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Parcival
01-01-2007, 11:49 AM
I tanked some times in 5 man instances, and there i think ppl will want a Paladin more then a Warrior for tank... why? because next to holding aggro as good as a Warrior there, the Paladin will be on top of damage meter (of course presuming the warrior and the paladin have about the same level of gear).

There is even more to say for taking a Paladin tank in 5 man instances - mobs dont hit very hard, so the Paladin can tank with a 2 hander, which in turn will turn out even more damage.

Yesterday i did a BRD run, with a Warrior as tank. Just for fun and to learn, i used my 2 hander (Blackfury), and fought for aggro gain against the warrior. The warrior didnt stand a chance.... only with taunting could he get aggro, but after the taunt was over, the mobs/ bosses turned back to me.... and this was because almost everywhere, there are groups and not single mobs to fight. Groups of mobs mean Concecration - i get aggro - almost 100% chance Reckoning will activate. I think over half of the raids hits i did were double hits.

Take next to this into account that a Paladin can heal in tight spots, cleanse, cast buffs, and will be on top of damage meter and you got an Obsolete Warrior (for 5 man instances).

Discuss 8)

Sethanon
01-01-2007, 11:53 AM
bring saxo to an instance and try again :P
(or another good warrior)

Parcival
01-01-2007, 11:58 AM
To be honest, the warrior in that BRD run wasn't geared as good as me, faaaar from it even. Still i think an even geared prot or retri warrior can't get out the same damage as a prot Paladin, in 5 man instances.

Coldpwa
01-01-2007, 12:06 PM
Nobody cares how much damage a tank does as long as you keep the mob in place for the DPS to do their thing. Now if you can keep it in place, DPS and achieve a higher threat value than pure DPS classes do at the same time (something that I highly doubt), then that's only advantageous.

AnteroVipune
01-01-2007, 12:06 PM
The better warriors gear gets, the worse his ability to tank in 5man instances get.

Paladins use mana to tank. Better gear = usually more mana.
Warriors use rage to tank. Better gear = usually less rage.

Bring a lvl58, blue geared warrior in BRD and he wont have rage problems and will make an excelent tank there.
Bring a lvl60 tier 3 geared warrior in BRD and he wont have any rage what so ever to tank.

This is hardly a new discovery.

Parcival
01-01-2007, 12:11 PM
Hehe, well, it is still pretty much a taboo for alot of ppl to think of Paladins to tank in instances, and i am talking about PuGs here...

Anyways, i am now full prot specced, but to really be the best tank/ damage dealer in 5 mans, think of this spec :)

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/paladin/talents.html?5500000000000000000005305133000000500 00000523005100000000000000

Earny
01-01-2007, 12:47 PM
This is true, in TBC beta palas are preffered to warriors. They generate a LOT of threat instantly and at lvl 64 they get there own version of sunder which means they dont have to use much mana because its a DoT.

Backup
01-01-2007, 03:41 PM
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/paladin/talents.html?0503000000000000000005005033520021503 15010520500000000000000000

Will be the best tank spec at 70 imo - no point in a 60 one as we lack any good defense gear.

Ogg
01-01-2007, 04:19 PM
The better warriors gear gets, the worse his ability to tank in 5man instances get.

Paladins use mana to tank. Better gear = usually more mana.
Warriors use rage to tank. Better gear = usually less rage.

Bring a lvl58, blue geared warrior in BRD and he wont have rage problems and will make an excelent tank there.
Bring a lvl60 tier 3 geared warrior in BRD and he wont have any rage what so ever to tank.

This is hardly a new discovery.

Or bring Ogg.

Kathra
01-01-2007, 04:21 PM
The better warriors gear gets, the worse his ability to tank in 5man instances get.

Paladins use mana to tank. Better gear = usually more mana.
Warriors use rage to tank. Better gear = usually less rage.

Bring a lvl58, blue geared warrior in BRD and he wont have rage problems and will make an excelent tank there.
Bring a lvl60 tier 3 geared warrior in BRD and he wont have any rage what so ever to tank.

This is hardly a new discovery.

Or bring Ogg.

*quotes your sig*

Ogg
01-01-2007, 04:55 PM
My decisions have a strange tendency to get me all sorts of aggro :(

Parcival
01-01-2007, 05:26 PM
Warriors will still be good tanks i 5 man instances, but i am saying that if a group has to choose between a warrior or a prot specced paladin, they should choose the paladin, because of:

A. more DPS
B. more versatility (healer silenced - pala heals self + buffs, etc)

Ogg
01-01-2007, 05:30 PM
Parcival wins the Anterovipunen medal for awesome reading.

Lednar
01-01-2007, 06:40 PM
Me(as my warrior, Cornelia)and a friend of mine(Who played Paladin) used to take instances. I don't got much problem tanking in for example UBRS, LBRS. But when it comes to undeads in Stratholme and Scholo, I would let the Paladin tank. I'm charging, he run after and bam he get's all the aggro >.< He was a bit more ZG geared than me with Holy Talents. Spelldmg and Holy Shock=Aggro(Not if I managed to get min. 2 sunders on the mob.) In Scholo/Stratholme(Undead instaces) I would let the Paladin tank, but for Humanoids and other races, I would let a Warrior tank.

