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View Full Version : WoW-EU Warrior Talent Review


Meloy
28-12-2006, 06:55 PM
Posted my own revamp of the current warrior talent tree system mainly 'cos I for one feel considerably left out compared to everyone else :(

Thought some of you might wanna see what other warriors think of our current situation :)

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=102850501&sid=1

Meloy

XeX4
30-12-2006, 05:22 AM
when they say in foruns, that blizzard dont give a rats ass to complaining...

thank God is like that! They do a far more better job then 99% of the requests i see regarding warriors!

Stim
30-12-2006, 10:33 AM
blizzard dont give a rats ass about anything... they do some weird stuff many people don't approve. Seems like diffirent teams are working on classes balance, warriors got nerf nerds and druids got buff lunatics.

Chonar
30-12-2006, 10:38 AM
I like it. With some more snare / stun "resistance" like the ones you suggested, the fights would gain some more unpredictability.

Kabhanda
30-12-2006, 10:55 AM
Improved Heroic Strike : Added a threat reduction to the move

First talent you suggest a change to shows you have no idea how to play a warrior at all (hint: HS is a tanking move, imp HS a tanking talent, threat reduction is fucking retarded)

The entire talent tree you have suggested is a total joke, everything is a 'buff' to warrior DPS, and the prot changes show you have no idea at all of how to tank (or raid at all), you add things saying its 'to make things easier for a new MT' and yet don't seem to consider at all how broken this would make an experienced full tier 3 tank, as an example the changes to imp def stance and vitality are enough to change KT's single target frostbolt from something you need to interupt or have a very high chance of tank death to something you can comfortably heal.

Senister
30-12-2006, 11:58 AM
You got Khlysti'ed!

Moomonde
30-12-2006, 12:12 PM
Khlysti thinks your perception of the warrior class is incorrect, and that your ideas are not good.

Actually, why bother polishing up his views, a response like that makes me think he's a wanka

Kathra
30-12-2006, 01:12 PM
You got Khlysti'ed!


Senister wins

Thrane
30-12-2006, 01:54 PM
everything is a 'buff' to warrior DPS,

It is? Where? I'm not looking at Arms here. I see two talents in fury that might increase dps a wee bit. The Red Mist thing. However that would still get us back to our old prerage nerf self (ie. restricted by threat and cooldowns). And the change to whirlwind making it cost less rage (But hey, guess what, we usually don't have the rage to put that in a dps cycle anymore).

So what else do you see as a dps buff? Changed rampage? It's still an utter shit talent. (Not to mention it's instantly up to it's 5 stacks already anyway). And the change to 20 rage isn't much of a buff either since it'll be like that in 2.0.3 already.

You actually read it? Or have you joined those retards looking at warrior dps on our gimmick fights now?

I do agree on the HS and prot thing though.

Kabhanda
30-12-2006, 02:09 PM
Talent changes proposed in that post which will boost warrior dps in either pvp or pve:

Improved Heroic Strike, Improved Rend, Deep Wounds, Two-Handed Weapon Specialization, Improved Mortal Strike, Red Mist, Rampage.

In addition there is a wide range of snare resistance/imunities which will massively boost pvp damage.

Its a talent tree made by someone who just wants to 'buff' warriors with no concept of game balance and (it seems) no knowledge of playing a warrior.

Stim
30-12-2006, 02:15 PM
who just wants to 'buff' warriors with no concept of game balance
ohhh... evil... yep, warriors are ridiculously overpowered now and can mutilate any other class so easily... oh.. wait... they don't... crap

Thrane
30-12-2006, 02:16 PM
Talent changes proposed in that post which will boost warrior dps in either pvp or pve:

Improved Heroic Strike, Improved Rend, Deep Wounds, Two-Handed Weapon Specialization, Improved Mortal Strike, Red Mist, Rampage.

In addition there is a wide range of snare resistance/imunities which will massively boost pvp damage.

Its a talent tree made by someone who just wants to 'buff' warriors with no concept of game balance and (it seems) no knowledge of playing a warrior.

Yes well, I said I was ignoring the arms bit :P And like I said. Rampage isn't a buff since it'll happen anyway. (the fact that it's the 4 next succesful ones isn't much a buff, they'd probably get it bugged so it fails when the mob dodges or something :P)

Imp HS. Wouldn't make it ever anyway so wouldn't be much of a boost. Imp Rend.. damage boost? OH YES! 2 MORE DPS!!!. Deep Wounds? Hardly. 2H spec. Hey look at that, it's the same as pallies 2h spec. Imp MS. Maybe.

Or do you think it's normal that if a mage can beat me while I have about 5 times his item level for gear? God forbid I might actually have enough damage to do anything in pvp without a pocket healer.

AnteroVipune
30-12-2006, 02:24 PM
You actually read it? Or have you joined those retards looking at warrior dps on our gimmick fights now?

You're accusing Khlysti of being a forum troll (or some shit) while being one at the same time :P GJ Thrane


Or do you think it's normal that if a mage can beat me while I have about 5 times his item level for gear? God forbid I might actually have enough damage to do anything in pvp without a pocket healer.

You DO damage in PVP without healer too. Hell I for one still try to avoid warriors when I can.

Thrane
30-12-2006, 02:26 PM
This is basicly the same as:

You actually read it? Or have you joined those retards looking at warrior dps on our gimmick fights now?

You're accusing Khlysti of being a "forum troll" (or some shit) while being one yourself.

No, that would be me accusing Khlysti of being one of those retards that shouts "NREF WARIORSZ!!!" because he just saw dps meters from Patchwerk/Thaddius/Loltheb or some random big crit warrior pvp vid.

And trying to defend warriors from being accused to do too much damage while they are in essense still a dps class is being a forum troll? Wow.. that's a new one.

AnteroVipune
30-12-2006, 02:27 PM
This is basicly the same as:

You actually read it? Or have you joined those retards looking at warrior dps on our gimmick fights now?

