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Bunneh
01-05-2007, 10:22 AM
Straight to the point.

Is there any use for DPS warriors in level 70 end game content?

I'm currently specced Arms/Fury, hit 70 a week back and I'm slowly gathering gear together for hitting Karazhan, but I'm concerned I may not get into raids as DPS spec. Can my orc warrior be viable in end-game content as DPS?

Gwynin
01-05-2007, 10:58 AM
You're gonna be competing about spots with rogues who are less gear dependant than you, your big plus is that you can offtank tho. :)

Tsarina
01-05-2007, 11:09 AM
Is there any use for DPS warriors in level 70 end game content?
Yes.


You're gonna be competing about spots with rogues
No.

(Feral druids, maybe. Not rogues)

Taurusos
01-05-2007, 11:12 AM
Um...if you can dish out the dps, dont believe anyone saying you dont belong in heroics.

Gone through most heroics as fury and it aint no beef.

Tanked some of the bosses in heroics as fury too.

It is fien. Really.

/Tau

Tsarina
01-05-2007, 11:16 AM
Gone through most heroics as fury and it aint no beef.

That's not what your healers tell me, fatty. Apparently you were beef most of the time :p

Taurusos
01-05-2007, 11:26 AM
That's not what your healers tell me, fatty. Apparently you were beef most of the time :p

Oh its on! Yin! Hold the leashes!

First of all pigface: I was prot specced with Amaia running around in a very, as she put it "different spec" healing.

I pull. Interact with the mobs. Amaia STRAFES and gets aggro. :P

You can ask Tails, did SL Heroic as fury tank lolz and it was fine. :)

And oh wait til I get hands on those healers.

/Fatty

AnteroVipune
01-05-2007, 11:32 AM
If you cant take the heat, dont eat pancakes fatty. /nod

What?

Faylin
01-05-2007, 11:32 AM
I'm currently specced Arms/Fury, hit 70 a week back and I'm slowly gathering gear together for hitting Karazhan, but I'm concerned I may not get into raids as DPS spec. Can my orc warrior be viable in end-game content as DPS?

Just make sure you have a tanking kit.

A nice group set up for Karazhan can easily include one protection and one fury warrior. The protection warrior obviously being the MT and the Fury warrior being offtank on occasions where it's needed and being DPS on one-tank fights (which there are plenty of).

For Karazhan: Fury + prot warrior > 2x protection.

Tsarina
01-05-2007, 12:01 PM
You can ask Tails, did SL Heroic as fury tank lolz and it was fine. :)


/Fatty
Yin's too polite to say how you pull aggro like a madman when DPSing. It was Tails :p

Actually, she said you did fine, but that would be a boring story.

Just make sure you have a tanking kit.

Even if Beatus is an idiot (I said "even if", so I'm really being polite!), that's vital. If not, Gwynin would be right and you would be competing with rogues for spots. You don't want that.

Faylin
01-05-2007, 12:18 PM
I lolled.

Jarelan
01-05-2007, 12:24 PM
I've tried both, and yes I did find tanking easier with a bit of prot (20 points or so) but I didn't enjoy the game as much outside instances. So I'm back at MS spec now with only a few points in prot for Tactical Mastery.

Both are doable as said with gear and healers with a clue.

Lednar
01-05-2007, 12:30 PM
Just make sure you have a tanking kit.

A nice group set up for Karazhan can easily include one protection and one fury warrior. The protection warrior obviously being the MT and the Fury warrior being offtank on occasions where it's needed and being DPS on one-tank fights (which there are plenty of).

For Karazhan: Fury + prot warrior > 2x protection.

Or you can have a Feral Druid as MT/Off-tank(did that yesterday, whoever said that they wanted me to tank Maiden in Occams should know that I've done that now :D ) and let the Warrior go DPS :P

Taurusos
01-05-2007, 12:36 PM
Tell me, what has the fact that druids are a broken class, have anything to do with warriors in instances?