And try to tank in MC! :( Remmember when I was raiding once with CoI... MT had to go AFK and one of the Paladins got the job as MT :(

Oh, and what if a Huntard pulled alot of mobs? The Paladin could tank...for a while...until his mana runs out... But the warrior? :P

Kinshara
01-01-2007, 06:56 PM
Hmm... I'm wondering how a lvl 70 pally tank will fare in lower instances actually. Better than a warrior in the same gear, sure, but probably not as well as either class with lesser gear.

One thing I've found when tanking with my pally is that I do want to take damage, much the same as a warrior does. The warrior needs it for rage, I need it so people heal me -- and thus gain mana from spiritual attunement; I'd run out of mana on longer battles otherwise. I've got an advantage at the start of a fight, of course.

It's not much of a problem if you can stack mp5 gear instead of +def/+sta/+dmg, I guess.

Shadewalk
02-01-2007, 03:48 AM
I can see how a paladin is advantagous in the current design of many instances... generally many weak mobs, here the paladin wins often due to the AoE aggro that warriors took a big nerfing to.

But suddenly paladin aggro AoE is a problem, it breaks any crowd control, which may turn out to be critical for realistic (not overgeared/overleveled) running of instances where you have to pull more mobs than are ment to be tanked and healing can handle.

The point on using 2H weapons goes with overgeared, in an instance your character is starting you are not going to be tanking without that extra armor and block from a shield, though overgeared your body armor items are likely compensating for the missing shield.

Also I think lednar made a good point on chain pulling, my understanding is paladin tanking is mana heavy, so you would probably need to take more mana breaks for the tank, which at least on the bright side would mean you should not get any oom from the healers when the tank is likely to be more sympathetic to the limited power of oom healing.

Orza
02-01-2007, 03:59 AM
The better warriors gear gets, the worse his ability to tank in 5man instances get.

Paladins use mana to tank. Better gear = usually more mana.
Warriors use rage to tank. Better gear = usually less rage.

Bring a lvl58, blue geared warrior in BRD and he wont have rage problems and will make an excelent tank there.
Bring a lvl60 tier 3 geared warrior in BRD and he wont have any rage what so ever to tank.

This is hardly a new discovery.


Or maybe the t3 tanks are in a lack of motivation there?

Rage is good yes, but it's very easy to have enough rage in all 5 man instances by using the right talent build and tricks. And more stamina/block/threat you have, the more mobs you can have on you to play with.

edit: tho it's not the same with the horde since we don't have holy dudsons spammin holy crap on the scourge bastids .. a... pfft. I'll get me coat! -.-

syranndyr
02-01-2007, 04:13 AM
I tanked some times in 5 man instances, and there i think ppl will want a Paladin more then a Warrior for tank... why? because next to holding aggro as good as a Warrior there, the Paladin will be on top of damage meter (of course presuming the warrior and the paladin have about the same level of gear).

There is even more to say for taking a Paladin tank in 5 man instances - mobs dont hit very hard, so the Paladin can tank with a 2 hander, which in turn will turn out even more damage.

Yesterday i did a BRD run, with a Warrior as tank. Just for fun and to learn, i used my 2 hander (Blackfury), and fought for aggro gain against the warrior. The warrior didnt stand a chance.... only with taunting could he get aggro, but after the taunt was over, the mobs/ bosses turned back to me.... and this was because almost everywhere, there are groups and not single mobs to fight. Groups of mobs mean Concecration - i get aggro - almost 100% chance Reckoning will activate. I think over half of the raids hits i did were double hits.

Take next to this into account that a Paladin can heal in tight spots, cleanse, cast buffs, and will be on top of damage meter and you got an Obsolete Warrior (for 5 man instances).

Discuss 8)

SSE is now officially home to the trolls.

zanzanexpo
02-01-2007, 07:46 AM
Or maybe the t3 tanks are in a lack of motivation there?

Rage is good yes, but it's very easy to have enough rage in all 5 man instances by using the right talent build and tricks. And more stamina/block/threat you have, the more mobs you can have on you to play with.

edit: tho it's not the same with the horde since we don't have holy dudsons spammin holy crap on the scourge bastids .. a... pfft. I'll get me coat! -.-

no?
when mobs hit you for 250, and you have 20% parry, 20% dodge and 20% block[i know i do] it takes at least 5 seconds if not more to have enough rage for 1 sunder, thats why i wear DPS-oriented gear in 5-man even if i have to tank, i dont think gandling really needs a tank with 400 defence and insane melee avoidance

Chopper
02-01-2007, 11:03 AM
I stroked my ego in BRD. It was nice.

Discuss 8)

SSE is now officially home to the trolls.
I was just thinking that. I thought I'd stumbled into the wow-europe.com warrior forum.

To the OP:
A warrior can't compete with the instant aggro abilities of a paladin - it's very old news. Similarly, if any other equally-geared non-warrior class decides to immediately go all-out for maximum aggro, a warrior can't compete with that either. The skill actually lies in not out-aggroing your tank, the guy with the superior damage avoidance and mitigation for the fights where it actually counts.

Warriors are obsolete because you fuckabout-tanked BRD with your epic gear? I don't think so.

