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View Full Version : Combat Daggers or Mutilate for dps?


Ajial
11-05-2007, 09:29 PM
Pros / Cons ?

Discuss!

Đightrain
11-05-2007, 10:17 PM
R 4 casuals! subtelty r 4 pvp gudness! L2P!

Hammett
12-05-2007, 12:02 PM
Combat Daggers.

Abberare
12-05-2007, 05:14 PM
Combat Daggers.
.

Theleb
12-05-2007, 06:10 PM
I got more DPS out of Combat Daggers than I did with Mutilate....even 41/20 combat mutilate with DW Spec doesn't keep up with 15/41/5 in my experience - for sustained DPS at least.

41/20 or 41/13/7 will have more burst DPS but peak more quickly and then fall behind as BF/AR makes itself felt.

Hammett
12-05-2007, 09:53 PM
.

Stabstalker
13-05-2007, 04:27 AM
combat daggers

Ajial
13-05-2007, 09:15 AM
Seems like an easy answer, thanks!

Metrix
15-05-2007, 07:14 AM
If you want pure PvE spec, go CD (15/41/5 if you don't care about heroics, 13/41/7 if you do). If you want good PvE spec that is also valuable in PvP - go Mutilate and get yourself good weapons (Gladiator's MH + Malchazeen, for example).

Hongten
15-05-2007, 07:23 AM
combat daggers

Gpx
15-05-2007, 08:11 AM
ive just collected the mats for the drakefist hammer :(
this thread makes me wanna kill myself :(
any point going
Mutilate / maces
or
Combat / maces?
or am i better to sell my mats and buy 2 Ced's carvers lawl
Thanks.

Metrix
15-05-2007, 08:37 AM
Mutilate / maces is impossible - Mutilate is for daggers only. So definitely no point in that spec :)

Regarding combat / maces - I'm not sure that it is possible to make a valuable PvE spec with maces. Mace specialisation does not bring any additional DPS, like all other specs do.

Gpx
15-05-2007, 08:42 AM
sooo lets not make the mace... hurrah?
Just levelled f'ing blacksmithing..
so mutilate is a balanced pve and pvp spec?

Gpx
15-05-2007, 09:54 AM
bumping for the sake of my GLOD.

Theleb
15-05-2007, 10:17 AM
Actually, while Combat Daggers is "the" DPS built, I don't see anything wrong with a Combat Mace Spec but the stun effect is mostly worthless (apart from some trash) so you need to find some way of offsetting that "filler" talent IMO (If you really want to go maces)

Here's a link you should find useful - The EJ DPS Spreadsheet:

http://rogue.bleedo.net/

Also, an informative article on PvE builds over on the Roguespot forums:

http://forums.roguespot.com/viewtopic.php?t=5400

One thing of note with Mace builds:

Haste is the single biggest weapon attribute (once you have decent amounts of AP/Hit/Crit) that adds to DPS due to its synergy with Combat Potency. I've seen a couple of people running Dragonmaw/Blackout Truncheon with either the Abacus of Violent Odds, or the Dragonspine Trophy (or both) to get as many +haste procs as possible (don't forget twin Mongose enchants as well ;p )

Its possible that a combat mace build might pump out very decent dps but its all very anecdotal and subjective atm - I haven't tried one personally so I can't vouch for the veracity of any rumours :)

Hammett
15-05-2007, 10:20 AM
The mace is still nice. Just go for a normal combat ZERGRUSHKEKE AR build.

Gpx
15-05-2007, 10:37 AM
so ill make the mace and swear a lot at you people if its crap. :-)
might not be so bad for pvp aswell...
cheers :)

Gpx
15-05-2007, 10:38 AM
Actually, while Combat Daggers is "the" DPS built, I don't see anything wrong with a Combat Mace Spec but the stun effect is mostly worthless (apart from some trash) so you need to find some way of offsetting that "filler" talent IMO (If you really want to go maces)

Here's a link you should find useful - The EJ DPS Spreadsheet:

http://rogue.bleedo.net/

Also, an informative article on PvE builds over on the Roguespot forums:

http://forums.roguespot.com/viewtopic.php?t=5400

One thing of note with Mace builds:

Haste is the single biggest weapon attribute (once you have decent amounts of AP/Hit/Crit) that adds to DPS due to its synergy with Combat Potency. I've seen a couple of people running Dragonmaw/Blackout Truncheon with either the Abacus of Violent Odds, or the Dragonspine Trophy (or both) to get as many +haste procs as possible (don't forget twin Mongose enchants as well ;p )

Its possible that a combat mace build might pump out very decent dps but its all very anecdotal and subjective atm - I haven't tried one personally so I can't vouch for the veracity of any rumours :)


Cheers :)

Theleb
15-05-2007, 10:48 AM
That Mace is downright vicious for a Hemo build. Ok, its not as slow as one might like but the damage range is good and with all the +ap buffs available in Sub it hits awfully hard (white damage can be low tho)

Here's another article on pvp builds, in case you find it interesting/useful (look at 25/0/36)

Builds Without Preparation

41-20-0: Combat Mutilate
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0REMoizVohxV0bV

Build of choice for: Pretty much every single 2100+ rated rogue. And me!

