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View Full Version : Druids, new nerf. What do you think about it?


Lednar
24-02-2007, 12:59 PM
# When the duration of "Cyclone" ends, area buffs such as "Leader of the Pack", "Tree of Life", and "Moonkin" will now be correctly resumed.
# "Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health.
# "Dire Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health. In addition, the armor bonus has been reduced from 450% to 400%.
# The multiplier on base weapon damage for "Mangle (Bear)" ability has been changed from 130% to 100%. In addition, the bonus damage has been reduced by the same ratio.
# "Savage Fury" no longer affects "Mangle (Bear)".
# "Savage Fury" no longer applies to "Maul" or "Swipe".
# The critical damage bonus on "Predatory Instincts" reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%.
# "Improved Leader of the Pack" can no longer get critical heals.
# The armor bonus from "Moonkin Form" has been increased from 360% to 400% (to match Dire Bear Form).
# The rage normalization equation has been adjusted to grant more rage.

What do you think? I got two questions, is there any point putting 2 points in Savage Fury now? And is "Predatory Instincts" worth 5 points now? Since Imp. LoaP don't crit anymore...is there any point taking 2 points?

I know what I mean, but I want to know what other druids think.

Kinshara
24-02-2007, 01:13 PM
Not sure how it will affect overall threat generation when tanking yet. If you are mostly tanking, then I guess savage fury isn't really worth it anymore. Still good if you have a kitty dps spot, however.

As for the rest of it... need time to test. Especially for pvp.

Lednar
24-02-2007, 01:16 PM
I'm wondering if Blizzard will make a new abillity for druids then. Cause if we can't damage to hold aggro then what else can we do? Look's like most of us gonna respec Balance or Resto.

Was thinking for tanking.

AnteroVipune
24-02-2007, 01:43 PM
I'm wondering if Blizzard will make a new abillity for druids then. Cause if we can't damage to hold aggro then what else can we do? Look's like most of us gonna respec Balance or Resto.

Was thinking for tanking.

And how does it look like that? The changes aren't even live yet.
How about you wait and see.

Lednar
24-02-2007, 01:50 PM
And how does it look like that? The changes aren't even live yet.
How about you wait and see.

True. Still, I don't expect anything from Blizzard that will balance this more. >.< As faar as I know they haven't changed almost anything at the other patches about other classes.

soulshift
25-02-2007, 03:40 AM
http://lolemodruid.ytmnd.com/ best thing ever. :<

Stim
25-02-2007, 03:46 AM
Awww /pat
I luv droodz... But...
DIE IN A FIERY WAY!!!!111oneoneeleven
http://lolemodruid.ytmnd.com/ best thing ever
Bear is sad, tanking gone bad,
Damage is not so much done.
Armor decreased, crit heals are ceased,
Time to call warrior tank.
^^

Dinmomz
25-02-2007, 04:10 AM
well the savage fury nerf is a bit off imo

but the rest is well good. Imo the mangle in bearform was just too awesome. My teddy crits for about 1,6k on mobs and thats a bit much imo. And i dont really have any good gear yet either (lvl69 on 68-70 mobs) :p

no more crit heals with imp LotP is weak tho... not like it did too much difference.

Talsin
25-02-2007, 09:15 AM
Here is the compiled list of druid nerfs in 2.10 and short analysis.

Assuming druid with 25% critchance.

Swipe:
- The bonus to "Swipe" from the "Idol of Brutality" has been reduced from 50 to 10.
- "Savage Fury" no longer applies to "Maul" or "Swipe"

Conclusion:
Swipe is now inferior to 1.12 status where it didn't scale. In 1.12 it used to grant 194 agro pre-armor. Now we are talking a total value with Brutality at level 70:
1000 AP: 180 threat (remember this is level 70, not level 60 like the 194 1.12 value)
1500 AP: 229 threat
2000 AP: 269 threat

Maul:
- "Savage Fury" no longer applies to "Maul" or "Swipe"

Conclusion:
Loss of 20% in damage, a bit more from Predatory Instincts.
Agro loss is in the arena around 15%.

Mangle (Bear):
- "Savage Fury" no longer affects "Mangle (Bear)".
- The multiplier on base weapon damage for "Mangle (Bear)" ability has been changed from 130% to 100%. In addition, the bonus damage has been reduced by the same ratio.

Conclusion:
Got hit hard. From 156% + X to 100% + X / 1.3. Large agro and damage reduction, no threat multiplier added to compensate. I could personally understand lowering the base damage from 130% to 100%, resulting in a direct 23% damage reduction to the ability (around 25% including Predatory instinct nerf). 25% is a LARGE decrease, but they had to pour salt in the wound and take it off Savage Fury as well. Total damage loss AND threat loss for this ability: 37.5%

Bear:
- "Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health.
- "Dire Bear Form" now grants 25% increased stamina instead of 25% increased health. In addition, the armor bonus has been reduced from 450% to 400%.

Conclusion:
Nothing serious, paladins and warrior have to deal with lower HP as well.
But armor nerf in addition? Saying it pretty simple, unacceptable. This is our Crushing Blow protection, our way to mitigate it.

Other stuff:
- "Improved Leader of the Pack" can no longer get critical heals.
- The critical damage bonus on "Predatory Instincts" reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%.

Buffs:
- The rage normalization equation has been adjusted to grant more rage.
- The armor bonus from "Moonkin Form" has been increased from 360% to 400% (to match Dire Bear Form).

My overall thoughts:
- Mangle got hit, no worries for me if the reduction was 20% or so because it was a bit high, but 37.5%? They are either kidding me or they have smoked something noone should EVER smoke.
- Swipe to 1.12 status, a bit too harsh, idol was severely nerfed as well. With Thunder Clap in defensive stance druids the AOE tanking league is now this: Paladin > Warrior > Druid or perhaps Paladin > Warrior = Druid with some luck
- Health nerfs will be noticeable but acceptable
- Imp. LotP not critting is fine, nothing that worries me, crits rarely anyways. Moonkin is probably glad for some extra armor. Most of this is minor stuff im ignoring.

And last but not least: Savage Fury COMPLETELY useless now for tanking. 3 out of 6 abilities removed (Bear Mangle, Maul and Swipe removed, Cat Mangle, Rake (lol) and Claw (lol again) stayed intact). (this from blizz forums)


overal its just a pure tank nerf, and breaking mangle down to even worse than maul.
the patch does not post anything about threat modiifier changes but reports from some friends on ptr say, its still doable for things like 5 mans even holding aggro vs a shadow priest nuking, just as long as you get a build up.
for non bleed mobs, now that is totally gone, so is the multimob targeting.

imho they did it a bit to much overall.
bear ac and dps lower fine, hp nerf well ok. all this can be compensated with later loot (which ofc really isnt there since its all healbot stuff gee wonder what blizz wants again for druids)
but the threat nerf is what hurts it most.
viable offtanks. well have to see. mt? nope not till there ever is a new tank set out with the armor vs crushing.

