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Faylin
24-04-2007, 10:01 AM
After having a break from WoW I was concidering picking up raiding again. I had contact with a GM of a respected guild here on the server. After checking their roster I saw they were kinda short on Shadowpriests (and they were undergeared too), so I thought I'd poke him to ask if it would make sense for me to apply.

To my shock I got a reply that they "only use one shadowpriest in a raid for warlock damage".

Is that a common view that guilds still have on shadowpriests? Or do others realize that
- 200 mana/5 for the whole group
- +5% spelldamage for the whole raid (admitted, only need one for that)
- passive healing to the group
- combined with a position high in the DPS charts

... is something you might want to have more then 1 of? Or at least I am used to compete with the best, when it comes to DPS.

So how many SPriests do others bring to 25 mans? Do you always try to bring one to 10 mans? How do others rate their usefullness? How do other SPriests score on the DPS charts (I do realize I'm probably better geared then most so that might be a factor).

captpicard
24-04-2007, 10:27 AM
We used to have two in most 25 man raids, they are usefull wether they are a pré instead of a plus i dunno.

Flawless
24-04-2007, 12:45 PM
My guild took 1, but never had the opportunity to take 2 or we would of tried it for sure.

Robinvi
24-04-2007, 12:54 PM
2 shadowpriests can easy fit into a raid.

Elexin
24-04-2007, 01:02 PM
I have a great fondness for shadowpriests because of the mana battery effect.
I've seen them put to good use in healer or caster groups to that effect of simply buffering the mana regen of those classes, and can easily see the use of more than one.

As far as I know, ours were high on dps too, meaning there was no downside to having them (but I can't say I ever paid attention to damage done, its not a focus of mine).

I've done ten mans both with and without them, and I believe its easier with one, even if I'm not lucky enough to be grouped with them. When raiding 10mans I'd say 2 is overkill. Better off splitting or some such.
I can see 2 shadowpriests easily in a 25, no question about it. Can't honestly picture 3+ being used though. The good effects probably start to diminish with more.

Faylin
24-04-2007, 01:21 PM
Here is an interesting feat some SSC guild uses: a web version of their damage meters:
http://awesome-dread.ath.cx/raidinfo/wws-history/
Gives you a nice idea of SPriest dps.

As fror the number, my personal view would be that with up to 20 mana users in a 25 man, up till 4 Shadowpriests would make sense. (1 for each group)

Any big downside to that I seem to have missed?

captpicard
24-04-2007, 01:25 PM
I'd say that would screw up overall class balance orso

Maesto
24-04-2007, 01:29 PM
We take two shadowpriests for 25-man raiding.

If we had three (with good enough equipment) we could and would take three on some encounters. There are encounters though, where we get squeezed a bit due to lack of other abilities (thinking Magtheridon here)

We always had a spriest in each of our Kara groups.

DPS-wise our other shadowpriest normally makes top 5 and I switch between #1 and #2.

This will change ofc. with 2.10 and also as people gear up. It's pretty retarded that I have no upgrades in sight until the next expansion (exxagerating a bit since a lot of the non-set items aren't public, but the tier-sets does nothing for my DPS).

Oh and is there any chance of a little drama here ?

Which guild was it ;D

Faylin
24-04-2007, 01:29 PM
(@CaptPicard who ninja edited his post :P)

Yes, obviously if CC is involved you would favour locks/mages. I have no idea tbh how much need there is for CC in SSC and beyond, but yes, fair point.

Valoran
24-04-2007, 01:35 PM
Spriests are very nice additions to a 25 man raid, offering a lot of support along with a nice steady damage output.

They can have aggro issues on certain fights (fith like getting ganked by murlocs on morogrim, honest) but in general don't have things too bad.

I think four might be a little over the top, but tbh it makes very little difference aslong as the rest of the raid is balanced to suit. Two is ideal imo.

