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Parcival
17-04-2007, 07:20 AM
I dont know if the following is supposed to happen, or if it is a small bug on Blizzard's part.

When i am tanking alot of mobs with my Consecration ability, i dont do any spell criticals because consecration can't crit. When i then pull a next wave of mobs (think Moroes chamber) with my Avenger's shield, i often, if not all the times, crit all 3 hits of my Avenger's shield.

So it looks like the game... stores in its memory that i dont have critted with spells for some time, and that the next few spells have a 100% chance to crit.

Have any other paladins witnessed this?

Boelle
17-04-2007, 07:56 AM
I'm guessing the next wave is the mobs sitting down at the tables? :)

Parcival
17-04-2007, 08:04 AM
Yep, large group of non elite mobs.

Boelle
17-04-2007, 08:08 AM
They are sitting down, so you will always crit on all of them :)

Über
17-04-2007, 08:09 AM
Is this somekind of a sequel to the imba 100% parry buff?

Parcival
17-04-2007, 08:13 AM
Oh... do you automatically crit vs mobs sitting down? If so, i didn't know that and it would explain it.

sageclaire
17-04-2007, 09:26 AM
Oh... do you automatically crit vs mobs sitting down? If so, i didn't know that and it would explain it.

For melee/physical dmg = yes
for spell dmg = no

Parcival
17-04-2007, 09:42 AM
hmmm then it doesnt make sense - Avenger's shield is spell damage.

Kinshara
17-04-2007, 10:03 AM
I've seen this quite a few times on my protadin as well... don't think I'll complain too much about a large threat boost to start the fight with :)

Backupo
17-04-2007, 10:47 AM
It works on melee crit like SoC, with a spell damage component.

infneon
19-04-2007, 01:47 AM
It works on melee crit like SoC, with a spell damage component.

/nod

Seeing as it works off of melee crit I'm sure melee crit effects will aply to it, such as strikes hitting a sat down player will always crit. Nice to see there are other paladin tanks out there too

Ogg
21-04-2007, 01:09 PM
avenger's shield is holy damage, but a physical attack. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to miss.

Parcival
21-04-2007, 02:00 PM
kk, thanks all for the answers, i understand now :)

Can't wait for the shield to not have minimum range anymore... lol great aggro tool gets better :)

Backupo
21-04-2007, 05:31 PM
kk, thanks all for the answers, i understand now :)

Can't wait for the shield to not have minimum range anymore... lol great aggro tool gets better :)

You would lose all mitigation if you tryed to cast it whilst tanking, another pointless change by a foolish company.

Ogg
21-04-2007, 08:23 PM
there are plenty of other uses, namely the daze debuff making 0 yrd minimum a nice upgrade.

Parcival
21-04-2007, 09:07 PM
Ever tried casting Avenger's Shield while someone else pulled (accidently or not) and is running towards you?

Effect: just when avengers shield would go off, it says 'target is too close'. No more of that then :)

Or... you're fighting close quarters with some others, when you notice some mobs lost attention to others in your party... Avenger shield brings it right back :)

Of course, most use here is in more 'easy' instances... indeed you would loose mitigation.. still, nice little change. Its an extra, without loosing something...

Backupo
21-04-2007, 10:13 PM
Meh, it's just a filler for what could've been an actual tanking upgrade.

Parcival
22-04-2007, 07:25 AM
imp Holy shield = actual tanking upgrade.
Ardent defender = actual tanking upgrade (makes us closer to the same health as warriors?).

I think we're doing good as tanks :)

Arjen
22-04-2007, 08:56 AM
I think we're doing ok as tanks :)

Fixed. :P

I doubt we're ever meant to be "good" at anything really. Part of being a Paladin is being okay at everything. But the main thing is, we can do everything.

Also Backup, you're a miserable git. Cheer up!

Backupo
22-04-2007, 10:22 AM
CBA, but it's been stated by blizzard several times that we have only 2 roles PvE-wise, and that so do warriors, and in effect should be equal in our own 'special way' to warriors, like druids are.


I don't even play anymore and still think Blizzard are a retarded company.