Lednar
25-02-2007, 11:17 AM
Thanks Talsin! After have read that post I'm still saying this wasn't a nerf, but rather a kick in the balls. And I thought that MANGLE(BEAR) was the problem. Not everything else.

Manidim
26-02-2007, 01:33 PM
Its about fuckin time you got nerfed, if you see a warrior crit 1600 in prot, please send me a pic, that is with shield and 1 hand and not execute. You cant be freaking serious if you expected that you could keep that dmg output in your TANK mode forever. And that HP was crazy as well. Its about time they get nerfed and as with the other classes when they get nerfed, whining wont give it back to you. Maybe after this patch, things will be a bit more balanced, when druids might work as intended for real. Not like some superman in teddy bear suit.

Faylin
26-02-2007, 01:43 PM
https://secure.1k.ca/rbccm/nph-proxy.cgi/000110A/http/www.eventideguild.com/images/shieldslam4248enragedw.jpg

Owned.

Go troll somewhere else.

Talsin
26-02-2007, 01:52 PM
Its about fuckin time you got nerfed, if you see a warrior crit 1600 in prot, please send me a pic, that is with shield and 1 hand and not execute. You cant be freaking serious if you expected that you could keep that dmg output in your TANK mode forever. And that HP was crazy as well. Its about time they get nerfed and as with the other classes when they get nerfed, whining wont give it back to you. Maybe after this patch, things will be a bit more balanced, when druids might work as intended for real. Not like some superman in teddy bear suit.

/golfclap

if you read back its not that druids are whining about the expected nerf in dps, to not have expected that, well lets say that is usually reserved for players for other classes.
its mainly the destruction of bear tanking, with the loss of threat.
Blizz made mangle scale with 2handers, and upped dps to scale with the updates with dps. and the loss of our threat modifiers.
now they are reversing the damage to pre tbs without mentioning the new threat modifiers.
first well have to see how this goes life b4 people whine. but this nerf mainly aimed at the poor players who suddenly died in pvp to a druid. hurts in pve tanking more, and that is where druids are pissed off about.

Manidim
26-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Okey, so they can pull those crits off once in a life time, and he's fury btw, but to crit like that every time? not a fat chance.

Faylin
26-02-2007, 02:02 PM
He's 31 protection. And no, ofcourse that's not a normal crit. But you asked for 1600, I gave you 4k+

Kinshara
26-02-2007, 02:09 PM
Yeah, that was a fun thread. Stack crazy amounts of block value and spec for deathwish + shield slam, then see what you can get.

I think someone managed to top 6K... against a naked warrior in zerker with deathwish and recklessness up :)

I'm not sure how much a staged screenie counts for, though it does show SS is capable of lots of damage if you gimp everything else for it.

Edit: normal shield slams in tank gear tend to get crits between 1K and 1500(ish), depending on how much block value you have, the armor of the target, and whether your spec includes any of the damage modifiers (enrage, deathwish, etc...)

Moomonde
26-02-2007, 05:36 PM
Someone managed to top 6k on a mage, the SS also showed that the warrior received Honour for that kill.

People don't stage kills when honour is at stake, they have principles

normal shield slams in tank gear tend to get crits between 1K and 1500(ish), depending on how much block value you have, the armor of the target, and whether your spec includes any of the damage modifiers (enrage, deathwish, etc...)

So your average shield slam, in gear which gives a lot of survivablility, does a hell of a lot of damage.

*swoosh*
*whack*
/nerfbatplzkkthxbai

Flawless
26-02-2007, 05:43 PM
11% crit chance, yeah, them crits happen all the time for me :<

As for survivability if you want to go that route, hey if you spec NS you can get an instant heal,

/nerfba.... yeah what ever you get the idea.

Kinshara
26-02-2007, 05:49 PM
Someone managed to top 6k on a mage, the SS also showed that the warrior received Honour for that kill.

People don't stage kills when honour is at stake, they have principles

Eh? You kill someone, staged or not, you get honor. Twas the same when a lock staged a 13K pvp soulfire pre-tbc. You won't find people running around with 800 block value in pvp regularly, because their stamina and ap/crit will be too low.

Yeah, it hits for a lot with the right gear, but the white dps that goes with it is quite low -- 1hander, and low AP/crit rate.


As for mangle... I think it got hit a bit too hard with the bat. Somewhere in the middle seems more suitable -- taking it off savage fury at the same time as setting it to 100% paw damage was a bit much imo. Anyone able to test threat output at 70 on the PTR?

Moomonde
26-02-2007, 07:11 PM
http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warriorhaxzb1.jpg

could wellhave been staged, but i havent seen any 6k mangle's yet

Flawless
26-02-2007, 07:20 PM
does it matter what the highest crit is, Pyro being the most cosistant highest damage spell in game, go wave the nerf bat at that, or wait, nerf 12 enchancement shamans putting stormstrike on a warrior... Stop QQ'ing 6k crits with sword and board are less common than kitty druids owning a large portion of classes in 15 seconds.

and its funny when a warrior does a 6k crit it needs a nerf, when a mage does pyro pom pyro, or something similar, its an every day occurance right?

Kinshara
26-02-2007, 07:48 PM
Meh. If shield slam is deemed to be too powerful by the devs, it'll be nerfed as well. It is nice to have an attack that scales with a defensive stat; but your offensive stats (and thus your other attacks) suffer in the process.

Might try grinding with it at some point, but you'll have to rely on low white damage to generate rage (Lots of block value means you'll take very little damage from normal mobs, so not much rage from incoming damage)

Lednar
26-02-2007, 07:56 PM
Maybe this isn't the right thread to discuss this?

Faylin
27-02-2007, 11:59 AM
It's not indeed. I intended to /shoo the troll away but instead i fed him. Solly :(

Flawless
27-02-2007, 01:57 PM
Failtus :<

Saha
27-02-2007, 02:33 PM
Stop QQ'ing 6k crits with sword and board are less common than kitty druids owning a large portion of classes in 15 seconds.


Funily enough druids cat form hasn't even been touched with this PTR patch. Next time when you suggest to QQ less at least try to look smart.