Shadewalk
24-04-2007, 01:36 PM
got a feeling that the view from somewhere was that 2 shadow priests + 4 locks was the idea combination for cross buffing each other, maximising dps and regen etc without hitting debuff limit problems and having all the other things a raid needs.
While 4 shadowpriests sounds good in theory the fact is locks don't need the battery, so with that combo you are already down to just needing ~3 and also mass stacking of locks and priests I think you could actually hit the debuff limit,

each priest-
1 VE
1 VT
1 SW:P
1 Mindflay slot
+ 1 that +5% spell damage

per lock
is it 4 dots each? (think its something like 4 anyway, though not sure all would actually be used if thats ment to include immolation)
+life drain slot?

between 2 priest + 4 locks that is ~28 debuff slots before the spaming of life drain, you throw in the essensial boss debuffs from the other 19 people in a 25 man raid and you must have filled them all, which I can only assume was the reason you don't just stack on shadow priests + locks only for dps slots.

while I know you are asking about priests the fact is for a 25 man raid locks + shadowpriests really have massive synergy benefits which is why its hard to think about one without thinking about the other.

Faylin
24-04-2007, 01:45 PM
I ofcourse agree with the synergy. If you are heavy on melee damage you would probably prioritize an enhancement shammy above a shadowpriest.

But while the lock/shadowpriest synergy is very obvious, also other classes can benefit a lot from it: from all I know mana issues hold back hunters a lot when it comes to doing proper dps.
And if you look at one of those charts I linked: the top shadowpriest regenerated 17k mana to everyone in his group.... only thing is... I'm usually the one drinking pots, while the rest of my group goes "thanks for the VT< didn't need a single pot":P

As for debuff slots... yes you use a lot of em, you didn;t even mention shadow weaving in that list. While we're at it, what IS the debuff limit these days?

Valoran
24-04-2007, 01:54 PM
40, and it's still not enough when you have some classes taking up two or three each.

Faylin
24-04-2007, 01:59 PM
2 or 3? :P

One affliction lock and a shadowpriest:
Vampric Touch , Vampiric Embrace, Shadow Weaving, Mind Flay, SW:Pain, Misery, Corruption, some curse, Improved shadowbolt, Shadow Embrace, Siphon Life, Unstable Affliction.

That's 12 for 2.... obviously a lot of em will overlap if you get more of the same class, but yeh, 40 is actually low o.O

pegastud
24-04-2007, 02:07 PM
Here is an interesting feat some SSC guild uses: a web version of their damage meters:
http://awesome-dread.ath.cx/raidinfo/wws-history/
Gives you a nice idea of SPriest dps.

As fror the number, my personal view would be that with up to 20 mana users in a 25 man, up till 4 Shadowpriests would make sense. (1 for each group)

Any big downside to that I seem to have missed?

As I may believe those charts, http://awesome-dread.ath.cx/raidinfo/wws-20070420-2130/index.html, that shadowpriest is 3rd on DPS and on top of that does like 50% healing compared to the healers? Why not go for a full shadowpriest raid?

Faylin
24-04-2007, 02:11 PM
.. and restored 17k mana to each party member :D

Elexin
24-04-2007, 03:06 PM
As I may believe those charts, http://awesome-dread.ath.cx/raidinfo/wws-20070420-2130/index.html, that shadowpriest is 3rd on DPS and on top of that does like 50% healing compared to the healers? Why not go for a full shadowpriest raid?

Because most of that healing was probably overheal ;)
Also, Shadowpriests can't tank, and if you stuck a warrior in there, four shadowpriests couldn't keep a warrior up if they were all in shadowform, even nuking all out.
And if they did, the warrior probably couldn't keep aggo ;)

Valoran
24-04-2007, 03:16 PM
VE healing generally goes to overheal, there's no way to direct it. Generally the only use it has is topping off warlocks lifetapping.

When people need healed, they need a lot of healing in a short period of time - waiting for VE to top them off often isn't an option.