Parcival
23-04-2007, 08:48 AM
/shrug

To each their own opinion. I believe paladins are great :)

Gpx
23-04-2007, 08:53 AM
Fixed. :P

I doubt we're ever meant to be "good" at anything really. Part of being a Paladin is being okay at everything. But the main thing is, we can do everything.

Also Backup, you're a miserable git. Cheer up!



Have you saw a paladin heal? / Mana Regen?

Long boss fights paladins > Preezts and Dr00ds.

Parcival
23-04-2007, 09:31 AM
Hehe... think about it... 2 paladins tanking Karazhan, and 3 paladins healing... could work!

Now then we need other classes to do our dps :)

Kinshara
23-04-2007, 10:06 AM
Have you saw a paladin heal? / Mana Regen?

Long boss fights paladins > Preezts and Dr00ds.

Which might be why illumination is getting cut in half... so they'll still be good single target spam healers, but they won't outlast everyone by a stupid amount anymore.

Arjen
24-04-2007, 06:24 AM
Which might be why illumination is getting cut in half... so they'll still be good single target spam healers, but they won't outlast everyone by a stupid amount anymore.

A lot of that stupid mana regen came from Spiritual Attunement in fights, the boost from which was, to be honest way, way higher than it needed to be.

But that's getting nerfed too.

Ultimately, it just means that Pallies will need to keep an eye now on mana. I don't see it as a drastic issue as the size of each heal isn't really affected. Illumination remains decent - if not as spectacularly armour-defining as before.

Arjen
24-04-2007, 05:05 PM
Have you saw a paladin heal? / Mana Regen?

Long boss fights paladins > Preezts and Dr00ds.

Yeah, I've been a Holy Paladin for over 18 months. I've seen Paladin healing and know its capabilities well enough.

Sorry, I meant to really say that I don't think our exceptional healing was intended. Pallies weren't supposed to be best at anything, I think. But our talent specs show that we can operate in very clear roles - behind a main role (i.e MT or MH - um... raiddps too kk).

And I'll always maintain, priests > pallies in healing. Prayer of Mending > all. The best healing spell ever. :P

Backupo
24-04-2007, 05:26 PM
We weren't 'supposed' to 2 years ago, it's a completely differen't game since then.

Arjen
24-04-2007, 05:59 PM
The original intented purpose of Paladins still exists. That's why we tend to get such drastic changes from time to time i.e. dps nerf, then boost, healing boosts, nerf etc. It's a difficult class to maintain standards with as all aspects of the game (dps, healing, tanking etc) need to be accounted for with any changes that are made.
As a result, Blizz tend to screw up more often than not. Our purpose is to be "off-<Insert Role>". Making us the best at a specific role defeats the objective.
Also, it makes the other classes more useless.

Backupo
24-04-2007, 10:03 PM
It's not the current role and hasn't been for a very long time now.


If we were going by original Blizzard standards, we'd be very close to a warrior.

Ogg
26-04-2007, 04:59 PM
Well basically, a paladin is a warrior who's allowed to wear cloth or mail without being deemed a fucking faggot.

On a serious note, I find that atm paladin healing and tanking is very well balanced. Given the decent gear, we're just as good as any other class, we're just not specialized into it. A good example is priests, whom our holy light/flash of light can be compared to in power, but we still don't have renew or shield.

Duckman
04-05-2007, 07:14 PM
but we still don't have renew

Doesn't Dreanei pallys have some kind of HoT?
I know jack about them, but I think I overheard something about it long ago.. might be wrong tho


/Ducky

Duckman
04-05-2007, 08:52 PM
Pallies weren't supposed to be best at anything, I think.

/Quote from wow-europe:
"Paladins are a defensive class designed to outlast their opponents.

The Paladin is a mix of a melee fighter and a secondary spell caster. The Paladin is ideal for groups due to the Paladin's healing, Blessings, and other abilities."

I think you're right. Pallys was ment to be a mix of melee fighter and secondary spell caster according blizz's side it seems. (and ofcorse buff / put up auras / cleanse / look good)
and it's pretty much how it works in raids (atleast at lvl.60) pallys kept people from dieing and topping of with FoL (mostly), while priest took care of the big heals.

I gotta say, I like healing in dungeons / raids much more nowdays, since paladins can main heal / solo heal in dungeons much better now then they could at lvl.60.. atleast in my experience.. tho I didn't do much dungeons since I started raiding.. hmm...
Oh well..