(I dislike druids strongly)

And if you ask why:

Feral tree. Thats why. Give me the means to be able to fucking leave a raid and pvp as prot and bring goods to the table with my prot spec. Give me the bloody means to be able to farm materials and golds on my main.

Thats what ferals can do. With their spec they can offer tanking (fit for most fights not all), proper dps in pve and pvp. AND they dont need to think about getting a damn alt for grinding gold/mats.

And are you gear dependant as feral? TBH, dont cry on my shoulders, warriors are too.

Had to get this off my chest.
I HATE what Blizzard has done to druids.

(not aimed at you lednar)

/Tau

Gwynin
01-05-2007, 01:10 PM
Alltho my dislike for druids isnt as strong as Tau's is, I still have to agree with him :)

Faylin
01-05-2007, 01:14 PM
Although I have a level 70 feral druid, I have yo agree with Tau ^^

Kinshara
01-05-2007, 01:24 PM
My druid's not 70(61, levelling as doomkin instead of feral), but I do agree... prot pallies suck outside of tanking too (and they aren't even as good as they could be there as well.)

Remains to be seen what the devastate change does in terms of farming capability, but pvp won't be improved too much by it. (The new devastate change, not the old one that got yanked... unless they've scrapped the new one as well)

Bunneh
01-05-2007, 02:07 PM
Thank you for putting my mind at rest. I do enjoy tanking to some degree, but also need to farm for gold etc. I remember doing the farming business on my old ally tank, sure I didn't go down easy, but it took me a while to kill stuff. With the Orc things just fall over (no it's not the smell).

Working on Kara attunement now, and gathering more +def/res gear.

Cheers all :)

Chonar
01-05-2007, 03:16 PM
Down with druids!

Faylin
01-05-2007, 03:18 PM
Working on Kara attunement now, and gathering more +def/resgear.

Cheers all :)

Ouch. not for tanking I hope :s

Taurusos
01-05-2007, 03:31 PM
Dont bother with resgear until Hydross plx.

/Taudross

Faylin
01-05-2007, 03:34 PM
I'm afraid he meant resilience ...or?

Kinshara
01-05-2007, 03:43 PM
Resistance, I hope.

Taurusos
01-05-2007, 04:06 PM
Collecting both for Kara would be blasphemy.

/Tau

Slashy
01-05-2007, 04:08 PM
My druid's not 70(61, levelling as doomkin instead of feral), but I do agree... prot pallies suck outside of tanking too (and they aren't even as good as they could be there as well.)

Remains to be seen what the devastate change does in terms of farming capability, but pvp won't be improved too much by it. (The new devastate change, not the old one that got yanked... unless they've scrapped the new one as well)

lol you typod OOMkin

Valoran
01-05-2007, 04:16 PM
Devastate isn't being changed in 2.1, the change was withdrawn when prot warriors found out they could reach over 1k dps.

As for the main point expressed in the OP, yes DPS warriors are both wanted and required in instances. Bringing only protection specced warriors is just silly and a total gimpage of dps when you could bring a DPS warrior to fill in tanking roles when required, rather than the other way round.

Kinshara
01-05-2007, 04:21 PM
Collecting both for Kara would be blasphemy.

/Tau

True, though arc resist would help with some TK heroics. Until the next patch, anyway.

Kinshara
01-05-2007, 04:26 PM
Devastate isn't being changed in 2.1, the change was withdrawn when prot warriors found out they could reach over 1k dps.

I'd heard the first version was withdrawn, but a fixed version put back in later -- with the offhand reduction applied properly (so the OH deals 25% damage instead of 50% with the first version.)

Has this been scrapped too?

Valoran
01-05-2007, 04:50 PM
Yes, it's been slated to be reintroduced later - just not with 2.1.

Add this to the long list of things that didn't work out with the first implimentation being added to the "to do" list.

Bunneh
01-05-2007, 05:52 PM
Thought Resiliance (the 'res' I was meaning) was needed to reduce crit chance from mobs hitting you. Sorry for the confusion, forgot all about resistance gear *slaps self*.