You're accusing Khlysti of being a "forum troll" (or some shit) while being one yourself.

No, that would be me accusing Khlysti of being one of those retards that shouts "NREF WARIORSZ!!!" because he just saw dps meters from Patchwerk/Thaddius/Loltheb or some random big crit warrior pvp vid.

And trying to defend warriors from being accused to do too much damage while they are in essense still a dps class is being a forum troll? Wow.. that's a new one.

Forum troll as in: " WAAA WAA WARRIORS CANT DO SHIT WAAA WAAA WAAA BUFFZ PLZ"

Stim
30-12-2006, 02:31 PM
AnteroVipune are you serious about warriors? I tried fighting some TF rogue a while ago... Kek, he didn't even stunlocked me, just wipe away.
Oh btw here's a CLUE how you differ a pvp build from pve build for most classes: In pvp build warrior can't beat you ^^

Flawless
30-12-2006, 02:32 PM
You mean you didn't kill him?

Gear differance iirc

AnteroVipune
30-12-2006, 02:32 PM
Yeah TF rogue. Good example there. Dude does most of the damage thru armor.

Thrane
30-12-2006, 02:34 PM
Forum troll as in: " WAAA WAA WARRIORS CANT DO SHIT WAAA WAAA WAAA BUFFZ PLZ"

I'm not crying for buffs. I jumped on it because Khly reacted like those small things were gigantic buffs. A few tune ups wouldn't hurt anyone. Although Red Mist is probably a bit too good at proper gear levels yes.

Also.. you said I can still do damage in pvp. Yes... vs rogues.. y'know.. the class that's been our prey for fucking ages. And "I" can do enough damage. I'm also wearing close to the best gear in the game.

What I want is some fun in the warrior class again. Because right now I'm utterly bored with it. And when I've already lost 4% crit (if I wasn't wearing extra items for it) in 3 levels on beta it'll only become worse.

Flawless
30-12-2006, 02:35 PM
Oh btw here's a CLUE how you differ a pvp build from pve build for most classes: In pvp build warrior can't beat you ^^Its fine, learn to play.

AnteroVipune
30-12-2006, 02:49 PM
Bored as in you got used to be the most overpowered class after warlocks?

Thrane
30-12-2006, 02:51 PM
Bored as in you got used to be the most overpowered class after warlocks?

No bored as in I have to wait 5 years for rage. Bored as in I can't even fight off 2 mobs at once in TBC. God forbid I finish a quest where I might get adds!

Oh and most overpowered class after warlocks? That's been 10 patches ago.

Edit: Oh and the most fun I had was back when fury was one big pile of chances. Although I appear to be one of the only warriors to think so.

Stim
30-12-2006, 03:00 PM
Bored as in you got used to be the most overpowered class after warlocks?
This is GOLD! Goes in my sig.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 03:20 PM
Bored as in you got used to be the most overpowered class after warlocks?

As if there's a rogue that can't stun-lock me to death or pop Cloak of Skills if he's specced for it and own me if he knows what he's doing.

P.S. you also get beaten by naked BM hunters :P

Stim
30-12-2006, 03:35 PM
you also get beaten by naked BM hunters QFT!
We don't wanna BM hunters to swarm BGs soon :D

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 03:35 PM
Bored as in you got used to be the most overpowered class after warlocks?

As if there's a rogue that can't stun-lock me to death or pop Cloak of Skills if he's specced for it and own me if he knows what he's doing.

P.S. you also get beaten by naked BM hunters :P

then dont run around with an imp out. You cant stun lock a lock with a sensible pet out.

Kinshara
30-12-2006, 03:47 PM
you also get beaten by naked BM hunters QFT!
We don't wanna BM hunters to swarm BGs soon :D

It'll happen. FotM again :(

Of course, this won't stop them complaining about losing the BG even if they win individual battles... sooo many that just zerg and expect the BG to be won for them while they HK farm.

Tsarina
30-12-2006, 04:05 PM
And "I" can do enough damage.
But not as much as a fury warrior that knows how to spec properly. Get a decent spec, and you'll probably enjoy the warrior class more. I'm very happy about current warrior situation in PvE. (Tanking in lvl 70 dungeons is another story.)

For PvP we're just the same as pre patch. Stop crying.

Thrane
30-12-2006, 04:26 PM
And "I" can do enough damage.
But not as much as a fury warrior that knows how to spec properly. Get a decent spec, and you'll probably enjoy the warrior class more. I'm very happy about current warrior situation in PvE. (Tanking in lvl 70 dungeons is another story.)

For PvP we're just the same as pre patch. Stop crying.

I was talking about PvP. I'm bored because of the lack of rage. Not because "I don't know how to spec properly". Just because I don't take rampage in my current builds doesn't mean I don't know how to spec. Since rampage is only useful on fighting bosses. It's use vs trash/quest mobs is crap.

And guess what, we've stopped raiding! And if you think my only fun in this game is being highest on the dps lists then you don't know me at all. Then again... how could I even expect you to know what warriors are like when you haven't even been there when we were fun to play.

Edit: And of course you enjoy the current PvE situation. You're not in naxx. Since you seem to pride yourself on being first on damage meters.
'Nother edit: I have to admit. Seeing as 2.0.3 should fix the flurry bug I'll probably have a bit more fun as DW again. During levelling I doubt that'll happen though. Not after 63 at least.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 04:28 PM
Bored as in you got used to be the most overpowered class after warlocks?

As if there's a rogue that can't stun-lock me to death or pop Cloak of Skills if he's specced for it and own me if he knows what he's doing.

P.S. you also get beaten by naked BM hunters :P

then dont run around with an imp out. You cant stun lock a lock with a sensible pet out.

The imp is more than a sensible pet - I'd like to have an equal chance against most classes, and not get ganked at the blink of an eye whenever a warrior shows up while I've got a Felhunter out, for example.

But I bet you consider Seduce-nuking to be skills and Drakedog the god of all warlocks?

