
993 Armor
+56 Stamina
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Durability 55 / 55
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases defense rating by +19 (8.0)
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 18 (1.0%).
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 56.

Warrios get 4 extra sta, paladins - 27 TPS. Mitigation goes like this (def/dodge/block/block value):

War - 19/18/0/56
Pal - 26/3/25/38

Now paladins get more mitigation (shifted to def/block though) and TPS increase while warriors got more amount blocked and 4 more sta. Plus warriors get NO TPS increase.

Valoran
23-07-2007, 04:16 PM
Block value = tps.

However, itemisation is an overall issue. There are singular pieces of paladin tanking gear that are fantastic, but if you're using a set overall that has zero spell hit and melee hit (for example), then something needs changing. Discussing gear for two slots is ultimately pointless.

Palados
23-07-2007, 04:23 PM
compare T6, war vs pala

Armor 7415 - 7415
Strength 41 vs 189 spell damage (about 170 extra TPS)
Agility 89 vs 132 (!) Intellect
Stamina 298 vs 299
Defense Rating 170 vs 151
Dodge Rating 27 vs 119
Parry Rating 100 vs 30

Block Rating 97 vs 23
+Block Amount 77 vs 47

One BoSanc covers the difference between amount blocked. 41 extra str (82AP) is not even close to TPS increase that 189 extra spell damage give. Probably after very carefull calculations taking into account less effective nature of the block parameter and different blocking talents for pala and war (also for pala extra block is extra TPS) warrior will have like 1-2% better mitigation. But all in all what we see is that paladins have about the same mitigation from set and bigger TPS increase than warriors. Also their 2 set bonus is like extra 10% rage generation for warriors (that they don't have in their 2 piece bonus).

Palados
23-07-2007, 04:34 PM
but if you're using a set overall that has zero spell hit and melee hit (for example)

Well, paladins SoV (let us speak about alliance paladins) is ticking even if you miss a boss and with increasing it's duration by 50% +hit is even less relevant for paladins (it's still important to some extend ofc, but not as much as it was before the change especially for slow weapons). They get 3% to hit from talents so miss rate on bosses is 5.64%. They could also increase the weapon skills by 10. As soon as SoV is not disappearing due to misses, +hit isn't relevant anymore since white damage is a small part of paladin TPS. And the additional spell damage on hit when SoV is up they introduce in the next patch is quite small to make hit really needed. And, tbh, maybe I was not really paying attention, but when I was prot for a short time I never seen concecration or damage from holy shield being resisted (correct me if I am wrong).

kris
24-07-2007, 02:02 PM
Lots of speculations in this thread, lots of numbers pulled out of someone's ass and a few jerks who know little about paladin tanking spamming the thread with their "I was first so I know better" attitude.
A few corrections first:
1. Health difference: a naked prot paladin against a naked prot warrior, both lvl 70: 1100. It's not 2000, 3000, 5000 or whatever number you make up, check this yourself.
2. Mitigation: exactly 4% in warrior's favor. Both classes have matching talents, def stance gives 4% more mitigation than imp. RF.
3. Stat spreading: to maintain aggro warriors need str, +melee hit and block, paladins need spell power and +spell hit. To reduce/avoid damage both classes need the same stats.
4. Itemization: Blizz learned its lesson and is making tanking items for both classes equal in terms of avoidance and sta, only the aggro field is unique for each class

Now I'm gonna make a very bold statement and claim warriors and paladins are equally viable progression main tanks. The thing that makes warriors stand out atm is that they have a 2.5 years lead in terms of tanking. Take a warrior who started tanking back in the MC days and a paladin who started a few months ago in Kara and you have an immense experience gap to fill. And having a skilled and experienced MT is what makes or breaks a raid usually.
So, warriors have +1100 HP, 4% better mitigation and 2 "oh shit" buttons. Paladins have Ardent Defender(passive semi shield wall), uncrushability and 1 "oh shit" button. All speculation aside, the difference is not THAT big to say one is clearly and always better than the other. There are some fights that are easier with a paladin, there are some favoring warriors and there are some where bears excel. That doesn't mean you can not do all fights with any of those 3 classes. The situation when TBC came was that 95%(see? I can pull numbers out of my ass too) of the guilds had lots of protection warriors and those were the first to be put at tanking roles and get their gear upgrades. So I'm sure wherever you look, you'll see protection warriors leading high-end progression charts. But there's always a tiny amount of guilds who for one reason or another lost their old main tanks and were neither afraid, nor too stubborn to try something different and are quite happy with their choice.

