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Hearst
24-05-2007, 12:56 AM
Took me a while to type but here goes.

So I logged in today, in disbelief that the trinket change went live... seriously. Had a couple of duels and it wasn't too bad until I had to use the trinket. Breaking the Frost nova but still remaining Chilled is simply terrible, I could not even get in range in time to Pummel any cast or reapply Hamstring before the kiting began. Dispelling the Kidney Shot and Crippling Poison with the trinket and Intercepting is also gone now and to add to that warlocks can actually use Curse of Exhaustion to kite us now. Oh the joy.

Point is most classes like rogues and warlocks are happy with their trinket changes. Warlocks being able to remove stun and slows finally gives them a chance over rogues (and warriors) and the rogue change with stun has also been welcomed by many. While the warrior community have made their complaints in the PTR Concerns thread they appear to have been in vain as no action or response to them has been given. It's been said many times but us removing Polymorph *at the cost* of the removing snares is not worth it.

While I'm at it I'll comment on the other 'changes.' The Deathwish/Enrage nerf hit me the most. When someone posted these leaked changes I was certain they were fake as I could NEVER expect the developers to go this far. Nerfing DW/Enrage by not stacking is removing our strongest potential burst damage ... every 3 minutes and after receiving a crit while taking 5% more damage, being in melee rage, having the rage and being immune to fear (yeah like that's the problem.) What people need to understand is that burst damage is the main way for a warrior to win in Pvp. We do not have the wide selection of abilities to avoid damage like mages, rogues, no healing, vulnerable to kiting and our rage can be a large problem in Pvp. Our plate does nothing to magical damage and our supposedly high health is a factor of gear, equally geared opponents can have just as much or more. Further more DW and Enrage have been stacking forever and it was never a problem but all of a sudden it is and it is worthy, I believe, to mention that *they are in the same talent tree*. At least for the sake of *consistency* change the other high(er) burst damage specs of other classes as well. That didn't work for mages and counterspell last time now did it? (I meant consistency incase you didn't get it.)

The Flurry nerf at start doesn't seem as drastic but 5% out of 30% is taking away 16% of the talent's efficiency if I'm correct. The worst part is that it was done because Fury warriors were outdamaging rogues... God Forbid that warriors top the damage! Many said that the change wouldn't even be noticed with the glancing blows change but it is still unfair and inconsistent that rogues' Slice and Dice and the Flurry of shamans remain unchanged. The arguement many have been saying is that warriors are also able to tank whereas rogues cannot. I truely cannot understand how that can be said when rogues have a lot more abilities at their arsenal (Stealth, Sap, Stuns, Blind, Poisons and CLOAK OF SHADOWNS:>) and are more common and accepted into groups.

I'm pretty sure Mortal Strike is next and it worries me very much because I can almost feel it coming. Thing is all these new nerfs keep coming because warriors are able to hold their ground now with the expansion. Our increased damage, which did not come from class buffs but from the new itemization, allows us to kill our enemies before they kill us. Isn't it strange that at level 60 that warriors with even Ashkandi level weapons and gear (myself included) were still Pvp fodder compared to the rest and DW/Enrage, Flurry and Mortal Strike were no problem at all...? Guess why, because we sucked so it was fine.

What I find even more strange is how when most warriors were actually feeling legitimately weak and underpowered even with good gear and some people on the forums actually agreed to that they told us to get a group or a healer so we can perform to our best. But wait a minute.. I can't walk around Azeroth with a pocket paladin and BGs didn't even matter much on this issue. Then the arena was introduced and the obvious warrior + healer combo came to play. All of a sudden warriors are overpowered in group Pvp, their healing debuff is too much and their damage is too much while Holy paladins don't die or go 'oom.'

All these posts about the imbalance of a paladin + warrior team in 2v2 make me wonder if I'm doing something wrong.. Because being part of one myself I can't stop getting insta-gimped by 2 AP-PoM mages and leaving my paladin friend alone. Or a paladin + shadowpriest combo where 'Not enough rage' would be an understatement. Generally I find that mages especially frost are very dominant in high 2v2 bracket with high survivability, high sustained damage and great burst damage while being mana efficient and with the potential to completely lock down my healer for 8 seconds every 24 seconds. And if you do the maths 24-8=16 which means if I'm not dead and they are not dead it can be done again in 16 seconds meaning a 30% uptime. Sure you can say lrn2play and use LoS but believe me you cannot kite a mage and if the healer is not in LoS it means I'm not either and that's a gg situation.