Faylin
24-04-2007, 03:17 PM
Because most of that healing was probably overheal ;))
Actually, if you read closely, no. The effective healing was about 50% of that of the average healer in that raid. If you would include overhealing, he would have done twice the healing of the number one healer. (He did 440k healing, 83% of which was overhealing. Still left him with 83k effective healing)

Still, VE is not the number one reason to bring a SPriest imo. I mostly agree with Valoran. But, in a situation where ranged DPS is taking some AoE damage and need to be topped off from time to time, it's still valuable.

Valoran
24-04-2007, 03:19 PM
Actually, if you read closely, no. The effective healing was about 50% of that of the average healer in that raid. If you would include overhealing, he would have done twice the healing of the number one healer.

Still, VE is not the number one reason to bring a SPriest imo.
83% was overheal. (http://awesome-dread.ath.cx/raidinfo/wws-20070420-2130/zurexo.html)

The total healing done by VE was around half of heal specced priest, 83% of which over healed.

Faylin
24-04-2007, 03:21 PM
Yeh, 83% of 440k, like I said in my ninja edit.. the average 'pure'healer was at about 160k.

BigBadAlex
24-04-2007, 03:45 PM
Your forgetting the best thing about shadowpriests...teamed up with palas in a heal group the paladins will never run short of mana (we get far more mana back than priests)!
I found mana control rather difficult in Khara the other night without a shadowpriest for a change...makes a huge difference! :D

Faylin
24-04-2007, 03:49 PM
Spritual Attunement will be fixed in 2.10 though so that you don't get mana from overheals anymore. So, I didn't quite forget it, but didn't want to mention it cause it will be fixed soon anyway ;)

Psonica
25-04-2007, 08:25 AM
2 or 3? :P

One affliction lock and a shadowpriest:
Vampric Touch , Vampiric Embrace, Shadow Weaving, Mind Flay, SW:Pain, Misery, Corruption, some curse, Improved shadowbolt, Shadow Embrace, Siphon Life, Unstable Affliction.

That's 12 for 2.... obviously a lot of em will overlap if you get more of the same class, but yeh, 40 is actually low o.O
You forgot Immolate ... and adding another warlock will not make things stack/overlap that much.

captpicard
25-04-2007, 09:09 AM
Fire

Stim
25-04-2007, 09:23 AM
/frown
I see farming SP duel him and have my ass handed right over... Nerf to hell!

Arthran
25-04-2007, 09:58 AM
WE've only got 1 shadowpriest in guild, a second would be welcomed as the dps from shadowpriests easily matches most other casters, and the healing comming from them saves main healers alot of hastle.

Shadowpriests = win. Its plainly simple

Danzig
25-04-2007, 01:21 PM
Probably wont add anything to this thread, but my opinion is that Sps are more or less accepted in all the big guilds nowadays. On horde side the paladins have made some difference since they want a Sp in their raids. (Will be nerfed but still it has made a difference so far )

We do damage, give healing/mana to the raid. And we can also shield/dispell in shadowform. So atm a shadow priest is of more use to raid then a holy one.

/dan

Kabhanda
26-04-2007, 03:34 PM
There is no reason to have more than 3 shadowpriests as MT group and Melee dps have no room for one, debuff limits also basically force you to stop there, 2 is enough in most cases though. Which still makes them pretty much the 'most wanted' 'offspec' healer class.

That said, a shadowpriest who tops dms is in a bad guild, they hit threat limit long before mages / locks (shatter/invis + no comedy heal threat gain). In the same way that rouges and furry warriors should be above an enhancement shaman (and with same gear/buff level and same ability they will be) mages/locks will be above their group battery.

Shadowpriests are there to do respectable damage while providing debuffs that improve magical damage and giving mana wee to their party, not to top dms.

Trupiaczacha
27-04-2007, 03:22 PM
There is no reason to have more than 3 shadowpriests as MT group and Melee dps have no room for one, debuff limits also basically force you to stop there, 2 is enough in most cases though. Which still makes them pretty much the 'most wanted' 'offspec' healer class.

