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View Full Version : Role of shamans in raids


Carc
07-06-2007, 11:16 AM
A simple question, but one that will probably open up a can of worms:

Is there a place in 10 man or 25 man raids for Enhanced or Elemental shamans? Are you not better taking another DPS specific class instead?

In my opinion if you're going to take a shaman into a raid for buffs, you may aswell take a resto for mana tide, decent chain heal and Earth shield aswell.
I'm saying this as an Elemental shaman too, so I'm not biased.

Faylin
07-06-2007, 11:18 AM
Enhancement Shamans kick fucking ass. Very respectable damage, and great asset to a melee group due to proc buffs and totems.

Haven't raided much with Elemental Shamans.

Kinshara
07-06-2007, 11:27 AM
Is there a place in 10 man or 25 man raids for Enhanced or Elemental shamans? Are you not better taking another DPS specific class instead?

There's definitely a place for an enhancement shaman; the combination of your own dps and the increase in that of your party members (at least in a melee group, 25 mans) is greater than that of another "pure" dpser. And you're just fine in a 10 man raid.

Elemental less so due to the recent efficiency nerf.

Ogrosh
07-06-2007, 11:45 AM
There is very much room for Enhancement and Resto Shaman, not so much elemental anymore, the nerf was very harsh and any fight lasting a significant amount of time is gonna leave you OOM a fair way before the end unless you can guarentee being with a shadow priest.

Enhancement shaman played to their fullest will push a melee DPS group much further damage wise as a group than having a rogue or dps warrior in their place.

Resto shaman are very good for healing an MT due to earth shield, healing way and ancestral healing, what tank wouldn't want 25% more armour?

Chain heal is extremely efficient heal per mana whenever it bounces and great for keeping tightly packed melee dps groups topped up.

Then there is mana tide totem, very nice amount of mana back for the healers/casters you are with.

So yeah, definitetly room for enhance and resto, ele needs the right support eg with a shadow priest, they can push out some very good dps numbers and buff a caster group very nicely with Totem of Wrath.

Valoran
07-06-2007, 01:19 PM
If used well (by sticking them with the right classes), enhancement/elemental shamans add enough to their groups to justify their slightly lower DPS. They won't be topping meters often, but they will increase the raids overall dps considerably.

Gyundor
07-06-2007, 07:39 PM
Plus any enhancement shaman with a brain will still be doing higher then decent damage on his own count the buff they give to their party to it and theyre a great thing to have in any raid

Kabhanda
07-06-2007, 08:06 PM
I can top 5 any melee friendly fight (with the 4 above me being the other guys in my group), I would call that worthwhile.

Rey
08-06-2007, 10:51 AM
Sham0ns are for wf totem kk

Legendfierce
08-06-2007, 11:30 AM
I can top 5 any melee friendly fight (with the 4 above me being the other guys in my group), I would call that worthwhile.

So you should if not then Resto eet kk.

Mooze
11-06-2007, 01:34 AM
According to those I raid with, elemental shaman isn't really all that bad. If I don't assist heals , I will usually end up top 4 on damage done. The mana inefficiency is a valid point, but I've got 32% crit with totems, ~900 spell dmg with the usual buffs. As long as I bring some mana pots, there are few fights (so far) that I've been oom in. Clearcasting ftw.

Hammett
12-06-2007, 04:59 PM
just spam rank 1 LB until you get a clearcast ;P It's win.

Carc
13-06-2007, 10:28 AM
just spam rank 1 LB until you get a clearcast ;P It's win.

Actually, if you're OOM in a boss fight and your pot is still on CD - that's not a bad idea. I'd never thought about that before :S

Hammett
15-06-2007, 08:55 AM
Well, it's a pretty good idea. I saw it in some movie and went with it on my shaman when he was elemental, only thing you need to watch out is that you don't miss out on the clearcast by shooting another LB, since it's a pretty fast cast. Anyway, try it out, it's nice. :)

Backupo
18-06-2007, 09:28 PM
Hardly since the CC nerf, though it was decent before so.

Hammett
19-06-2007, 09:50 AM
...

It was more than decent.

Nuff said.

Backupo
20-06-2007, 10:36 AM
If you're oom, then you're not doing DPS, especially with a rank 1 LB, it was a neat trick for perhaps a 5-man, but i don't see any reason for a raid guild taking a Mage with less DPS that goes oom on any boss fight worth it's weight in gold.

Kabhanda
20-06-2007, 04:57 PM
Except an elem shammy in decent gear contributes more dps than a mage (own dps + buffs) and assuming it has a shadow priest and chain pots will last as long as it needs to.

Backupo
21-06-2007, 12:45 AM
Mhmm, ok, besides the points Kabhanda's mentioned, i stand by the fact that rank 1 LB is nothing more than a gimmick.