Robinvi
30-12-2006, 04:42 PM
Warlocks are more than fine.

lrn2play

Oh, and Imps is shit for PvP.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 04:45 PM
Warlocks are more than fine.

lrn2play

Oh, and Imps is shit for PvP.

I never said warlocks are not fine, I replied to AnteroVipune's moronic remark.

And imp is great for PvP, l2play.

PvP = not duels.

Ajial
30-12-2006, 04:47 PM
Thrane: Im in your beard stealing your beerz!

Valoran
30-12-2006, 04:48 PM
Imps are slightly better than no pet at all, but not by much. The other pets actually bring some new options to the table, while the imp does not.

AnteroVipune
30-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Warlocks are more than fine.

lrn2play

Oh, and Imps is shit for PvP.

I never said warlocks are not fine, I replied to AnteroVipune's moronic remark.

And imp is great for PvP, l2play.

PvP = not duels.

I didn't even comment about the pet.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Imps are slightly better than no pet at all, but not by much. The other pets actually bring some new options to the table, while the imp does not.

As I said, the options the other pets bring, as you put it, are against specific classes - the imp gives more of a fair chance against all classes.

Have you people actually ever played a warlock? Things are not always the way they seem to be.

Stim
30-12-2006, 04:52 PM
Why care about PvP=not duels (which is obviously BG)? They require not skill at all, just some gear and tactics... The only true situation can be seen in duel mode 1vs1. Or else we can call warrior most IMBA of all IMBAs because there are 3 priests healing him behind!

Thrane
30-12-2006, 04:53 PM
Warlocks are more than fine.

lrn2play

Oh, and Imps is shit for PvP.

I never said warlocks are not fine, I replied to AnteroVipune's moronic remark.

And imp is great for PvP, l2play.

PvP = not duels.

I didn't even comment about the pet.

Yeh think that was Tosh.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 04:54 PM
Tosh, sorry.

Duckman
30-12-2006, 05:00 PM
jeeez, I almost forgot about the imba talent people on SSE have to create drama :)



/ze Duck

Valoran
30-12-2006, 05:12 PM
Imps are slightly better than no pet at all, but not by much. The other pets actually bring some new options to the table, while the imp does not.

As I said, the options the other pets bring, as you put it, are against specific classes - the imp gives more of a fair chance against all classes.
An extra option or two against specific classes (note the plural), is better than no extra options at all, which is what the imp brings.

"more of a fair chance" a tiny dps increase (fire shield/fireball spam) and some extra stamina aren't as powerful as any of the bonuses the other pets give you, this is what was meant by the statement on imps, and it holds true.

Tsarina
30-12-2006, 05:14 PM
You're right. I'm not in Naxx. I have to trust that the warriors that are there know what they are talking about.
No, that would be me accusing Khlysti of being one of those retards that shouts "NREF WARIORSZ!!!" because he just saw dps meters from Patchwerk/Thaddius/Loltheb or some random big crit warrior pvp vid.




I was talking about PvP. I'm bored because of the lack of rage. I was talking about PvP too. We're just fine. And don't think for one second you have done more PvP as warrior than I have. You even started PvPing as warrior after I did, even if you pride your self in having played warrior "when it was fun". Not in PvP you didn't.


And lose the attitude. You haven't earned the right to be arrogant. Who do you think you are? Khlysti or something?

Thrane
30-12-2006, 05:25 PM
You're right. I'm not in Naxx. I have to trust that the warriors that are there know what they are talking about.
No, that would be me accusing Khlysti of being one of those retards that shouts "NREF WARIORSZ!!!" because he just saw dps meters from Patchwerk/Thaddius/Loltheb or some random big crit warrior pvp vid.




I was talking about PvP. I'm bored because of the lack of rage. I was talking about PvP too. We're just fine. And don't think for one second you have done more PvP as warrior than I have. You even started PvPing as warrior after I did, even if you pride your self in having played warrior "when it was fun". Not in PvP you didn't.


And lose the attitude. You haven't earned the right to be arrogant. Who do you think you are? Khlysti or something?

Where am I arrogant? I was just saying that you don't know what playing fury was like back then. (I also stated that I'm on of few warriors that actually liked it back then, not many people liked the luck based fury).

I never claimed I pvped more than you. I never claimed I'm bored in pvp. Well.. I am but I just don't like pvping much so that was there ages ago. I also pvp'd before you even created Lilska. So don't get that bullshit in your head. You still pvp'd more than me yes. And I never stated that I know more about pvp than you do.

If anyone is arrogant here it's you lately. But I guess three rank 14's does that to you. And how cute. I just said that paying attention at gimmick fights (like the ones I gave there) is just what gives the distorted views. A warrior in the best gear available to him and a rogue in the best gear available. Warrior will not outdps the rogue. That was my point. In BWL this is the other way around.

But again. I don't care about being highest on the dps lists. If I feel like trying, then I'll care.

The thing that's gotten me bored lately is pure pve dps. So no damage taken. Just standing there doing damage. Why is it boring? Because you're starved for rage. But like I said, flurry bug has a lot to do with that. In pvp you'll always have some idiot bashing you in the face before killing your healers so you'll all the rage you'd ever need.

Other than that, rampage has me bored too due to it being so unoriginal. Like I said too, vs bosses it's nice. It's still a 14 dps increase. 14 dps is nice now. 14 dps will be nothing at 70 though.

And with that. I'm not bothering anymore. We stopped raiding so I don't have to bother about that pure pve dps bit anyway.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 05:25 PM
Imps are slightly better than no pet at all, but not by much. The other pets actually bring some new options to the table, while the imp does not.

As I said, the options the other pets bring, as you put it, are against specific classes - the imp gives more of a fair chance against all classes.

Have you people actually ever played a warlock? Things are not always the way they seem to be.

Thats quite the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The imp brings NOTHING to pvp. You might as well have no pet at least you wouldn't look so ignorant. How the hell does an imp help against any class? You might as well have a voidwalker out and use sacrifice, that would be shit but more useful than an imp. Use a puppy or a succubus, either of which is way more useful in any situation.

