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View Full Version : Warriors, tanking priorities.


Taurusos
16-05-2007, 08:25 AM
My question is, how does the warrior community on SS gem themselves up?
And enchants?

After having checked the armories of many of the bigger guilds on allinace and horde side and their warriors, seems like many are imo stuck with the idea that sta > all?

Im not a believer of that sta is the most important attribute for tanks anymore, unless fights such as Hydross where you rely on high sta mixed with resistance of x type.

Heard horror stories about warrior walking around with 12 sta gems all around their gear, for what? Having 14000+ hp and 14-16 % dodge?
Same warriors gotten 2 shotted during a reverb or pulling worldbosses.

So make an input, motivate your choice of gemming/enchanting your gear.

My gear, I go ONLy for avoidance first. I value stamina secondary. With Sun Eater reaching a respectable 24.32 unbuffed dodge %. Pre 2.1 when buffing up, still hitting 19500-20000k hp.
In 2.1 the HP will be around the same, maybe just a bit less but even more avoidance due to upgrades. Feel that with the choices im sporting for example on Gruul I have been able to live through a 12-13 growth silence without getting hit.

Although, I guess choice are dependant if you regularly MT or OT. Most bosses in the game atm, specially the early ones, kill through MELEE damage. Which should and must be avoided. I dont see how a primary focus on stamina would help against that?
What is your view on this?

My armory: http://armory.wow-europe.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Shadowsong&n=Taurusos

/Tau

Faylin
16-05-2007, 08:46 AM
Ok, avoidance saves healer mana. Stamina makes sure you don't get one, or maybe two shot.

In my opinion, tanks get killed more often by a quick succession of big blows then by healers going OOM. That's why I agree to the idea of stamina being the most important tankstat.
Avoidance is great, but even with 20% dodge and parry you can still have a big amount of burst damage taking you down quickly.

tin
16-05-2007, 09:21 AM
WAIT A MINUTE!! I'm not a warrior... anyway:

My opinion is, that once you're defense capped, go for stamina. This is due to Blizzard's failed itemization. It makes sense to stack +12 sta gems (if money is not a problem), since they are more beneficial than +8 dodge / +8 defense gems. Even with 50% dodge you still take 3-4-5 consecutive hits once in a while. If you have enough stamina, you live. If you dont, you die (oh teh noes, corpserun).

Usually, in bossfights, I'm getting heals on me, even when I'm on a dodge-streak, and since healers rarely run out of mana nowadays (we mostly got paladins doing the bulk of MT healing), I find myself dying less with more stamina.

-Tin

Stim
16-05-2007, 09:31 AM
Stamina all over the place... Magics attacks don't give a shit about avoidance.

Taurusos
16-05-2007, 09:48 AM
Stamina all over the place... Magics attacks don't give a shit about avoidance.

How much do you raid? What kills tanks in the raiding game is melee:

Moroes
Prince
Maulgar
Gruul
Mag
Lurk
Morgrim
Karathress
Vashj
Curator
Voidreaver

/Tau

Stim
16-05-2007, 10:08 AM
Moroes
Prince
Maulgar
Gruul
Mag
Been there seen that... stamina also scales with BoK and Last Stand making MT jaggernaut bitch. Also those evasion bursts lower your generated rage, don't they?

Taurusos
16-05-2007, 10:13 AM
So you have seen those bosses, then why did you even take magical damage that is a small amount, margin, into the disucssion?

Rage isnt any issue on these bosses...

And mentioning LS is kinda moot as the duration is meant as ohshit move and its a 10 min cd.

Proper thinking: entire duration of combat 100 down to 0 %.

/Tau

Stim
16-05-2007, 10:21 AM
So you have seen those bosses, then why did you even take magical damage that is a small amount, margin, into the disucssion?
K, you won :D
I never MTed those ones, ima heroic tankard, where all those bitches pewpew with uninterruptable magics. But I believe it's not about Avoidance over HP or vice versa. Balanced gearing owns IMO.