An example: Leo human form favors paladins, demon form favors warriors. Hydross is best doable with 2 paladins tanking everything. Warriors show their best on all very slow and hard hitting bosses. Druids excel at fights where bosses have unavoidable attacks.

About me: holy/prot 41/20/0 pally in service of Original. Just for kicks I decided to respec to full prot and in my tanking gear I had 17600 HP fully buffed and avoidance rivalling everything but T5 warriors. That is with 2 T4 pieces, 2 blues, rest is from Kara and heroics.
Since progression was put into the argument, a tank with the same gear would be tanking Maggy and early SSC and TK and I'm sure he'd have the same level of success there as a warrior.

Arjen
24-07-2007, 04:19 PM
... There are some fights that are easier with a paladin, there are some favoring warriors and there are some where bears excel. That doesn't mean you can not do all fights with any of those 3 classes...

An example: Leo human form favors paladins, demon form favors warriors. Hydross is best doable with 2 paladins tanking everything. Warriors show their best on all very slow and hard hitting bosses. Druids excel at fights where bosses have unavoidable attacks.
...

Nice post and well said.

Can you list off more examples of where Paladin tanking is better or just as viable as a warrior's?

Val did say that he can't see Pallies fitting in in more than a couple of niche occurrences. If you really want to prove him wrong, can any prot pally make a list of bosses/raid instances where you feel a Pally would be more preferable, and why?

If you don't want to, fair enough. I admit I can't as I don't know enough to make an informed statement about it.

kris
25-07-2007, 08:35 AM
Attumen the Huntsman - all
Moroes - all
Maiden of Virtue - warrior and druid
Opera - warrior on Julianne, all on rest
The Curator - all
Terestian Illhoof - all
Shade of Aran - not tanked
Netherspite - all
Prince Malchezaar - paladin
Nightbane - warrior

notice - on undead and demon bosses the paladin tank will also do a very respectable damage, so that's a bit like bringing 1 extra dps to the raid.

Maulgar - all
Gruul - warrior and druid
Magtheridon - all
Doomwalker - paladin before enrage, warrior after enrage
Kazzak - all

Hydross the Unstable - 2 paladins
The Lurker Below - all
Fathom-Lord Karathress - all
Morogrim Tidewalker - all (paladin for murlocks)
Leotheras the Blind - paladin and warrior
Lady Vashj - all (paladin on phase 2 nagas)

Void Reaver - paladin and druid
Al'ar - warrior and druid
High Astromancer Solarian - all
Kael'thas Sunstrider - not seen enough of this fight to be able to judge

I have to stress I haven't tanked ANY 25 raid boss so here I give only my personal opinion on the fights based on the strength and weaknesses of each tanking class the way I see them. Feel free to correct me if I have misjudged any. Constructive criticism is more than welcome, flaming isn't.

Valoran
25-07-2007, 08:42 AM
No, paladin tanking prince is a stupid thing to do at lower levels of gear. Welcome to page one of this thread.

No point using a paladin on VR, they're totally fucked for threat gen once they lose aggro. They gain nothing from pounding, warriors and druids do. Damage = rage = threat.

And to all the bits you've said "all" replace that with "warrior till you outgear the place".

Summary: paladins are niche tanks.

Arthran
25-07-2007, 09:32 AM
They gain nothing from pounding, warriors and druids do. Damage = rage = threat.


Damage = Healed = Mana, Mana = more threat generated

And All simply means any of the 3 tanking chars can do it.

As much as i can see your attempting to talk about the subject Valorian, From your posts it seems very much like you've already decided that paladins are niche tanks and you wont accept any comments to the contrary.

With my level of gear for instance i could quite easily tank as well as most warriors on 25man bosses. Regularly Tank at Maulgar, on Al'ar a paladins TPS is extremely usefull for getting hold of the Adds and getting hold of them fast allowing the DPS to start on them asap.