Oh and I have played a lock in pvp, not that much but some. And I have played against a lot of locks, and funnily all the ones with imps out were free hks.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 05:26 PM
Imps are slightly better than no pet at all, but not by much. The other pets actually bring some new options to the table, while the imp does not.

As I said, the options the other pets bring, as you put it, are against specific classes - the imp gives more of a fair chance against all classes.
An extra option or two against specific classes (note the plural), is better than no extra options at all, which is what the imp brings.

"more of a fair chance" a tiny dps increase (fire shield/fireball spam) and some extra stamina aren't as powerful as any of the bonuses the other pets give you, this is what was meant by the statement on imps, and it holds true.

No, it doesn't hold true when you spent points in talents to enhance your pet - and it's far from a "tiny" dps increase. My imp can easily do 2.5k dmg in 10 seconds with the Black Book.

Edit: obviously the locks you have met have Death Coil bound to the space bar and Fear to F1. I'd beat you any day with my imp out.

Completely clueless.

Moomonde
30-12-2006, 05:29 PM
What
The
Feck

Is going on here?

Ogg
30-12-2006, 05:32 PM
We're trying to explain to Thrane that WoW is a shit game, and that's just the way it is.

Suck it up, or quit.

Corruption
30-12-2006, 05:33 PM
I often use my imp in PvP being an Affliction lock, having my imp around constantly lets me Dark Pact to get 1k mana back a time aswell as the +stamina buff. I dont really like using life tap in PvP as it can put me in a vulnerable position, and i'm normally on the move so I cant stop and eat/drink (which also puts me in a vulnerable position).

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 05:33 PM
Imps are slightly better than no pet at all, but not by much. The other pets actually bring some new options to the table, while the imp does not.

As I said, the options the other pets bring, as you put it, are against specific classes - the imp gives more of a fair chance against all classes.
An extra option or two against specific classes (note the plural), is better than no extra options at all, which is what the imp brings.

"more of a fair chance" a tiny dps increase (fire shield/fireball spam) and some extra stamina aren't as powerful as any of the bonuses the other pets give you, this is what was meant by the statement on imps, and it holds true.

No, it doesn't hold true when you spent points in talents to enhance your pet - and it's far from a "tiny" dps increase. My imp can easily do 2.5k dmg in 10 seconds with the Black Book.

Edit: obviously the locks you have met have Death Coil bound to the space bar and Fear to F1. I'd beat you any day with my imp out.

Completely clueless.

you wouldn't beat me if I fought naked. And ofc in 18 months of pretty solid PvP, every lock I beat was shit.

It is a sad day some who fails so badly at their class can get into BWL to get that shitty trinket (yes less shitty with felguard) even.

Kinshara
30-12-2006, 05:35 PM
Thats quite the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The imp brings NOTHING to pvp. You might as well have no pet at least you wouldn't look so ignorant. .

It brings a moderate amount of ranged dps and an increase in stamina. That's not nothing. It's generally less useful than your other 3 (or 4, if demo specced) normal pets in pvp, but there are occasions when it's a reasonable choice. Ranged nuke spam in AV would be one case.

I've never used it in AB or WSG so far though.



As for the warrior stuff... seems like the trees are even more specialised than before. Some will like that, others won't. Thrane just needs an irl rage -> game rage converter :)

▄ber
30-12-2006, 05:36 PM
Why are people (some who I never expected to go there) lowering themselves at the level of random retards in this thread?

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 05:36 PM
Imps are slightly better than no pet at all, but not by much. The other pets actually bring some new options to the table, while the imp does not.

As I said, the options the other pets bring, as you put it, are against specific classes - the imp gives more of a fair chance against all classes.
An extra option or two against specific classes (note the plural), is better than no extra options at all, which is what the imp brings.

"more of a fair chance" a tiny dps increase (fire shield/fireball spam) and some extra stamina aren't as powerful as any of the bonuses the other pets give you, this is what was meant by the statement on imps, and it holds true.

No, it doesn't hold true when you spent points in talents to enhance your pet - and it's far from a "tiny" dps increase. My imp can easily do 2.5k dmg in 10 seconds with the Black Book.

Edit: obviously the locks you have met have Death Coil bound to the space bar and Fear to F1. I'd beat you any day with my imp out.

Completely clueless.

you wouldn't beat me if I fought naked. And ofc in 18 months of pretty solid PvP, every lock I beat was shit.

It is a sad day some who fails so badly at their class can get into BWL to get that shitty trinket (yes less shitty with felguard) even.

*sigh*

So now I fail in my class? Have you ever even met me in game? Idiot.

While I have brought facts, all you have brought to this topic is utter stupidity.

Ogg
30-12-2006, 05:37 PM
It's pretty insane, the warlocks are in so deep trouble, that they have to extend their struggle to the warrior forums to stand a chance.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 05:38 PM
I dont have to meet you in game...your opinions here give me ample evidence. You simply have no clue how to pvp as a lock.

You are the one who presumes every Lock I ever fought was shit.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 05:40 PM
While I have brought facts, all you have brought to this topic is utter stupidity.

When you bring facts as to why the imp is as you proclaim "shit" I might even care a bit.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 05:48 PM
While I have brought facts, all you have brought to this topic is utter stupidity.

When you bring facts as to why the imp is as you proclaim "shit" I might even care a bit.

Ok why the imp is shit:

1. It does very little dps and adds a minimal about of hp (420hp wont save you ever). 2500 damage in 10 seconds if you spec for it might be possible, I am not convinced having never seen that but sure why not believe you.

2. And now why the imp is shit......Succubus gives free cc. Even if you dont seduce nuke (which lets face it works very very well, go watch Ashens and solk vids for a lesson in how to play with extra cc). Felhound destroys casters.....well if you dont auto spell lock ofc. caster using spell, spell lock and laugh at them as they can do nothing, esp nasty against against healers...devour also nasty for removing buffs like BoF and faps. either of those 2 is vastly superior in any situation.

