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Stim
04-02-2007, 06:41 AM
Ok, pawned by feral druids all over the Eye of Storm, Mortal Strike is not so mortal. Best score is druid at 35% hp. Got any suggestions? 'Cuz right now it's makes me wanna mount when I see a drood in bg :(

Orde
04-02-2007, 07:21 AM
Yeah, no suggestions but i agree druids are a pretty scary class to deal with atm.

Aredhel
04-02-2007, 02:08 PM
About time really. After two years we finally work!

Robinvi
04-02-2007, 02:14 PM
Ho ho ho

About paladins start working! :<

:D

Stim
04-02-2007, 02:52 PM
Bah, I'd rather fight holy/prot pala than dire feral wtfness. In fact every single drood I hit in melee turns into bear... Polymorph axe on me, k lael?
later edit: ok, now I see clearly, my purpose is to execute people with <20% hp! :D
and executor build http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMxdhi0MMZVVzuMxRbZf :lol:

Tsarina
04-02-2007, 04:12 PM
About time really. After two years we finally work!
That's not working, you idiot. That's a hugebalance flaw. A druid beating a warrior 1 on 1, sure. But not in bear form from start to finish.


later edit: ok, now I see clearly, my purpose is to execute people with <20% hp! :D
and executor build http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMxdhi0MMZVVzuMxRbZf :lol:
Before I comment on that build, did you mean it as a joke?

Stim
04-02-2007, 04:18 PM
Before I comment on that build, did you mean it as a joke? hope so :(

Astroth
05-02-2007, 01:19 PM
Druids work at last as they always should have. Problem is warriors need major buffage.

Mojo
05-02-2007, 01:34 PM
No

Flawless
06-02-2007, 03:37 PM
Well, I could start by changing your build, I mean what the hell is that? ><

Do you even get a person <20% yourself? :S

Ysabella
06-02-2007, 03:42 PM
Anyone who play solo in the BGs die, regardless of class.

Flawless
06-02-2007, 03:49 PM
Yes yes, that was beside the point of my post his build just sucks itself, he could do a hell of alot better with another build.

I was talking about him 1vs1 would he even get close to 20%

Ysabella
06-02-2007, 04:05 PM
lol, I was adressing the OP who seem to focus more on what enemies he can see than the positioning of the player on his own team.

I don't know anything about warrior-specs, but surely a sucky spec won't make it easier helping your team win.

Ethoria
06-02-2007, 04:52 PM
Warriors are having a rough time against druids in bear now. Beat them down... change to bear, it´s over (for the warrior).

Meri
06-02-2007, 04:55 PM
About time really. After two years we finally work!
That's not working, you idiot. That's a hugebalance flaw. A druid beating a warrior 1 on 1, sure. But not in bear form from start to finish.


Shush with the idiots. :P I tend to agree feral forms finally work. Warriors of all kinds however really don't. They're far far too dependent on healers its stupid. Possibly its an unfixable issue caused by the rage mechanic. In any case Warriors need major buffage, but in the same time some fix so that they don't become totally uber when supported by healing harem.

Orde
06-02-2007, 05:05 PM
I personally thought druids didn't need a buff atleast not in the feral tree only thought the talent tree needed to be tidied up alittle,thought im not exactly sure how druids were buffed but there bear form seems to take alot of punishment or maybe it was always able to do that if anyone could enlighten me on that subject i would be grateful of course aslong as its not in a patronising manner:)

Ysabella said: Anyone who play solo in the BGs die, regardless of class.

Tell that to Ashen hehe :P anyone who plays in a BG dies,regardless of class unless ofc you are actually avoiding all the pvp but thats cheating lol.

Chonar
06-02-2007, 05:20 PM
Well to put it in simple terms (and allow it to be heavily influenced by my opinion..).

The druid's bear form is the druid's "warrior-mode". Like cat is his rogue-mode and humanoid his priest-mode. As a hybrid, it isn't supposed to be on par with warriors. In equal gear and with equal skill, a druid isnt supposed to outheal a priest, or outdamage a warrior or rogue. (or erm.. out-damage-soak a warrior?)

But they do!

Nref nref nref.

The problem of course, how do you compare a druid specced for bear, to a warrior specced for damage?

Hmm.. carry the one, divide the seven..