Before the patch I felt that I was doing all right. Duels were fun, the arena ratings were going up and the few times I got to DPS in instances was a blast (<3 WF Totem) but after this patch we've reached a barrier for us in the 2v2 team and reason no. 1 Frost mages and their lovely elementals. The fact is that warriors have no different ways or skills to fight. Everything is involved around hitting stuff. While rogues, the other melee class have so many ways to fight and defend theirselves it's unfair to us. Rogues even got an instant ranged snare that damages as well as interrupt casts when geared for it. They can take someone out of action for a very long time when it comes to Pvp and their burst damage is comparable to the warrior's when geared. Don't come in saying numbers when hitting plate while us hitting cloth. Something else about rogues.. From what I believe Crippling Poison's effect is so powerful (70% which I consider it a semi-immobilize) because it had a 30% of application on hit although that's doubled when on both weapons but still fair enough. With the introduction of Shiv I don't understand why this isn't addressed.

On our talents.. there have been sayings that Blizzard wants and tries to make us spec deeper into the trees and move away from the hybrid specs. They certainly tried very hard with the latest nerfs as well as with the Tactical Mastery nerf (forgot about that eh?) but still the 41 points talents are useless as ever. 25% more rage on white attacks does not even by *far* conpensate for the loss of Improved Intercept and previously Deathwish (still a fear breaker in Pvp I guess.) All of our 41 Pointers are passive except for Devastate that is just another instant melee attack, with very weak damage to add. As it is right now I would expect something that helps more in Pvp for our Arms talent as well as improving Rampage. Rampage is a fucking joke, giving 250 AP at the cost of rage and global cooldown when Black Temple and Hyjal items and before that (not even weapons) are giving over 100 AP each.

This topic was made to express my concerns on the Pvp side of the warrior as I think we're doing all right on the Pve part (holding up with the nerfs) even though still a bit weak on the solo area. I was really *satisfied* again with my class until this patch came and ruined it. Why am I posting all these? Maybe I'm expecting it will be viewed by someone and forwarded or at least some of those points heard to the developers, of course I'm sure my hopes are too high. This is as constructive and honest as I can be. Summary is what has been happening over the last 2 years is nerfing our damage on both the burst and consistent areas, giving us the most useless talents a class can get and reducing our other abilities efficiency (Tact Mastery, Trinket, Fear, Berserker Stance.) I truely hope some things change in this place before maybe another expansion...

- You can see my name on my avatar

Stim
24-05-2007, 06:36 AM
Well, sucking as intended, I guess...

Iyachtu
24-05-2007, 06:53 AM
Whoa.. that's alot of text ^^
Well written post, pretty much sums up what's 'wrong' with the warrior class as it stands today.
The sad part of it all is that we can 'QQ' all we want, it aint going to change nothing.
The concerns about the trinket change was never adressed they went ahead and did their thing anyway.

Gwynin
24-05-2007, 09:31 AM
Very well written Hearst, alltho I dont have the pvp experience in arena nor regular pvp. I certainly can agree with you on most if not all accounts, warriors keep getting nerfed due to the QQ of the masses who have been pwned by 0.5% of the warrior population.

And as Stim said, we're sucking as intended.

Kinshara
24-05-2007, 10:45 AM
I agree with you on the trinket change, I think it should have stayed as it was.

Flurry nerf... annoying perhaps, but rogues should be top dps. Their other abilities that you've listed aren't used in raiding, it's purely about how much dps they bring. Shamans didn't get a nerf to their flurry, but they did get an effective nerf to their dps with the dual-ranking windfury fix. 5 mans are a little different, and dps warriors aren't represented too well there... tis unfortunate, but given the ability to tank you'll usually be asked to perform that role.

Deathwish+enrage... +45% damage is a bit nuts at times with the highend 2handers. Unfortunately, they didn't give the warriors any new tricks to compensate for the burst damage :(

I'm hoping for warrior buffs, though with the pvp balance point being 5v5 arena and warriors being the dominant class there... not so sure it'll happen.

Marcuk
24-05-2007, 05:44 PM
I must admit its a well written post but to be honest warriors were far to over powered before the patch... I mean having that much hp and that much armor and still being able to hit for the supreme damage you could was a tad silly. You couldn't be stopped, Immune to fear etc <--- My biggest whine i am a lock :P

But yeah the trinket change imo is a great move, You trying fearing or seducing an undead warrior....

First: Beserking or what ever its called "Not to clued up on warriors" = Immune to fear
Second: Will Of Forsaken/Trinket = Thats got you out of that seduce
Third: Which ever from the second is not on CD = Oooops and your out again

Kapow in that time i am pretty much smushed unless i have some sexy nelf priest behind me healing :)

At least now we can seduce and try to nuke a little before getting eaten :)

Đightrain
24-05-2007, 05:47 PM
Rogues prefer the new trinket? o.O Are those rogues crazy?

Hammett
24-05-2007, 06:16 PM
Nope. Being able to dispell stun pwns.

