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View Full Version : Stamina vs. Crit Chance


Felwen
03-03-2007, 06:23 PM
Hi guys,

I recently dinged 70 and am trying to figure out the new gear with crit rating, attack power etc. It seems that a lot of gear has moderate agility+stamina whilst other gear has pure agility but no stamina. Depending on what gear I use I can have over 8k hp but my crit chance suffers or I can have 7.2khp and crit chance over 20%.

I am just curious how much hp/crit chance you guys have and where you think the balance is? Obviously you can change gear for pvp, soloing, raiding etc so there is no definitive answer.

Felwen

P.S. Armory would be great for this but it is SO slow and buggy atm.

Oof
03-03-2007, 09:23 PM
7k 26% crit here i think. But i saw some "epic" gear and i had +hit/crit/ap but no agi on it. Basically the things that agi gives. But depends what u want to do with ur char. PvP requests some stamina while if ur gonna raid i think u can gimp urself with Dmg/Crit gear and /mock the healers if u die :P

Hurtgen
05-03-2007, 11:44 AM
most of my gear is stam with +hit/crit/AP, and some hav agi on it.

unbuffed i got 8.4k hp 1300ap 23% crit.

Theleb
05-03-2007, 04:52 PM
Blizzard have been critiscised for their rogue itemisation in TBC, and the main point of contention is the lack of crit (in the form of AGI or +crit rating) on many items, with a plethora of AP/Sta instead.

You can balance out the stats but personally I went for a dps set and a more STA based set for harder fights or Arena combat;

DPS is 25.7% Crit/7.4k HP/1550 AP/About 19% Hit with talents
STA is 22.8%Crit/8.1k HP/@1400 AP/16% Hit (ish)

Fomorx
08-03-2007, 12:30 PM
Blizzard wants rogues to be offtanks it seems. Loads of dodge in T4/T5. they should replace it with agi or to hit tbh. Crit has taken a dump into never never land.

Theleb
12-03-2007, 01:25 AM
Aye, and if you itemise for crit, some other aspect suffers. Thanks Blizz ;p

Oof
12-03-2007, 11:43 AM
Gief us FREEDOM!

miganto
31-03-2007, 11:46 PM
Or maybe they're just trying to boost your dps, whilst lowering huge threat spikes that'd make you take aggro?

Also, the +stam is most likely there as a lot of bosses do aoe's (cleaves, magic, whatever) so it's more there for survivability, imo.

As a tank, i prefer high dps over low standard dps with lots of crits (bringing the dps up)

Turiel
02-04-2007, 09:48 AM
Or maybe they're just trying to boost your dps, whilst lowering huge threat spikes that'd make you take aggro?

Also, the +stam is most likely there as a lot of bosses do aoe's (cleaves, magic, whatever) so it's more there for survivability, imo.

As a tank, i prefer high dps over low standard dps with lots of crits (bringing the dps up)

Rogues don't have threat spikes. Or, at least, dagger rogues don't. Because we have basically 90% crit on our backstabs crits are the norm, and in fact the only spikes are the downward spikes where we don't get a crit for some reason. With raid buffs, dagger rogues will still hit the crit cap (actually, is there a crit cap? I kinda just assumed so).

Rogue threat is fully manageable with feint and indeed vanish, a complete aggro resetting ability. Hell, there's even the new anaesthetic poison which reduces threat but nobody uses - because we don't have aggro problems. Where it hurts is PVP where we don't have raid buffs, where not critting an ambush can mean a lost game. And with the addition of resilience as a stat, its obvious that Blizzard want to reduce the crits over all classes. A 5-10% reduction in rogue crit stats is a part of that imho.

miganto
02-04-2007, 11:41 AM
ok :) i just thought that your crits from backstabs hit for 3k+, and if you get a couple in a row, then its 6k threat in a matter of 2 seconds or so?

My mistake.