Orde
06-02-2007, 05:27 PM
Well to put it in simple terms (and allow it to be heavily influenced by my opinion..).

The druid's bear form is the druid's "warrior-mode". Like cat is his rogue-mode and humanoid his priest-mode. As a hybrid, it isn't supposed to be on par with warriors. In equal gear and with equal skill, a druid isnt supposed to outheal a priest, or outdamage a warrior or rogue. (or erm.. out-damage-soak a warrior?)

But they do!

Nref nref nref.

The problem of course, how do you compare a druid specced for bear, to a warrior specced for damage?

Hmm.. carry the one, divide the seven..

Oh,but they have a lack of pve toys as a downfall no,they can't tank aswell as a warrior apparently and they can't res masses of people like a priest can,thought it still sounds like they should be nerfed if a feral specced druid can take a dmg specced warrior arms/fury i would guess without having to change form.

Kinshara
06-02-2007, 06:08 PM
The druid's bear form is the druid's "warrior-mode". Like cat is his rogue-mode and humanoid his priest-mode. As a hybrid, it isn't supposed to be on par with warriors. In equal gear and with equal skill, a druid isnt supposed to outheal a priest, or outdamage a warrior or rogue. (or erm.. out-damage-soak a warrior?)

But they do!

Nref nref nref.

Given the original description, that the forms (given appropriate talents/gear) were supposed to be as powerful as the "parent" class but not as flexible, they are supposed to be on par with class X for a given role. Whether this is a good idea, I don't know... much of the recent whining I've seen stems from the feral tree providing for both the warrior and rogue forms at the same time, whereas the other classes have much more obvious focus on one area; I've not seen too much whining about balance or restoration.

Case in point: for my guild on bloodhoof, I had my (prot) paladin serve as a tank for the 5 mans while levelling. For a while. I found prot to be great for the tanking duty, but very slow while levelling. The other MT for the guild, a feral druid, had plenty of damage in cat form to back it up when soloing. Didn't help that he's a student when I'm not, of course, but even when we were on at the same time he tore ahead of me. Respecced ret, let him tank it all for us. (Our warrior decided to level his mage instead.) Kind of annoyed me that one tree covers it all from grinding to 5 man spot to potential raid position. (Yes, I do have a druid on SS. Not played her recently.)



(Part 2, more rambling semi-coherent thoughts)

I'm not sure what people mean when they say out-X'd sometimes. Many of the healing comparisons priests have posted recently have just focused on the amount of healing done, which doesn't necessarily mean X is a better healer than Y... but there's much more to it than just the raw amount done. Timing it just right, or healing the entire group rather than just a single person, for example. Priests might not be more powerful than druids on the whole, but they sure as hell have many more tools (especially in TBC) when healing.

Same with tanking -- I found myself wanting the warrior tools on my paladin; although I could take the damage, there were some close spikes that caused avoidable wipes; there were times I lost aggro due to fear or gouge, or having two people pull aggro at the same time. The druid has had the same problems in tanking overall -- while we can do it, we lack the tools to cover everything you might want to when instancing. (I have actually rolled a Draenai warrior for this purpose now.) So while a druid does have the mitigation and avoidance and basic aggroholding abilities, they can't out-tank a warrior still. It does require more effort to tank in 5 mans with a warrior though, and I've found I quite enjoy it.

Rogue vs cat... maim/mangle seemed to close the gap, at least for soloing and some parts of pvp. You can't sustain a stunlock as long as a rogue, but you can get close enough to take down a clothie fairly often. Damage in 5 mans is about the same, damage vs. raid bosses rogue is ahead slightly. Not sure what to make of it right now, though rogues still have better aggro control.

Slicer
06-02-2007, 06:15 PM
The thing is, a druid's feral 'tanking' gear seems to act heavily in their favour in terms of DPS as well. I mean... come on - a druid with 15k armour in DPS gear and chucking out 1.8k crit mangles complete with the HP pool to match a prot warrior. It's like throwing all the warrior stances into one along with gear to fit all occasions. I have no doubt that some gear will provide better DPS than others and that some will be better for tanking... but at present it just seems like attacking a bear when you're melee is suicide unless you zerg them.