/Duck

Arjen
05-05-2007, 12:55 AM
Doesn't Dreanei pallys have some kind of HoT?
I know jack about them, but I think I overheard something about it long ago.. might be wrong tho


/Ducky

That's right. We do. I'm currently retri spec, but the heal is also affected by one's +healing, which makes it extremely effective. So I can't wait until i hit the high levels again and see what it's capable of.

Arjen
05-05-2007, 01:02 AM
/Quote from wow-europe:
"Paladins are a defensive class designed to outlast their opponents.

The Paladin is a mix of a melee fighter and a secondary spell caster. The Paladin is ideal for groups due to the Paladin's healing, Blessings, and other abilities."

I think you're right. Pallys was ment to be a mix of melee fighter and secondary spell caster according blizz's side it seems. (and ofcorse buff / put up auras / cleanse / look good)
and it's pretty much how it works in raids (atleast at lvl.60) pallys kept people from dieing and topping of with FoL (mostly), while priest took care of the big heals.

I gotta say, I like healing in dungeons / raids much more nowdays, since paladins can main heal / solo heal in dungeons much better now then they could at lvl.60... atleast in my experience.. tho I didn't do much dungeons since I started raiding.. hmm...
Oh well..


/Duck

This bit is just so true. It drove me barmy when people put Pallies on to healing the MT. Like, why? We have a fucking spectacular flash heal, let us worry about maintaining the rest of the raid, while the important person is managed by the best healer in the game - i.e. priest.

With the last bit, I disagree. I actually found it more difficult to heal now. I could solo heal a 10-man to UBRS no problem "back in the day". Nowadays, unless it's a good group balance, I would have refused a lot of Heroic instances. Aside from that, standard instances are pretty tough for the average Holy Pally. To be fair, there seem to be a lot more decent tanks I've come across now, but despite their mitigation skills, I still tend to sweat while trying to keep the group alive (which of course, adds to the enjoyment :P).

Alverion
05-05-2007, 02:38 AM
This bit is just so true. It drove me barmy when people put Pallies on to healing the MT. Like, why? We have a fucking spectacular flash heal, let us worry about maintaining the rest of the raid, while the important person is managed by the best healer in the game - i.e. priest.


Except Paladins are the best single-point healers while priests are the best all round raid healers. Also combine the fact that paladins that spec for healing currently are basically unlimited heal factories who can keep pumping out hard hitting heals with a reasonable fast time practically forever. Illumination is a wasted talent when you are spot healing (i.e not consistantly healing the same target or at a consistant rate of healing) and your lack of hots means you have no fire-and-forget spells to cover larger groups of people in a shorter time as well as provide a top up for further damage.

Miw
05-05-2007, 02:44 AM
I could never find that damn healing button :(

Alverion
05-05-2007, 02:58 AM
3rd from the left.

Arjen
05-05-2007, 09:15 AM
Illumination is a wasted talent when you are spot healing

Eh?!

Alverion
05-05-2007, 11:33 AM
Eh?!

Illumination works based on you critting. Spot healing (or cross raid healing) is sporadic and not consistant meaning that your mana regain through crits is a lot less. It's pretty simple to understand, less heals means less crits means less use of Illumination means wasted talent means a central talent becomes marginalised. Follow me?

Putting a paladin on the MT means you are maximising the use of nearly all of their talents, this isn't even going into how much better HPS (health per second) HL (with BoL active on the tank) is over Greater Heal.

Even with the nerf to Illumination (Like the druid nerfs, needed but not quite so severely maybe) a paladin could feasibly spam HL on a tank for an almost indefinite amount of time given consumables and/or a shadow priest. It's not even worth discussing how much better it is to use a paladin on the MT than healing nearly anyone else.

Kabhanda
05-05-2007, 03:35 PM
Inspiration and Ancestral Fortitude are both far better reasons to put someone on an MT than anything a palakek can claim, and in any fight where a decent amount of raid healing is needed there is basically always something to heal.

Arjen
05-05-2007, 05:38 PM
Illumination works based on you critting. Spot healing (or cross raid healing) is sporadic and not consistant meaning that your mana regain through crits is a lot less. It's pretty simple to understand, less heals means less crits means less use of Illumination means wasted talent means a central talent becomes marginalised. Follow me?