Đightrain
24-05-2007, 07:02 PM
If you're a rogue you should be doing the one doing the stunning :P I'd much rather dispel charm

Utena
24-05-2007, 09:27 PM
I must admit its a well written post but to be honest warriors were far to over powered before the patch... I mean having that much hp and that much armor and still being able to hit for the supreme damage you could was a tad silly. You couldn't be stopped, Immune to fear etc <--- My biggest whine i am a lock :P

But yeah the trinket change imo is a great move, You trying fearing or seducing an undead warrior....

First: Beserking or what ever its called "Not to clued up on warriors" = Immune to fear
Second: Will Of Forsaken/Trinket = Thats got you out of that seduce
Third: Which ever from the second is not on CD = Oooops and your out again

Kapow in that time i am pretty much smushed unless i have some sexy nelf priest behind me healing :)

At least now we can seduce and try to nuke a little before getting eaten :)

Dots, run, laugh...?

Đightrain
24-05-2007, 11:28 PM
I must admit its a well written post but to be honest warriors were far to over powered before the patch... I mean having that much hp and that much armor and still being able to hit for the supreme damage you could was a tad silly. You couldn't be stopped, Immune to fear etc <--- My biggest whine i am a lock :P

But yeah the trinket change imo is a great move, You trying fearing or seducing an undead warrior....

First: Beserking or what ever its called "Not to clued up on warriors" = Immune to fear
Second: Will Of Forsaken/Trinket = Thats got you out of that seduce
Third: Which ever from the second is not on CD = Oooops and your out again

Kapow in that time i am pretty much smushed unless i have some sexy nelf priest behind me healing :)

At least now we can seduce and try to nuke a little before getting eaten :)


Ok I'm guessing from your post you've either not played your warlock much, bought it off ebay or you haven't a clue about pvp :P

If you're gonna use a succubus then why would you open with fear rather than seduce? If you can see they've gone zerker stance then they're more than likely gonna use zerker rage to get out of fear. Also the fact that seducing means you have the ability to keep at a distance then surely seduce is the smart move?

If they wotf you still have happycoil which you failed to mention... that should keep them busy long enough for you to be able to seduce again.

Finally, the main reason which would probably just suggest lack of pvp experience... If they're using the trinket to remove seduce... you're clearly fighting a rogue and not a warrior. :P

Hearst
24-05-2007, 11:52 PM
Saved me the time typing that myself. ^^

Valoran
25-05-2007, 01:17 AM
The thing with warlocks is that they just have so many options, which, when used by an experienced player - can force a warrior to use their rather limited (both in number and cooldown) abilities.

Manidim
25-05-2007, 04:58 AM
If you're a rogue you should be doing the one doing the stunning :P I'd much rather dispel charm


Getting charmed in the first place are we?

Chopper
25-05-2007, 07:43 AM
I must admit its a well written post, in fact I'm bound to say this - it's designed to pacify you before I start whining. I was killed by a warrior before the ptach LOL TEHY ARE OVERPOWERED LOL. I mean having similar hp to other classes geared and specced for pvp and armor that doesn't protect you at all from magic damage and being able to output increased damage when you're being crit for thousands was a tad silly. I can't stop you , Immune to fear for 10s/30s and 30s/3m etc, and I'm conveniently forgetting about Death Coil <--- My biggest whine i am unable to toy with you like you're a mob - you actually react aggressively and use your class abilities :P

But yeah the trinket change imo is a great move, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with fearing or seducing an undead warrior....

Why undead? I've no idea, probably because I'm whining about WotF too.

First: Beserking or what ever its called "I haven't bothered to research the abilities of a class that's causing me problems in PvP" = Immune to fear
Second: Will Of Forsaken/Trinket = Thats got undead players or rogues out of that seduce
Third: Which ever from the second is not on CD (if you're an undead rogue) = Me trying to justify how bad I am as a warlock with even more theorycrap.

I can't beat warriors one on one because I haven't bothered to learn their abilities and figure out how to counter them, but Night Elf gurls are sexy LOL :)

I can't even seduce/nuke. It's pathetic :)

Fixed.

Eisenheim
25-05-2007, 07:49 AM
A warrior raped my 11k health in the arena in 2 seconds, he didnt even use execute..

i should have taken a screenshot

nref warios

Rey
25-05-2007, 07:52 AM
I raped a whole eos team with only a priest and pala healing me..

And i have the screenshot

nref warios

Stim
25-05-2007, 07:55 AM
I r killed whole CoI raid while PvP flagged once.
Tru story.

Mandolin
25-05-2007, 09:09 AM
I r killed whole CoI raid while PvP flagged once.
Tru story.