Kinshara
06-02-2007, 06:27 PM
The thing is, a druid's feral 'tanking' gear seems to act heavily in their favour in terms of DPS as well. I mean... come on - a druid with 15k armour in DPS gear and chucking out 1.8k crit mangles complete with the HP pool to match a prot warrior. It's like throwing all the warrior stances into one along with gear to fit all occasions. I have no doubt that some gear will provide better DPS than others and that some will be better for tanking... but at present it just seems like attacking a bear when you're melee is suicide unless you zerg them.

More like Arms Warrior + Prot warrior. Fury is more about sustained pve dps, though it still has some burst available.

From a pve angle, I can see why; the devs buffed the damage and removed the scaling threat component. This makes druid tanks reliant on gear that give them lots of attack power to hold aggro. Fine for many fights, but when you really need to stack *lots* of +resist, it'll suck trying to hold aggro. Same with pallies and +dmg gear. Warriors are way ahead for that kind of fight.

This has an impact in pvp though, where you have both high damage and high physicial mitigation, along with a huge health pool to soak up caster damage and the heals to recover from it after killing an opponent. The end of beta testing seemed to suggest people had adapted to it (from various forum posts), but we'll see what happens on live.

xexa
07-02-2007, 04:37 AM
Warriors dont need buff!

Druid in Bear forms need to be balanced (more suitable word that nerfed) in what blizzard wants them to be doing in PvE, without making them the powerfull melee dueling mashines they are now in PvP.

Fintan
07-02-2007, 05:13 AM
As far as I'm concerned, I always expect to lose 1v1 to a Feral Druid in a PvP situation on my Warrior. Fine, I can live with that, every class has tough fights, and if you're 1v1 with someone who's going to rip you into small pieces, try not to be! However, something *has* to be done with Bear DPS. I don't know a great deal about Bear tanking, but I hear it's mainly damage related, is there no way to alter this into having less powerful, threat generating swipes instead of just mashing things into a pulp? I'm sure there would be less Feral Druids running amok if they weren't able to crit for thousands in BG's with their "tanking" abilities.

I fucking hate Druids.

Having said that, mainly playing on my Mage now when I do play, Druids are an incredibly easy kill for me. AV is the best, being allowed the freedom to load an epixxed feral with Imp.Scorch and watch him burn is truly one of WoW's greatest pleasures. :P

Karadros
07-02-2007, 05:28 AM
Warriors dont need buff!
Yeah they do. Have you stopped tanking in Zerk with a 2h yet?

Manidim
07-02-2007, 05:57 AM
I say we burn the druids and warriors, that would solve the problem.

Kinshara
07-02-2007, 08:38 AM
I don't know a great deal about Bear tanking, but I hear it's mainly damage related, is there no way to alter this into having less powerful, threat generating swipes instead of just mashing things into a pulp?

It used to be based on heavily scaling modifiers for low damage. It's now been changed to higher damage, lower scaling. So... they'd have to do the exact reverse of the change they've made for TBC.


Having said that, mainly playing on my Mage now when I do play, Druids are an incredibly easy kill for me. AV is the best, being allowed the freedom to load an epixxed feral with Imp.Scorch and watch him burn is truly one of WoW's greatest pleasures. :P

Heh :)

I think a good feral druid is an excellent challenge for a mage. A bad one is roadkill, as you suggest.

soulshift
07-02-2007, 08:55 AM
Tell that to Ashen hehe :P

Ashen is actually quite a nice teamplayer. He saved my butt several times.

Having said that, mainly playing on my Mage now when I do play, Druids are an incredibly easy kill for me.

I actually think mages, locks and warriors are easy kills these days one on one in places like AV and other BGs. :p

Fintan
07-02-2007, 09:07 AM
Oomkin's can be suprisingly hard, they seem to crit for nearly as much as me, a starfire crit out of nowhere can really hurt! :|

I generally destroy Feral Druids.

*Shrug*

Gwynin
07-02-2007, 09:19 AM
buff me!

@soulshift -->> ( - )( - )

xexa
09-02-2007, 05:18 AM
Warriors dont need buff!
Yeah they do. Have you stopped tanking in Zerk with a 2h yet?
Why do we need a buff?

We seem to be doing pretty much what we suposed to be. I dont have any problems in both pvp and pve!

The problem here is the druid power against a melee only based class. We are suposed to be the melee masters, they are not, so they should not be able to win us just by going bear form, and melee us to death!

Once again the problem is the druids are buffed!