Flawless
27-02-2007, 05:12 PM
Funily enough druids cat form hasn't even been touched with this PTR patch. Next time when you suggest to QQ less at least try to look smart.
I think you'll find I was refering to kitty form itself and not the nerf on bear, at least read before replying.

soulshift
27-02-2007, 09:46 PM
Funily enough druids cat form hasn't even been touched with this PTR patch. Next time when you suggest to QQ less at least try to look smart.

# The critical damage bonus on "Predatory Instincts" reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%.

You two say 2 different things. Ofcourse, it's not alot but it did touch kitty form a bit. :P
And like Flaw says, he meant the form in general.

Lednar
28-02-2007, 03:19 PM
Just wanted to add something here... Source here (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=194959539&sid=1)
From the us boards: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79201564&sid=1
(How did we miss this thread?! Shame on you!)


Thanks alot to Tywin!




I spent a few hours on the PTR to test out bear tanking after seeing the massive whinefest going on here. Did a Shadow Labs run and an Arcatraz run with a priest, MS warrior, hunter, and warlock.

This doesn't break bear tanking. Results of testing:

- You're going to lose roughly 1k-2k health in bear, depending on your current level of HP. I lost 1,743hp. Given that I was, on average, 2-3khp higher than any of our warriors, that's an appropriate change.

- You're going to lose roughly 2% damage reduction. Given that I was already sitting at 72% damage reduction, that's an appropriate change.

- You're going to lose the ability to do 40%+ of the group's damage. That never should have been possible to begin with. *** BE AWARE, THIS IS A SIDE NOTE. NOT THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE POST. THE GROUP I TESTED THIS WITH DID NOT FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY. I ran maybe 20% of the damage done with this group on PTR, and generally run 30% or less on live. ***

- Threat on single targets didn't really change. We have slightly more trouble holding onto Lacerate-immune targets if people go wild on DPS, but that's it. Maul + Mangle held targets adequately even on Lacerate-immune targets. Mangle doesn't hit as hard, sure, but it's still an instant burst of damage every 6 seconds.

- Threat on multiple targets is definitely reduced, but still adequate provided that people make a minimal effort to assist and avoid spamming multiple-target attacks. Hunters and warlocks, that means you.

- Damage dealt was reduced, for me, by 32% on the Shadow Labs run, and only about 25% on the Arcatraz run, compared to normal damage results on live. Shadow Labs is a run where almost every pull contains multiple targets, which is the only situation a feral druid could REALLY crank damage out anyway. Arcatraz on the other hand contains far more single target pulls, so the damage reduction wasn't as badly noticeable.It brought me into line with the Mortal Strike warrior I was running around with. While that seems high still, most of our threat comes FROM damage dealt, so again, that's appropriate.

Net sum of changes:

Yes, it sucks. However, a nerf really was needed, in some form or another. I think this was a little more than necessary, but it certainly doesn't appear to have crippled bear tanking. It's harder now, but IMO still easier than tanking as a prot spec warrior currently is.

Also, on a side note, the rage normalization is kinda nice. I didn't seem to have as much trouble struggling to get rage on single target fights, but that could've just been my imagination. I don't have anything that tracks rage gain per swing, unfortunately, so that's just a gut instinct.

-Tywin

-- Post edited to clear up some things that my fellow druids seem to be too dense to understand. Edited sections surrounded by ***

[ Post edited by Tywin ]






-----------------

CHEER UP N HAF SUM FUN
He's basicly saying what I said in my BOS thread; your partymembers need to watch their dps on mulitple mobs. Which is what they should be doing anyway.
This is GOOD news in this storm.

After reading this I've started wondering. Maybe this isn't so bad at all?

Kinshara
28-02-2007, 03:34 PM
Didn't think it would be too bad -- they were never going to destroy druid tanking. Lots of people cried it would be when they originally removed the scaling on maul and swipe as well, but it didn't.

It does mean groups need to be more careful with dps, but that's about it as far as pve goes. Better rage gen sounds good too, same as it does for warriors.

Tis pvp where this hits a bit harder, but I feel a feral druid should be using cat form to deal most of their damage; making a tradeoff in mitigation vs. damage was part of the fun in druid pvp imo.

Lednar
28-02-2007, 04:12 PM
Mostly I had to take damage to gain aggro. Still not hight enought for the Lac skill yet. So for low lv tanking, yes, I'd say they have pretty much destroyed it from what I've heard. Still, this isn't my final opinion. Gonna wait until the patch and see.

Eidriaen
28-02-2007, 11:58 PM
I would write something myself, but when browsing the forums I found this guy explained it way better than me - http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=200160016&sid=1

Easiest way to get people to watch a topic, no? Anyway, me being one of those 'freaking' droods, I just wanted to say that I'm VERY relieved with the topics in this warrior forum. Very happy even. I see a lot of warriors talking about what should be talked about. Not so much the nerf of druids, but the buff of prot specced warriors.

I completely agree that they need a buff damage wise. Perhaps even in the same way we spam swipe, they should get their 'aoe' damage skills buffed (thunder clap, cleave). But the main problem that every guild now is seeing, is that prot warriors are rare. They are less fun to play with, if you don't have a group backing you up. I can relate, because I've been a resto druid for ages. As with prot warriors, we do very very little damage, but just don't die, because we outheal (/outlast) the mobs we fight against.

I doubt that bliz will go and buff prot warriors to the point that they do as much damage as the rest of the classes, even with a buff. So again, I seriously doubt a lot of prot warriors will be around for a long while.
Isn't it better to have other classes able to tank as well then? Like druids? Like paladins?
As a lot of you guys say and have noticed, you guys are still more valuable tanks then druids. Lacerate doesn't work on a lot of mobs for instance. We all love the wonderful hunter that thinks they just have to use feint to save themselves, not thinking that healers get aggro while the mob(s) run at them.

As a little info for the warriors who don't see the reason why we've done so much damage, this has had multiple reasons. For one, we are the most gear independant class there is. We get our damage and abilities from our talents mostly. Second, bliz had to push two forms (cat and bear) in one tree. This means that more then one talent has to work for both forms. Tbh, I think there should be a 4th tree for druids, making one for damage specific and one for tanking specific. Doubt that'll happen, seeing how the talents work in our feral tree. Third; as said, we are very gear independant. With TBC you guys must have noticed the MASSIVE increase in gear stats. This made us VERY powerful from the moment TBC started. Which made us level way easier then, for instance, prot specced warriors and made us do a lot more damage in comparisment to normally.
But I think this is only temporarly. End game gear for druids are lacking and/or are 'hybrid' gear (we're not hybrids, bliz! We go a spec, because we want to specialise. A feral druid will NEVER heal in a party and a resto will never even offtank. Even as bear we're like paper then, if we don't have the talents to back us up). Yes, we will end up doing more damage then prot specs, but that's because we're dps tanks. Our threat generation is seriously lacking skill-wise, it's why we need the damage to compensate that (As long as bliz doesn't give us more threat/damage point, they shouldn't decrease our damage).