Would you be so kind to stay still a sec, I'd like to enslave you and then use as my favorite pet, you, brave hero? ;)

Stim
25-05-2007, 09:29 AM
Nooo waaaai.
Soul-link hurts... awww! XD

Mandolin
25-05-2007, 09:45 AM
what a shame, not use of my dark pact with you :)
but still, worth to do it, come here..;)

Cachero
25-05-2007, 10:21 AM
Dear warrior population,

You are one of the many classes rogues have problems against.
Altho you ARE the biggest threat. I have been ranking up arena rating like evening after evening, only to get it smacked down within 10 games by reaching the 1800 + brackets and finding all the Warrior + Paladin teams who insta gibbed me or Hugakiller.

Why would you worry about that trinket that can't dispell our crippling if you can kill us within an intercept stun. Yes it has been done to me... Alot.

Pushing out 2.5 k mortal strikes, 2k melee crits and 1.8k whirlwinds or 2k + heroic strikes while wearing plate and 11k health is not something a rogue can't beat. Only when proper specced and with the right gear and even ten its trouble.

We have abilities like sap, blind and whatnot. But you guys have hamstring, a snare wich cannot be dispelled by most classes. An AoE fear, a charge and intercept. A self healing attack. An immune to fear, a disarm ability, An attack that crits for 2.5k + and reduces the healing by 50 % on top of that.

Seriously, warriors still own rogues in any field, and if you don't agree. You haven't been fighting the proper warriors then. Or you aren't a proper one.

-Cachero

PS: I just woke up so don't flame me for anything ;)

Chopper
25-05-2007, 10:33 AM
Crippling poison can be used by a rogue to kite a warrior just inside 8 yards, preventing us from Intercepting, as I'm sure you're aware. The previous version of the trinket enabled us to dispel the crippling poison, move out to 8+ yards and use a close range Intercept. I'm gonna miss being able to do that. So, yeah - /whine

That being said, rogues are relatively easy for warriors, so I can only agree with Cach here.

Gwynin
25-05-2007, 10:48 AM
"Pushing out 2.5 k mortal strikes, 2k melee crits and 1.8k whirlwinds or 2k + heroic strikes while wearing plate and 11k health is not something a rogue can't beat. Only when proper specced and with the right gear and even ten its trouble"

Oh and doing all those wild things as a warrior doesnt require the proper spec and right gear ? Go back to sleep

Stim
25-05-2007, 11:10 AM
Cachero sucks tbh... 2.5 k mortal strikes, 2k melee crits and 1.8k whirlwinds or 2k + heroic strikes
M.. That makes total of 8300 hp... if you don't receive any healing yet. You're not dead nor your cooldowns are used. Receive heals, turn on cooldowns, ?????, profit.
Or if 2 rogues = stealthsneak, blindfest,and ambushrape. Cry about balance more.

Hearst
25-05-2007, 11:21 AM
Dear warrior population,

You are one of the many classes rogues have problems against.
Altho you ARE the biggest threat. I have been ranking up arena rating like evening after evening, only to get it smacked down within 10 games by reaching the 1800 + brackets and finding all the Warrior + Paladin teams who insta gibbed me or Hugakiller.I can vouch for that.

Cachero
25-05-2007, 01:27 PM
Cachero sucks tbh...
M.. That makes total of 8300 hp... if you don't receive any healing yet. You're not dead nor your cooldowns are used. Receive heals, turn on cooldowns, ?????, profit.
Or if 2 rogues = stealthsneak, blindfest,and ambushrape. Cry about balance more.

In that time you can land 1 lesser healing wave, with MS applied thats a 800 heal. Insane. And what cooldowns SHOULD I use?

Evasion -> Overpower..
Vanish -> Rend/Thunderclap
Blind -> Partner will ALWAYS clear that
Sprint -> Hamstring
Cloak of shadows -> Nref!

Oh yeah I can't use cooldowns while in intercept stun / mace stun / weapon proc stun.

-klael.

2 rogues can't beat a paladin and warrior combo if they properly, but yeah you wouldn't know.

Manidim
25-05-2007, 02:21 PM
I must agree with cach, Paladin + MS warrior Combo = Death for most rogues if the said paladin knows anything about how to heal. Only effective thing is wound poison and Mind numbing, this would make crippling unusable but if there's 2 rogues one can cripple and the other just crush the heals. THOUGH this would only be possible if the paladin wouldnt bubble and let the warrior just smash us to bits and pieces due to the oh so lovely stun resist talent. Warrior's (even after the patch) are still the class i tend to "oh shit! Deep thunder PvP geared thing coming this way, RUN FER YER LIVES!"

Manidim
25-05-2007, 02:25 PM
Cachero sucks tbh...
M.. That makes total of 8300 hp... if you don't receive any healing yet. You're not dead nor your cooldowns are used. Receive heals, turn on cooldowns, ?????, profit.
Or if 2 rogues = stealthsneak, blindfest,and ambushrape. Cry about balance more. You're right. This would give a real good profit! 2 dead Rogues.