The imp is so shit as there is 2 way way better choices there. Also how on earth are you speced to have points in improved imp sutff, seems a big waste of 3 points.

Oh and if you didn't care why keep posting (let me guess you are bored)

Tsarina
30-12-2006, 05:48 PM
I also pvp'd before you even created Lilska. So don't get that bullshit in your head.
I'm pretty sure you didn't. Did you do any PvP before you joined CoI? If you did, you're right. (And I'm not talking about 1 random game once in a while to "have a look".)


A warrior in the best gear available to him and a rogue in the best gear available. Warrior will not outdps the rogue. That was my point.
A bit depending on specs (like having rampage if you're fury) and type of fight, but yes. Of course. Should it be any other way? Rogues beat me in certain fights. Mages in others. I'm not always on top on DPS. And I'm not supposed to either. But I'm on top often enough to fill my spot as a DPS class.
What a pointless point to make.



But again. I don't care about being highest on the dps lists. If I feel like trying, then I'll care.
I sure hope that's an attempt to sound laidback and cool and not your actual raid attitude.




And with that. I'm not bothering anymore. We stopped raiding so I don't have to bother about that pure pve dps bit anyway.
So you're happy then? I'm glad to hear :)



Suck it up, or quit.
QFT, I guess.


I'd beat you any day with my imp out.
Does that go for everyone that thinks imp is a stupid pet to use in PvP, or was it only meant for Valoran? Personally, I love warlocks with imp. Even an uber imp like you have.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:02 PM
While I have brought facts, all you have brought to this topic is utter stupidity.

When you bring facts as to why the imp is as you proclaim "shit" I might even care a bit.

Ok why the imp is shit:

1. It does very little dps and adds a minimal about of hp (420hp wont save you ever). 2500 damage in 10 seconds if you spec for it might be possible, I am not convinced having never seen that but sure why not believe you.

2. And now why the imp is shit......Succubus gives free cc. Even if you dont seduce nuke (which lets face it works very very well, go watch Ashens and solk vids for a lesson in how to play with extra cc). Felhound destroys casters.....well if you dont auto spell lock ofc. caster using spell, spell lock and laugh at them as they can do nothing, esp nasty against against healers...devour also nasty for removing buffs like BoF and faps. either of those 2 is vastly superior in any situation.

The imp is so shit as there is 2 way way better choices there. Also how on earth are you speced to have points in improved imp sutff, seems a big waste of 3 points.

Oh and if you didn't care why keep posting (let me guess you are bored)

When you have played long enough with a warlock, you'll learn to never completely rely on your class' CCs.

Tsarina,

No, it doesn't go for everyone - was actually directed to Toshiro. There are of course people who can beat me. :)

Oh, and I have also spent points in Improved Firebolt, Toshiro.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=AVZcxZxxbtM0tAu

Thrane
30-12-2006, 06:03 PM
I also pvp'd before you even created Lilska. So don't get that bullshit in your head.
I'm pretty sure you didn't. Did you do any PvP before you joined CoI? If you did, you're right. (And I'm not talking about 1 random game once in a while to "have a look".) I even pvp'd with you in the premade :P Quite a few times even due to not raiding yet so pvp was all I could do ^^ (I even got scolded by Yin for autoleaving the group with some addon a few times :P)



A warrior in the best gear available to him and a rogue in the best gear available. Warrior will not outdps the rogue. That was my point.
A bit depending on specs (like having rampage if you're fury) and type of fight, but yes. Of course. Should it be any other way? Rogues beat me in certain fights. Mages in others. I'm not always on top on DPS. And I'm not supposed to either. But I'm on top often enough to fill my spot as a DPS class.
What a pointless point to make.

Point was more that being around mages and rogues is fine (and atm we still are). Most stuff we see from TBC shows otherwise though (although I guess that when we have Black Temple gear it'll be like that again.) I also have no idea why I even made that point :P



But again. I don't care about being highest on the dps lists. If I feel like trying, then I'll care.
I sure hope that's an attempt to sound laidback and cool and not your actual raid attitude.

Depends on the fight. On fights like Thaddius and Loltheb where we need all the dps we need of course I try to push out every bit I can get. Doesn't mean I'll still care much if someone else has done more than me though. If someone else I know wouldn't reach me if I try got above me, then I'll care.



And with that. I'm not bothering anymore. We stopped raiding so I don't have to bother about that pure pve dps bit anyway.
So you're happy then? I'm glad to hear :)

Myes, I am. (Except for all those debts I have :( And intercept bug! Fix plx! :()

Anyway, we derailed this thread enough methinks! I'ma go play Zelda nowz!

Tsarina
30-12-2006, 06:11 PM
Tsarina,

No, it doesn't go for everyone - was actually directed to Toshiro. There are of course people who can beat me. :) I'm sure Toshiro will be more than happy to meet you.

I even pvp'd with you in the premade :P Quite a few times even due to not raiding yet so pvp was all I could do ^^ (I even got scolded by Yin for autoleaving the group with some addon a few times :P)
Ah, ok. You're right then. But that must have been with my priest, so you can't have been that far ahead.



Anyway, we've spiced up this otherwise boring thread and should be proud!
You're quite right.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 06:12 PM
While I have brought facts, all you have brought to this topic is utter stupidity.

When you bring facts as to why the imp is as you proclaim "shit" I might even care a bit.

Ok why the imp is shit:

1. It does very little dps and adds a minimal about of hp (420hp wont save you ever). 2500 damage in 10 seconds if you spec for it might be possible, I am not convinced having never seen that but sure why not believe you.

2. And now why the imp is shit......Succubus gives free cc. Even if you dont seduce nuke (which lets face it works very very well, go watch Ashens and solk vids for a lesson in how to play with extra cc). Felhound destroys casters.....well if you dont auto spell lock ofc. caster using spell, spell lock and laugh at them as they can do nothing, esp nasty against against healers...devour also nasty for removing buffs like BoF and faps. either of those 2 is vastly superior in any situation.