End conclusion for me, is that with the nerf on druids (threat-wise, you won't hear me on anything else), everyone will get into trouble. Guilds might end up forcing warriors to go prot specced, even if they don't want to, because there is a lack of good alternative tanks. Druids will go boomkin or resto, out of frustration or not being able to tank (as) well anymore as well, which means even less tanks around.
And all other classes will even have a harder time finding a balanced group to go places...

With this post I'm trying to get warriors to see this druids point of view. I hope you guys aren't offended by anything I wrote and I don't mind a discussion around this topic.

Thanks.

Talsin
01-03-2007, 11:32 AM
At least they got this nice new description up for the druid class, to get rid of the as powerfull as the parent class.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/

Orde
01-03-2007, 11:32 AM
I think its needed you are overpowered atm :)

Talsin
01-03-2007, 11:34 AM
Perhaps you should actually read the thread, to which that post applies


and isn't orde the gu

Saha
01-03-2007, 11:25 PM
- You're going to lose roughly 1k-2k health in bear, depending on your current level of HP. I lost 1,743hp. Given that I was, on average, 2-3khp higher than any of our warriors, that's an appropriate change.

Kinda BS. Druid with only 2-3k hp in bear more than warrior=crap equiped druid. Moreover druids require to have that HP barier over warriors due to fact of it being able to survive crushings.


- You're going to lose roughly 2% damage reduction. Given that I was already sitting at 72% damage reduction, that's an appropriate change.

72% mitigation from armor means ~27-28k armor. Sadly but currently available gear does not support such armor amounts unless you count in stuff like ancestral fortitude or imp lay on hands. It is quite hard to achive over 22k armor without gimping your other stats hardcore. Saying "I am fine I will have only 70% instead of 72%" is kinda fault due to that. Also, please note that dmg incoming on successful swing changes from 28% to 30% in given situation. That means healing required increases not by 2% but by ~7%.


- You're going to lose the ability to do 40%+ of the group's damage. That never should have been possible to begin with. *** BE AWARE, THIS IS A SIDE NOTE. NOT THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE POST. THE GROUP I TESTED THIS WITH DID NOT FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY. I ran maybe 20% of the damage done with this group on PTR, and generally run 30% or less on live. ***

Having 3 dps and doing 30 or 40% of groups dmg as feral tank clearly shows either him being completely outgearing the rest of the group or dps being complete retards or, what is mroe likely, him being full of shit. Normaly on same gear and skill lvl atm bear does ~20% of total groups dmg in live.


- Threat on single targets didn't really change. We have slightly more trouble holding onto Lacerate-immune targets if people go wild on DPS, but that's it. Maul + Mangle held targets adequately even on Lacerate-immune targets. Mangle doesn't hit as hard, sure, but it's still an instant burst of damage every 6 seconds.

BS again... Nerfs directly effect mangle and to lesser extent maul and that is main concern as it will effect both single target and multiple target tanking. Bear tanks who use only swipe on multimobs always made me /lol
Lacerate is extreemly situational therefore even discusing it is kinda idiotic. Simply put, 90% of Karas mobs are bleed imune. Who the fuck cares about lacerate working as it did if I can use it in less than 1/3 of encounters?


- Damage dealt was reduced, for me, by 32% on the Shadow Labs run, and only about 25% on the Arcatraz run, compared to normal damage results on live. Shadow Labs is a run where almost every pull contains multiple targets, which is the only situation a feral druid could REALLY crank damage out anyway. Arcatraz on the other hand contains far more single target pulls, so the damage reduction wasn't as badly noticeable.It brought me into line with the Mortal Strike warrior I was running around with. While that seems high still, most of our threat comes FROM damage dealt, so again, that's appropriate.

So, basicaly he says he lost 32% threat generation in shadow labs and 25% in arca as dmg=bears agro. Yeah, its tiny nerf. rofl

Talsin
02-03-2007, 09:25 AM
and to point out yet again why druids are not happy (better borrow from the forums)

Let's get one thing out of the way right now. Bearform Druids should be able to tank any content that Protection Warriors can tank. In a different way, perhaps, using different tools. Just like a Combat Rogue can DPS any content that a Marksman Hunter can, or a Restoration Druid can heal any content that a Holy Priest can. They all have their ups and downs, and certain classes are more preferable than others for a given situation. But it should be possible. If you can't handle that fact, then I suggest you try to find any other decently playable MMO which features such a narrow, class-specific form of tanking (even FFXI offers more options).

The devil is in the details. Who should have the most damage mitigation? And against what? Who should have the most DPS? And against what? Who should be able to best handle a large pack of trash? Who should be the most capable of tanking caster-style bosses as compared to heavy melee bosses? It's when you get past the easily twistable math that the real issue of who makes the "best" tank comes into play. For example, Defensive Stance is a minor advantage compraed to armor against a fast melee MOB but a huge boon against casting MOBs (since it is damage mitigation no matter what the source).

This post isn't about PvP. I don't care about your PvP experience. I don't care that a Druid critted you for over nine thousand damage with his auto attack. I don't care that you haven't figured out how to fight them (as they are completely killable). They are the least played class, and if you really can't beat them, maybe you just suck. So if you're going to reply with some absurd PvP story. . . don't.

I'm talking about PvE. About the real Bearform Tanks out there. And about how they compare and contrast to Warriors. And before I get into that, I completely agree that Protection Warriors have it rough. Remember, I spent umpteen months as a Resto Druid, so I know the pain of not being able to do a damn thing outside of a raid (perhaps better than anyone, considering Resto Druid's talent tree). And I completely agree that Warriors needed a buff, particularly to rage generation (some of the Protection talents could use modernizing as well, to be honest). I'm also glad they turned Thunderclap into a useful Defensive skill, since the need to shift to cast it negated its primary use.

Now then. Was Bearform Mangle a bit WTFPWN? Sure. A bit. I'll concede that and always have. Did it need a minor damage adjustment? Yes. It ultimately should have been made more like Shield Slam or Devestate. High threat with a tanking utility built into it. Perhaps even a refresh on Lacerate (much as Devestate refreshes the infinitely more desirable Sunder Armor). What it got was a kick in the teeth. It received three independent damage nerfs. Three different, multiplicative changes were made to reduce the damage output of Bearform Mangle. The result is that it now does less damage than Maul (which for Warriors, is like Heroic Strike with less threat), and offers no real utility to Bearform Tanks other than being a mediocre rage dump every 6 seconds.