Theleb
02-04-2007, 12:00 PM
Mutilate/Backstab Criticals can indeed do a lot of damage but there are a couple of concerns which prevent us from pulling aggro as quickly as you think;

First of all it seems commonplace for a Tank to "suffer" under a barrage of misdirection from the initial pull, their aggro is far higher than the rest of the raids initially and only goes up from there - thats plenty of safe margin even if you should land a series of large critical strikes.

Secondly - energy. Both backstab and Mutilate require large amounts of energy to perform so while the initial "burst" of CP building might yield some large crits, there is then indeed a trough in the threat. In Mutilate builds this is generally at the point where 5 CP's are reached, and we're waiting for +50 energy (I usually wait for the tick that takes me beyond that threshold) before firing off S&D, and with Backstab builds, its waiting for enough energy to do another backstab. Even in the latter case if Blade Flurry is running you'd be unlikely to pull aggro so early unless you were foolish and opened with Ambush - Backstab - Backstab before a safe margin of threat had been reached.

The last point here is that there are a couple of ways for rogues to deal with threat - Feint/Vanish of course, and then the ever-faithful KTM add-on if you want to see exactly how much threat you're generating rather than relying on experience/feel.

I certainly know that while my AP is rising slowly, I need to be in the same party as a Feral Druid to reach "satisfactory" crit levels (I think somewhere about 34% when Mongoose kicks in) although Combat Dagger builds work more satisfactorily given that they have both +5% crit chance on daggers and +30% on Backstab from talents.

miganto
02-04-2007, 12:53 PM
ok :) i was thinking in my head of a group, possibly w/o a hunter. pally tanking...raiding..doesnt really happen :P

You explain it as though the rogue isnt focused on dps, which i am kind've certain is the minority :P But you've explained it well...i'd like a rogue like you in my groups that's for sure.

Mistoria
02-04-2007, 04:44 PM
Hell, there's even the new anaesthetic poison which reduces threat but nobody uses

o'rly?

Anesthetic Poison
Classes: Rogue
Requires Level 68
Use: Coats a weapon with poison that lasts for 30 minutes. Each strike has a 20% chance of poisoning the enemy which instantly inflicts 134 to 172 Nature damage, but causes no additional threat. 130 charges.

Kabhanda
02-04-2007, 05:46 PM
A threat spike is where you swing your mainhand once and accidentally do 15k damage, not getting a 3k crit from a special ability that you pushed a button for.

miganto
02-04-2007, 06:05 PM
threat spike has nothing to do with on purpose or accidental. It's a spike (large uneven increase) in threat....hence the name threat spike.

Lond
03-04-2007, 08:58 AM
With raid buffs, dagger rogues will still hit the crit cap (actually, is there a crit cap? I kinda just assumed so).

Yes, there is a crit cap, but it's rather high for special attacks, because they're not affected by glancing blows and if you place yourself correctly, you can avoid block/parry on the table.

So, for your Backstab, you will only be faced with the inherent dodge in mobs, which is below 10% so the crit cap is more than 90% which you won't be having. Oh, and you will have the slight inherent miss chance of ~5.6%, but anyone with an ounce of knowledge will have covered that through Precision/Gear.

For white attacks, you will be facing glancing blows on the table, and a much higher miss rate. Something like:

40% glancing blows (they can't crit)
5.6% dodge
24.6% miss (reduced by hit rating/precision)

The rest for crits/regular hits, and the cap will then obviously be around 55% crit with 300+ hit rating, but since we're talking white attacks you won't be having that commonly either. Perhaps with 2x Mongoose procs, future gear, and with full raidbuffs+consumables, but I doubt it.

In short, don't worry about the crit cap unless you have a crappy hit rating.

Of course, all of the above is assuming we're talking about raid encounters (71+ lvl).

---

I agree that dagger builds generally suffer less from "threat spikes" as you put it, but since we're playing a game with lots of random numbers, it's inevitable to happen. Mutilate, which would be categorized as a dagger skill, is somewhat prone to spikes because of the relatively low crit rate, and the typical Envenom usage. Then there are the countless examples of tanks sleeping or unluckily missing many of his initial attacks, and god knows what else goes wrong. Let's be happy we have KTM.

