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Manidim
07-02-2007, 04:11 PM
Sooo, I would love some suggestions on a Hemo spec in TBC, im kind of lost in the Hemo matter, never specced it before.

Stabstalker
07-02-2007, 05:29 PM
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?3053001050301000000000000000000000000 000000005002431002311213501150

Manidim
07-02-2007, 05:39 PM
lovely :D

Gumdrops
07-02-2007, 07:56 PM
Ewwww.. Use www.wowhead.com!

Über
07-02-2007, 08:09 PM
Ewwww.. Use www.wowhead.com!

Indeed. And for the builds, two suggestions. Choose the one that rocks your boat the most.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0oxZhZxMjorhRoxst for some shadowstepping.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0oxGoizZhZxMjoGhRo for some kombopoint madness.

You might wanna move some points from setup to master of subtlety, depending what you prefer. Both builds are somewhat pvp builds but that kinda comes with the hemo, for me atleast it always did. :)

beastrider
07-02-2007, 08:39 PM
Why would you want shadowstep as hemo?

Hammett
07-02-2007, 09:12 PM
It's still a very good talent, you see. Atleast for pvp its brilliant, even if you are hemo swords.

Hammett
07-02-2007, 09:14 PM
I would go for http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iGe0oxooZhZxoeoGhRsxoo

I just love cold blood, it's fucking good :P

beastrider
07-02-2007, 09:17 PM
Sure, it's fine to be able to do, but i'd see it useless compeared to coldblood.

Hammett
07-02-2007, 09:25 PM
Well...true :P but the vanish - shadowstep combo is still brilliant if casters try to escape ^^

Manidim
07-02-2007, 09:43 PM
Still prefer Stabstalkers, works lovely in both PvE and PvP

Hammett
07-02-2007, 09:44 PM
Hemo in pve? Kklol

Hammett
07-02-2007, 09:46 PM
...and how does Stabbies work more in pve than mine does :P /defend post

Manidim
07-02-2007, 10:10 PM
/kill snotty little kid!

Hammett
07-02-2007, 10:13 PM
/vanish /sap /flee /rofl

Meri
08-02-2007, 12:32 AM
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?3050201000000000000000053000000000000 000000005002531030311213501051

Shadowstep+Garrote is great against both casting mobs and casting players. That 3 second silence means 3 seconds that they wont blink/fear/skillcoil.
Cold Blood is kinda useless, as you should be using Rupture as finisher. Rupture deals unmitigated damage almost equal to perfect talented evis crits, and tons of people just don't know how to handle bleeds, still the improved evis talent is there for a final finisher, just relying on coldblood for it is kinda meh. (you can digup numbers in rogue forums how much more rupture and to lesser extend garrote benefit from AP than Evis)
Setup, now that it actually works, builds up extra combopoints. As I see the whole idea of the Hemo/Rupture build to be about no idle time, ie. no waiting for energy to build up. Relentless strikes ofcource compliments that very well.
Finally improved slice and dice ups your white damage output tremendously without the need to waste too many combopoints on it; and like the improved evis talent it gives you extra versatility.

An ideal ambush would be, premed, shadowstep, garrote, hemo, rupture, few more hemo, stun, and by the time you can pretty much run and leave em to bleed like stuck pigs. Sometimes they even try to bandage. -_-

Stabstalker
08-02-2007, 02:58 AM
you dont fucking gank with garrote rupture rofl...

Fintan
08-02-2007, 03:30 AM
Stoneform and Plate > Ideal Ambush.

Orde
08-02-2007, 04:33 AM
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?3050201000000000000000053000000000000 000000005002531030311213501051

Shadowstep+Garrote is great against both casting mobs and casting players. That 3 second silence means 3 seconds that they wont blink/fear/skillcoil.
Cold Blood is kinda useless, as you should be using Rupture as finisher. Rupture deals unmitigated damage almost equal to perfect talented evis crits, and tons of people just don't know how to handle bleeds, still the improved evis talent is there for a final finisher, just relying on coldblood for it is kinda meh. (you can digup numbers in rogue forums how much more rupture and to lesser extend garrote benefit from AP than Evis)
Setup, now that it actually works, builds up extra combopoints. As I see the whole idea of the Hemo/Rupture build to be about no idle time, ie. no waiting for energy to build up. Relentless strikes ofcource compliments that very well.
Finally improved slice and dice ups your white damage output tremendously without the need to waste too many combopoints on it; and like the improved evis talent it gives you extra versatility.