The real Bearform Tanks aren't all that concerned about our damage being reduced somewhat. We feel that the reduction that was put into place was way, way out of line. It's an overnerf, and anyone who glances at the math can see that. The damage multiplier on Mangle was reduced drastically. The only straight damage-increasing talent that applied to Bearform was made to apply only to Catform. And Bearform, which now has to rely on crits to do damage, had its crit bonus decreased (along with Catform).

But Bearform Tanks are worried about threat. Very worried about it, in fact. We don't bring a lot of abilities to the table, by default. I can fit every Bearform ability in the game on one row of hotkeys. Compared to a Warrior, there are a vast number of threat generation, damage mitigation, and general utility abilities that just aren't in the cards for Bearform Druids. Shield Wall, Last Stand, Retaliation, Shield Slam, Devastate, Revenge, Disarm, Hamstring, Shield Bash, Thunderclap, Shield Block, Spell Reflect. These are just tools I can think of off the top of my head that Bearform Tanks have no analog for.

So Bearform Tanks have to generate threat in a very straightforward way. Simple attacks and threat modifiers. In the Eye of the Storm patch, Bearform threat modifiers were either removed entirely or nerfed into the ground. All of our attacks causes significantly less threat, and the short-duration bleed that Lacerate provides does not earn us this threat back, not by a long shot. Especially not when so much trash and virtually all significant bosses are bleed immune.

The PTR patch is taking away Bearform damage. It needed a small adjustment downwards, what it got was an incredibly severe nerf. But damage was the only way that Bearform had of holding and maintaining aggro. So far, there has been no mention of restoring Bearform threat generation, and no evidence that our threat levels will be maintained or even approach our Eye of the Storm capacities.

Some Protection Warriors call Bearform Tanking EZmode, because we have so few tools to use. The implication is that if a class can simply spam the same few abilities over and over in order to get their job done, they must have an easy time doing it. I reject that suggestion on its face. I would never call Warrior Tanking EZmode, because it is clearly not. But consider how many options, and how many adaptable tactics a Warrior has when tanking. Druids don't have those options. They have to tank with a smaller set of tools, and relatively Plain Jane ones at that. Nor would Druids suggest that they should have as many tanking skills as Protection Warriors have - that wouldn't be right and would cause an outrage. But Druids can't both deserve to have a smaller set of tanking tools and be accused of EZmoding it because they are able to tank within those restrictions. That's playing both sides, and is inherently unfair.

Bearform Tanks want to know where our threat generation is going to come from. We can't tank harder. Literally. Bearform lacks the sorts of rage dumps that Warriors have, and I find that during most prolonged trash fights, or during just about any boss fight, I have more rage than I can shed. I know this makes Warriors angry to hear, because their rage issues have so crippled them lately. But that's being corrected - and the notion that having 80 extra rage rather than 50 extra rage will increase my threat levels is absurd.

I never have a Bearform ability that's not on cooldown or not lit up to be used next. I can't spend any more rage than I currently do. Even keeping Demoralizing Roar fresh, spamming Swipe and Lacerate, hitting Mangle whenever it's cooldown is up, and Mauling on every next swing (which is a good bit longer than a one-handed Protection Warrior) will not shed the rage I get from multi-MOB tanking, or boss tanking (and keep in mind that Lacerate is often useless on bosses, and Swipe's global cooldown penalty nearly negates its use BEFORE the nerf on a single target with a boss's armor).

So if my entire set of tanking tools is getting a damage (and thus threat) reduction, if I am not being given the ability to use those tools more often, and no innate threat generation is being added to Bearform Tanking, exactly why would any group ever want a Bearform Tank for any reason other than Polymorph Immunity (which comes up too seldomly to warrant gearring and speccing for it) or an utter lack of other tanks (which isn't going to happen in a Raid situation)? Once the PTR patch goes live, name me one single reason to ever, ever take a Bearform Tank over a Warrior Tank. Ever.

Damage Mitigation? A Protection Warrior beats us, between Defensive Stance, Parry, Block, Demoralizing Shout (which is more effective than Demoralizing Roar), Thunderclap, Spell Reflect, the ability to use both a Potion and a Healthstone, and emergency tools like Shield Wall and Last Stand. And on magic-heavy MOBs? Forget it. Warrior blows Bearform out of the water.

Damage Delivery? It was never a significant reason to take a tank outside of a 5 man instance (where being 1/5 of the party and dealing damage counts for much more than being 1/25 of the party and dealing damage). Besides, Bearform may now have the single worst damage of any melee class or spec in the game, Protection Warrior included.

Threat Generation? Not anymore. With our threat modifiers removed, and the damage we were given to compensate for those modifiers nerfed as hard as DPS has ever been nerfed in a single patch, we're just not going to be able to compete on any serious level. No one is ever, ever going to look to a Bearform Tank to come along on a raid if they can't perform the most basic function of a tank: Get hit. This, more than anything else, ruins Bearform Tanking. Most Bearform Tanks wouldn't have minded the nerf so much if there were also some notes about threat modifiers being raised. But there were none.

In fact, other than tanking trash in 5 mans and running lower level guildies through instances, I can't really see what the function or purpose of a Bearform Tank is anymore, in light of the other options available in the game. They've essentially been reduced to being a Warrior with a 0 / 0 / 0 spec. That's not being as powerful as a core class without the utility. That's not being a jack of all trades (which, for the record, is the description of Shaman). That's not being 90% of a core class, or 75% or even 50%. That's being useless.

And that's what has Bearform Tanks so upset.

Dinmomz
03-03-2007, 02:34 PM
How many mobs are really bleed immune then? Gruul and the ogre dudes before him? mobs/bosses in serpentshrine? the eye? Karazhan is not 2/3 of all the encounters in the game...

I do however thing that the aggro nerf was stupid and should have been solved with increasing the threat modifiers.
But the dmg nerf WAS needed if only because of pvp. Its silly to have a player with 12-13k hp and 14k armor (going after my own semi-green geared drood here) do mangle crits for ~1800 on cloth.
So leaving it as it was would have been stupid. Blizz seems to be a bit retarded at times and not increasing bearform threat modifiers at this time would indeed be retarded.

Saha
03-03-2007, 05:59 PM
How many mobs are really bleed immune then? Gruul and the ogre dudes before him? mobs/bosses in serpentshrine? the eye? Karazhan is not 2/3 of all the encounters in the game...