Parcival
02-01-2007, 11:23 AM
I did some more instances with me tanking, LBRS and 2 times UBRS. There was also a warrior with about the same level gear as me present, who was main tank on the second UBRS run.

We kinda just zerged the instances, even with the half PuG 8 man run the second UBRS time, so there wasn't really alot of sheeping going on. I do see however that it could be a problem with the paladin trying to get aggro with Concecration aura or the ranged shield attack... but you can still use Judgement of Crusader to get aggro fast...

This is what i noticed again... Paladins can get initial aggro better, and on the LBRS/ UBRS run, i again was on top of the damage meter. But when it comes to long fights vs 1 mob/ boss, in the long run the warrior will be better at holding aggro, indeed because the paladin will eventually run out of mana, even with the 8% mana refund from heals.

Syranndir, if you think i am trolling, sorry, that wasn't my intention with that post. I made the post and topic a bit provocative, so there would be more interest in the thread, which i want because i like and learn from discussion (or try to).

Chopper, sorry that i wrote my experiences, yes i was a very pleasantly surprised so maybe i overdid it a bit. I guess i could try to get blue items again, find a PuG, and see if it would work too then... for now i can only think about if it would work.

Again, i am trying to find out if Paladins could tank as good as Warriors for BRD/ UBRS/ LBRS, etc. Why? because i never knew a PuG who was searching for a tank who asked for a paladin. As far as i know a tanking paladin always was a taboo, same as a dps paladin.

Luhzren
02-01-2007, 12:25 PM
Chopper I think you're missing some of the points. Paladins have been buffed in a way that allows for us to also take very little damage, so there's really no downside for pally tanking as long as he has the spec for it. So the point here is that if the paladin can take aggro faster than a warrior and keep the aggro from the warrior all the way through the fight, then I see no reason why paladins can't be the tank. Also pallies now gain mana when we get healed, so we can keep up all our aggro generating abilties for a very long time. So I'd say that warriors migth be obsolete as tanks, just like Parcival says. However people such as yourself are doing very well in the dps department (if specced for it) and I think this might be your role in the future.

Valoran
02-01-2007, 12:34 PM
If warriors are obsolete as tanks, then so are paladins and druids.

Tbh, all three now have the ability to tank most things and have certain abilities that give them advantages in certain situations. I think in the future, the "MT" will just be someone who's willing to do the job, rather than any one specific class. This, of course, depends on blizzard providing equal levels of itemisation.

Parcival
02-01-2007, 12:49 PM
I want to rename the thread :(

Warriors of course wont be obsolete as tanks, and, even though i just read somewhere that Paladins 'could' be as good as warriors tanking high end, raid bosses in TBC, i think warriors will still be better there. This because i think they do better in the damage mitigation department, and the keeping aggro longer department.

Firesoul
02-01-2007, 01:34 PM
Aye, try having a Pally hold aggro hard for 15 minutes.

Also, why on Earth would a Pally want to be a main tank - restricting their freedom to do so much more?

I'd rather have a prot warrior tanking, and have a pally on healing that can off-tank or judge or do dps if needed.

Having us focused on one particular role itself is a bit silly.

Muh
02-01-2007, 01:43 PM
Aye, try having a Pally hold aggro hard for 15 minutes.

Also, why on Earth would a Pally want to be a main tank - restricting their freedom to do so much more?

I'd rather have a prot warrior tanking, and have a pally on healing that can off-tank or judge or do dps if needed.

Having us focused on one particular role itself is a bit silly.

Hybrid ftw :D

Gyundor
02-01-2007, 04:08 PM
I did some more instances with me tanking, LBRS and 2 times UBRS. There was also a warrior with about the same level gear as me present, who was main tank on the second UBRS run.

We kinda just zerged the instances, even with the half PuG 8 man run the second UBRS time, so there wasn't really alot of sheeping going on. I do see however that it could be a problem with the paladin trying to get aggro with Concecration aura or the ranged shield attack... but you can still use Judgement of Crusader to get aggro fast...

This is what i noticed again... Paladins can get initial aggro better, and on the LBRS/ UBRS run, i again was on top of the damage meter. But when it comes to long fights vs 1 mob/ boss, in the long run the warrior will be better at holding aggro, indeed because the paladin will eventually run out of mana, even with the 8% mana refund from heals.

Syranndir, if you think i am trolling, sorry, that wasn't my intention with that post. I made the post and topic a bit provocative, so there would be more interest in the thread, which i want because i like and learn from discussion (or try to).

Chopper, sorry that i wrote my experiences, yes i was a very pleasantly surprised so maybe i overdid it a bit. I guess i could try to get blue items again, find a PuG, and see if it would work too then... for now i can only think about if it would work.

Again, i am trying to find out if Paladins could tank as good as Warriors for BRD/ UBRS/ LBRS, etc. Why? because i never knew a PuG who was searching for a tank who asked for a paladin. As far as i know a tanking paladin always was a taboo, same as a dps paladin.

Pala's can do some nice dps right now thats for sure... but really what were the other classes doing dps? holy specced priests in healinggear? no wonder you could keep agro

Senex
02-01-2007, 04:29 PM
A properly geared Shadow Priest can tank 5-man instances. :)

Kinshara
02-01-2007, 04:44 PM
Aye, try having a Pally hold aggro hard for 15 minutes.