Strength:

Most damaging CS->KS stunlock in the game. Highest sustained damage outside of a combat build with AR up. Outstanding blend of yellow and white damage makes this the best PVP/PVE hybrid dagger build. Improved sprint for a third root breaker and quick recovery for +20% healing. CB mutilate can outdamage CB eviscerate with group PVP buffs, and is far easier to pull off during kidney shot. Also much less reliant on openers. A simple gouge->mutilate is 3-5 CP and KS CB mutilate will dent anyone. A note for 2.1.0: Imp kidney shot is now better translated into 2/2 imp ea and 2/2 fleet footed, to aid with being kited, since now two of the classes you will be sicced onto in 5v5, rogue and warlock can break kidney.

Weakness:

Lack of MOD 5 is a problem against other rogues 1v1. For other classes you can just get +1 level to stealth enchant and be done with it. Much more reliant on healer than prep builds, but not as much as combat.. No improved kick. Not a HUGE amount of burst when cold blood is up.


18-43-0 OR 20-41-0: Combat Without QR
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whg0RxZG0EzrVzV0hRt
OR
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhg0ovZG0EzrVzV0oRt

Build of choice for: Almost every singe 2000+ rated rogue until they realized how easily they die without QR. Jairek too

Strength:

High sustained damage without positioning requirement. Improved kick an amazing asset against casters. Riposte does solid damage. Combat potency with a fast offhand adds a lot of extra energy. Good poison application thanks to 40 energy sinister strike spamming. With the fix to poison removal, 20-41-0, to pick up 4/5 vile could be considered. Surprise attack’s undodgeable kidney shot / eviscerate is also very sexy against other rogues/hunters. Improved sprint gives the 3rd root breaker.

Weakness:

Lack of combo point generation makes it hard to EA for your warrior in arena fights. Worst CS->KS stunlock in the game. Lack of MOD 5 a problem against other rogues 1v1. Lack of quick recovery is a serious hit in group PVP, +20% healing is simply invaluable in high level play. Very reliant on healers.

26-35-0: QR Combat
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whg0oEMobZG0EzrVzV0zR

Build of choice for: Nitrana

Strength:

Much more survivable. Similar 1min sustained dps to combat. Stacking snare/root resist with surefooted an option. Cold blood for much more "On Demand" burst than pure combat. Quick recovery cuts needed healer input by A LOT. This CAN be taken with 3 points in combat potency., losing fleet footed and one other, but to me if you spec this way it's for greater survivability, and combat's no1 issue is being kited.

Weakness:

Surprise attacks means you no longer have the muscle to cut a rogue's evasion, or a hunter's aspect of the monkey/deterrance. Smaller yellow damage. No combat potency feels like an impotent build.

Builds With Preparation

30-0-31: Premed Daggers
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=ihecRx0oiZZyMcc0GRcbo

Build of choice for: Nearly every single "World PvP" movie maker. Niar, all of them. Very few arena players.

Strength:

Highest possible front load damage in the game. Best 1v1 & 1vN spec. Best spec when you don’t have a healer. The most versatile PVP build period, the 21822 of TBC 70. Prep’s extra evasion, sprint and vanish coupled with quick recovery gives incredible survivability when focus fired. Mod 5 + heightened sense gives you the edge over other rogues in 1v1 and BG situations. The new 9yard sap makes this killer build.

Weakness:

Low sustained damage once you blow the two cold blood’s. Poor poison application. Too many points spend in subtlety that do nothing once you are out of stealth. Lack of a good CS->KS stunlock with renataki nerf. Front load damage is far less important than sustained damage against turtle teams or plate teams. Very heavy reliance on the opener which can not be taken for granted in 5v5.

38-0-23: Prep Daggers
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihecREMoizZZEMc0MhR

Build of choice for: Zecks

Strengths:

A more rounded build than 30-0-31 that takes into account more talents that make a difference when out of stealth. Less easily kitable. 5/5 Vile allows for wound to stay on, especially post 2.1.0. In 30-0-31 you have to take either 2/3 Ruthlessness, or 1/2 imp ea. Here you have both for deadly throw spamming.

Weaknesses:

Same as 30-0-31, except slightly weaker vs rogues (No Heighetened Senses), and no premed ambush cb evisc. No master of subtelty.

25-0-36: QR Hemo
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0RtMobZZxMjoGhRsxo

Build of choice for: Ming, 4eak!

Strength:

The most survivable build in the game. Prep, QR, Fleet Footed, Camo imp sap ghostly strike and elusiveness. Reasonable burst with 2 cb eviscerates. Premed for an easy first EA (2/2). Excellent for 1on1 duelling, arguably the best. Improved sap (new) is pimp. More useful when focused also, due to setup. Ideally use this with a 2.7 mainhand. Reflex blades or the crafted blacksmith hammer.