I do however thing that the aggro nerf was stupid and should have been solved with increasing the threat modifiers.
But the dmg nerf WAS needed if only because of pvp. Its silly to have a player with 12-13k hp and 14k armor (going after my own semi-green geared drood here) do mangle crits for ~1800 on cloth.
So leaving it as it was would have been stupid. Blizz seems to be a bit retarded at times and not increasing bearform threat modifiers at this time would indeed be retarded.

There is plenty of bleed imune mobs around to make lacerate only situational threat builder and therefore ability which can not be relied on.
Yes, I absolutely agree that bear dmg had to be toned down a lot, as well as bear threat needed toning down a tiny bit. There was plenty of ways to solve the issue but apparently blizz took the most stupid one.
Give old mauls threat modifier to newly nerfed mangle? That way druid would have heroic strike like maul, high threat mangle each 6 seconds which does below mediocre dmg, situational lacerate. PvP problems solved, overall threat generation put into line of about warriors.
Make lacerate to apply on bleed imune mobs giving high initial threat like sunder but not ticking bleed DoT, leave all other nerfs as they are? Again it would solve pvp problems while would leave druids quite ok in agro management.

My main concern is not bears dmg. I don't give cows crap about bears dmg. Give me abilities to build threat. And leave my fucking armor alone=P

Taurusos
05-03-2007, 03:09 PM
"The Massively Multiplayer Online Game(MMO) World of Warcraft(WoW) Druid forums are up in a roar about proposed changes to their class and the ethics of Blizzard and WoW developers.

The Druid forums up in arms: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=10015&sid=1...

The reason for this outcry is due to what many are perceiving as a "bait and switch", for lack of a better term. You see Druids were widely considered to be the least desirable and balanced class in all of WOW. So, for their upcoming expansion, The Burning Crusade, Blizzard Entertainment implemented widespread changes to the Druid class to make it much more versatile and most would acknowledge to keep those Druids still playing the class active.

Related link: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80429050&sid=1...

With the proposed changes it appears that the Druids were lured with promises of a better class with the intent of Blizzard(Vivendi Universal) to get them to purchase The Burning Crusade expansion, US $39.99. Then after the Druids were used to serve the community by "tanking" while the traditional "tanks" Warriors were not outfitted to tank but rather to perform massive damaging maneuvers in order to level up their character faster, Blizzard proposed the changes. The reason being that now that many are at the level 70 cap, those same Warriors are now getting geared to "tank" and wish for the Druids to not "tank" anymore. However, Druids want to "tank", and were promised to be allowed to by Blizzard, before they bought the expansion.

With the above linked changes in patch 2.0.10 it is widely acknowledged that Druids will not be able to "tank" anymore, thus negating the purpose purchase of "The Burning Crusade" expansion as it is widely acknowledged that most would have stopped playing and paying for the services of Blizzard.

Furthermore it has come to light that two of the Lead developers have been very vocal in the past against Hybrid classes such as the Druid while they were players of the groundbreaking Grandfather of MMOs, Everquest(EQ). Here is some anecdotal and documented information. http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80399311&sid=1... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80398797&sid=1... One poster about Furor: "Furor's had the global-first level 50, a rogue named Kalaran. You can find him reincarnated in Searing Gorge. http://www.goblinworkshop.com/creatur.../kalaran-windblade.html His account however was banned. Rumor at the time had it that he had been transferring bind-on-pickup items from character to character, although Verant never came out and said why. He started a new account pretty much the next day and Furor was born (and level 50 in five days after utilizing a veerrry shady leveling method (nagafen's tooth).

Anyway, Furor is the quest designer. Tigole designs dungeons. Neither have their hand on the tiller of class balance as that is Kalgan. Obviously, they both have enormous access and both have, in prior games, made no secret that they abhor hybrids. Whether they've matured and mellowed, only people who know them can answer...

...If you really want a kick, google some furor rants. There's a great one out there where he absolutely roasts Smedley from SoE basically taunting him about how WoW is going to kick EQ's ass and he can't wait to be a part of it. The guy is from all accounts pleasant in person, but he is an absolute nutter when it comes to online bullying."

If one does a google search one can scrounge up some posts by Furor, one of the developers being criticized,

http://p202.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfrm21.showMessageR... http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=207020702&sid=1... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80499273&sid=1... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80398797&sid=1...

and Tigole the other being criticized. Furthermore Tigole is the actual handle used in the forums by this person to represent Blizzard Entertainment, I should not neglect to say that his last name is Bitties, Tigole Bitties, reverse the T and B. Humorous isn't it(sarcasm).

Tigole Bitties Post 38 http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79221587&sid=1&p...

More information:

http://www.zealguild.org/wiki/index.p.../Paladin_FAQ

"Furor and Tigole, whose names appear frequently in World of Warcraft, are Blizzard game designers.

Furor designs quests, while Tigole is apparently the current design lead. They have no previous game design experience for comparison purposes, but they were very close during their days as Everquest raid guild leaders.

Furor organized server crashes to protest Paladins (and other hybrids, particularly Shadow Knights and Monks), after an Everquest expansion buffed them. His original account was banned from Everquest for his behavior.

Furor was banned from several offsite Everquest fan forums for trolling hybrid melee classes. Paladins were among them, notably here: http://pub148.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfrm21.showMessageR...

Furor responded to pre-release Paladin questions on the Fires of Heaven guild forum by becoming enraged and verbally abusive. Tigole expressed disdain for hybrid classes in some pre-release interviews. Paladins were not mentioned explicitly, but when asked why the Death Knight and Necromancer classes were scrapped, he replied that Blizzard wanted to keep hybrids at a minimum.

Tigole referred to Paladins as "very much a support class" in a 2006 E3 interview. He is quoted as saying "when I'm playing my Shaman, I hate Paladins". The latter quote is frequently taken out of context; people often quote only the second half of this when referencing his E3 interview, found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/spo.../28vide.html?ex=1296104400&en=42c55c3188d54208&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss As of 27 Feb 2006, no current or former CM ever played a Paladin to level 60. The highest level Paladin of a Community Manager was 51: http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-p.../891327.htm

Blizzard has refused to respond to the Druids not only about why their class is being changed so much when they had plenty of time to test it during the beta phase, where they actually had the public, through random invitations, join to participate and give feedback. Nor have they answered to the claims of "Bait and Switch". They also have not given any reply as to the ethical fortitude of their company now that it is in question due to their employment of such persons and characters as Tigole Bitties whose name and association with Furor as well as adamant stance against such hybrid classes as Druids and Furor whom rallied persons to crash servers Sony owned in retaliation for similar issues as Druids that Warriors were having in EQ.