That said, a shadowpriest who tops dms is in a bad guild, they hit threat limit long before mages / locks (shatter/invis + no comedy heal threat gain). In the same way that rouges and furry warriors should be above an enhancement shaman (and with same gear/buff level and same ability they will be) mages/locks will be above their group battery.

Shadowpriests are there to do respectable damage while providing debuffs that improve magical damage and giving mana wee to their party, not to top dms.

QFT

wish all will understend end game... but gess its rare thing.

Fithvael
27-04-2007, 03:40 PM
Perhaps im just awesome, especially at Kazzak.

Danzig
27-04-2007, 03:42 PM
I would say if the warlocks in a raid cant beat the SPs damage with a 15% buff to shadowdamage and a 5% increased spelldamage they should reroll. As Kab says, Sps role are to do respecteble damage and provide buffs/shields/dispells and be manabatteries. Not to top the damage charts.

Kabhanda
27-04-2007, 03:51 PM
Perhaps im just awesome, especially at Kazzak.


Where you are awesome is outside of WoW dear :)

Maesto
27-04-2007, 06:27 PM
I would say if the warlocks in a raid cant beat the SPs damage with a 15% buff to shadowdamage and a 5% increased spelldamage they should reroll. As Kab says, Sps role are to do respecteble damage and provide buffs/shields/dispells and be manabatteries. Not to top the damage charts.

I think you should post that on DnT's forum. I'm sure they would agree with you ;D

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8284/dmgleotherastheblindao4.jpg

Mage
Spriest
Lock
Lock

Valoran
27-04-2007, 06:29 PM
A single damage meter (which may or may not be synced) doesn't really prove anything. There are fights where each of the classes you have listed should/shouldn't be anywhere near the top.

Edit: it's posted by the person on the top, that often means syncing was an issue.

Also, for leo - damage done by your 'pet' during the fight is attributed to you. So it may be that the person at the top of the meters performed very badly when killing their insidious whisper pet thingy.

Maesto
27-04-2007, 06:39 PM
I don't understand your post at all.

I'm pretty sure these guys know their shit and how to get accurate meters.

There are no advantage for spriest over a lock at Leo, which is why it's a reply to the specific quote.

Valoran
27-04-2007, 07:22 PM
I don't understand your post at all.

I'm pretty sure these guys know their shit and how to get accurate meters.

There are no advantage for spriest over a lock at Leo, which is why it's a reply to the specific quote.
Yet the meter may or may not be in any way 'official'. For all you know, the meter itself (which is from damagemeters) might not be synced at all if say, the majority of the raid uses swstats - or parsed their combat logs post fight with WWS. For the meter to be 'accurate' the following assumptions need to be made clear.

1) That combat log range was set to 200.
2) Multiple people were syncing the meter, and they all had relatively low latency and high fps (to avoid timestamping issues double reporting one set of data).
3) The damage recorded was only that done to the boss in question. In this case ignoring damage done by a players 'pet' to the player during the Insidious Whisper phase.

Just because it's D'nT doesn't mean it's 100% correct or indeed in context at all. D'nT actually have a history of making sweeping claims with very little to back them up other than a few pieces of conjecture based around one piece of situational 'evidence'.

Your original (harhar) premise of saying 'hey, shadow priests are awesome, look at this damage meters shot from d'nt' doesn't do anything to convince me of your point.

Maesto
27-04-2007, 07:48 PM
Nowhere did I write shadowpriest were awesome (but they are if played correctly ;D).

I just posted a damagemeter, from one of the most renowned PvE guilds in WoW, that contradicts the post by Danzig.

That is ofc. if you accept the conjecture, that DnT's locks actually know how to play.

EDIT:

Since you seem very adamant about saying that spriests can't outdps pure DPS-classes, I'm curious what you base it on btw. ?

Kenny
27-04-2007, 08:01 PM
Shadow Priests are amazing, they just help so much, and do pretty sick dps as well.

Danzig
28-04-2007, 08:26 AM
What I base it on?