Valoran
16-05-2007, 10:27 AM
Stamina is the cheapest tank stat overall from same level gems. If it was 10 dodge or only 9 stamina, I would see your point tau, but as things stand you're better off socketing with 12 stamina in every slot (rare occasions where you could socket 12 stam and 8 dodge for a decent socket bonus wouldn't be so bad ;)) but in pure ipoints terms, stamina is king.

As stated earlier, kings increases your HP pool based on your stamina, so solid star's of elune actually give 13.8 stamina or 138 hp each in raid conditions.

Stim, balancing your gear is a great ideal to hold - it's just wrong in this case, as Blizzard have made stamina the most worthwhile stat around. ;)

Kinshara
16-05-2007, 10:31 AM
Mostly been stacking stamina on my tank after hitting 490, though I've increased the avoidance as well with new gear pieces (513 def now, with a little +dodge/+parry/+block).

Most of the time I hold up pretty well, the stamina is for the times I get stunned and lose all avoidance, or the times I get unlucky with the rng.

Faylin
16-05-2007, 10:31 AM
Stim, balancing your gear is a great ideal to hold - it's just wrong in this case, as Blizzard have made stamina the most worthwhile stat around. ;)

Well balancing is still a good idea due to itemization: the more different stats an item has, the more stats it has in total.

So I would still pick something with lets say 40 stamina and 18 dodge rating over something with 50 stamina, but yeh, when given the choice between 12 stamina and 8 dodge rating, like gems, then stamina all the way.

Kabhanda
16-05-2007, 03:40 PM
Lets take a random boss, call him Fatbastard Murloclover, and assume his normal melee swing is ~7k, his earthquake is ~4k his tidal wave is ~4k and he can land 2 melee swings 1 quake and 1 wave in ~2 secs. Assuming you have shield block up, and a decent block value thats ~20k damage. You have 2 choices, enough stamina to survive every time (if on full hp, and since wave and quake are on timers, you will always be full when this can happen) or a higher chance of not all hits landing. So you either always live, or chance it. its just flat out better to be sure you can live than to have a better chance of not being hit (unless that chance is 100%).

And even once you have enough hp to never be one rounded, more stam still gives more leeway for healers, whereas more avoidance leads to very hard to predict miss and hit streaks, which are harder to heal efficiently. (basically the avoided hits save alot less mana than most tanks probably think.)

Shadewalk
16-05-2007, 04:24 PM
I think its going to be something which depend more on the boss/ability you are tanking than anything else.

Take a boss who needs 1 MT and one OT to soak some sort of off hit.

As some have said the MT is likely going to need a ton of stam for many bosses so as to be able to take the maximum combo of hits from the boss in ~2 seconds, mean while an OT is likely only taken a more predictable set of hits and possibly being healed more reflexively than proactively.

As such an MT may need to stack stam with enough avoidence to avoid crits etc, while the OT would more likely benefit from mostly avoidence provided he can always take the one hit and heals are coming in good time to take the next hit.

But think on some bosses, like the second BM boss, he is impossible to do (with out silly gear) without enough avoidence so you loose the debuff before you can't get healed anymore, if that idea was scaled in some way to a raid boss avoidence would be the way to do it.

Come to think of it resistance is very similar to avoidence, thinking first of the three BWL dragons, nobody would have done that without maxing the FR, so essentailly you stacked avoidence until you could loose the stacks of death regularly enough to not wipe, mind I'm sure we all have memories of a 20-30+ stack on the MT and thinking... whats the point of FR some times...

Taurusos
16-05-2007, 04:39 PM
Extremly nice replies by all, specially tnx Khly and Shade.

Have to get the feel of more tanking further in SSC etc to start making (if any) changes needed.

Then again, some critical items I miss which can make sure I can up my hp pool without losing too much avoidance.

/Tau

Chonar
16-05-2007, 05:42 PM
Dodge and Stamina first prio, Defense second, Strength and Parry Last.