Tsarina
25-05-2007, 07:21 PM
. Only when proper specced
How is this different from other classes? The only ones I know that don't respec weekly for PvP in the guild, are palas and shadowpriests.

with the right gear and even ten its trouble.
Yes, only rogues needs "the right" gear.


We have abilities like sap, blind and whatnot. But you guys have hamstring, a snare wich cannot be dispelled by most classes. An AoE fear, a charge and intercept. A self healing attack. An immune to fear, a disarm ability, An attack that crits for 2.5k + and reduces the healing by 50 % on top of that.
Self healing attack and reduce healing by 50% attack!

Seriously, warriors still own rogues in any field Yes we do. And that's the one class we beat. How many classes do you normally beat? Less than 1?
(Just before Hongten comments on this, as he loves to do. Spec matters. He beats me half the time in duels when I'm PvE specced. In PvP spec it's just a joke. I end the duel with more HP than I start with.)


So you struggle with 1 combo. I don't feel sorry for you. Pretty much every 2X DPS caster teams are hard for me. They are not for you.

Oh, and use evasion vs warriors. Anyone saying otherwise is either a nub rogue or a nub warrior. Or both.

Hammett
26-05-2007, 12:26 PM
Fury warriors, for example, are piss easy imo. But yes, i do agree with Cach.

In a duel a rogue can beat a warrior if he knows what he is doing, and plan his abilities well and in order, but in world pvp/BG pvp, if a rogue is spotted by the warrior (which would typically be an MS specced one since you can run around in shit gear and still deal out insane damage) he is dead. Theres not much to do.

I'm not whining at all - the warrior beats rogue thing is long lost to me, i just laugh when i see a 12k HP full arena geared warrior kill me wtih 3 hits. Or i try atleast to avoid them when i can :P

xexa
27-05-2007, 12:39 PM
I really dont understand all this crying about warriors...

Facts:
* Blizzard doesnt regard dueling as pvp. The competitional PVP game is BG and Arenas. There is no Arena for 1vs1 so comparing classes, and crying about not being able to win duels to other classes, doenst make sense as the game is played today. Dueling is just a fun part of the game wich is only important for thoose who want ego trips of beying good alone, and WoW is a team play game...
* 99% od the top 5vs5 arena teams do have warriors, half of the 2vs2 arena teams have warriors. In 9 classes available, we are one of wich the moust participations in the arena ladder!
* Warriors are usually top dps in their arena teams, and many times in BGs also.


Regarding duels rogues are not that weaker against warriors. It depends on the rogue, if he tries to just kill us fast then we can kill him, he will die. Everything he dodges we overpower. Their defensive "skill" dodge allows to use a very strong attack, and our defensive "skill" armour just keeps filtering their dmg. A skilled rogue makes u incapable 75% of the fight and nows how to time his skills for when he dodges to run away, and wait for the overpower cooldown use to be over... But i must say that rogues that do know how to do this are a minority.

Having said that, I must agree that the DW/Enrage issue nerf didnt make any sense. Both are deep in the midle of the Fury tree. Fury warriors spent 5 points in enrage to get flury for dps. DW is a major skill in fury tree, it makes no sense that we have to spent 5+5+1 points and get 2 major buffs that dont stack. I could live without the enrage, in fact i only have it because i need flurry, but having to spend 5 points in a talent that i dont need, and then it doenst stack with another major talent in fury... well that makes absolutely no-sense.

Besides we are having equip with loads of stamina and resilience, and regarding 5vs5 arena teams i would much prefer the tier4 dps. In my team when i am being ganked usually the other 4 members of the team are already dead so... i dont think both the stamina and resilience is such help. I do prefer dmg so i can kill a clothie first. Bigger resilience means less enrage... And with this nerf of the stack made enrage even more weeker, especially for thoose warriors that go for PvE damage before PvP.

I am not crying about how week we are, i dont think we are weeker then any other class, i just think the change didnt made any sense.

But i do understand why the change was needed... With the new 41 talents not so ubber in both arms and fury tree, and with nice talents as MS, DW, Enrage, Fury, etc... We have seen almoust all the PvP warriors respeccing 31/30, and i must admit that stacking MS, with enrage, flurry and DW on top of it, might be unbalanced in arena.

I do believe that the best way to fix this, was to remove enrage from where it is, and pass it to the deep arms tree. In a way that would be impossible to stack MS/enrage/DW/flurry all together. That way full PvE dps warriors didnt need to spent 5 points in a talent that they might not use that much.

Hearst
27-05-2007, 01:21 PM
But why prevent MS/Enrage/DW and Flurry... All the other classes got 10 extra talent points but none of them are having their talents nerfed because of that. I mean what's the point of the extra talent points if the talents we get will be nerfed.

xexa
27-05-2007, 01:46 PM
But why prevent MS/Enrage/DW and Flurry... All the other classes got 10 extra talent points but none of them are having their talents nerfed because of that. I mean what's the point of the extra talent points if the talents we get will be nerfed.