The imp is so shit as there is 2 way way better choices there. Also how on earth are you speced to have points in improved imp sutff, seems a big waste of 3 points.

Oh and if you didn't care why keep posting (let me guess you are bored)

When you have played long enough with a warlock, you'll learn to never completely rely on your class' CCs.

Tsarina,

No, it doesn't go for everyone - was actually directed to Toshiro. There are of course people who can beat me. :)

Oh, and I have also spent points in Improved Firebolt, Toshiro.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=AVZcxZxxbtM0tAu

so you wont rely on cc? But rely on a tiny bit extra hp and dps...that is utterly retarded reasoning. How much have you pvped as a lock?

And you have as much chance of beating me as england have of beating australia in the ashes.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:17 PM
While I have brought facts, all you have brought to this topic is utter stupidity.

When you bring facts as to why the imp is as you proclaim "shit" I might even care a bit.

Ok why the imp is shit:

1. It does very little dps and adds a minimal about of hp (420hp wont save you ever). 2500 damage in 10 seconds if you spec for it might be possible, I am not convinced having never seen that but sure why not believe you.

2. And now why the imp is shit......Succubus gives free cc. Even if you dont seduce nuke (which lets face it works very very well, go watch Ashens and solk vids for a lesson in how to play with extra cc). Felhound destroys casters.....well if you dont auto spell lock ofc. caster using spell, spell lock and laugh at them as they can do nothing, esp nasty against against healers...devour also nasty for removing buffs like BoF and faps. either of those 2 is vastly superior in any situation.

The imp is so shit as there is 2 way way better choices there. Also how on earth are you speced to have points in improved imp sutff, seems a big waste of 3 points.

Oh and if you didn't care why keep posting (let me guess you are bored)

When you have played long enough with a warlock, you'll learn to never completely rely on your class' CCs.

Tsarina,

No, it doesn't go for everyone - was actually directed to Toshiro. There are of course people who can beat me. :)

Oh, and I have also spent points in Improved Firebolt, Toshiro.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=AVZcxZxxbtM0tAu

so you wont rely on cc? But rely on a tiny bit extra hp and dps...that is utterly retarded reasoning. How much have you pvped as a lock?

And you have as much chance of beating me as england have of beating australia in the ashes.

No, I hardly rely on CC on 1vs1. And of course, having 5.8k HP is tiny, /nod.

I've PvPed enough with both a warlock and a paladin toon.

Valoran
30-12-2006, 06:20 PM
Yet by having a succy or felhunter out, you'd have a better chance of winning in any pvp encounter than you would with an imp out. That's indisputable. You don't have to rely on CC to recognise that it's a highly useful ability, the moronic part is not using something because you have a low opinion of people who do, or the ability in general. To make it even worse, you deny it has any viablity at all and claim that other less effective means can reach the same goal, as obvious as that is.

Stim
30-12-2006, 06:22 PM
the moronic part is not using something because you have a low opinion of people who do, or the ability in general
that's called denying abusing

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:24 PM
They keyword is *certain* PvP encounters. Surely I have more of a chance against a warrior with an imp out than a Felhunter? And I hardly see the pointing of Seducing people in PvP as most of the times I face Undead, anyway (yes that 1 second it lasts, might be useful but not too useful). Damaging them is actually more useful, try it.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 06:25 PM
EXTRA was the key word. you have 430hp extra from the imp....please read then sarcasm it works better that way.

Well lets see how much have you pvp'd? not much I would of thought, I cant remember seeing you so you cant of been any good before xserver. So since then I guess. Not exactly a long time.

And still you want to prove to me how good imps are I will happily duel you and kill you 10 times in a row with your imp out....I will be shocked if you got me to 80%.

Kabhanda
30-12-2006, 06:29 PM
My priest has over 5k self buffed, so yeah I would say 5.8k is fuck all for a caster who has stamina as a primary stat.

Now, I don't really pvp with the priest anymore, but 'back in the day' I did do quite well in the two dueling league contest thing we had, and had alot of 1v1s in wsg (before tsar's hunter was GM), so now we have set the scene...

Imp is fucking awful for pvp, even with a raid set holy spec I can one shot the thing if I for some reason decide I can't cope with the dps it throws at me. However a succubus requires some far more inventive play, so even if it doesn't cause me much of a problem it does require me to actually deal with it, giving the lock more time to act. Dogs on the other hand pretty much mean I can't touch the lock at all.

Next scene, I pvped for a while on my warrior while tsar was gming his priest/maggi was gming his. This time I found locks generally to be total fodder unless they were full destro seduce nukers.

Recently I have been getting some cheap GM gear for my mage (mainly by corpse camping Muh, but I do BGs aswell), most locks I will avoid unless I have backup, however if I see an imp or a voidwalker I know I not only have a good chance to win but I have already won. (yeah a good lock could beat me petless, but a good lock uses a decent pet in pvp).

Now, with these three characters I have pvped with I use CC extensively with all of them, to me the mark of competance between one player and another is whether they know when to just CC someone rather than kill them, dogs and girlies can both help CC (spell lock / seduce) but an imp brings no utility at all.

Anyway enough of that, lets mock thrane more for being a lazy cunt who cries too much.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 06:33 PM
They keyword is *certain* PvP encounters. Surely I have more of a chance against a warrior with an imp out than a Felhunter? And I hardly see the pointing of Seducing people in PvP as most of the times I face Undead, anyway (yes that 1 second it lasts, might be useful but not too useful). Damaging them is actually more useful, try it.

Good God your justification gets more retarted everytime.....

do you never use fear? maybe them having to use wotf to break seduce is useful as you can then fear.

The minimal gain against one class doesn;t compare to what the extra options the other pets bring.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:35 PM
EXTRA was the key word. you have 430hp extra from the imp....please read then sarcasm it works better that way.