Also, why on Earth would a Pally want to be a main tank - restricting their freedom to do so much more?

I'd rather have a prot warrior tanking, and have a pally on healing that can off-tank or judge or do dps if needed.

Having us focused on one particular role itself is a bit silly.

Oh, there's no problem in holding aggro for long periods of time now... the combination of BoW/JoW/SA means you'll have plenty of mana to dish holy damage with.

But I do agree with being hybridy -- though I've been asked to maintank on occasion, I much prefer to be an offtank that can heal or switch to a 2 hander and bash stuff as needed.

Parcival
02-01-2007, 04:52 PM
Pala's can do some nice dps right now thats for sure... but really what were the other classes doing dps? holy specced priests in healinggear? no wonder you could keep agro

Most were alts - there were no mages nor warlocks, the only one near me in gear was a fury warrior i guess. The second run there was a mage and warlock, and there i was 3rd, after them, on the damage meters i heard.

Then again, my T2 gear and rings, trinkets, etc, aren't DPS or Tank specced. I read the paladin forums a bit now, and i got the impression that if you want to be a good tank as paladin, so with tank gear etc, you wont do this good damage which i have seen now.

Firesoul
02-01-2007, 04:56 PM
Aye, try having a Pally hold aggro hard for 15 minute

Oh, there's no problem in holding aggro for long periods of time now... the combination of BoW/JoW/SA means you'll have plenty of mana to dish holy damage with.



That's why I said "hard". It's tough. Sooner or later the mana pool does run out for a prot specced pally, which is why it's designed as an off-tanking tool and not as MT. If you look at the prot tree there is very little in there that's for mana regen/conservation. We literally do just have that - BoW/JoW/SA. And if druids ever feel like Innervating us. :P

Personally, I prefer off-tanking with my Holy tree. There's decent damage being Holy-specced and with the boosts to Holy damage, holding aggro as an off-tank or MT in Strat-level dungeons isn't a problem.

Syd
02-01-2007, 05:28 PM
Pala's can do some nice dps right now thats for sure... but really what were the other classes doing dps? holy specced priests in healinggear? no wonder you could keep agro

I was there last night on the lbrs/ubrs run we did. I was on my alt rogue. Geared in a mixture of basic shadowcraft and some ZG gear. Out of the 3 at the top it ended up extremly close on damage. Only a few thousand in it. I was only beat by a fury warrior and Parcival who was doing a very good job of tanking and holding agro. But, if my rogue was also geared in T2, he wouldn't have stood a chance on overall damage. But the point is, Paladins can tank, and tank very well.

There was mention on mana and downtime. TBH that was very minimal. No more than having to wait on healers getting mana back.

Bleetman
02-01-2007, 05:44 PM
Pffrt. I'm not tanking, damnit. It's bloody expensive.

soulshift
02-01-2007, 07:02 PM
Bares are made for tank to be honest.
And Bleet is right, listen to him. :<
Don't let his wisdom elude you.

Bleetman
02-01-2007, 07:05 PM
You're just saying that because you want my pants.

Iyachtu
02-01-2007, 07:21 PM
Well, who doesnt ?

Bleetman
02-01-2007, 07:39 PM
Good point.

Ogg
02-01-2007, 08:50 PM
I don't!

Flawless
02-01-2007, 08:54 PM
yeah right, we know you do.

Ogg
02-01-2007, 08:55 PM
Nnnoooo... I want what's inside them.

soulshift
02-01-2007, 10:50 PM
You're just saying that because you want my pants.

*Points at sig*

Bleetman
02-01-2007, 11:10 PM
Lies, never happened.

Flawless
02-01-2007, 11:11 PM
I have proof...

Tsarina
03-01-2007, 12:15 AM
I'd have to see it to believe you could OD a good mage/warlock/shadowpriest/warrior/rogue/hunter in a full instance run. Having said that, I haven't teamed with any paladins since patch (in PvE), so I wouldn't really know.

As for their tanking abilities, I'm sure you are right. Go to the beta forums and you'll see that both druids and paladins are prefered for tanking. That goes for both raid bosses (druids at least) and ordinary instancing.

A warrior that doesn't get enough rage because of too high mitigation, is hopefully sensible enough to exchange some tanking gear for DPS gear.

Fintan
03-01-2007, 12:25 AM
A properly geared Shadow Priest can tank 5-man instances. :)

I've yet to find something that a well geared Shadowpriest does badly. :(

Kabhanda
03-01-2007, 12:27 AM
A properly geared Shadow Priest can tank 5-man instances. :)

I've yet to find something that a well geared Shadowpriest does badly. :(

Even when specced shadow I couldn't get arroused by women.

Ogg
03-01-2007, 12:28 AM
well, then it's not you doing anything, it's the women who are doing it badly.

Kabhanda
03-01-2007, 12:30 AM
No like, if I had porn with women in, I couldn't get it up at all.

Ogg
03-01-2007, 12:40 AM
then it's the guys who made the porn who're doing it badly.

Kabhanda
03-01-2007, 12:49 AM
They were also specced shadow!