Why? well... if u have a class that in the overall pvp damage can shine, U also want to have one of the moust usefull pvp skills (MS), stacking with damage burst (DW/enrage/flurry) dont u think its unfair for the clothies? I can reach white damage crits of 2K in 1h, with that stacking ... i imagine that with 2h and MS...

And moust of the times U are not behing it, because all the enemy team is going for clothies and healers, while u get a random whirlwhind crit from another warrior, and start stacking all that to cut trough their clothies... I do agree thar MS cannot be used with the stack of (DW/Enrage/flurry)

Hammett
27-05-2007, 03:52 PM
Regarding duels rogues are not that weaker against warriors. It depends on the rogue, if he tries to just kill us fast then we can kill him, he will die. Everything he dodges we overpower. Their defensive "skill" dodge allows to use a very strong attack, and our defensive "skill" armour just keeps filtering their dmg. A skilled rogue makes u incapable 75% of the fight and nows how to time his skills for when he dodges to run away, and wait for the overpower cooldown use to be over... But i must say that rogues that do know how to do this are a minority.

Oh, btw. That's just shit really.

A skilled rogue makes u incapable 75% of the fight and nows how to time his skills for when he dodges to run away

Do remember that a average warrior has got 20% Stun resist if specced MS, a orc a shitload more. So the we really can't count on the stuns. And you also have a trinket that removes any stun effect, if timed right, it will let you win the battle.

Tsarina
27-05-2007, 04:21 PM
Bigger resilience means less enrage ... A lot of odd comments, but let me comment on this one:
No.

Chopper
27-05-2007, 05:49 PM
Why? well... if u have a class that in the overall pvp damage can shine, U also want to have one of the moust usefull pvp skills (MS), stacking with damage burst (DW/enrage/flurry) dont u think its unfair for the clothies? I can reach white damage crits of 2K in 1h, with that stacking ... i imagine that with 2h and MS...

And moust of the times U are not behing it, because all the enemy team is going for clothies and healers, while u get a random whirlwhind crit from another warrior, and start stacking all that to cut trough their clothies... I do agree thar MS cannot be used with the stack of (DW/Enrage/flurry)

Yeah, our situational burst damage with DW/Enrage that could only occur when we were getting the crap kicked out of us during a 30s window every 3 minutes was way too much compared to other classes who only seem to be able to nuke me at will for upwards of 3k from way outside melee range.

Maybe Rend should be buffed then?

To 500-800 damage per tick over 30 seconds, and we can apply it from 30 fucking yards away...

Hearst
27-05-2007, 07:30 PM
Xexa please take notice that we do not always have an army of buffers and healers with a perma-WF totem buff. Also can you show me a pic of your 1h 2k crit (assuming its in the arena ofcourse.) Thats all :>

xexa
27-05-2007, 09:13 PM
I used to have critline taking pictures of dmg records...

however since i start fighting Curator all the records were fucked up, besides i had to shut it down, or i would missed the hole fight during the evocation, with screenshots lagging my pc. For the last few months i dont have pictures


http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4141/wowscrnshot052707215832dl2.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot052707215832dl2.jpg)

i dunno if we can just try and calculate the original damage sustained without the 200% extra damage... i do believe moust of the records were without enrage...

But the discussion is not about what i can crit in 1h, but what a MS warrior with all buffs can crit with nice gear.

Maybe there are classes that might have a bigger burst damage. Yesterday in arena i was almoust instantly killed by a fire mage. Between is 6K pyro crit, and the rest of the crits of his fire attacks.... my healer didnt had time to heal me in time. Altough if i had survived, what was is a fire mage survaivability in arena?

Hearst
27-05-2007, 11:21 PM
Well that picture means you were in a raid, buffed, probably potted with full Rampage and I suppose with Deathwish active which no longer stacks with Enrage. So I doubt this would've happened in an arena environment where you describe the overpoweredness of warriors and much less in solo (the other side of PvP.)

As far as the fire mage is concerned it's only wise for non-frost mages to be in 3v3 and 2v2 arenas where they can take out early one of the opposite team members so they get the number advantage. In 5v5 the majority are frost.