You've obviously been in some very different raids to me. As a spot healer, I was healing non-stop. There was ALWAYS someone that either needed topping up or needed healing - apart from the MT. It's just the way raiding works (not everyone's a bandager or can do so at the right moment). So I was always healing. So when you said Illumination is a wasted talent for a spot healer, I think that was a pretty dumb thing to say. Illumination is a useful talent for ANY Pally that makes frequent use of their heal buttons. Follow me?

Alverion
05-05-2007, 07:58 PM
Inspiration and Ancestral Fortitude are both far better reasons to put someone on an MT than anything a palakek can claim, and in any fight where a decent amount of raid healing is needed there is basically always something to heal.

Of course, but we're talking raids here so unless you are bringing 8 paladins to your raid, you won't have just paladins on the tank. The reason for putting paladins on the MT primarily is because of their great HP/S and longevity, they can simply outlast any other healer while putting out comparable or better HP/S. But you already know this and are just trolling for the fun of it : b

You've obviously been in some very different raids to me. As a spot healer, I was healing non-stop. There was ALWAYS someone that either needed topping up or needed healing - apart from the MT. It's just the way raiding works (not everyone's a bandager or can do so at the right moment). So I was always healing. So when you said Illumination is a wasted talent for a spot healer, I think that was a pretty dumb thing to say. Illumination is a useful talent for ANY Pally that makes frequent use of their heal buttons. Follow me?

Hmm, maybe I was too agressive in my posting last night : b

Raiding has changed, quite a lot, I don't know if you've raided in TBC at all, but the use of a paladin as a spot healer is not like it was in BWL, AQ40 or Naxx. Encounters like Maulgar, Gruul and Magetheridon don't require very large amounts of raid healing. With the inclusion of shamans on alliance side you'll find that their cross raid healing is much better and more effecient then any other class. Karazhan may well be an exception, but its only 10 man so not really a good example of healing strategems. Hydross would probably make for a decent one if the MT wasn't under such a barrage of damage most of the time (whether switching or single state tanking [made impossible in coming patch, I know]). At the moment it's as if very nearly every encounter focuses on keeping the tank alive for long periods of time.

Regardless of where you are raiding, paladins are still a better choice for MT healing over spot healing and Illumination is the talent that sets them far above that. MTs take too much damage over a significant course of time in the current set of raid encounters compared to the rest of the raid to have paladins doing anything other then where they shine most which is MT healing.

This is my point when I say paladins just aren't worthwhile spot healers, the returns from Illumination just aren't as good as when you are healing the target taking the most damage all the time. Which is what I meant when I said the talent was wasted.

Kabhanda
05-05-2007, 08:20 PM
Raiding has changed, quite a lot, I don't know if you've raided in TBC at all, but the use of a paladin as a spot healer is not like it was in BWL, AQ40 or Naxx. Encounters like Maulgar, Gruul and Magetheridon don't require very large amounts of raid healing.

Leotheras, Morogrim, Karathress, Lurker, Vashj, Void Reaver, Al'ar, Solarian(in some phases) all require alot of raid healing (compared to t4 stuff), your examples are the exception, not the rule.

Lets take Void Reaver as an example, damage taken from his melee attack on the tanks is < 20% of damage done (pounding wins hard). quake/graves on moro (and murlocs) whirl/geyser on lurker, totems, tombs, shots, shadow volleys etc on karathress, whirlwinds/chaos blasts/inner demons on Leo, meteor/add damage at Al'ar, WotA/adds at solarian, theres huge amounts of raid damage, and the raid damage on Vashj is a whole nother level of comedy. 3 MT healers is the most we have on most fights, at a minimum you want 2 of those to be able to proc insp. Paladins are well suited to the endless spamming of heals, not to tank healing specifically.