You're not meant to go oom, spamming rank 1 LB when you are oom isn't a solution to keep dpsing, you're stopping your ooc mana regen for a few free LB's, your DPS is gonna be terrible, could be useful in a 5-man or heroic where you don't want to spam Super Mana Potions, but otherwise it's terrible.

Elexin
21-06-2007, 11:45 AM
ooc mana regen? You're not doing any dps while doing nothing either, unsurprisingly. Not going to get much from ooc mana regen either, spirit isn't exactly a stat you find on most shaman gear.
If you're out of mana, you pot. If you're stuck between pot timers, r1 or so is better than nothing and the clearcast proc (even if its only 60% now) should mean you're able to cast something 'real'.
Hey, some people might even get strings of luck... you could crit your clearcasted procs too, or LO on those same crits. Far more dps than doing nothing for regen. ;)

Backupo
21-06-2007, 12:26 PM
Paladins have next to no spirit on gear or naturally, yet when i look at my tab my ooc mana regen is 170 or so, when my normal regen is around the 100 mark, depending on gear, i know i'd prefer that regen than keeping my mana pool low by spamming rank 1 LB/using clearcasting procs.

Ajial
21-06-2007, 12:37 PM
I agree with elexin, doing anything is better then nothing.. Im a shadowpriest so mana isnt *usually* a problem (meaning with a combination of pots, SoH and fiend i can keep some mana :P) However if it is I wand.. Sounds stupid but its better then standing around looking pretty. (Ofc i realise that wanding doesnt stop regen) Luckily most fights have adds of some kind off adds and im getting quite good at stealing spirit taps :P

Valoran
21-06-2007, 01:53 PM
I agree with elexin, doing anything is better then nothing.. Im a shadowpriest so mana isnt *usually* a problem (meaning with a combination of pots, SoH and fiend i can keep some mana :P) However if it is I wand.. Sounds stupid but its better then standing around looking pretty. (Ofc i realise that wanding doesnt stop regen) Luckily most fights have adds of some kind off adds and im getting quite good at stealing spirit taps :P
Key point you're missing is that by doing nothing you're regenerating mana. Which is something.

Generally though, if you're running out of mana, you either have poor group synergy, haven't used comsumables to their full effect, or need to alter your dps cycle, the mistake has already been made.

Logar
21-06-2007, 08:36 PM
Okay, so I'm not testing this now, but I think totem relic is changeable in combat, right? You got your nuke relic and you got...

I'm not bothering to look the item out, but there's actually 2 relics that lower the cost of LB. Now, the poor one (reward from some HFP quest), reduces the cost by 15 (yes, the exact cost of rank one LB). Epic one is 24 I believe, bought with badges.

If you don't use mana, you won't go in 5 sec rule and thus you can keep doing whatever you do and still regen full mana.

Now someone prove me wrong please ;)

Backupo
21-06-2007, 11:44 PM
It's bugged, you still are in the 5 second rule, there was a complaint thread on the Shaman forum awhile back.

Epic one is 25 iirc.

Ajial
22-06-2007, 11:59 AM
Key point you're missing is that by doing nothing you're regenerating mana. Which is something.

Generally though, if you're running out of mana, you either have poor group synergy, haven't used comsumables to their full effect, or need to alter your dps cycle, the mistake has already been made.

As i said its very rare for me to totally go oom, very fight dependant. Shadow priests work most effectivly when they have all their dots and debuffs up, on a fight with adds (ala Lurker) this simply isnt possible since it would cost far too much mana to cast all dots and debuffs on each add. As for dps cycle, shadow priest you cant go wrong.. just keep dotsup and spam mind flay with *maybe* the occasional mind blast but thats not in my regular dps cycle on bosses. Trash ofc is a completely different story since the fights are shorter.

Maesto
22-06-2007, 12:26 PM
As for dps cycle, shadow priest you cant go wrong.. just keep dotsup and spam mind flay with *maybe* the occasional mind blast but thats not in my regular dps cycle on bosses.

Lol

Alverion
22-06-2007, 08:21 PM
Try harder.

Back to topic, we try to keep an enhancement shammy in most raids, we typically have 1 dps warrior with us at all times and thus the shaman as the synergy there is great.

Lately we've had an elemental in and not been noticing that mana is an issue for her, keeps up a fair amount of dps with similar longevity to our mages atm.

All in all, Resto provides the biggest raid boost still, bringing totems, earth shield, mana tide, enhancement and elemental are tied just behind but their roles are much more specialised. If you don't run with a decent melee group, your enhancement can be a pretty wasted spot (personal dps depending of course), since most raids favour casters these days an elemental does fair better but they don't bring as large a dps boost to their group as an enhance (anecdotal evidence, not done as much raiding with/without an elemental to actually notice the difference yet)

Ajial
22-06-2007, 08:52 PM
Lol

Pfft, you try dpsing in my gear :P Mind blast just ninjas my mana atm :<

If you have any tips or advice id love to know, im still learning :P

Maesto
23-06-2007, 10:22 AM
Chain chug mana pots ;D