Karadros
09-02-2007, 05:35 AM
We are suposed to be the melee masters
Tell that to rogues. :(

Darkreaver
09-02-2007, 10:19 AM
Warriors dont need buff!
Yeah they do. Have you stopped tanking in Zerk with a 2h yet?
Why do we need a buff?

We seem to be doing pretty much what we suposed to be. I dont have any problems in both pvp and pve!

The problem here is the druid power against a melee only based class. We are suposed to be the melee masters, they are not, so they should not be able to win us just by going bear form, and melee us to death!

Once again the problem is the druids are buffed!

lets just clear a few things up..... Rage is still a problem for me and for alot of warriors i find it harder to keep aggro on multi targets and tbh its turning into a nightmare.

Also another fact i found out today was that At 490 defense, the math caps out. Defense won't mitigate beyond that, Unless you are attacking a mob higher then lvl 73 (which there is not any in game). The only way a defence rating of more then 490 will be making a difference is if we get another lvl cap increase.

Also along with that if we go fully prot and that allows us to be good tanks for sure we cant solo anything without going to get a cup of tea while we are fighting and maybe even nip to the shop's come back mob at 1% ready to die. However there is light at the end of the tunnel.

What the devs want to work towards is having a generally arms spec'ed warrior as something of a base-line tank. If you don't take that too literally, I will elaborate. :P

Figure Prot to be high tanking and Fury to be high DPS. Put varying Arms spec's in a middle-ground. That's a general way to look at things.

I have a druid in my guild he has around 11k armour (druids now can go so much higher i have heard 18.5k max?), he has over 11.5k hitpoints and a little less defence then me (but add the 2500attack power he has ). Now i aint the best tank and have 11k hitpoints buffed 490 defence (can go to 510) and 10,890 armour. yes he is a better tank then me and can hold aggro better then i can in *some* areas however he can solo things without a problem and heal and do everything else. warriors should be able to do the same no matter what spec they are same goes for holy priests.


Now then pvp.... were do i start. i was in eye of storm owning a little but not because i was running around with my 1.8k attack power and just hitting things and then they all died oh no. All i was seeming to do was either the following.

1. getting owned by ranged attacks and getting kited around like a bitch
2. finding a 1 or 2 people together then i would charging in taking alot of damge then having someone on my team come and make most of the damge for me. this would just allow me to just excute the remaining.

i understand you need a healer to be effective in pvp as a warrior but the pvp as warrior is weak. Also there was a post made by a offical blizzard rep saying that warriors are underpowered and that the devs are working on fixing the issue and that from lvl 60 to 70 we are very weak. however they beleive at 70 with the new gear we will start to get a little better.

I personaly dont see this as when we get to 70 its like when we got to 60 we used to be able to get few decent items and see a major increase in our dps / tanking. However those items like arcanite reaper HOOOOO were nerfed via nerfing us. Normalized weapon speed, Normaalized Rage, Normalized normalized and then along with all the other nerfs its becoming a joke. and also other classes will be getting this shinney new gear as well...

so in a closing statement... we are the weakest pvp option and druids can outtank us 80% of the time. blizzard have said there is a problem and they are working on fixing it however want to see more warriors in the lvl 70 gear as it should be a improvement. basicaly that mean 60 to 69 we suck bollox and at lvl 70 we may get a little more power and other classes will get a dam lot more power.

At the same time people keep saying reroll to another class... anyone been having noticed finding a warrior now days is getting harder and harder (on horde that is)... i think people are starting to do that more and more.

sorry for the rambling

Gwynin
09-02-2007, 10:26 AM
I totally love you Darkreaver, and agree with your post :)

Flawless
09-02-2007, 11:12 AM
about holding aggro against mutiple mobs tell your group to hold a sec, pop beserker rage if your that starved, and start cleaving + tab sundering, thats the way i've done it

Astroth
09-02-2007, 02:04 PM
about holding aggro against mutiple mobs tell your group to hold a sec, pop beserker rage if your that starved, and start cleaving + tab sundering, thats the way i've done it

Just wondered....wouldn't the rage used on Cleave be better spent on tab-HS/Sunder those two mobs instead?
I mean (well, the tooltip may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time :razz: ) Cleave just adds weapon-dmg and hits two mobs at the same time, but it doesn't generate any additional aggro besides the extra dmg and it costs a lot of rage.
Or maybe I'm way off here, but I'm still a bit of a warrior-noob, so please forgive my ignorance. :)

On another note, would anyone have a link to a site or post with some hard numbers on warrior-mechanics?