Ogg
03-01-2007, 12:58 AM
you win

Kinshara
03-01-2007, 01:14 AM
I'd have to see it to believe you could OD a good mage/warlock/shadowpriest/warrior/rogue/hunter in a full instance run. Having said that, I haven't teamed with any paladins since patch (in PvE), so I wouldn't really know.

In the current 5 mans it's quite possible... something I noticed long ago with well geared warriors was that they could cut down most mobs in strat/scholo with about 4 swings; paladin white damage isn't that far off, and with crusader strike + the occasional SoC proc, most things will be at half health or less before a caster can even throw a single bolt. Rogues might get in an ambush or backstab plus some white damage per mob, but probably won't get to a finisher. Hunters and warriors should be quite good though.

Raid damage would be a more interesting test, or possibly heroic mode 5 mans at 70.

Thordyn
03-01-2007, 01:49 AM
lol

Decebalus
03-01-2007, 09:14 AM
initially i thought it was a joke...

then i realised that it's just another confused paladin...

wait for BC, level to 70 and then go tank Murmur (for example)... then come back and post...

Parcival
03-01-2007, 09:40 AM
*shrug*

Confused paladin or not, yesterday i tanked Onyxia, it all went well untill the last 5 or so % where other ppl took aggro from me. That was also the point where i noticed i hadn't put of BoS from myself :oops:

All the fight i had enough mana to spam Consecration, Holy Shield, Seal of Righteousness and Judgement. Thread, i think, isn't really an issue, except when fighting high resistance or immunity to holy damage mobs. Damage mitigation, i think, is still better with warriors, mostly because of gear.

I have read alot about Paladin tanking both in 2.0 and in TBC, but haven't finished with that yet... i will post what i think later perhaps :)

One thing what i have read multiple times though.... 'when you want to make Paladin Tanking viable in your raid/ discussion/ etc, expect to fight an uphill battle.'

Decebalus
03-01-2007, 09:57 AM
you still haven't figured out that the current talents were made for level 70 in BC?...

as i said, wait for level 70, then go to any level 70 instance or try a heroic mode instance...

tanking isn't only about holding aggro... it's also about surviving...

Parcival
03-01-2007, 10:19 AM
So, you're saying Paladins can't tank at lvl 70?

I dont say they will be the best tanks at lvl 70, but i DO say they COULD be tanks...

I am now busy reading this long thread about it:

http://www.worldofraids.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2639&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

soulshift
03-01-2007, 10:42 AM
About the entire "Warrior will be obsolete thing":

If that is truly the case, Druids or Paladins or both will likely see changes to their threat mechanics. Warriors have always been intended to be a primary choice for tanking. That is not going to change, even with Druids and Paladins receiving tanking buffs. Yes, they weren't that good at it before and the devs do want to increase their viability in that role, but it should not be exceeding the capabilities of warriors. If it does, as I said, it'll probably get reigned in some.

Source: WoW forums, 3rd post. Tseric. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=59382934&sid=1)

So the best idea would be to stop drawing conclusions on what you can do now, especially as it is like Decebalus says it is. These talents are meant for level 70 TBC, not the game as it is now. The only reason it was released was to keep people interested in WoW and prevent alot of people from leaving to another MMORPG, same as the PvP gear which is added for this reason and several others.

Tanking and several other things are still being looked at by Blizzard and going to be changed. Ofcourse Paladins and Druids will be able to tank, but Warriors will still be the best tanks, as it's intended to be like according to Blizzard. Druids and Paladins will however be forced to tank in some encounters as they will heal in some and tank/dps in others. This is what Blizzard meant with giving new roles to the hybrid class.

Things are still in the process of being changed, drawing early conclusions is a rather foolish thing to do.

Exting
03-01-2007, 10:53 AM
About the entire "Warrior will be obsolete thing":

If that is truly the case, Druids or Paladins or both will likely see changes to their threat mechanics. Warriors have always been intended to be a primary choice for tanking. That is not going to change, even with Druids and Paladins receiving tanking buffs. Yes, they weren't that good at it before and the devs do want to increase their viability in that role, but it should not be exceeding the capabilities of warriors. If it does, as I said, it'll probably get reigned in some.

Source: WoW forums, 3rd post. Tseric. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=59382934&sid=1)

So the best idea would be to stop drawing conclusions on what you can do now, especially as it is like Decebalus says it is. These talents are meant for level 70 TBC, not the game as it is now. The only reason it was released was to keep people interested in WoW and prevent alot of people from leaving to another MMORPG, same as the PvP gear which is added for this reason and several others.

Tanking and several other things are still being looked at by Blizzard and going to be changed. Ofcourse Paladins and Druids will be able to tank, but Warriors will still be the best tanks, as it's intended to be like according to Blizzard. Druids and Paladins will however be forced to tank in some encounters as they will heal in some and tank/dps in others. This is what Blizzard meant with giving new roles to the hybrid class.

Things are still in the process of being changed, drawing early conclusions is a rather foolish thing to do.


Druids will never fail.!

Parcival
03-01-2007, 11:17 AM
About the entire "Warrior will be obsolete thing":

If that is truly the case, Druids or Paladins or both will likely see changes to their threat mechanics. Warriors have always been intended to be a primary choice for tanking. That is not going to change, even with Druids and Paladins receiving tanking buffs. Yes, they weren't that good at it before and the devs do want to increase their viability in that role, but it should not be exceeding the capabilities of warriors. If it does, as I said, it'll probably get reigned in some.