Mojo
16-05-2007, 06:06 PM
Spell hit to avoid taunt resists!

▄ber
16-05-2007, 06:12 PM
Spell crit for hardcore taunts? :O

Stim
16-05-2007, 06:16 PM
x_X

Tsarina
16-05-2007, 06:44 PM
Tanking isn't my "area of expertise", but some huge guy at some gym taught me something once upon a time:

"If you're ever insecure on what to do or how to do it, go over to the biggest son of a bitch you see at the gym, and ask him. Because he must have done something right. "

I mean no offense to my own guild or my fellow Shadowsong raiders, but we're not exactly the biggest sons of bitches at the gym. However, if you check Death and Taxes and Nihilum's tanks, they have pretty much 12 stam only. The odd, 6def/6stam, but those are few and far between. And like them or not, they must have done something right.

Đightrain
16-05-2007, 06:54 PM
There was a gym in wow? o.O

Kzuhl
16-05-2007, 11:46 PM
http://evilempireguild.org/guides/after490.php

zanzanexpo
18-05-2007, 04:39 PM
Normally if the healers go OOM, Its poor execution or shitty DPS.

Taurusos
18-05-2007, 06:04 PM
Zanzan, dps and execution can be good you know.

Some healers tend to panic and overheal in certain moments.

For that, what we at least _try_ to do during our raids is to have some kind of rotation for healing.

As in who casts g-heals and who flashes the toilet. Works good unless damage spikes.

/Tau

Thordyn
18-05-2007, 06:14 PM
Ok, avoidance saves healer mana
In my experience, this isn't true.
Yeah I don't like watching my mana go down the drain as the tank goes on a massive dodge/parry streak, taking no damage for 15 seconds. However on fights like Hydross where there could be a hit for 95% of the tank's hp somewhere in there, it's never a good idea to be cancelling heals. It's just not worth it. I've tried to ween our healers off cancelling too much, because nowadays it's easy to go through any boss fight in 25-man TBC without cancelling a single heal. I know because I do it most of the time. It just requires some sensible mana management, such as abusing Shadowfiend on any fight that's longer than 5 minutes, and sensible use of pots.

I'd far prefer to see the Tank getting hit and my heal doing something, than the tank not getting hit for 10 seconds, every healer around me cancelling their next heals, then the tank getting kicked in the lips for 18k and the only heal landing in the next 2.5 seconds being mine.

So yeah avoidance doesn't, or shouldn't save healer mana at all.
Khly's post is the most sensible explanation of tank stat prioritising I've read so far.

Faylin
18-05-2007, 07:36 PM
I more like meant, IF avoidance does anything good, it's that. Like I said, I choose stamina

Malakali
09-06-2007, 08:43 AM
I like having alot of stamina and defense and recently im going for more block and dodge rating like tau is touching upon - its useful and +12 stam gems are fuck off expensive and i r teh poor mhm

chaga
11-06-2007, 07:09 AM
I think that stm is the most imported in the start until you get to a point.
(From 5 man normal doesn’t matter if the tank has 14 or 18 k health).
Here I think that the avoiders are better.
On the healing part I think if you split out the healing so all just now what to heal overhealing is not a trouble on bosses.

Theory
02-07-2007, 01:35 AM
I agree with the random / Balanced gear.
You need all atleast abit.

btw tau, What does this mean?

uʍop əpỊsdn pəuɹnʇ pəddỊlɟ ʇoნ əɟỊl
ʎɯ ʍoɥ ʇnoqɐ llɐ ʎɹoʇs ɐ sỊ sỊɥʇ ʍoN

miganto
02-07-2007, 01:46 AM
Read it backwards..and upside down

start of the answer coming soon...

...


...


...

Now this is a.........

Utena
02-07-2007, 09:16 PM
erm Fresh prince

thurlog
02-07-2007, 09:44 PM
/golfclap