Darkreaver
09-02-2007, 03:13 PM
about holding aggro against mutiple mobs tell your group to hold a sec, pop beserker rage if your that starved, and start cleaving + tab sundering, thats the way i've done it

Just wondered....wouldn't the rage used on Cleave be better spent on tab-HS/Sunder those two mobs instead?
I mean (well, the tooltip may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time :razz: ) Cleave just adds weapon-dmg and hits two mobs at the same time, but it doesn't generate any additional aggro besides the extra dmg and it costs a lot of rage.
Or maybe I'm way off here, but I'm still a bit of a warrior-noob, so please forgive my ignorance. :)

On another note, would anyone have a link to a site or post with some hard numbers on warrior-mechanics?

for my facts on the 490 defence being the max you can ever use at this time i got it of the usa warrior forums. also there forums hold some nice info from time to time.

xexa
09-02-2007, 04:05 PM
We are suposed to be the melee masters
Tell that to rogues. :(
Yes, but rogues use more control. They need to know what they are doing...

But a druid just melees U to death! I dont find that fair!



Rage is still a problem for me and for alot of warriors i find it harder to keep aggro on multi targets and tbh its turning into a nightmare.

I do agree then keeping agro on multiple mobs is way hard now! Before we could keep agro on 4 mobs, while party a 5th mob. But the way i see it, team play, as the way this game is suposed to be played the way blizzard wants, its more then just about one warrior tanking and behing sundering alternative mobs, while using all he as at his disposal and skill (thunder clap, demo shout, challeging shout, mocking etc...), and when something goes rong just blame the tank...

The other members are not suposed to be healing and dpsing bots.

Shackle, Poly, sap, fear, offtanking with pets and voids, kiting, u are not supose to be playing alone u know? So get your team mates to play the other classes as good as U play yours! Feral Druids can tank another mob at any given time, we now have pallys also...

And against a single target, lets say a boss i dont thing is harder then before...

And altough as a 2H fury U feel the nerfed rage, as a DW i get all the rage i need!

Also along with that if we go fully prot and that allows us to be good tanks for sure we cant solo anything without going to get a cup of tea while we are fighting and maybe even nip to the shop's come back mob at 1% ready to die. However there is light at the end of the tunnel.
We cant have anything can we? The way i see it, we all will enjoy a lot more of the game at the max level, and by that time U wont be needing leveling, so that problem is not so big. U choose to be a tank, its somewhat the number 1 team player. So team-play. I have done all the dungeons until my lvl (69) u dont need to pe prot, to get past these bosses. They require control and tactics but not a prot tank. Play fury for leveling and then if u want to tank, then tank with our friends and guild collegues!



I have a druid in my guild he has around 11k armour (druids now can go so much higher i have heard 18.5k max?), he has over 11.5k hitpoints and a little less defence then me (but add the 2500attack power he has ). Now i aint the best tank and have 11k hitpoints buffed 490 defence (can go to 510) and 10,890 armour. yes he is a better tank then me and can hold aggro better then i can in *some* areas however he can solo things without a problem and heal and do everything else. warriors should be able to do the same no matter what spec they are same goes for holy priests.
If they do all that, they make our specialization (melee combat) as a secondary class, so once again nerf them, no need for buffing us!

i understand you need a healer to be effective in pvp as a warrior but the pvp as warrior is weak.A well played warrior in pvp isnt week. And PvP isnt dueling!

U are not suposed to be a grinding machine, at the same time tanking, pvping and dpsing. That why we have 9 diferent classes, with 3 diferent builds each. The game is suposed to be team-played, and u choose a specialization in hope that in combination with your friends whatever u bring to the groop will match good with their skills so U can do new challenges.

As i said the druid feral is a problem, not the warrior!

Maur
09-02-2007, 04:12 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMxdhi0MMZVVzuMxRbZf :lol:

wtf is this Oo you "pwning" ppl doing only white dmg and interepting them? :D

Karadros
09-02-2007, 04:24 PM
So anyway, given all this new 5-man content and there very often not being any room for a PvP-spec Arms warrior, I respecced fury/prot.