In my experience as a rogue, the most threat spike prone builds are those that benefit most from Windfury Totem, like Sword/Fist combat builds.

Theleb
03-04-2007, 02:51 PM
ok :) i was thinking in my head of a group, possibly w/o a hunter. pally tanking...raiding..doesnt really happen :P

You explain it as though the rogue isnt focused on dps, which i am kind've certain is the minority :P But you've explained it well...i'd like a rogue like you in my groups that's for sure.

Well its funny you should say that Rogues aren't focused on DPS....(and this isn't really anything to do with crit chance so its kinda off on a tangent) but I find myself more useful in an encounter where I have a task that relies on the other abilities a rogue has (ok, not many but some...;p ).

Basically, in a world where caster classes (Warlocks and Shadow Preists particularly it seems) often top the damage meters, due to the nature of some fights in TBC Endgame being particularly rogue-unfriendly, I find that in encounters where I get to stun/kick mobs I'm far more vital than supplying just DPS. Don't misunderstand me, I'd love to be back in the situation before the weapon skill nerf where we constantly raped the meters, but thats not going to happen so finding ancilliary roles at least makes rogues feel wanted.

Even if we're not all the time :-)

With regards to the Hit/Miss/Crit chance, there are a couple of different theories as to exactly how Blizzard arive at the end result, but basically Long hit the nail on the head with the figures (which can then allegedly be manipulated by +weapon skill items but as you will inevitably lose out on some other aspect by itemising that way, I don't think its worthwhile to make the attempt unless you really can't sleep without knowing).

imigrid
12-04-2007, 10:05 AM
Hell, there's even the new anaesthetic poison which reduces threat
Im not sure if you meant that the overall threat is reduced, or if you meant that it reduces threath by a percentage each hit, cuz its just like instant poison, but causes no threat.

Turiel
12-04-2007, 12:27 PM
Im not sure if you meant that the overall threat is reduced, or if you meant that it reduces threath by a percentage each hit, cuz its just like instant poison, but causes no threat.

The poison was something I looked when it first came out and promptly forgot about without even buying so my memories of what it actually did were a little shaky.

Er, I mean, yes thats what I meant.

Manidim
12-04-2007, 01:07 PM
Unless the tank just stands there not using sunders and just normal autohitting, the rogue wont get aggro after a Misdirection barrage... Not speaking out of experience, but i just cant realize how it could go that way.

Hammett
13-04-2007, 11:21 AM
Anhaestic Poison got nerfed bad. Looked nice, now it's shit. Complete shit.

Fingers
08-05-2007, 11:53 AM
Felwen, check my gear (not the best by any stretch), and my talent build - I find this to be a good, solid raiding (PvE) build, which offers steady DPS on both trash and boss fights.

Using a combination of SS and Shiv attacks with SnD/Envenom finishers (Instant poison on the main hand, Deadly poison on the off hand), I do a substantial amount of sustained DPS throughout the raid.

(Some prefer to use Parry and Riposte rather than +dodge)

It's well worth spending the cash on Mongoose - it procs very often and it's a great source of additional dps.

Still contemplating combat/daggers though...

Mistoria
08-05-2007, 12:41 PM
bleh, 7k hp is where the fun is at :P

Chopper
08-05-2007, 12:53 PM
...but those sweeping strikes really suck ass, don't they?

Fingers
08-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Mist - your sig URL is broke :P

Mistoria
08-05-2007, 04:31 PM
...but those sweeping strikes really suck ass, don't they?

That's a bug in the game which i shall continue to whine about until 2.1, grr!

Mist - your sig URL is broke :P

fixing it is low on my priorities atm :P

Writing this probably took more effort than fixing it but but..... bah

Fingers
09-05-2007, 06:44 AM
/giggle