Mojo
01-05-2007, 06:06 PM
For Tanking, resilience is only really usefull for Hydross

Valoran
01-05-2007, 06:07 PM
You become crit immune through defense. Resiliance reduces both the chance to be crit and the damage taken from crits. Obviously if you're crit immune already then resiliance is totally useless vs. physical damage. It has some merit vs. casters (/wave hydross) but I really wouldn't worry about it currently.

Reaching the def cap (490 for warriors at level 70) is fairly easy to do through a mixture of blues/greens easily available from normal mode instances and quests. Craftables too. And that's with socketing only stamina gems.

Faylin
01-05-2007, 06:10 PM
Thought Resiliance (the 'res' I was meaning) was needed to reduce crit chance from mobs hitting you. Sorry for the confusion, forgot all about resistance gear *slaps self*.

That's what I was afraid of.

See, thing is, a 73 mob has a 5,something% chance to crit you. Having 490 defense reduces the chance to get critted by that same amount. This makes you crit immune.
But meanwhile, that defense also improves your block, dodge, parry and lowers your chance to get hit.
Resilience does two things: just like defense it lowers the chance to get crit. Second thing is it reduces damage from crits. Thing is, at 490 def you are already uncrittable. So "reduced damage from crit" does nothing for you.

To put it short, resilience is shit for tanking, at least once you've hit 490 defense, which isn't too hard. Resilience is for PvP, cause players have a lot more crit chance, so there both effects from resilience make sense.

@ Valoran. Damn I'm slow. But enlighten me how resilience helps vs Hydross? For all I know mob specials can't crit anyway?

tin
01-05-2007, 06:21 PM
For druids: The defense cap is at +156 defense rating (+65 defense). Which is a total of 415 defense at level 70. Together with 3/3 Survival of the Fittest, that makes you uncrittable in PvE (-5,60% crit chance ON you).

For warriors: (as far as I know... I'm not a warrior :P) The defense cap is at 590 defense total at level 70. Since they have no talents to reduce crit chance. Cant be arsed to figure out how much defense rating that is....


And please... correct me if I'm wrong on the warrior stuff... I'm just repeating what I've read / heard.


-Tin

Faylin
01-05-2007, 06:52 PM
I'm just repeating what I've read / heard.

You suck at quoting then, scroll up and you'll see us writing it's 490 def ;)

Kenny
01-05-2007, 06:54 PM
@ Valoran. Damn I'm slow. But enlighten me how resilience helps vs Hydross? For all I know mob specials can't crit anyway?

Try that fight, and then you'll know what he's talking about.
Godamn that fight has to be the most annoying bossfight I've ever wasted hundreds of gold on.

Tsarina
01-05-2007, 07:48 PM
@ Valoran. Damn I'm slow. But enlighten me how resilience helps vs Hydross? For all I know mob specials can't crit anyway?I guess some tanks find it easier to get the stam/nr required (using the nature phase strat) with resilience gear than def gear. As none of our tanks have any resilience gear, this is just a guess on my part. It's definitely not something most tanks are going for, judging by other forums.

Valoran
01-05-2007, 08:11 PM
@ Valoran. Damn I'm slow. But enlighten me how resilience helps vs Hydross? For all I know mob specials can't crit anyway?
Hydross melees for elemental damage (nature or frost, depending on his phase). The whole thing is kinda borked but the mechanics take on the characteristics of both melee and spell damage, while leaivng some parts behind.

Shield block doesn't work to avoid crushings, since it's a "magic" effect, so you can be crushed, which is effectively a crit. Resiliance helps migitigate this damage and reduce the numbers as far away from the 'loloneshot' zone as possible, especially if you're using the patchwerk on crack method of holding hydross at 250% damage.

Atleast, that's my understanding. Not totally sure if I'm honest.

Thrane
01-05-2007, 08:47 PM
Shield block doesn't work to avoid crushings, since it's a "magic" effect, so you can be crushed, which is effectively a crit.