The fact that a warlock can dish out more damage without getting owned by the boss/mob. They don't have to worry about getting aggro from VE-healing and should be able to push their dps much more then a shadowpriest could without getting attention. They can also wipe alot of aggro out with using soulshatter. They also don't have any obligations doing shields/dispells that will make you loose dps.

But of course a shadowpriest can get higher on the lists, but then you have to skip VE, stop assisting the raid with shields and dispells and just focus on pure dps. But then again, why should we be there if we wont use our coreabilities?

EDIT:

There are fight where warlocks are on banishing duty and mages are on sheepduty for example. Fights like that of course will lower their dps. But Im talking about fights where everyone have the same possibilities to do damage.

Maesto
28-04-2007, 08:54 AM
Did you read my post ?

The meter was from a fight, where there are no extra things the locks has to do.

And you mention shields and dispell as our "core" abilities. They are not.

Generating 200 MP5 to your group is the spriests core ability and we can do that while doing the exact same DPS as the locks.

You also write some stuff about threat that I don't get. I don't mean this as an insult, but I never hold back due to threat (well, the first 10 s perhaps). Maybe your tanks just don't generate enough TPS.

Danzig
28-04-2007, 10:13 AM
Yepp, read your post. An image of a guildchat window with a damagemeter with no point at all, the picture doesnt say shit tbh. Read others posts about that picture.

And for your tankquestion. I believe OTD has one of the best MTs avalible on hordeside. Extremly well geared and know his class better then most other tanks so I dont think that is the issue.

For your threat I just have to congratulate you. Imo the biggest issue a shadowpriest with descent spelldamage have, is the aggromanagement. A lock/mage does X amount of damage on a target and do Y amount of threat. A shadowpriest do X amount of damage and produce Y +healing threat.

If you can save a dpsers life at gruul with placing out a shield while no healers are in range I say that benefit the raid more then you dps at that time. But thats me. Same goes for dispelling on certain encounters.

I would love see you trying out dps Uftahk or Joortje tbh. I will make some screenshots on our next Gruul kill so you can compare how much damage they do to your own.

Maesto
28-04-2007, 10:48 AM
I don't know how you can say the picture means shit. It contradicts what you wrote.

It's a DPS meter from one of the best PvE guilds in the world (if you missed it it's from Death and Taxes on Leo). Their locks didn't out-dps the shadowpriest, which apparently, in your own words, mean they need to reroll ;D

As for throwing a shield at Gruul ofc. you can do that during slam. Doing it during the DPS periods is so so. I trust our healers to do their job while I do mine.

We don't take spriests instead of healers. We take them in "dps spots" and don't expect them to spend half the time keeping others safe. We got other people for that.

As for the tank thing. Have you ever pulled aggro going full out ? You say we have to hold back, but I'm interested to know if you've actually experienced it.

Danzig
28-04-2007, 11:27 AM
Of course you have a dps spot. But that doesnt mean you are supposed to be no 1 damagemaker.

About the dpsmeter, look at other posts in this thread, I see no reason to retype it. If the meter isnt synced it means nothing right? I usually top my meter before the sync so that would explain alot.

Yes, I have pulled aggro. And if I dont hold back I will pass MT in KTM. Last gruul ( our 1st kill ) I was over MT at several occasions and had to hold back for some time to get back under. I can pass him and top it but its hard to accumulate where the aggrogain for me is so I wont push it to far.

Maesto
28-04-2007, 11:40 AM
hmmm, I expect every player in a DPS spot to do their outmost best to be #1 unless they have a specific job on an encounter or are limited by game mechanics. Spriests are not limited and saying your not supposed to go for #1 is just an excuse to slack ;D

And about the damagemeters, why shouldn't it be synched ?

Why would they release a unsynched damagemeter ?

For the record the #1 spot and poster is a mage, which is irrelevant to our discussion of lock vs spriest.