A properly geared and good skilled paladin tank should be given all the respect and opportunities you would afford an equal skilled Bear or Warrior Tank. Were all Roughly Comparable.

There are only 2 things that i see that is holding back paladin tanks at the moment:

1) Public Opinion, Simply put so many people are just so used to warriors being the Main tanks, people are and always have been slow to adapt. It took bears a long time to get recognised as good tanks. Its our turn to be seen as Hybrids.

2) Now nobody take this the wrong way. But there are too many Idiot paladin tanks out there making a bad name for us. Everywhere i look i see paladins in almost full warrior gear, Including a warrior tanking sword like Kings defender. Now sure they have reasonable block, dodge etc etc. But their threat generation is ridiculous. Paladin tanks running around with 35 spell damage are the kind of paladin tanks who are niche tanks who should be ignored. Real Paladin tanks Need to remember, we are HYBRIDS.
Because of the oppinions of alot of guild/raid leaders, we'll never normally get the chance to do more than Offtank, and because of this we need to realise that running in to combat with high mitigation, low threat gear is going to screw us, we'll be tanking the first add to die normally, so it our TPS is low then were going to lose agro and wipe the raid. We need to be able at all times to Chuck heals arround, to assist other tanks and be the full hybrid class we were designed to be.

If i see one more pala tank who thinks he's a warrior. I will scream! we have to be flexible in our tanking abilities. High spell damage is essential, as is a largish mana pool. Raid buffed i normally have 501 defence, as much mitigation as most of our warrior tanks, but yet i still have just under 400 spell damage (and i can ofc mid combat swap weapon and sheild for healing) and just over 7k Mana. Flexebility is the key with Pala tanks.

To raid leaders:
Why take a Prot warrior OT who's going to be doing mediocre dps when not tanking, when you could take a Paladin tank who can tank their mobs, then chuck heals arround without changing gear(apart from wep ofc). That allows you to take 1 less healer and therefor 1 more DPS, making progress easier. (Why do you think IoF has got 3 new Bosses down in 3 days! ;-) )

kris
25-07-2007, 09:46 AM
No, paladin tanking prince is a stupid thing to do at lower levels of gear. Welcome to page one of this thread.

And to all the bits you've said "all" replace that with "warrior till you outgear the place".

Summary: paladins are niche tanks.
All I can see from your posts is that you know little to nothing about tanking mechanisms. Unless you bring some theory or hard numbers to your claims I'll just assume you're just trolling this thread. Go ruin another thread please.

Palados
25-07-2007, 09:48 AM
We did 2 new bosses in two days /grin. And tankadins did help us imho. Two extra blessings in raid compared to the case if we would use two wars on hydross adds or for OTing trash. Also with wars DPS would have more chanses to get aggro while aoeing adds. Our usual setup for 5 tanks - 2 wars, 2 palas and bear, for 4 - 2/1/1 or 1/2/1. And it works nicely (and Val, Hydross died on 4th day and it was the first day when our tankadins got epic crafted res gear, it took weeks because we raid only few times a week and usually have one or two days for progression bosses. You should know it tbh).

Arthran
25-07-2007, 09:48 AM
i take it you agree with me Kris

Arthran
25-07-2007, 09:50 AM
Pala tanks are the future! Hybrids allow better raid composition

sageclaire
25-07-2007, 09:59 AM
let is all remember our 1st prince kill, it was hard right ? and thats with our most trusted prot tank using bracer's of green fortress, helm of stalwart defender ( no T4 helm yet ! ), if lucky, have the t4 glove, if not, tanking with the gloves from maiden and using honor call or KD. And lets remember that time when our dps were sucky. Prince was real hard right? i remember the "last stand running", "shield's wall running" from TS. SO, its clear that prince with warrior tank is also hard. Kris was only showing that tanking prince as a paladin is viable, with the 8 charges of holy shield ( i think? ) compared to the 4 shield blocks on phase 2. We all know P1 n P3 r retardedly easy. And with 17K hp like kris have on his prot spec, with NO SSC tanking gear, just KZ items, some blues ( ZOMG BLUES!!! ) and 2 teir 4, that should be ok to tank prince P2. He is hardly overgearing KZ. ( well his healing gear ofc outgears kz by a large margin, but thats another story :D ) Almost dying near end of P2 ? LoH is ur friend :) I strongly disagree with most of vals post that paladin can only tank SSC/TK/KZ when they vastly overgeared the place. To be honest, thats a mockery (!!) towards the paladin tanks.