Druids are also having a STAND DOWN protest in light of these events: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80369946&postId=... http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/genera.../tanking-hybrid-and-healing-stand-down/ http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=21;mid=117293526532... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80428889&sid=1... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80369237&sid=1... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80428843&sid=1...

This is truly ironic as the above mentioned developers staged this same Stand Down as posted here: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4109...

Editorial: I would like to think I speak for the Druid community as a whole and for the WoW community when I ask what Blizzard was thinking when hiring these persons. I would also like to question what kind of behavior they expect from their customers when taking into consideration the past and current behavior of their current developers, who still go around on the official forums with those names, as though proud of their past deeds.

I would like to think this because of the numerous cancellation notices on the Druid forums. Note that many have already been deleted. More show up daily. http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80499196&sid=1... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79674404&sid=1... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79674331&sid=1...

We would like to invite Blizzard to open up the doors of communication. I realize there are more important issues in current events than this video game, but keep in mind our children play this game as well, and they WILL mimic what they see here, and may gain some morals, or lack thereof, from this environment, where grown adults and corporations get away with such widely frowned upon practices.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

If you would like to join in this call for decency, use the links below to make your voice heard.

IR email: eileen.mclaughlin@vivendi.com Contact Form http://www.sierra.com/en/home/corpora.../contact.html

Head Offices

New York Office 800 Third Avenue New York, NY 10022 USA Tel.: +1 212 572 7000

Investor Relations:

In New York

Eileen McLAUGHLIN IR Director, US +1.212.572.1334 eileen.mclaughlin@vivendi.com

Vivendi 800 Third Avenue - 4th Floor New York NY 10022, USA +1.212.572.7000"

Honestly...

/Tau Oo

Saha
05-03-2007, 09:07 PM
Heh that explains quite some... Sadly half the links are dead already. Proley blizz trying "clean up" shit... Though there is still quite some info about Tigole and espetialy Furor available...
For example http://p202.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfrm21.showMessageRange?topicID=5 86.topic&start=21&stop=40
It really kinda reminds todays situation in WoW and its no wonder that druids ended up with getting nerfed to the level of being unable to tank raid content when you have such ppl as Furor as one of Blizz designers...

Hammett
05-03-2007, 10:01 PM
nref durids olol

Egminos
06-03-2007, 12:01 AM
now's the right time for the /facepalm guy.

Onkelswe
06-03-2007, 02:00 AM
Im in ur forumpart, reading about ur nerfz!

Saha
06-03-2007, 03:42 AM
Its not really funy;)
Quite an important druid playstyle part is being broken and thrown to our face. For example US forums have thread RIP going on (despite it being deleted several times already) with now 200+ druids names who are canceling accounts or deleting/leaving their druids. Of course one may discuss that half of them will return and stuff like that, but then again you have a large chunk of ppl who quit without reading forums or being already banned from them;) It will have quite severe impact on already the least popular class.
And no, I don't whine. I silently lvl warrior with hope I will have strong enough nerves to go trough same boring lvling process I did 4 times already...

Alverion
06-03-2007, 08:09 AM
Geez, and I thought my small outburst about the patch was bad : b

Some people need to get a grip, i'll still be playing, and I'll still be tanking, and warriors will still be crying nerf ; )

Chopper
06-03-2007, 10:08 AM
and warriors will still be crying nerf ; )

Crying...?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80500567&sid=1

Kinshara
06-03-2007, 10:50 AM
I suspect most warriors(and players of any class in general) are fine with druids having a tanking role. Prot warriors should be the best overall, but not by so much as to make the other two irrelevant; prot paladins and feral druids should be good enough all round, and have their own tanking niche where they are the best.

The nerf does seem too large at present.

Dinmomz
06-03-2007, 02:32 PM
so... you dont think this was just a nerf to the drood bearform pvp abilities that had consequences that blizz didnt think of (a mistake they seem to do quite often in my experience)?
that shite about 2 of their developers (who isnt even working on class dev/balancing) just nerfs hybrid classes because they dont like them sounds a bit improbable...

Because the nerf to pvp bearform was needed, even most druids says so, and imo i just think blizzard was stoopid (again) and didnt think about what they were doing for droodtanking. I for one think that they will fix it somehow, altho it will probably take quite a while... going on previous experiences again.

Saha
06-03-2007, 05:51 PM
so... you dont think this was just a nerf to the drood bearform pvp abilities that had consequences that blizz didnt think of (a mistake they seem to do quite often in my experience)?
that shite about 2 of their developers (who isnt even working on class dev/balancing) just nerfs hybrid classes because they dont like them sounds a bit improbable...

Because the nerf to pvp bearform was needed, even most druids says so, and imo i just think blizzard was stoopid (again) and didnt think about what they were doing for droodtanking. I for one think that they will fix it somehow, altho it will probably take quite a while... going on previous experiences again.

Of course that isn't influence by only those 2 persons. Would be too naive to state so:)
But lets get things straight. Does the fact that bear tanking gear ends with 5 mans and blue craftables does not right the bell?
Druids were ment to tank 5 mans during most of players leveling process due to fact warriors tend to go fury/arms for lvling hence, cripling tanking quality and situation for groups. After that... We are no longer needed as tanks when raiding content starts. No decent tanking gear in random epix as well as t4 and t5 quite hints on that. Now also a severe nerf with blue stating we are "fill in tanks". Yeah, after half a year they will proley introduce some threat fix. After another half a year they will go live with some instance like AQ40 in the past- heaven for ferals. Thanx, I had enough of that crap:)

Orde
06-03-2007, 06:00 PM
Druids r overpowers nerf k? gg next customer please, Warriors need a buff you say? okay buffing warriors gg .. next ..

- Orde

Stabstalker
06-03-2007, 07:33 PM
hahha 6 hours left you stupid druids! PREPARE FOR NERF BAT! :D

Moomonde
06-03-2007, 08:49 PM
hahha 6 hours left you stupid druids! PREPARE FOR NERF BAT! :D

I just really really really don't understand how someone could have the time to go onto this site, read at least the topic title and type that out...

Wartauren
06-03-2007, 09:24 PM
It's stabs, don't take him seriously. He's just happy that he'll return too being the most overpowered class! :rolleyes:

Kinshara
06-03-2007, 09:44 PM
*Awaits world of roguecraft -1*

Talsin
06-03-2007, 11:17 PM
hotfix after live patch incoming

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79628116&sid=1&pageNo=1

There are a couple of other things that are being added today and once we have the go ahead on the exact information we'll let you all know about it.