No offence but I simply can't see how you can pass your MT on Gruul. I checked your armory profile and your gear is pretty weak tbh.

I have over 300 more +shadow damage than you. Maybe that's the reason your locks beats you ;D

Danzig
28-04-2007, 12:11 PM
I usually flask at raids, so fully buffed Im around 1.1 k +shadowdamage. But since I manage to top aggro with that gear I have to preform extremly well eh? :P

Faylin
28-04-2007, 12:20 PM
I've seen more than one damage meter from 25 man raid encounters where locks, shadowpriests and mages are very close to eachother on the DPS charts. Calling a guild "shit" if the SPriest outdpsses a lock really doesn't seem appropriate.

I agree that if you look at classroles (SPriest being a bit more utility and a lock/mage a bit more pure DPS) I agree locks/mages should be higher, but currently it just doesn;t always seem to be the case.

I don't have 25 man experience, but if I look at single target fights, I'm usually at least on par with locks and mages with the same level of gear. Actually, the funny screenie in my sig is from a Mech run. Ask Psonica about how we usually end up in the charts. In about 3-4 runs, in ALL cases we were within 1% from eachother.

Kabhanda
28-04-2007, 12:30 PM
Get back to the simple fact, with the same level of gear, and same level of ability mages/locks out damage spriests. With the same level of gear, and same level of skill rouges out damage enhance shaman, I can find a shit load of dms where I am ahead of all rouges present, it mostly means the fight is particularly friendly to me (anything I can heroism twice on is practically a gimme, as I gain alot more than the rouges).

And maesto, how is your experience on leo? Do you know what strat D&T were using? There are quite a few good reasons for people to not be able to do max dps on that fight, its probably one of the worst to try and compare damage on.

Maesto
28-04-2007, 01:12 PM
And maesto, how is your experience on leo? Do you know what strat D&T were using? There are quite a few good reasons for people to not be able to do max dps on that fight, its probably one of the worst to try and compare damage on.

I don't see the relevance, since I don't see the difference between the spriest and the locks (in the meters) role in that particular fight. Random stuff can ofc. influence it, but they both have the exact same difficulties to overcome (none of the locks are tanking demonform if that's what you are implying).

And for the record I'm well aware of the different math models that predicts estimated DPS and such and that locks and mages in theory always should surpass spriests given a certain level of gear.

But one thing is mathmodels another is doing the actual fights.

Kabhanda
28-04-2007, 04:45 PM
Leo is like sartura on speed, whether or not he is trying to whirlwind you in the face affects dps quite considerably. As does what approach you use for inner demons.

Lurker and Karathress are both fairly solid fights for comparing dps (mages lose out on lurker if you use run around) but Leo is just far too random to account damage meter position to anything other than 'well he never tried to rape that guy right in the arse'.

So I will now revise to 'with the same level of gear and skill, on a fight where there aren't issues which affect dps which are out of the player's control, a shadowpriest will be outdamaged by mages and warlocks', happy? :P

Faylin
28-04-2007, 07:07 PM
I am. But I was before :P

Since I don't think a shadowpriest needs to be the number one on the charts to justify it's raid spot. If he's doing at least 80 ish % of a mage or locks damage I guess that's good enough too.

Arjen
05-05-2007, 01:08 AM
I am. But I was before :P

Since I don't think a shadowpriest needs to be the number one on the charts to justify it's raid spot. If he's doing at least 80 ish % of a mage or locks damage I guess that's good enough too.

Figures shouldn't come into it. Shadow priests proved their worth in terms of raid dps a loooong time ago. But yeah, it's a shame they still have to. But on the flip side, it's because Holy priests are such amazing healers.

Faylin
25-06-2007, 02:29 PM
Check who's number one in DPS in this little video btw ^_^
http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi?action=bosslink_html&bosslinkid=1192&sid=gnmd97tOWf

Valoran
25-06-2007, 02:35 PM
Mages are frost specced, the best geared warlock is tanking and melee dps has been told to spread out (and can't dps one of the tears, which is about 1/7th of the total damage done for the duration of the fight).