An ideal ambush would be, premed, shadowstep, garrote, hemo, rupture, few more hemo, stun, and by the time you can pretty much run and leave em to bleed like stuck pigs. Sometimes they even try to bandage. -_-


Best spec i have worked with being a daggers rogue for lvling and pvp has to be Assasination http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihefoxzsizEoZE is what im working with atm but i guess your spec is good for 60-64 but if you want to go pvp now and then in spare time my spec works better,bleeding is just lazy anywho:P

Hammett
08-02-2007, 03:26 PM
Damn forum rollback! Just written craploads about how shite garrote and rupture is, and you should never use it!

Manidim
08-02-2007, 03:50 PM
okey, 3rd time i post this now, Garrote is nice against some, it all depends on how the rogue is used to act beating the specific class. Rupture and evis can be used in the same fight when you are Hemo, as the combo point generation is sufficient for providing at least 8 combo points inside the first 8 seconds of the fight.

Hammett
08-02-2007, 04:28 PM
Lies! Burn the heretic!

Meri
08-02-2007, 05:32 PM
Simple maths, with improved Rupture (which is prereq for Hemo), you do more damage at level 70 against anything with more than 20% armor mitigation than even with crit Evisc. This due to Rupture getting a much more significant boost from AP than Evisc.
Same holds true to slightly lesser extent to Garrote. Ofc if your class knowledge is limited to tooltips you might've missed it. -_-
When you factor in the lesser energy costs it should be a total nobrainer. In fact if you're not using bleeds, you're better off sticking with the combat tree goodies and SS.

Manidim
08-02-2007, 06:09 PM
Well, sure, you can use bleeders against warriors, but against mages, where evis can crit at about 2800-3k, i think that the choice is easy

Hammett
08-02-2007, 06:12 PM
My class knowledge is not "Limited to tooltips", Meri. I also know that in pvp, which we were discussing, rupture is absolutely crap for anything else than rogues, to prevent them from stealth.

And yes, you can rupture kite warriors, in DUELS. You wont have the time to rupture kite anything in a battleground.

End of discussion.

Manidim
08-02-2007, 06:41 PM
My class knowledge is not "Limited to tooltips", Meri. I also know that in pvp, which we were discussing, rupture is absolutely crap for anything else than rogues, to prevent them from stealth.

And yes, you can rupture kite warriors, in DUELS. You wont have the time to rupture kite anything in a battleground.

End of discussion.

Meri actually has a point Hammett, but it's all the choice of the player, you kill the class the way you know you can pull it off.

Meri
08-02-2007, 07:07 PM
Well, sure, you can use bleeders against warriors, but against mages, where evis can crit at about 2800-3k, i think that the choice is easy

Warriors, Lolis, Shammies, Hunters, Priests, Rogues and Druids: for various reasons, but usually because you simply do more damage. Even against Mages and Locks Evisc only does more when you crit. (assuming the rogue has at least semi-decent AP)

The most important points are energy efficiency, continuous damage preventing them from bandage if feared/sheeped/novad, stunned, etc. , and unpredictability. Someone who has the edge on you gear or skill wise will beat the standard methods. Hell the Welshman even said that 2 years ago, a predictable rogue is a dead rogue.

And if this is just about pvp you can cheese Ambush/weaponswitch cb evisc for 3 minute rogue, or Adrenaline Rush + Prep. You do realize that with premed+shadowstep+garrote+ hemo+rupture you've given them a upwards of 600 per tick bleeder before they even know whats happened to them, and you have your energy bar full or close to it. Compared to what? CS+hemo+evisc->CC, bandage to full=dead rogue.

My build also does great in PvE, sologrind, instancing, even raids (unless you want to sacrifice all viability for a silly raidspec for few more % of damage..re: combatdaggers *puke*) Variety and versatility for win.

Orde
08-02-2007, 07:37 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihefoxMsizEohZE00o

Great for both pvp and pve...but Meri's does seem good for a hemo spec.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0xf0xZMZE0eohhRoxst good to though.

Über
08-02-2007, 08:03 PM
Those builds are *really* something I can't understand, I mean even the reasoning behind them.. The weirdest choice ever: Improved Sinister Strike with daggers.

Meri
08-02-2007, 08:09 PM
Improved SS with dagger builds is prolly leftover from when 2/2 SS and 3/3 gouge was needed to get Improved backstab. :P
Daggers however is awful for grinding in Outlands due to the goddamn mobs resisting gouges and stuns half of the time. D:

Orde
08-02-2007, 09:02 PM
Those builds are *really* something I can't understand, I mean even the reasoning behind them.. The weirdest choice ever: Improved Sinister Strike with daggers.


Yeah had some points left over.