Rogues scale well with good gear too and many times will outdps warriors in arenas. While everyone is talking about the Mortal Strike debuff (which was not overpowered pre-TBC.. when warriors were weak) they tend to neglect other key abilities of other classes. The rogue stunning the focus target is very important as well as Blinding and using stacking poisons to make dispelling difficult, mages can Polymorph and Counterspell heals that can be fatal. Druids Cycloning can affect the entire game, warlocks can become CC machines and very difficult to take down when properly specced, priests provide the healing power for most teams and can provide a large damage boost to the team as well as regen. The shamans can use Heroism to give more burst damage and have virtually uninterruptable heals as well as very powerful temporary buffs like WF totem, paladins of course for their bubble and also Blessing of Protection to prevent a focus target attempt. Hunters I have to admit are somewhat of a failure in arenas in my eyes as except for frost trap they can't run, dps when focus fired or interrupt reliably. QQ Hunters.

The only reason MS is getting more complaints than Cyclone is because it can crit for 2k. To be honest, we (at least I) don't crit for over 2.5k MS all that often and I have 1.5ksomething AP after patch. You said it, it's the buffs and support that do half the damage. I'd be very annoyed if I didn't do that damage when supported..

xexa
27-05-2007, 11:58 PM
Well that picture means you were in a raid, buffed, probably potted with full Rampage and I suppose with Deathwish active which no longer stacks with Enrage. So I doubt this would've happened in an arena environment where you describe the overpoweredness of warriors and much less in solo (the other side of PvP.)

Did i said warriors could crit 2K 1h without buffs? When i mentioned 2k ofc i wasnt refering to damage unbuffed...

I dunno about U, but in arena specially the long fights, i try to keep rampage always up. I didnt said we were overpowered, i said that u can complain all u want, and we still one of the moust (if not the moust) representative class in pvp ladders.

During the raid (with the 1h crit white damage record) the only thing i remember having other then i usually have in arena was the sharpening stones (wich u can use in arena), and the AP hunter buff. I was using Paladin BoS, in arena i use 10% stats... And again i had no enrage...

And the armour of a raid boss compared to a clothie?

And why is "solo" "the other side of pvp"? There is no pvp solo. Do u have dueling ladders? Dueling Points? Dueling rewards? Arenas 1vs1?

PvP and all in WoW that is challeging is done by team play, so if u like to play alone and u wanna be happy trigger without suport, yes i do agre a warrior is weak go reroll a warlock!

Or u can make one of thoose posts that i have seen, asking for new talents and spells: stacking of rend and deep wounds, a auto-heal spell, a cc spell, a evasive spell, a counter-cc spell...

from the beginning the definition of Warrior as always be clear by Blizzard... by your talk u dont seem to think that warriors are nerfed, u just seem to be unhappy with the definition of warrior!

Rogues scale well with good gear too and many times will outdps warriors in arenas. While everyone is talking about the Mortal Strike debuff (which was not overpowered pre-TBC.. when warriors were weak) they tend to neglect other key abilities of other classes. The rogue stunning the focus target is very important as well as Blinding and using stacking poisons to make dispelling difficultYes, i do know a rogue that outdps me half the times in Arena, and yes i had been having problems with 2vs2 rogue teams with poisons...

Hearst
28-05-2007, 12:13 AM
Did i said warriors could crit 2K 1h without buffs? When i mentioned 2k ofc i wasnt refering to damage unbuffed...

I dunno about U, but in arena specially the long fights, i try to keep rampage always up. I didnt said we were overpowered, i said that u can complain all u want, and we still one of the moust (if not the moust) representative class in pvp ladders.

During the raid (with the 1h crit white damage record) the only thing i remember having other then i usually have in arena was the sharpening stones (wich u can use in arena), and the AP hunter buff. I was using Paladin BoS, in arena i use 10% stats... And again i had no enrage...

And the armour of a raid boss compared to a clothie?

And why is "solo" "the other side of pvp"? There is no pvp solo. Do u have dueling ladders? Dueling Points? Dueling rewards? Arenas 1vs1?

PvP and all in WoW that is challeging is done by team play, so if u like to play alone and u wanna be happy trigger without suport, yes i do agre a warrior is weak go reroll a warlock!

Or u can make one of thoose posts that i have seen, asking for new talents and spells: stacking of rend and deep wounds, a auto-heal spell, a cc spell, a evasive spell, a counter-cc spell...

from the beginning the definition of Warrior as always be clear by Blizzard... by your talk u dont seem to think that warriors are nerfed, u just seem to be unhappy with the definition of warrior!

Yes, i do know a rogue that outdps me half the times in Arena, and yes i had been having problems with 2vs2 rogue teams with poisons...

While reading your reply all I saw is a load of well you know what especially your attempts to put words in my mouth. So there is no solo-Pvp... That's weird because in open Pvp you can't ask your opponents to wait until your healer arrives or in the BGs you don't get everyone to follow you. Also you cannot use Sharpening stones in arenas. I have a warlock. A raid debuffed boss has 5% physical damage mitigation the average clothie has 15%. Please tell me the clear definition Blizzard has stated for warriors concerning Pvp. In my original post I said everything I felt wrong with the class. I'm not unhappy with the definition of warrior... (wtf does that even mean) I just want the class to be left the fuck alone.