Source: WoW forums, 3rd post. Tseric. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=59382934&sid=1)

So the best idea would be to stop drawing conclusions on what you can do now, especially as it is like Decebalus says it is. These talents are meant for level 70 TBC, not the game as it is now. The only reason it was released was to keep people interested in WoW and prevent alot of people from leaving to another MMORPG, same as the PvP gear which is added for this reason and several others.

Tanking and several other things are still being looked at by Blizzard and going to be changed. Ofcourse Paladins and Druids will be able to tank, but Warriors will still be the best tanks, as it's intended to be like according to Blizzard. Druids and Paladins will however be forced to tank in some encounters as they will heal in some and tank/dps in others. This is what Blizzard meant with giving new roles to the hybrid class.

Things are still in the process of being changed, drawing early conclusions is a rather foolish thing to do.

I agree with you :)

I dont want to be drawing conclusions, like i said in a previous post, my thread topic was poorly chosen :(

I also hope, and think that Warriors will still be the best tanks, but, i want to know if for example the 3rd (or even 2nd) tank position in a raiding alliance could be given to a paladin, if that would be better as a 3rd (or 2nd) warrior for that position.

Why do i want to know that now? because then i could train how to tank, and gear up for tanking in wait for lvl 70. Of course, if my raiding alliance doesn't mind. If the thought will be that i can better heal, i wont tank :).

Edit: Saw that i could just change the topic lol... so i did :)

soulshift
03-01-2007, 11:26 AM
I think MT spots should be given to warriors.
Hybrids, in this case paladins and druids, should be hybrids.
What am I saying? One fight you're healing, other fight you're DPSing, third scenario you're offtanking. If you're DPSing and a healer dies, shift out of feral forms or do a few steps back and heal instead of DPS. If you're healing and suddenly a tank dies, you step forward and taunt the mob (if possible) or try to get aggro in other ways to atleast try and save the raid.
You can't take along 5ish warriors anymore...
Well you could but yeah. :p

Kinshara
03-01-2007, 11:32 AM
Paladins (and druids) will be quite capable of tanking nearly anything in endgame at 70, according to the information we've recieved from testing and the devs so far. Warriors will still have an edge, so will be preferred as a main tank but not required for most content -- even the heroic mode dungeons.

When we get to raid content, I expect warriors will be maintanks, and paladins/druids offtanks; with paladins specializing in AoE tanking and druids being better at taking large damage spikes.

Firesoul
03-01-2007, 11:42 AM
I think MT spots should be given to warriors.
Hybrids, in this case paladins and druids, should be hybrids.
What am I saying? One fight you're healing, other fight you're DPSing, third scenario you're offtanking. If you're DPSing and a healer dies, shift out of feral forms or do a few steps back and heal instead of DPS. If you're healing and suddenly a tank dies, you step forward and taunt the mob (if possible) or try to get aggro in other ways to atleast try and save the raid.
You can't take along 5ish warriors anymore...
Well you could but yeah. :p

Everything above except for druids.

Cos I hate them.

I got a Starfire crit on me last night for 4100. That shit ain't right. :(

soulshift
03-01-2007, 11:52 AM
I think MT spots should be given to warriors.
Hybrids, in this case paladins and druids, should be hybrids.
What am I saying? One fight you're healing, other fight you're DPSing, third scenario you're offtanking. If you're DPSing and a healer dies, shift out of feral forms or do a few steps back and heal instead of DPS. If you're healing and suddenly a tank dies, you step forward and taunt the mob (if possible) or try to get aggro in other ways to atleast try and save the raid.
You can't take along 5ish warriors anymore...
Well you could but yeah. :p

Everything above except for druids.

Cos I hate them.

I got a Starfire crit on me last night for 4100. That shit ain't right. :(

4100? That's insane. ><

Kinshara
03-01-2007, 12:03 PM
Balance got buffed. 'nuff said.

Kabhanda
03-01-2007, 12:48 PM
The question of tank viability is entirely based on mitigation. If your dps are pulling aggro they can hold back a bit, if your tank is being one shot you are fucked.

For anyone commenting on level 60 instances, I've doen scholo with Ashen tanking, strat and DM with Ante tanking, and tanked ubrs on my priest. Yeah we out gear those places by an insane amount, but most people on here are well enough geared that all level 60 5/10 mans are entirely trivial. There is also alot of raid content that hits so lightly anyone can tank it, the issue here has never been one of aggro (when we learnt broodlord back in the day the issue was 'how do we avoid MS/blastwave one shotting our tanks?' and thats one of the most aggro sensitive fights in early raiding).

Anyone can tank something if they know how to generate aggro with their class and they can actually be healed through the damage they take. As such at level 60 for the vast majority of encounters there is no reason to have anything other than a warrior tank at all. The only time we get a (or sometimes more) pally/druid to tank is when there are alot of targets to tank and we are low on warriors. But even then its often better to not tank the mob at all (adds with Faerlina, we don't tank the first mob we kill at all as it is stunable and dies so damn fast, so waiting for someone to get aggro actually lengthens the fight).