Well lets see how much have you pvp'd? not much I would of thought, I cant remember seeing you so you cant of been any good before xserver. So since then I guess. Not exactly a long time.

And still you want to prove to me how good imps are I will happily duel you and kill you 10 times in a row with your imp out....I will be shocked if you got me to 80%.

It's 540 extra HP, since I got the talents for it.

And why do you keep repeating yourself on how your mightiness would beat me? I've heard it the first time.

Khlysti,

The reason you found locks so easy with your warrior, is because they didn't know what the fuck to do without their precious Fear - that's right, you have to DPS, not stand and get beaten while frantically trying to cast Fear.

Oh, and isn't your priest in t3? No wonder.

I've already gone over the imp thing so I won't bother commenting that.


This is my last post on this matter. What was to be said has been said. I have my opinions and you have yours. I have a lock, you have a priest. Obviously you know better,

Kabhanda
30-12-2006, 06:39 PM
Coldpwa, do you not get that even in the 'poor' gear level my warrior had I could kill a warlock before they can cast a non instant spell? Without a succu and deathcoil not up a warlock *is* fodder for melee, and imp will not help that, are you just ignoring this point for fun? I don't care how well you think you can do vs melee with an imp, with a succu you WOULD do better.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:41 PM
Coldpwa, do you not get that even in the 'poor' gear level my warrior had I could kill a warlock before they can cast a non instant spell? Without a succu and deathcoil not up a warlock *is* fodder for melee, and imp will not help that, are you just ignoring this point for fun? I don't care how well you think you can do vs melee with an imp, with a succu you WOULD do better.

Yes, I would do better against melee. I never denied that. But you can't exactly switch a pet every time you see a different class strolling towards you in a battleground.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 06:42 PM
actually you started on the how you would beat me with your imp out...dont be such a coward and some and try it. Prove your pointless crap you are trying to justify with actions.

Oh and is a person only allowed to have one char? you rolled coldpwa in May right? so you have 7 months of playing a lock...not that much experience really tbh.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:43 PM
actually you started on the how you would beat me with your imp out...dont be such a coward and some and try it. Prove your pointless crap you are trying to justify with actions.

Oh and is a person only allowed to have one char? you rolled coldpwa in May right? so you have 7 months of playing a lock...not that much experience really tbh.

Since when are you a melee class?

I have more experience than you playing someone else's toon once or twice. Also, this is my second warlock.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 06:45 PM
Actually I play a rogue now. So I have seen the shitness of locks with imp out from the persective of melee and ranged dps, both magic and as a hunter.

Honestly....it is this simple. You would do better in PvP with a different pet. Try it.

Utena
30-12-2006, 06:46 PM
This thread fails for completely losing track.
To the player who started the thread, look over the talents & try to figure out how they would apply to different levels, gear & situations. Then maybe rework them to give them a more balanced effect, try looking at how blizzard have added & changed talents in the past for inspiration.

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:47 PM
Actually I play a rogue now. So I have seen the shitness of locks with imp out from the persective of melee and ranged dps, both magic and as a hunter.

Honestly....it is this simple. You would do better in PvP with a different pet. Try it.

I have PvPed with all pets and I made my choice. Let's end this here.

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 06:50 PM
I keep telling you prove you can win. You fail as a lock in PvP as you use the wrong pet gimping yourself.

Maybe you had less experience back when you tried all the different pets...try again. Stop being shit and improve yourself.

▄ber
30-12-2006, 06:50 PM
Coldpwa, do you not get that even in the 'poor' gear level my warrior had I could kill a warlock before they can cast a non instant spell? Without a succu and deathcoil not up a warlock *is* fodder for melee, and imp will not help that, are you just ignoring this point for fun? I don't care how well you think you can do vs melee with an imp, with a succu you WOULD do better.

Yes, I would do better against melee. I never denied that. But you can't exactly switch a pet every time you see a different class strolling towards you in a battleground.

And that is why you should keep your felpuppy summoned always. Usable against every class tbh.

*Waits for some randomtell guy to ask how it will help against warriors*

Coldpwa
30-12-2006, 06:52 PM
I keep telling you prove you can win. You fail as a lock in PvP as you use the wrong pet gimping yourself.

Maybe you had less experience back when you tried all the different pets...try again. Stop being shit and improve yourself.

....

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 06:55 PM
I keep telling you prove you can win. You fail as a lock in PvP as you use the wrong pet gimping yourself.

Maybe you had less experience back when you tried all the different pets...try again. Stop being shit and improve yourself.

....

yes well done locks use dots. Or do you not bother since some classes can dispell them?

Robinvi
30-12-2006, 07:15 PM
Im not gonna bother quoting etc as i find it to time consuming, so here is just a few commenst on random posts:

Why should a hybrid class do more dps than a DPS class anyways? (Rogue vs Warrior).

Imp IS shit, stop the fucking arguing. If you don't know that ALL the other minions are FAR more effective in PvP you DON'T know how to play a warlock (even if: "But lolz, i gotz ze talentses that gievs muhc mroe HP and fukcng imba dps aganst all classz").

Watching a Warlock pvp movie would clearify much. Try do that and then make your own Vid where you use mouseclicking skills and an Imp. I would REALLY like to see this in action.

The game isn't completly balanced, but as long as you actually know how to play your class you can own pretty much everything (exept the few other that actually do maybe).

Oh, and dules ain't just gear and luck, if you think so you are a complete retard, seriosly. If you can't beat anyone in a duel, you would also be complete shit in PvP. Duels is a good way to show skills and knowledge of your opponents class witch is VERY needed in PvP. To be a good pvp'er it isn't enough to just know what you class can do, you got to know what your enemy can do to you. Ofc there is many other aspects of PvP, but im not gonna go further into it, so don't quote me on missing bits.