Stim
28-05-2007, 06:41 AM
Rogues turned this thread into whine party. In 2v2 It's not about rouge trying to overpower warrior it's about who gets enemy healer first. Last time I cheked rogues pewpew healers while having a beer. Try druids as partner maybe if you like healing? The only thing warrior will be able to is fear and overpower (maybe sweeping overpower sometimes).
Simplest scenario that works unless warrior get like 15 crits in a row.
Wound poison/crippling.
Stealth, if pala sap fails cs open on paladin, cripple/ignore warrior, blind paladin, focus warrior with stunlock. In this place paladin bubbles to heal warrior and self -> 1 minute Foebearance. Sprint, stealth/vanish. Wait for bubble to over. Second blind/sap puts paladin out fo combat effectively. Destroy warrior with cooldowns. With 11000 hp I live approx 10 seconds against 2 rogues, convinient, innit? Paladin afks.
Takes about 2 minutes.
Difficult?

p.s stunresist sucks

xexa
28-05-2007, 01:29 PM
Also you cannot use Sharpening stones in arenas.Yes u can. Or at least i could use them before the patch! the thing is, u need to buff them in each arena (inside and in inventory), and its a bit expensive...

That's weird because in open Pvp you can't ask your opponents to wait until your healer arrives or in the BGs you don't get everyone to follow you.Have u ever gone to BGs pugs with a friend healing U?

A raid debuffed boss has 5% physical damage mitigation the average clothie has 15% 4,1*0.5 = 2,05 (because of the 200% damage); (2.05*100)/95 = 2,15789 (assuming 0% damage mitigation); 0,85x2,15789 = 1,834 (15% damage mitigation U said for clothies)

And now i repeat this all was without enrage, i dunno if i had both trinckets procked at him, the one i can use i must have had them, cause i save him for evocation, but the other its a random crit proc, and not that very good procing rate...

With enrage (before patch) i would had hit him: 1,834*1,25= 2,2925

I dunno if i can do this calculations linearly, there are many variables involved, for example the 4,1 was after patch and my AP was a bit buffed, but i am just trying to make my point, wich is not entirely On Topic...

I am not selling warriors, and U are free to disagree all U want, but i dont think its polite to doubt my word when i said that i had hit clothies for 2K...

In 2v2 It's not about rouge trying to overpower warrior it's about who gets enemy healer first. Last time I cheked rogues pewpew healers while having a beer.I had problems yesterday when i had a rogue/shaman in 2vs2 a lot of times in a row. And with poisons he could kill the paladin, before i could kill the shaman. The shaman was a pain in the ass to kill. After 3 losses, we tried and kill the rogue first, we saved our cc (stun and AoE Fear) for when the rogue was below half his life, and it worked fine, then we just had a long time to kill the invulnerable shaman...

Moomonde
28-05-2007, 03:04 PM
Summary is what has been happening over the last 2 years is nerfing our damage on both the burst and consistent areas


Buffs
-Bloodthirst - Design changed. Bloodthirst is now an instant melee attack that causes damage equal to 30% of the warrior's attack power. In addition, the next 5 successful melee attacks will restore health.
---Bloodthirst - Damage bonus increased to 40% of attack power.
---Bloodthirst - The damage component has been increased to 45% of attack power.
- The rage normalization equation has been adjusted to grant more rage. The typical warrior should see an increase of 15% to 20% in their rage generation.
- All warriors had their critical strike chance adjusted upward slightly (about 1%).



Nerf (1.9 - AQ released, Fury Warr damage begins to really soar through the roof)
-Enrage - The talent will now grant 5/10/15/20/25% extra damage when enraged, instead of 8/16/24/33/40%.



Those are all the buffs/nerfs to warrior damage that I myself have deemed to be 'major', up to, but not including Patch 2.1.0

As you can see, the only major nerf was with enrage when AQ opened and the gear that DPS warriors crave was made available.

Notice something? There are hardly any major changes. Do the same with a druid and you'll be there all night long because it took blizzard so bloody long to fix the class. Warriors are the core class. They were made so perfectly before WoW was released that bugger all changes were required. And they had to, warriors are the flagship class. Lead from the front, most common class in the game with loads of GMs being warriors (Forte, Method, even our own Automatic and OTD) and as has been already said, essential to the success of many Arena teams.

So no, blizz has not spent two years nerfing your class, it hasn't done that to any class in the game.

Solo PvP was almost meaningless. This is a multiplayer game and heck, we're even on a PvE realm. If you want to world PvP then you'll have more fun in groups.

Jarelan
28-05-2007, 05:02 PM
No-one said "gnome warrior lol" yet?

:D

Utena
28-05-2007, 05:31 PM
Dont get me started on gnome warriors ;)