Even if you can take the damage being given out by what you are tanking you then need to ask 'would it be easier for my healers if I was a warrior?' The answer is yes, I don't care how good druids are at swipe aggroing for multi mob pulls, or how well consecrate can keep 207 zombies on a paladin, I care that through sensible use of shield block a properly geared warrior has large gaps between crushing blows meaning that spike damage is lessened and healing is steadier.

When you add in the 'oh shit' value of last stand and shield wall the warrior gets an even bigger lead, the reletive ease with which a warrior can take the damage is why the will always be MT, even if another class can generate more aggro more quickly.

Kinshara
03-01-2007, 01:22 PM
*nod at Khlysti.

Paladins can get quite close on mitigation, but lack the degree of control over it that warriors have. Redoubt + holy shield works well for blocking, but part of that is controlled and part of it is chance on hit. I've done well with it so far, but I'd still prefer a warrior MT when raiding. The extra little tools they have add up, same as they do for other "core" classes vs hybrids.

Offtanking *most* mobs should be fine for paladins though, especially when you can join in healing afterwards; paladin tanking sets do have +dmg/heal, int, and some regen on them as well as the usual tanking stats.

Parcival
03-01-2007, 01:39 PM
So we agree on Warriors > Paladins as MT.

In end gaming, gimped/ min-maxed raids, do you want a Warrior as OT or a Paladin i wonder...

Warrior takes a bit less damage - but thats often not the most important thing as OT.

Paladin can besides being OT be backup healer/ cleanse/ buff a bit better as warrior... But then it would only be viable if the mobs hitting the OT hit hard enough to let you spec prot - if they dont hit hard you can as well just spec Holy and tank that way i guess.

Firesoul
03-01-2007, 01:49 PM
From my view Parcival I wouldn't want a Pally in our guild in a designated role anyway.
If a pally NEEDS to off-tank in a given circumstance, they will. In terms of having a designated OT (i.e. making a conscious decision to choose a Paladin over a warrior for general off-tanking), why bother when you can have a warrior do the job?
In spite of what people say about there being little problems with it from what they've seen, it all comes back to Pallies having a mana pool - i.e. a finite resource to maintain aggro. I doubt at 70 we'll be designed to be focused on one role as it's not our way.
In terms of mitigation, Khlysti's right (despite the fact he likes to shag pretty men). We get spunked on by warriors for that, and I know that for learning new content there's no way I'd pick a Pally over a warrior - unless we face "gauntlet" sections like the Suppression Rooms where AoE is important.

Parcival
03-01-2007, 02:07 PM
The mana pool isn't a problem according to all paladins who tried tanking - and also according to what i noticed. Just spam away consecration, judgements of righteousness and holy shield - against 1 big hitting mob or multiple smaller ones - you will get enough mana back by healing/ judgements.

Some warriors i saw posting that they hope warrior aggro will again be better as Paladin/ Druid aggro... they seem to hit some aggro cap thingy lol, which we dont have.

Kinshara
03-01-2007, 02:29 PM
Warrior tanking threat doesn't rely on damage all that much -- their abilities (sunders, revenge, shield slam, devastate, mocking blow, etc...) all have fixed threat values or effects. So even against mobs with very high mitigation they can still generate plenty of threat. Downside is that the threat from these abilities doesn't scale with gear at the moment.

Paladin and druid tanking, on the other hand, is damage based using multipliers -- so your threat scales upwards nicely as you get better gear.

As Khylsti said, though, tanking in raid situations is mainly about mitigation; once you've got to the point you can hold aggro, it's all about surviving incoming damage and making it easier/less spiky for healers.

Valoran
03-01-2007, 02:39 PM
Some warriors i saw posting that they hope warrior aggro will again be better as Paladin/ Druid aggro... they seem to hit some aggro cap thingy lol, which we dont have.
Everyone has an aggro ceiling, the issue is that paladins and druids scale better with gear, while warriors actually get less rage (and thus have less to convert to threat) once they get better gear and reply the same encounter.

Something interesting people brought up I'd like to expand on. If a warrior is offtanking, they're then stuck in tanking gear (or hybrid, making them harder to heal) for the duration of the fight, gimping them in terms of dps. Paladin tanking gear would still allow them to be fairly decent healers. Then again, it depends what the raid is really short of, should more healing be required, it would make sense to have a pally healing rather than requiring healing. The extra flexability the change in pally abilities gives a raid is pretty awesome.

Bleetman
03-01-2007, 07:34 PM
initially i thought it was a joke...

then i realised that it's just another confused paladin...

wait for BC, level to 70 and then go tank Murmur (for example)... then come back and post...
You... you mean... hybrids theoretically can't manage a specific task better than a class designed to perform it at highest difficulty? Oh fuck it. My world just collapsed.

Alternatively: hi, and welcome to narrow-minded monthly. This issue we'll be discussing feral druids and why they didn't roll rogues. Seriously, whats up with you people?

Flawless
03-01-2007, 08:11 PM
Bleetman wins D:

Decebalus
03-01-2007, 08:29 PM
You... you mean... hybrids theoretically can't manage a specific task better than a class designed to perform it at highest difficulty? Oh fuck it. My world just collapsed.