And yea, from all val's post, i have a feeling that he already has a set piece of mind stating " paladins r niche tanks ". All i wanted to say when i started the thread 3 weeks ago was : " paladin can tank " and " try to give them chances to show their worths, as feral druids have been given their chance".

Valoran
25-07-2007, 10:05 AM
As much as i can see your attempting to talk about the subject Valorian, From your posts it seems very much like you've already decided that paladins are niche tanks and you wont accept any comments to the contrary.
Attempting? I've done a lot more research and put a lot more thought into this than what would appear to be the majority of the people in this thread.

Paladins tank fine. You're a retard if you pick them over a warrior to tank something where migitation is an issue. This has been the statement I've kept to from the start, nobody has contradicted me. They are niche tanks from this point of view, as you don't want to gimp yourself by bringing a sub par migitation tank. Nobody has denied that migitation is worse from a paladin point of view, that seems to be the one thing everyone can agree on. So stop being retarded and accept that this makes paladins worse tanks than warriors for 99% of content out there.
All I can see from your posts is that you know little to nothing about tanking mechanisms. Unless you bring some theory or hard numbers to your claims I'll just assume you're just trolling this thread. Go ruin another thread please.
It's not my job to educate you. If you don't want to take my words at face value, then fine - more the fool to you. You yourself have not provided any hard facts or figures, only proclaiming your own lack of knowledge on the situation. If you really want to be picky and bring up tanking credentials, I have tanked in tempest keep - something you admit to having no experience with.

If you really want to have a serious discussion on the subject - take it to the EJ thread I linked earlier. Or read and refer to it. Atleast that forum is moderated in such a way that a thread wouldn't be entirely based on straw mans as the majority of this thread has been.

And eclairs, I've no problem with paladins tanking in content they outgear. Some of the magic doodads they bring in terms of threat are indeed quite nice for farm content. It's simple numbers, they take more damage ergo, they are worse tanks.

sageclaire
25-07-2007, 10:07 AM
No, paladin tanking prince is a stupid thing to do at lower levels of gear. Welcome to page one of this thread.

No point using a paladin on VR, they're totally fucked for threat gen once they lose aggro. They gain nothing from pounding, warriors and druids do. Damage = rage = threat.

And to all the bits you've said "all" replace that with "warrior till you outgear the place".

Summary: paladins are niche tanks.

Just sums up ur ability to give *cough* constructive comments *cough* . Especially the VR part ( pounding thingy ! ). GJ valoran ;) no wonder some1 calls u FAILORAN instead.

Valoran
25-07-2007, 10:14 AM
Eclairs, you do realise that paladins generate a lot of their threat from blocking, right? Thus, when they don't have aggro, their threat generation is sub par - making them poor choices for VR offtanks.

Just checking.

Not that I'm pointing out the total lack of constructive comments in your own posts. Nevermind the poor grammar/random capitalisation.

Arthran
25-07-2007, 10:16 AM
Paladins tank fine. You're a retard if you pick them over a warrior to tank something where migitation is an issue. This has been the statement I've kept to from the start, nobody has contradicted me. They are niche tanks from this point of view, as you don't want to gimp yourself by bringing a sub par migitation tank. Nobody has denied that migitation is worse from a paladin point of view, that seems to be the one thing everyone can agree on. So stop being retarded and accept that this makes paladins worse tanks than warriors for 99% of content out there.

Actually as Kris pointed out earlier the only way a paladin is worse for mitigation is 4%, a measly 4% extra warriors get from defensive stance.

So you need to heal an extra 4% on a paladin tank? if your getting hit for 10k (before mitigation) thats an extra 400hp that needs to be healed up, thats very very little and tbh that 400 health will be 40mana to the pala tank, PLUS is you have a pala tanking, you'd assume he has JoL running, so he's more than likely heal himself that 400 from whacking away anyway.