I doubt resillience counters crushing. As a crushing hit is 150% damage and a crit is 200% so hardly the same. And Hydross isn't capable of crushing anymore since a hotfix a few weeks ago.

Mojo
01-05-2007, 09:06 PM
Because it takes 40 resilience for -1% chance to get crit, while it costs +-60 defense.
And as parry, dodge and block chance aren't really of much use there, resilience is more effective to reach crit immunity. Personally i've been using the Timelapse Shard from exalted CoT, and even Milennium Blade from BM, as thats how i get the best optimise crit immunity / hp and NR. You have plenty of rage doing it the 250% way ( nearly like Vael ;p), so loosing abit of dps on the sword doesn't matters too much.

Valoran
01-05-2007, 09:13 PM
Aye, found a great thread on EJ about exactly that.

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=10387&highlight=hydross

Seems I was right about 5 weeks ago >_>.

tin
02-05-2007, 01:12 AM
You suck at quoting then, scroll up and you'll see us writing it's 490 def ;)

*cry* I suck at typing... and spotting typo's... oh well, that'll teach me to speak of warrior mechanics

Bunneh
02-05-2007, 08:59 AM
Thanks again guys for the info (/hug Beatus), it has proved enlightening.

Got a nice new shield from the Netherwing questline which should serve me well for a while, my defense is slowly creeping up too. Need to get into Shadow Labs to get the first fragment, so I badger guild mates to go with me :)

Stim
04-05-2007, 11:06 AM
I had to respec to get in heroic... As a tank ofc. Dps is *lael- go 25 man* in my experience.

Gwynin
04-05-2007, 12:15 PM
I had to respec to get in heroic... As a tank ofc. Dps is *lael- go 25 man* in my experience.

Thats pretty much every dps warriors experience, atleast the ones Ive spoken to

Chopper
04-05-2007, 12:19 PM
I don't mind it tbh.

The alternative is going as a tank with my arms/fury spec. Sure it's doable, but I'd feel like I was being carried. With an arms/prot or full prot spec, I feel like I bring more to the group.

Stim
04-05-2007, 12:29 PM
I feel like I bring more to the group.
True dat.
Now I can't blame myself for some lacking so I blame warlocks :D

Gwynin
04-05-2007, 07:09 PM
Its just like I mind that some ppl prefer taking a prot warrior, but what does bug me is the hordes of shitty rogues that get into heroics just cos of their stun :)

I prefer being prot spec when I suposed to tank, do a job 100% and all that jizzle ;)

xexa
05-05-2007, 03:45 PM
I had to respec to get in heroic... As a tank ofc. Dps is *lael- go 25 man* in my experience.

BM heroik is good for Fury Warrior and ShadowPriest in fact i would say its a bit needed!

But the others heroik may require a class that can both dps and cc, where we (dps warriors) lack!

But there is always a limit where the party gear surpasses the cc needed, and i think we might get a spot!

Taurusos
05-05-2007, 04:58 PM
Aye, for sure what Xexa said.

The better your party is, the more flexible team.

Did BM with 3 warriors yesterday pewpew :P

Will try it with same setup in heroic too.

/Tau

Mojo
06-05-2007, 02:33 PM
Way way harder then normal, and the hardest heroic there is, i'd say either a pala for BoS or a shadowpriest for the mana regen is nearly required. Did it with two mages and a warlock as dps and a pala healing, never really worked with a rogue as dps, but i suppose a warrior as dps might work a little better - would advise against it the first time though.

xexa
06-05-2007, 03:48 PM
I have done BM heroik yesterday, with no problem. It was fast and simple, and i dont think its the hardest heroik in game since we did it with no troubles in our first attempt. And its for shoore the fastest heroik in-game. Maybe people think its harder because they use the loads of cc setup they use for the others heroiks.

Setup was: Prot Warrior (Zvijer), Holy Paladin (Antonio), Shadowpriest (Bentovxi), Warlock (Sharapova) and Fury warrior (me)!