Just to edit this in, there are a couple of hotfixes that are being put in that should address a couple of the concerns that players have expressed.


No, they aren't nerfs. Once we have the exact wording on the changes being added in, we'll post them in the sticky. These changes are being made as a direct result of player feedback.

Saha
07-03-2007, 02:02 AM
Two new hotfixes have been applied in regards to the Druid class, which can been seen in our Hot Fix thread in General. They've also been added to the 2.0.10 patch notes sticky.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79628008&sid=1

The Druid ability Mangle now generates 50% bonus threat.

The Druid ability Lacerate now deals a small amount of instant damage, generating threat, against bleed immune creatures.

Blue post@http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80502747&sid=1

Now that has just dropped my jaw:D Of course first question is... what is the actual amount of threat generated by lacerate- is it threat purely from dmg or like debuff threat it has on bleeding mobs.
Anyways... These 2 hotfixes are things I have wanted to be done and actualy have already mentioned that before in this thread. Think I will not be lvling my warrior that actively anymore:D Can't wait for tomorows morning to start testing it:D

EDIT: even more stuff:

In addition, we examined concerns about the best Feral Druid armor pieces being outdoor world quest rewards, and Druids feeling their tanking ability would not scale with better gear. We are adjusting superior and epic leather pieces designed to be used by Bear Druids and increasing the armor on many of those items, particularly raid sets. These changes, however, will not show up until patch 2.1.0.


I take all my bad words I dropped @Blizzard during last few days and crawl back to by warm fur form:D

Dinmomz
07-03-2007, 02:14 AM
very good news indeed :)

Kinshara
07-03-2007, 08:53 AM
Great news, especially the lacerate and itemization stuff.

Alverion
07-03-2007, 09:29 AM
Crying...?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80500567&sid=1

I was trying to go for a joking sort of tone : (

soulshift
07-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Warriors always cry. They cry when they have to tank, they cry when they're being outtanked, they cry when it rains, they cry when the sun shines and they cry when they have no more reasons to cry. It's true! :<

Chopper
07-03-2007, 10:58 AM
Druids always cry. They cry when they have to heal, they cry about tanking requiring a bit more skill and effort now, they cry about needing to shapeshift mid-fight in pvp, they cry when it rains, they cry when the sun shines and they cry when they have no more reasons to cry. It's true! :<

edit:
Just read about the Mangle/Lacerate hotfix. Good news indeed. :)

@Alv: So was I, you silly bear.

Talsin
07-03-2007, 12:53 PM
Did a very quick run to try and determine the new threat caused by the damage of lacerate prior to the bleed effect. Here are the test conditions and results:

The mob used were rock elementals in Nagrand. For this purpose, I ran up to one and lacerated once (an autoattack always slips in). Then, my fiancee (sorry to put you through this babe) tried to pull it off me using a lower rank of moonfire. This was done in melee range so only 110% of threat was required to pull.

Autoattack hit for 269 - 390 threat
Lacerate hit for 24

Moonfire hits for 138
Moonfire ticks for 56x4
Moonfire hits for 138
Moonfire ticks for 56x4
Moonfire hits for 138
Moonfire ticks for 55 - mob aggros

At 841 damage the mob remained on me, at 896 it switched to her. This range is 110% of my threat, which means:

764 < threat by autoattack + lacerate < 814

Subtracting the 390 threat from the autoattack (269*1.45 due to 3/3 feral instinct), this gives us:

Frontloaded lacerate threat is between 374 and 424

For comparison to swipe (which we'd be using in place of lacerate as a rage dump)

Swipe hits these mobs for 141, crits for 311 in my gear (1286AP, 24.5% crit, 5/5 Predatory Instincts)

So the average threat caused by swipe (rounding to 25% crit) is [(141*3)+311]/4 = 183.5*1.45 = 266

Conclusion: Lacerate on single targets that are immune to bleed does around 400 threat, which represents a large gain over swipe on single targets.

Issues to be further examined (by somebody else): Effects of armor, AP, mangle debuff, etc.

Your friendly druid,
Labrat



taken from blizz forums for lacerate threat

Saha
07-03-2007, 01:06 PM
Yeah have run some short tests with ralph on eles in nagrand. Lacerate on bleed imune mobs does 350-400 threat pre modifiers (bear from and talents) which puts lacerate into sunders league. Slightly better tps wise and a bit worse tpr.

Dinmomz
07-03-2007, 06:58 PM
cant say ive had much experience at tanking with a teddy but i just did most of a mechanar run (last boss was a no go because of server shutdown) and i didnt have too much problems. For me its feels like beeing back in to the time when warrior tanking was mostly spam sunder armor so i feel right at home :p

i actually felt i did get more threat now than before... but then again i didnt get enough before this patch

soulshift
07-03-2007, 07:09 PM
Druids always cry. They cry when they have to heal, they cry about tanking requiring a bit more skill and effort now, they cry about needing to shapeshift mid-fight in pvp, they cry when it rains, they cry when the sun shines and they cry when they have no more reasons to cry. It's true! :<


I like you alot less now. :(

Saha
07-03-2007, 07:11 PM
cant say ive had much experience at tanking with a teddy but i just did most of a mechanar run (last boss was a no go because of server shutdown) and i didnt have too much problems. For me its feels like beeing back in to the time when warrior tanking was mostly spam sunder armor so i feel right at home :p

i actually felt i did get more threat now than before... but then again i didnt get enough before this patch

Technicaly, threat generation on bleed imune mobs should have increased a little bit with this patch while threat on bleeding mobs decreased a bit. Only time will show if it is well balanced, but it is huge step in right direction IMHO.

Taurusos
07-03-2007, 07:25 PM
And how goes multitanking?

/Tau

soulshift
07-03-2007, 09:35 PM
It's fine, just a bit more effort than it used to be but it's fine.

Saha
07-03-2007, 11:20 PM
Well considering I was using swipe only in situations as rage dump on bleed imune mobs... Multimobs tanking is same as 1 target tanking- easier on bleed imune and a bit harder on bleeding. Nothing really changed much. Smash buttons and switch targets fast enough and you're fine.
Loosing 1.5k hp and close to 2k armor hurts, but I can live with that as long as I can generate enough agro, just gear will need some minor adjustment=) Was tanking with tog in kara today... Well I can't steal agro as easy as I did before, its more fair fight now:)

Talsin
08-03-2007, 08:32 AM
Yeah, its just mashing buttons a lot more, and switching targets more, which unfortunatly means you have to shout at the sleeping dps, to watch what target they are hitting instead of nuking the current target.
for the rest its certainly doable pve wise. allthough dps really took a severe blow.