It seems very much like your arguement that paladins are niche tanks is based arround that 4% extra mitigation that warriors have. and tbh for the extra bonus's that a paladin tank brings, its a very weak arguement

Valoran
25-07-2007, 10:17 AM
You're also ignoring the extra health warriors have, both innate, from talents and from the fact they don't have to spend itemisation budgets or socketing on anything other than stamina. 4% is huge, as mentioned earlier in this thread, that increases damage taken multiplicatively.

Arthran
25-07-2007, 10:17 AM
Eclairs, you do realise that paladins generate a lot of their threat from blocking, right? Thus, when they don't have aggro, their threat generation is sub par - making them poor choices for VR offtanks.

Just checking.

Not that I'm pointing out the total lack of constructive comments in your own posts. Nevermind the poor grammar/random capitalisation.

Have you ever tried tanking as a paladin? i'd say no more than a 3rd of my threat comes from blocking. Why? Because im not one of these idiot paladins who thinks stacking nothing but warrior gear is great. With the spell damage i have i generate an insane amount of TPS from Avengers sheild, Consecration and SoR/SoV. Which is funny really, as thats what they are there for

sageclaire
25-07-2007, 10:18 AM
Eclairs, you do realise that paladins generate a lot of their threat from blocking, right? Thus, when they don't have aggro, their threat generation is sub par - making them poor choices for VR offtanks.

Just checking.

Not that I'm pointing out the total lack of constructive comments in your own posts. Nevermind the poor grammar/random capitalisation.

yes i do. but ur statement was stupendous bout pounding does fuck paladins up.

Arthran
25-07-2007, 10:19 AM
Funny really, when Kris has already detailed how in mediocre gear he can hit 17k, most of our tanks in IoF (warriors i mean) Sit arround 19k, now if i had comparable gear to them (being a Paladin i get last dibs) I would easily be at their mark, how? because i know how to work paladin itemisation

spikeyy
25-07-2007, 10:20 AM
Meh, this thread is just pointless now. The paladins tanks desperately defending themselves and trying to claim they are the worlds greatest tanks who can tank anything. I especially like the we have less mitigation...but not much less so it is fine! comments. And stupid comments like "only a third"....jeez get a grip.

And then Valoran making the same sensible comments over and over, but the paladins so blinded by wanting to MT they just dont listen.

Valoran
25-07-2007, 10:20 AM
yes i do. but ur statement was stupendous bout pounding does fuck paladins up.
What do paladins gain from pounding? The only thing mentioned was mana from being healed. Considering they should be taking around 9k damage from pounding, ~900 mana is nothing to get excited over. Paladin threat generation on VR is gimped, it's that simple.

sageclaire
25-07-2007, 10:21 AM
also kris pointed out that the base difference in HP between a naked prot-warr and a naked protadin was indeed 1100, not 2K not 3K.

sageclaire
25-07-2007, 10:22 AM
What do paladins gain from pounding? The only thing mentioned was mana from being healed. Considering they should be taking around 9k damage from pounding, ~900 mana is nothing to get excited over. Paladin threat generation on VR is gimped, it's that simple.

Then how the hell did lina tanked on VR ? really, ur stupidity really irks me now. 900 mana = refreshes seals = aggro ? 900 mana = carpet = aggro ? urm .. hello .

Arthran
25-07-2007, 10:23 AM
Meh, this thread is just pointless now. The paladins tanks desperately defending themselves and trying to claim they are the worlds greatest tanks who can tank anything. I especially like the we have less mitigation...but not much less so it is fine! comments. And stupid comments like "only a third"....jeez get a grip.

And then Valoran making the same sensible comments over and over, but the paladins so blinded by wanting to MT they just dont listen.

Did you actually read my long post detailing how paladins make great OT's because of the fact we are hybrids. Personally im just supporting the cause. I dont want MT status, as Kris said most warrior tanks have nearly 2 years more experience than me, alone that makes them more qualified to MT.

Im merely campaigning for the Paladin tanks to be taken s seriously as Bares!

Valoran
25-07-2007, 10:23 AM
Then how the hell did lina tanked on VR ? really, ur stupidity really irks me now.
Lol.