Its only fair, that dungeons do require diferent setups and aproachs so thar everyone has a chance to shine ;)

Altough i must say that some of us have been farming some trinckets we needed all week in normal mode, so we had a good practice.

Taurusos
06-05-2007, 05:07 PM
Xexa....got your trinket now? :P

/Tau

Gwynin
06-05-2007, 08:50 PM
After the 13 hour grind to exalted I did in BM, we actually tried one heroic run for fun. Ended up with getting the paladin one shotted by a pyroblast :D

xexa
07-05-2007, 03:03 AM
Xexa....got your trinket now? :P

/Tau
yup! the heroik run was quite rewarding for me! :)

Slater
09-05-2007, 06:55 PM
Why would you take a dps warrior over a rogue?

Exting
09-05-2007, 07:11 PM
Why would you take a dps warrior over a rogue?

Requires less heals.. erm and has the ability to tank well if the MT goes down.

other than that i dont see the point either, i guess the raid build wasnt quite secure enough on tanking so they backed it up.

Stim
10-05-2007, 06:14 AM
Well, proper dps warr goes down faster than your *POOF* rogue in fact...

Bunneh
10-05-2007, 02:14 PM
Well I respecced Protection anyway for me guild, at the end of the day I made the guy for the guild and if they need protection I'll be protection - btw nothing can hit me, it's great :) now I just need to build up my +def and get some tanking practice, it'll be like old times, dying because the priest was watching porn :P

Bunneh
12-05-2007, 08:13 AM
Bleh I felt so miserable after going protection and playing with it I ended up going back Arms/Fury....and put points into Imp. Slam, which I must say isn't all that bad. I can use it when my MS/WW is on cooldown and the crits aren't that bad, although with my current gear being merchant bank it could be alot better.

Iyachtu
12-05-2007, 09:00 AM
Personally cant really stand prot either.

Gwynin
13-05-2007, 06:27 PM
Guess it depends on where I am in the game if I like prot or not, if its a steady progress with seeing new bosses then its all ok.

As it is currently I totally hate it, cant use my char for anything fun (in my view) :(


so am lvl'ing a rogue atm, atleast that one cant tank

Utena
14-05-2007, 10:53 PM
Using an old MS hybrid build at the moment, can tank heroics, am Ot'ing Kara & can hold my own in pvp with some handy stuns & health boosts for Arena matches.

Although not truly great at any one thing, good enough for no one to get offended :D

Mojo
15-05-2007, 11:15 AM
Who says prot warriors can't dps?! :P

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3007/sscritsh2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Gwynin
15-05-2007, 02:02 PM
And a shield slam crit (which is noticeable high) happens like what ? once every 100 slams ? :)


Oh and I did actually beat Hyo (yes yea low e-peen value I know :P ) twice yesterday in IF as prot spec, arms warrior nubs :P

Faylin
15-05-2007, 02:13 PM
I'd guess it crits as much as your melee crit %? So wearing DPS gear, about 20%? Or?

Kinshara
15-05-2007, 02:38 PM
I'd guess it crits as much as your melee crit %? So wearing DPS gear, about 20%? Or?

Yeah, but then you probably won't have much +block value to get the damage up that high.

Chonar
15-05-2007, 03:40 PM
Just give the protection tree a 1-point talent somewhere around the 30-points range that translates +def into +crit/AP.

Gwynin
15-05-2007, 04:47 PM
pff Chonar, you know we dont share the same love as blizz has towards druids

Stim
16-05-2007, 08:09 AM
Beating arms warrior with prot is quite easy. 2h crit hit shield block lower than 1h prot crits on arms warrior. Not really an achievement. Warriors seem to be balanced only around their own class lol. arms-prot-fury - fair matchup.

Taurusos
16-05-2007, 08:13 AM
Trinket Mojo?

;)

/Tau

Mojo
16-05-2007, 02:41 PM
Sapphiron trinket and autoblocker ( they stack), block gear (though not optimal) and berseker buff :)
Think i can get 100 or so more block from some Kara/heroic gear, so a 4k crit is probably possible.