Alternatively: hi, and welcome to narrow-minded monthly. This issue we'll be discussing feral druids and why they didn't roll rogues. Seriously, whats up with you people?

probably you didn't read the thread from the start...

the initial title of the thread was "warriors obsolete"...

so, please go and troll somewhere else...

//edit
and if you want to call somebody narrow-minded start with the op...

soulshift
03-01-2007, 09:03 PM
This issue we'll be discussing feral druids and why they didn't roll rogues.

Kitties are clearly cuter.

Flawless
03-01-2007, 10:24 PM
This issue we'll be discussing feral druids and why they didn't roll rogues.

Kitties are clearly cuter.Oh yes, Soulshift likes his pussy.

Kinshara
04-01-2007, 01:55 AM
You... you mean... hybrids theoretically can't manage a specific task better than a class designed to perform it at highest difficulty? Oh fuck it. My world just collapsed.

Alternatively: hi, and welcome to narrow-minded monthly. This issue we'll be discussing feral druids and why they didn't roll rogues. Seriously, whats up with you people?

probably you didn't read the thread from the start...

the initial title of the thread was "warriors obsolete"...

so, please go and troll somewhere else...

//edit
and if you want to call somebody narrow-minded start with the op...

The original title was intended as a joke, if a provocative one. We know warriors will still have an edge at 70; but the ability to tank nearly all content isn't quite so exclusive as it used to be.

(Oh, and Murmur is quite doable for a pally with their tanking set -- all the 5man heroic content is; it'll be harder on the healer than a good warrior, but it's certainly not impossible.)

Decebalus
04-01-2007, 08:04 AM
Oh, and Murmur is quite doable for a pally with their tanking set -- all the 5man heroic content is; it'll be harder on the healer than a good warrior, but it's certainly not impossible.

by tanking set you mean T4 / T5?... and you know this from experience or it's just a guess?...

personally, with the exception of 2 bosses, i've tanked all 5 man instances currently available in BC beta... and i can tell you that the reason for which we killed a few bosses was that i used Shieldwall, Last Stand, Lifegiving Gem, pots... i still died in some fights but when the bosses were very low on HP and the others could nuke them down... and i'm full protection specced...

so, yeah, at some point paladins will be able to tank any 5 man instance... but then again shadow priests and rogues have tanked Onyxia (successfully) and a hunter tanked Nefarian...

but do you think that any decent raid will have a paladin among the dedicated tanks?... because that's what the op was asking at some point?... and no, i don't mean while doing obsolete content like raiding MC in T2-2.5...

Kinshara
04-01-2007, 09:53 AM
Oh, and Murmur is quite doable for a pally with their tanking set -- all the 5man heroic content is; it'll be harder on the healer than a good warrior, but it's certainly not impossible.

by tanking set you mean T4 / T5?... and you know this from experience or it's just a guess?...

personally, with the exception of 2 bosses, i've tanked all 5 man instances currently available in BC beta... and i can tell you that the reason for which we killed a few bosses was that i used Shieldwall, Last Stand, Lifegiving Gem, pots... i still died in some fights but when the bosses were very low on HP and the others could nuke them down... and i'm full protection specced...

so, yeah, at some point paladins will be able to tank any 5 man instance... but then again shadow priests and rogues have tanked Onyxia (successfully) and a hunter tanked Nefarian...

but do you think that any decent raid will have a paladin among the dedicated tanks?... because that's what the op was asking at some point?... and no, i don't mean while doing obsolete content like raiding MC in T2-2.5...

Yes, I mean some T4 + other random pieces appropriate for pally tanking. That's the first tanking set paladins have received since scholomance -- warriors have had an enormous gear advantage in this area for a long time. People have reported being able to do this; not being in beta myself, I just have to take their word for it.

Your advantage as a warrior with last stand/shield wall is that you can control when you use it, even if you're at full health if you know a spike(or several) is incoming; a prot paladin's advantage is ardent defender kicking in at 20% health -- all damage is reduced by a further 50% without needing to activate anything; it's always there. Combine it with the other mitigation talents, emergency bubble/selfheal/taunt, LoH, and a few pots and it does work well enough for the 5man stuff.

As discussed earlier in the thread, we still figure raid maintanks will be prot warriors, and that prot paladins will offtank as needed, then heal at other times. And yes, I do mean this is when content is being initially explored; Blizzard have stated that paladins are supposed to be needed as tanks for some of the new raid stuff they're creating. We'll have to see if that's the case later.

The difference between a prot spec paladin and a holy/ret spec paladin, in terms of mitigation, is much larger than the difference between prot and non-prot warriors.

Edit: Basically, having 5 mans consist of 1 of 4 healer classes, anybody as a dpser, but then requiring 1 class - warrior - as a tank was silly; paladins could tank all the 5 mans when levelling 1-60, but then quickly fell behind warriors when raid content arrived; this was partly due to itemization, and partly due to a fairly crappy prot tree. But giving the alliance an extra tank when horde couldn't have them wouldn't sit well with players; so now, both sides get pallies, and large improvements have been made to talents, and proper itemization provided so they can tank nearly everything. Just not *quite* as well as a warrior can. So warriors are still preferred, but are not absolutely necessary outside of raid maintanking anymore.