Über
08-02-2007, 09:10 PM
Why not use them in something usefull then? ANYTHING else would have been more usefull than that. :D

Hammett
08-02-2007, 09:17 PM
What i mean is...

Yeah ok maybe its decent, But meri, tell me a thing...if you need to kill someone fast, and move on the next clothie in pvp, you would never kill them slowly with bleed effects. You would, as hemo, or i would Preme > Cheap Shot > Evis / kidney...

lets say you do the Preme > garrotte > rupture combo you suggest, after the rupture the warlock would simply turn around, and deathcoil you after the tiny silence. You're simply not getting enough points in for a stunlock if you use them on mediocore bleed effects.

Orde
08-02-2007, 09:35 PM
Why not use them in something usefull then? ANYTHING else would have been more usefull than that. :D

I guess hehe,i have a weird thing about not filling boxes till there full xD

Meri
09-02-2007, 12:17 AM
What i mean is...

Yeah ok maybe its decent, But meri, tell me a thing...if you need to kill someone fast, and move on the next clothie in pvp, you would never kill them slowly with bleed effects. You would, as hemo, or i would Preme > Cheap Shot > Evis / kidney...

lets say you do the Preme > garrotte > rupture combo you suggest, after the rupture the warlock would simply turn around, and deathcoil you after the tiny silence. You're simply not getting enough points in for a stunlock if you use them on mediocore bleed effects.

Well, using Garrote and Rupture instead of CS+Evis you save 25 energy, and also are ahead of the curve for getting 25 more energy from relentless strikes from the 2nd 5 pointer. In any case it worked wonderfully for me in beta against pretty much all classes. Got mages to use their Iceblock prematurely, got palas to bubble before I had used any cooldowns etc. And well, at least against mages CS is complete waste, they just blink out of it.
And about moving to the next clothie fast, sounds organized, as in battlegrounds. I've found that fighting in the world pvp objectives isnt quite as straightforward. Also I'd hardly ever move to the next target before regaining stealth, and I use Vanish as emergency save or to turn the tables in tough fights, not to get to stealth after a kill, or a kill that will happen in the next few ticks.
Cealinan is right though, what works for me, might not work for you, but I've found that bleeds worked better than I ever could've imagined, in grinding, in instancing and even in pvp.

Orde
09-02-2007, 05:07 AM
Sounds good actually gonna go respec hehe

Slicer
09-02-2007, 09:58 AM
I'm one of the people who only ever uses rupture on rogues... but then I'm also dagger specced and doing so any other time would some what limit my gouge. I suppose for hemo rogues it's doable, though you would have less control in the fight. There's also the problem of using it in duels - if you try rupture kiting and that person goes out of combat then that rupture ain't doing a whole lot except from stopping them recharging HP, not losing it.

I'm yet to try messing around with the new garrote, but once again, for battleground pvp uses it just doesn't kill stuff fast enough. Having never been hemo, nor even swords / maces for well over a year and a half, I have no idea why I'm writing this...

Ah well, posting when you just woke up wins.

AnteroVipune
09-02-2007, 10:27 AM
Meh. Just a matter of preference.
Bleed-speccs work better now in TBC thanks to higher stamina and longer fights, but there's no reason to deny the importance of burst damage too.

Just play with a damn specc you enjoy and that fits your playsyle the best.

Hammett
09-02-2007, 11:58 AM
Agreed ^^

Meri
09-02-2007, 03:23 PM
Nore: I wouldn't spec hemo or bleeds for dagger rogue since daggers is about ambush, stab, gouge, stab, stun, stab, etc. :P

Über
09-02-2007, 03:33 PM
Good point to make even though it is quite obvious to the majority. The amount of ppl you see spamming ss or hemo with daggers is killing me. :P

Abberare
09-02-2007, 04:57 PM
I always take imp. SS when I spec combat, It used to come in handy for when you needed combo points in a hurry (before shiv), it's handy when you have to solo/tank mobs that are immune to gouge & stun and 2% dodge can easily be gotten from gear (Plus that's more chance to get overpowered by Warriors in pvp).

It does seem pointless in the spec Orde posted though, but then I don't understand what that's supposed to be for.

Über
09-02-2007, 05:06 PM
I always take imp. SS when I spec combat, It used to come in handy for when you needed combo points in a hurry (before shiv), it's handy when you have to solo/tank mobs that are immune to gouge & stun and 2% dodge can easily be gotten from gear (Plus that's more chance to get overpowered by Warriors in pvp).

It does seem pointless in the spec Orde posted though, but then I don't understand what that's supposed to be for.