Weakness:

Low burst and sustained damage. This is the build to act as an 0.5 dps, 0.5 cc role. Poor poison application combined with the lack of 2.7+ weapons is a fucker. Your sustained white damage hits like a sissy.
Poor poison application, and little anti-removal.

Gpx
15-05-2007, 11:49 AM
whats best for a rogue whos rescently 70... has maces.. lol. and likes pvp aswell as wants to do some descent dps in instances aswell...
I have the Drakefist hammer available to me but i can also sell the mats and do anything else...
i Wont have great gear to start with and i hope to upgrade it as i go.

Any light you could shed would be wonderful

Theleb
15-05-2007, 12:11 PM
There is no best, there are only compromises when you want the best of both worlds :)

A build thats going to be viable for PvP is going to be lacking when it comes to DPS and of course the reverse applies. If you REALLY want to try a build that does both but excells at neither you can try 18/43, 20/41 or 26/35 QR. Now these are all combat builds but you can of course take "pvp" OR "pve" talents as you fancy.

note: these builds WILL suffer if you go rogue-hunting in PvP. You don't have MoD or Heightened Senses so getting the opener is going to be tricky...however...you have other benefits and you can't have everything so you pays your money and takes your choice.

If I absolutely had to choce one for me I'd probably go QR combat if you do more PvP. With healers its a very surviveable build, and does ok on damage meters (should do fine with your choice of Mace, get a Blackout Truncheon, Abacus and go go haste procs).

Just try a couple :)

Hammett
15-05-2007, 07:55 PM
As i said.

ZERGRUSHKEKEK AR build, any build with Adrenaline Rush included works! (hardly :P)

Đightrain
15-05-2007, 10:49 PM
Pve whore casual pvpers is all i got to say on this matter!

Fingers
25-05-2007, 02:38 PM
I feel your pain, GPX.

Having levelled blacksmithing and working for the 12 nethers to upgrade to Blazeguard (got to 7) I decided to try a combat dagger build for PvE, and decided I liked it so much that I didn't want to switch back to swords post-TBC (now that the upgrade to blazeguard is 8 nethers).

I also spent (gasp) 50 badges on the searing sunblade (really quick attack speed, great for combat potency procs), and then the very next week, Blade of the Unrequitted drops... so Searing SB now resides in the bank.

To be honest, if you like maces - stick with maces.

Lefric posted some really good info on those builds, you should be able to fine-tune your own build around one of those :)

I have a question of my own... How would Malchazeen+Blazeguard work?

I've been thinking about trying the following combinations:

Emerald Ripper+Blade of the Unrequitted (current)
Emerald Ripper+Searing SB
Emerald Ripper+Blazeguard
Emerald Ripper+Thunderfury (?)

Obviously Malchazeen will replace Emerald Ripper eventually, but what are people's preferences on weapon itemisation (Up to and including Karazhan)?

Hammett
25-05-2007, 09:30 PM
Well, obvious (being combat dagger specced) you are going to loose alot of crit % by going Blazeguard or Thunderfury....so i'd definately say Emerald + Searing. Very nice combat potency procs

Fingers
29-05-2007, 11:16 AM
I did a full raid with the ER+SSB combo and yes, the CP procs from having the fast offhand are quite amazing when you look at the total for a raid...

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=y62rpwsa6kbog&a=6

I guess I'll be sticking with that then (Thanks Hammett)

[shamless edit]
First Nightbane attempts btw (got him down on the last one)

Hammett
29-05-2007, 03:10 PM
Yw :)

Gumdrops
08-06-2007, 07:19 AM
I did a full raid with the ER+SSB combo and yes, the CP procs from having the fast offhand are quite amazing when you look at the total for a raid...

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=y62rpwsa6kbog&a=6

I guess I'll be sticking with that then (Thanks Hammett)

[shamless edit]
First Nightbane attempts btw (got him down on the last one)

Only 4 Blade Flurries and 2 Adrenaline Rushes? :eek:

Fingers
08-06-2007, 11:28 AM
I get shouted at on TS for pulling aggro...

Gumdrops
08-06-2007, 12:12 PM
Then you have shit tanks.

Alverion
08-06-2007, 12:13 PM
Get better tanks!

Fingers
08-06-2007, 12:27 PM
Lol :)

Let's not forget that it was a learning raid on Nightbane - nothing else...

This is a more 'normal' raid:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=h4ognqazcqhne&a=21

21 Blade Flurries
14 Adrenaline Rushes

And ignore the death by Tito... it must be a glitch on WWS (honest :roll:)

Geary
29-10-2007, 09:39 PM
I prefer combat dagger for pure PvE , but if you are going to PvE/PvP then go for mutilate ^.^