=/

Faylin
25-06-2007, 02:48 PM
Oh the joy of having totally no utility, except the utility that come from your damage ;)

mashadar
13-07-2007, 08:21 AM
Hey guys i am new to the forum so the thread might be out of date .


Seen a few post dmg meters and claim Spreist should be on top and some say thats not there role there role is to regain mana to group.
About the shadow preist wynrider he is prolly one of the best geared Spreist while he raid but he stopped raid a while ago so no doubt he was high on dmg meters.

Resons why to bring a Spreist instead of other dps class is not becourse they have so good dps becourse they should not be on par with any other dps class , its becourse their mana and HP regain for their group .
Still we can dish out some decent dmg no doubt about that .
But we also have some limitation that most class dont have wich offen cause us to drop on dmg meters (lock=soulshatter, rouge=feint, hunters=FD and so on) .
But some fighs are better for Spreist like gruul maulgar lurker and so on becourse either the tanks have so much time to build threat or have no agro list then we can go pretty much full out .


To make it short any dps class with same lvl gear as a shadow preist should be above them if they aint slacking not by much but by some .
1-3 should fit in to a 25 man raid easy depending how mana intensive your raid is .
To not bring Spreist to your raid is to gimp your self to much .
Classes i would love to have in raid is locks and in my own group shamans and BM hunters . Then the Spreist really shines with Imp shadow bolt you can dish out some insane dmg while buff 5% to every caster and 10% more for any affliction lock .

Faylin
13-07-2007, 09:24 AM
I'm top 5 on every boss fight except Morogrim.

spikeyy
13-07-2007, 12:49 PM
I'm top 5 on every boss fight except Morogrim.

I'm afraid that just means the rest of your dps are slacking. Since the nerfs top placement just isn't possible anymore on most fights.

Suricarta
15-07-2007, 04:33 PM
I've never understood this denial people have that shadowpriests could ever be getting good damge on the DPS charts. even now, after TBC with all the new spells and abilities shadowpriests can offer there are still people stuck in thier ways that they can't fathom a shadowpriest ever beating a mage or warlock in damage.

I suppose that in some ways this can be the result of many a shadowpriest really having to fight for thier raid spots, thus they put that much more effort into getting the most DPS they can? A mage and lock may slack slightly knowing they won't get put on a pedestal, whereas the shadowpriests damage will get scrutinised more, thus you find that when a shadowpriest does get a raidspot they put that much more effort in? I definatly think alot of people forget about the utility the spec offers though in regards to the mana regen and damage buffs (shadow weaving and misery), any raid leader that can't see the obvious benefits atleast 1 shadowpriest in a raid can offer, especially after TBC is not a good raid leader and is most likely just following the old cookie cutter raid guids pasted all over the internet.

Either way, I'm happily gearing my new priest up for some shadow goodness and look forward to getting raiding within the next month, so locks and mages beware! :-P

Valoran
15-07-2007, 05:14 PM
They can and have beaten mages and warlocks in damage done. Just don't run around stating it's the status quo.

The other crap you put in about effort just doesn't hold true for raid leaders with half a brain.

spikeyy
15-07-2007, 05:21 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Shadow priests deserve a raid spot are idiots. If you are in a guild like that leave. Simple as that.

(but if they beat warlocks in damage these days, then sack the locks ;P)

Alverion
15-07-2007, 09:36 PM
It's mostly since the shadowpriest (and small additional warlock) nerf that has caused shadow priests on average (i.e. not all the time, but typically) to not be able to quite match their counterparts (warlocks and mages).

You definitely don't have to worry about shadowpriests not getting raid spots, their synergy with the rest of the raid is so great that not bringing 1 at all is a massive detriment to your raid. Almost akin to not raiding with paladins.

Assistance
15-07-2007, 10:35 PM
Shadowpriests still frowned upon?
Yes

Next please!

Faylin
15-07-2007, 11:45 PM
Who are you?