That's one exception to the rule (second would be mutilatespec), mainly 'cos the other choice after getting 3/3 to imp gouge would be one of the worst rogue talents, real selfownager against warriors, the dreaded Lightning Reflexes. :D
Ofcourse deep daggercombat builds are mainly used for raidingspecs only but assuming that you do will do some occasional pvp or farm for some pots or stuff then the imp. ss will be the filler to get access to the second talent tier.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0gcoLZGcEzMEz0M0otV for example.

Temmink
10-02-2007, 01:20 PM
That's one exception to the rule (second would be mutilatespec), mainly 'cos the other choice after getting 3/3 to imp gouge would be one of the worst rogue talents, real selfownager against warriors, the dreaded Lightning Reflexes. :D


I never get this. Wouldn't dodging a mortal strike be way way better than eating an overpower?

Gumdrops
10-02-2007, 01:49 PM
The amount of ppl you see spamming ss or hemo with daggers is killing me. :P

lol chronolink

Thordyn
10-02-2007, 01:54 PM
The amount of ppl you see spamming ss or hemo with daggers is killing me. :P

lol chronolink
TO ME YOU ARE LIKE TRICKERY: OWNED!!!11!11

Jonneh
10-02-2007, 01:58 PM
That's one exception to the rule (second would be mutilatespec), mainly 'cos the other choice after getting 3/3 to imp gouge would be one of the worst rogue talents, real selfownager against warriors, the dreaded Lightning Reflexes. :D


I never get this. Wouldn't dodging a mortal strike be way way better than eating an overpower?

Not really, considering most arms warriors will have picked up improved overpower giving it additional 50% chance to crit.

About rogues using a dagger hemo build, I saw a hemo specced rogue with thunderfury as his mainhand :P

Über
10-02-2007, 02:55 PM
Aye indeed, and it goes especially for MS specced warriors (like in the example given) since they are specced for pvp so they most probably got improved overpower aswell. Just pop evasion against a MS specced warrior if you want to test it yourself, and prepare to get overpowered. :wink:

Reason
10-02-2007, 04:20 PM
The mentality generally is that there's a pretty high chance we're going to get overpowered at least once anyhow, since most rogues have an inherently high dodge chance. So we use evasion, eat the inevitable OPs, and hopefully dodge the rest of the attack. There's no question that an OP crit from an Arms warrior can hurt like hell, but an OP crit plus a WW and MS hurts even more. Not a foolproof plan, by any means though.

Also, by encouraging a warrior to shift into Battle Stance, he's potentially more vulnerable to our control abilities. Not that that's much comfort for taking an OP crit, but it does shift the fight slightly.

Temmink
11-02-2007, 02:39 AM
Aye indeed, and it goes especially for MS specced warriors (like in the example given) since they are specced for pvp so they most probably got improved overpower aswell. Just pop evasion against a MS specced warrior if you want to test it yourself, and prepare to get overpowered. :wink:

if a rogue uses evasion nothing hits (crits) except overpower basicly. you really don't win with just that.

Über
12-02-2007, 08:30 AM
Well, everyone has their own strategies against other classes depending on builds, level of the gear and so on but I certainly haven't ever seen evasion as a Iwin button against MS-specced warriors.. :?

Fingers
19-02-2007, 07:01 PM
I've tried a hemo/bleed build with swords - it's actually really powerful to combine it with the poison talents from the Assassination tree...

Garrotte + 5stack of DP + 5p Rupture is a LOT of DoT damage - and it can all be applied while your target is stunned (if the mob is stunnable).

Being primarily PvE, I've respecced so many times it hurts - in testing what builds work well, and what don't. I'm beginning to realise that a strong combat build is by FAR the best build for PvE (swords that is). Hemo works well in PvP, but I'm finding it does quite a bit less PvE damage, especially against bosses on fights > 2 minutes.

(ps. I used to have Thunderfury as MH with the Hemo build - pre-TBC ofc) ;)

Hongten
19-02-2007, 07:07 PM
Well, everyone has their own strategies against other classes depending on builds, level of the gear and so on but I certainly haven't ever seen evasion as a Iwin button against MS-specced warriors.. :?
Basic Strategy:

1) Premed -> Garrote -> Shiv -> 5 CP Rupture (A 3500 DOT that ignores his armor completely)
2) Vanish -> CS -> BS -> CB Evis
3) Evasion tank him and just eat the overpowers, it puts him into battle stance anyway which means he can not break gouge/sap.
4) Blind -> (restealth between DOT tick -> sap if you have DOTs on yourself) -> Bandage
5) Restealth -> CS -> BS -> Evis, do whatever you want, even with 10K HP and life gem he should be dead at this point.