Tanked Shattered Halls.
Or tried to.

I could hold aggro for maybe four seconds until mages dragged them off me.

Tsarina
09-02-2007, 04:28 PM
Just wondered....wouldn't the rage used on Cleave be better spent on tab-HS/Sunder those two mobs instead?
I mean (well, the tooltip may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time :razz: ) Cleave just adds weapon-dmg and hits two mobs at the same time, but it doesn't generate any additional aggro besides the extra dmg and it costs a lot of rage.
Or maybe I'm way off here, but I'm still a bit of a warrior-noob, so please forgive my ignorance. :)
The tooltip is wrong. Or at least incomplete. Cleave adds threat.

So anyway, given all this new 5-man content and there very often not being any room for a PvP-spec Arms warrior, I respecced fury/prot.

Tanked Shattered Halls.
Or tried to.

I could hold aggro for maybe four seconds until mages dragged them off me.
I don't know how many points you have in prot, but try going full prot. It makes a huge difference.

Darkreaver
09-02-2007, 05:02 PM
to XeXE

blizzard have stated warriors are in need of work as we are weak as hell (someone try to find that topic made by a blue for me i no longer have access to otd forums but posted the link in the warrior section :P). im not going to try to come back at you with any comments or picking at your ideas tbh but if you think we are only there as a meat sheild and we are perfect then i think you need to rethink a few things. but hey everyone has a opinion this is mine that was yours.

btw on a side note we may not need to lvl but we should be able to grind rep and money etc alot better then we can now.

xexa
09-02-2007, 05:14 PM
we are only there as a meat sheildI am not even a tank... i am dps speced!

Gwynin
09-02-2007, 05:41 PM
Im fully fury specced with 11 points in arms to get anger management (am lvl 68 atm), didnt even get the TM from prot tree so far.

And I have been MT in Ramparts, Furnace, Underbog, Slave Pens and Mana Tombs, and except for places where there are 4+ groups its been doable. But the rage lackage is a problem on trash for me, my tank gear removes alot of hits and therefore rage so Ive had to tank trash while dualwielding (not a problem on most trash).

Overall its very doable if you have the proper group setup (mage poly, rogue sap mainly) to reduce number of active mobs, but if you lack that setup everyone in the party will to some degree be off tanks :)

Mana Tombs is a bitch to tank while being fury spec (sorry to some Myrmidons members :P ) even with a "proper" group blend and really keeps you on your toes, but then again it gets slightly more interesting and skill demanding.

Im still looking forward to the average joe accepting druid tanks tho (since they do it so well atm), so that I finally can be dps in instances :D

Taurusos
11-02-2007, 08:37 AM
Seriously...

All the "waaaaaaaaaaaaaahaha"...

Rage is fine. Multitanking if fiiiiiine.

Tanking is easier than ever before. Why? They feed you right amount of mobs to generate that aggro you need. And no, im not always using TF so dont blame the proc.

Learn to tab, get the initial aggro on the pull.

Also, this time around, speccing FULL prot DOES make a difference.

Not many priests or clothies die on my watch. Many bosses do however.

And for grinding solo, yes you aint gonna be a nuking fire mage, however, work on those block values. Why? Shield slam. (if yu got the talent that is).

For every situation Blizzard has put us in there is a soluton.

Take control in the place you are.

Got a mage? Tell them to sheep AFTER you pulled.

Got a hunter? Tell them to MD pull for ya.

Got a shamzor on aggro sensitive fights? make sure they put a TA totem in range of raid/group but OOR from you as tank.

All and all, work hate on all mobs, dont focus on one.

And for all these dungeons, I recommend to get 11p fury for EZ mode howl.

God know how much fun Ive had with a fellow hunter letting a priest relax and have me and the hunter kite 3 elites just for the hell of it.
EZ mode howl works on _most_ bosses too.

Heroic kiting aint never been sweeter. ;)

Dont give in on situation. Wipe, res, rework.

Slam that target.

/Tau

Chonar
11-02-2007, 12:36 PM
Aye, I was surprised too that Piercing Howl works on bosses. I mean wtf. o.O That was new when I first found out.

/abuse abuse abuse

Ysabella
11-02-2007, 01:07 PM
Long live Firefly! *hugs Gwynin*