Assistance
15-07-2007, 11:48 PM
Who are you?

I should think that would be obvious, Assistance <Touch of Winter> lvl41 paladin.

Faylin
15-07-2007, 11:53 PM
Authority on shadow priest raiding?

Assistance
15-07-2007, 11:59 PM
Authority on shadow priest raiding?

Yes!

Next please!

Faylin
16-07-2007, 12:12 AM
I see we found ourselves a new Orde.

Flawless
16-07-2007, 12:46 AM
I see we found ourselves a new Orde.

probably is him, acts like him too much

Alverion
16-07-2007, 12:47 AM
Touch of Winter next Auto? ))))

Cause with this guy, they're going far ; )

Maesto
16-07-2007, 03:27 PM
It's mostly since the shadowpriest (and small additional warlock) nerf that has caused shadow priests on average (i.e. not all the time, but typically) to not be able to quite match their counterparts (warlocks and mages).

You definitely don't have to worry about shadowpriests not getting raid spots, their synergy with the rest of the raid is so great that not bringing 1 at all is a massive detriment to your raid. Almost akin to not raiding with paladins.

The nerf did hit us hard and Tosh is right, that we no longer belong at the top.

The other problem besides the nerf is of course our horrible scaling. I really hope they take a look at the hardcoded mindflay coefficient again (though I doubt it). As gear progresses we just get worse (compared to other DPS classes for DPS).

The mana regen is still imba ofc. and we'll still be taken for that (and the cushion VE gives on certain encounters)

Kinshara
16-07-2007, 03:44 PM
The nerf did hit us hard and Tosh is right, that we no longer belong at the top.

The other problem besides the nerf is of course our horrible scaling. I really hope they take a look at the hardcoded mindflay coefficient again (though I doubt it). As gear progresses we just get worse (compared to other DPS classes for DPS).

Given that you aren't a dps-only class, that's fine.

The mana regen is still imba ofc. and we'll still be taken for that (and the cushion VE gives on certain encounters)

Indeed :)

Faylin
16-07-2007, 03:59 PM
well, anyone has some DPS numbers then for whole fights, and compared to what your other dps does?

I'll give some I can dig up with screenshots from recent fights:
- Magtheridon: 788
- Al'ar 885
- Karathress 809
- Void Reaver 569 (aggro limited)
- Morogrim 740
- Lurker, no SS here, but 650-700 iirc
- Hydross, no SS here, but also 700 ish iirc

spikeyy
16-07-2007, 05:51 PM
well, anyone has some DPS numbers then for whole fights, and compared to what your other dps does?

I'll give some I can dig up with screenshots from recent fights:
- Magtheridon: 788
- Al'ar 885
- Karathress 809
- Void Reaver 569 (aggro limited)
- Morogrim 740
- Lurker, no SS here, but 650-700 iirc
- Hydross, no SS here, but also 700 ish iirc

Recent kills:

Mag - Top was warrior on 1031. 788 would of put you 9th
Al'ar - dont have any wws parses so cant check :(
Karathress - top was rogue on 1143, 809 would put you 7th (tho I am sure I was always higher than 7th on that fight, is a nice one for shadow priests)
VR - get a soulstone, cos that would put you 14th...our shadow priest managed 825 dps
Morogrim - top was lock on 1354 (our top dps lock was not there), 740 would put you 15th, below the feral druids
Lurker - 700 would put you 12th. Top was warrior on 1063
Hydross - er this week our dps seems awful...so top was lock on 999. you would be 9th with 700.

So anyway, thats roughly where your figures would be with us. So if you are top 5, then I do believe your other dps is slacking. All the figures I took were from our kills this week.

Maesto
20-07-2007, 11:25 AM
With you numbers it's roughly compares to our DPS from our last SSC clear like this:

Hydross: 9'th
Lurker: 9'th
Morogrim: 12'th
FLT: 6'th (as you said a good fight for us, can sometime still grab a top 3 myself)