(с) Ming
http://www.worldofming.com/?p=371&page=2


still a question
What does it mean:
"try to bug his intercept"?

Über
19-02-2007, 07:12 PM
Well, that hardly states that the evasion there is the Iwin-button.. But then again the tactics after the opening pretty much come & go when reacting on the warriors moves, to his stances etc.
For example you can sap the warrior in quite a early state of the fight with 3/3 imp gouge and 4(atleast)/5 in camouflage, taking some distance and restealthing without having to use vanish. Helps quite some bit giving you still a chance to vanish twice if needed with that build you mentioned in the example strategy.

Oh, and the "try to bug his intercept" means just sprinting and taking the intercept,which will prolly be a buggy one, and the warrior just stuns you but stays outside of the meleerange and can't hit you before you continue sprinting.
That's how it went with my warrior atleast, way too many times. (There's also ways to move when sprinting which can help the intercept to bug.)

Flawless
20-02-2007, 02:53 PM
Well, everyone has their own strategies against other classes depending on builds, level of the gear and so on but I certainly haven't ever seen evasion as a Iwin button against MS-specced warriors.. :?
Basic Strategy:

1) Premed -> Garrote -> Shiv -> 5 CP Rupture (A 3500 DOT that ignores his armor completely)
2) Vanish -> CS -> BS -> CB Evis
3) Evasion tank him and just eat the overpowers, it puts him into battle stance anyway which means he can not break gouge/sap.
4) Blind -> (restealth between DOT tick -> sap if you have DOTs on yourself) -> Bandage
5) Restealth -> CS -> BS -> Evis, do whatever you want, even with 10K HP and life gem he should be dead at this point.

(с) Ming
http://www.worldofming.com/?p=371&page=2


still a question
What does it mean:
"try to bug his intercept"?

what, a warrior stays in battle stance even tho OP has a damn CD?

and the intercept bug is if we have a slow on us and use intercept we will not end up where you are, and rather some ways behind him.

Hammett
20-02-2007, 09:03 PM
Ming is dire imo...but aight, i guess it's ok..i usually just deal with prot warriors by letting em bleed to death without touching them until dot is dead :P

Fingers
21-02-2007, 08:07 AM
I've gone back to combat (again) after deciding that you actually do (finally) need every ounce of DPS you can squeeze out of your build (without pulling aggro ofc).

bye bye Hemo build /cry

syranndyr
21-02-2007, 02:30 PM
Well, everyone has their own strategies against other classes depending on builds, level of the gear and so on but I certainly haven't ever seen evasion as a Iwin button against MS-specced warriors.. :?

If you haven't seen it as an i-win button I'm guessing you must actually stop attacking once you've turned your evasion on..

I'm suprised people haven't brought up itemisation issues, since Hemo (while not limited for its utility) is limited for its damage by the weapon speeds, the lack of strong 2.8/2.9 speed weapons means you're significantly dropping your base hemo values.

I don't know how you can say Ming is dire though, he is intensely over-rated by a lot of people but he generally does know how to play and understands game mechanics well. At any rate he's far from Chronolink standard.

Imp. SS in a dagger build talent is pretty much there for situation's where you're forced into SS'ing but its all nonsense since the only time you're realistically forced into SS'ing is pve.

The amount of rogue's I can just plain ignore in PVP on my shaman is comical, not because rogue's in general are bad but just because of plainly bad poison choices and not ever kicking and stunning past the first time.

Über
21-02-2007, 03:19 PM
Sounds like more to me that you simply got quite a different definition to a Iwin-button. Seems like anything that helps you in someway can be called a Iwin-button but I'd use the term in situations like, let's say rogue's CloS against some casters or a 3min mage's pompyro instawin.

Sure if you got a nice amount of stamina and eating one overpower, or two in the worst case, won't cause much trouble to you evasion is quite useful. I'm just saying it's not that essential part of fighting against a warrior that everything would depend on it.

And for the imp ss build.. Just check Orde's link to the build which I commented on and then come back and see if you still disagree with me. :D
Then again if you were one of those rogues mentioned earlier in this thread who spam ss & hemo with daggers.. :wink:

AnteroVipune
24-02-2007, 09:53 AM
Imo Imp SS isnt any longer needed or what ever in dagger builds. Shiv pretty much freed those 2 points to be used........in dodge.

Oof
03-03-2007, 09:37 PM
With resilience rating atm and low crit. Daggers will become darf. So for now i can stay daggers but then Hemo or Combat is the thing to do. U'll see :p