Valoran
05-05-2007, 08:38 PM
Raiding has changed, quite a lot, I don't know if you've raided in TBC at all, but the use of a paladin as a spot healer is not like it was in BWL, AQ40 or Naxx. Encounters like Maulgar, Gruul and Magetheridon don't require very large amounts of raid healing. With the inclusion of shamans on alliance side you'll find that their cross raid healing is much better and more effecient then any other class. Karazhan may well be an exception, but its only 10 man so not really a good example of healing strategems. Hydross would probably make for a decent one if the MT wasn't under such a barrage of damage most of the time (whether switching or single state tanking [made impossible in coming patch, I know]). At the moment it's as if very nearly every encounter focuses on keeping the tank alive for long periods of time.
What kab said for this bit.

Regardless of where you are raiding, paladins are still a better choice for MT healing over spot healing and Illumination is the talent that sets them far above that. MTs take too much damage over a significant course of time in the current set of raid encounters compared to the rest of the raid to have paladins doing anything other then where they shine most which is MT healing.
MTs can be healed by any class, it's just a case of matching the HPS required. Illumination relies on crits, which are spikey - even with a highish crit rate. With a 40% crit rate you're still running the risk of not critting for a few heals in a row endangering your tank. While if you look at shaman, priests and druids - they all output decent hps without any crits at all.

This is my point when I say paladins just aren't worthwhile spot healers, the returns from Illumination just aren't as good as when you are healing the target taking the most damage all the time. Which is what I meant when I said the talent was wasted.
Your point is that paladins have great sustainability. This is true, they're fantastic at keeping heals going, whatever needs healed. When raid healing, crits are a bonus in terms of healing done, but a real boon in terms of mana returned.

When it comes to MT healing though, you really can't beat priest/priest/shaman/druid with inspiration/earthshield+ancestral fortitude/HoT combination. Paladins bring nothing to this setup other than never running out of mana. All the points you made with regards to why they are awesome for MT healing really don't apply to the MT section at all, but healing in general.

Backupo
05-05-2007, 08:45 PM
What Kabhanda & Valoran said.

Alverion
05-05-2007, 08:54 PM
Point conceded then

Palados
09-05-2007, 10:08 AM
I would even add that on good geared tank paladin could be wasted for some fights. When he block/dodge/parry 5-6 attacks in a row and then get 10k hit, for example in Maulgar fight. You can't really heal the raid during his "mitigation" period because of a danger to get MT under or close to 50% HP when you just started to heal another person. And you also can't really top him fast enough unless you crit. Say on nightbane fight due to extra fear resist it happens that I am only healer on a tank, who just got critted and got the breath debuff. And when my heals do not crit the situation is rather scary tbh, especially if you have tankadins who in average don't have that much HP and mitigation as warrior tanks.

On the other hand, if the target is getting moderate but constant damage (like mage tank in Maulgar fight) we are the best choise imho.

So everything depend on encounter. And we are good as soon as any constant flow of healing needed (and tbh 40% illumination nerf isn't really bad, for me it just would mean I will use bigger mana pots instead on unstable one).

Arjen
09-05-2007, 10:51 AM
and tbh 40% illumination nerf isn't really bad

Aye, I don't really think the nerf is all that bad. The SA nerf had to come as the mana regen - especially with shadow priests - was just insane.
The Illumination nerf makes it more difficult for us yes. But it still is the one thing that sets us apart from other healers. If we'd lost it, then it'd be... erch. As it stands, a nerf of 40% (I thought it was 50, btw?) isn't all that bad. It makes what was an exceptional talent, good.

Parcival
09-05-2007, 10:54 AM
Paladins whining so much made it 40% in latest patch notes i believe.

Arjen
09-05-2007, 02:23 PM
Reckon if we whined about getting a spell dmg aura they'd give us that too? :P

Backupo
09-05-2007, 03:28 PM
Sanctity Aura
Instant
Increases Holy damage done by party members within 30 yards by 10%. Players may only have one Aura on them per Paladin at any one time.

Arjen
09-05-2007, 07:49 PM
As a Holy Paladin.

Maybe I should have made it more clear. Also, a full spell damage aura would have been nice rather than just Holy...

Nensec
16-05-2007, 07:43 AM
As a Holy Paladin.

Maybe I should have made it more clear. Also, a full spell damage aura would have been nice rather than just Holy...

Sanctity Aura now increases all damage caused by affected targets by 1/2% and no longer increases healing done to affected targets.

Still isnt holy i know, but atleast were getting in the right direction!