Harshak
30-12-2006, 07:20 PM
People here seem to be missing the point:

Buff rougez

Toshiro
30-12-2006, 07:29 PM
People here seem to be missing the point:

Buff rougez

very true. CoS is not enough!!! Gief more dps

Chonar
30-12-2006, 07:31 PM
And that is why you should keep your felpuppy summoned always. Usable against every class tbh.

*Waits for some randomtell guy to ask how it will help against warriors*


ROAST BEEF TAG

Stim
30-12-2006, 07:38 PM
People here seem to be missing the point:

Buff rougez

very true. CoS is not enough!!! Gief more dps
give all tbh :?

Ogg
30-12-2006, 08:45 PM
And that is why you should keep your felpuppy summoned always. Usable against every class tbh.

*Waits for some randomtell guy to ask how it will help against warriors*


ROAST BEEF TAG



Nyam?

Kinshara
30-12-2006, 09:25 PM
And that is why you should keep your felpuppy summoned always. Usable against every class tbh.

*Waits for some randomtell guy to ask how it will help against warriors*


ROAST BEEF TAG



Nyam?

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/703/703289/episode-16-fast-times-in-arathi-basin-20060425054629469.jpg

From Flintlocke.

Chonar
30-12-2006, 10:11 PM
wii wtf?

thurlog
31-12-2006, 01:41 AM
glad this topic changed into a warlock discussion coz debating about selfmade talent-suggestions is even more retarded.

AnteroVipune
31-12-2006, 03:26 AM
I will now end this discussion with an old indian saying: "SHUT THE FUCK UP. Ante is better than you anyway".

A wise man with a bottle told me that. or was it in a bottle.

Toshiro
31-12-2006, 03:32 AM
I will now end this discussion with an old indian saying: "SHUT THE FUCK UP. Ante is better than you anyway".

A wise man with a bottle told me that. or was it in a bottle.

It was a goldfish.

Thrane
31-12-2006, 12:37 PM
I will now end this discussion with an old indian saying: "SHUT THE FUCK UP. Ante is better than you anyway".

A wise man with a bottle told me that. or was it in a bottle.

It was a goldfish.

After you emptied the bottle.

Kzuhl
31-12-2006, 01:54 PM
Self-made talent changes are auto fail most of the time, so why bother. What actually helps is giving feedback of what you think is wrong or doesn't work at the moment, the Devs, if they agree, will find a solution themselves. Recently there was an interesting thread regarding warrior concerns, that may or may not have an effect eventually. More worth reading than anything Ante says for sure!

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=59333288&pageNo=1

XeX4
31-12-2006, 02:44 PM
everything is a 'buff' to warrior DPS,

It is? Where? I'm not looking at Arms here. I see two talents in fury that might increase dps a wee bit. The Red Mist thing. However that would still get us back to our old prerage nerf self (ie. restricted by threat and cooldowns). And the change to whirlwind making it cost less rage (But hey, guess what, we usually don't have the rage to put that in a dps cycle anymore).

So what else do you see as a dps buff? Changed rampage? It's still an utter shit talent. (Not to mention it's instantly up to it's 5 stacks already anyway). And the change to 20 rage isn't much of a buff either since it'll be like that in 2.0.3 already.

You actually read it? Or have you joined those retards looking at warrior dps on our gimmick fights now?

I do agree on the HS and prot thing though.
I read it! I am DPS warrior! I dont think your ideas are the least interesting.

In fact i think what you have said doesnt take in consideration the balance of the class or game. I dont think U know your class in pvp, since with some of thoose changes, warriors would be unstopable (and unstopable its the right word) in pvp.

A warrior is already a tremendous force, when backuped by a raid with some healing he can do wicked things. In dueling we lack, but we cant have a class that can do tanking, dps, pvp, and own in duels... dueling its not even a base way of play the game. Its for fun, and training your reflexes and agility with they keyborad.

With all do respect for U, moust of your ideas are just stupid, and the others are useless...

So i have to agree with Khlysti wich seems to be a priest, and knows more then U of your class!

XeX4
31-12-2006, 02:56 PM
I'm not crying for buffs. I jumped on it because Khly reacted like those small things were gigantic buffsthey were!

Thrane
31-12-2006, 03:03 PM
I'm not crying for buffs. I jumped on it because Khly reacted like those small things were gigantic buffsthey were!

For dps :P The anti cc stuff was pretty imba yeh :P

Also! We were discussing coldpwa's imp here!! ^^

Kinshara
31-12-2006, 03:06 PM
I'm not crying for buffs. I jumped on it because Khly reacted like those small things were gigantic buffsthey were!

For dps :P The anti cc stuff was pretty imba yeh :P

Also! We were discussing coldpwa's imp here!! ^^

We need the name of the imp tbh. Does it inspire fear in coldpwa's enemies? Or just make them double over in laughter while he kills them?

Thrane
31-12-2006, 03:12 PM
I don't know :( I tend to die to dots! :( NREF!!

XeX4
31-12-2006, 03:16 PM
I'm not crying for buffs. I jumped on it because Khly reacted like those small things were gigantic buffsthey were!

For dps :P The anti cc stuff was pretty imba yeh :P

Also! We were discussing coldpwa's imp here!! ^^
Not sure if i understood your post...

U are saying that the changes he sugested are more to increase dps then to help (anihalate all others) in pvp?

Kinshara
31-12-2006, 03:22 PM
Not sure if i understood your post...

U are saying that the changes he sugested are more to increase dps then to help (anihalate all others) in pvp?

Think he said the changes for dps were small, but the effect of the anti-CC talents would be huge. (please correct if I'm wrong, Thrane :) )

Thrane
31-12-2006, 03:25 PM
Not sure if i understood your post...

U are saying that the changes he sugested are more to increase dps then to help (anihalate all others) in pvp?

Think he said the changes for dps were small, but the effect of the anti-CC talents would be huge. (please correct if I'm wrong, Thrane :) )

Yeh pretty much. Well.. mainly the changes in fury would be. Like I said, didn't look much at arms stuff :P

Coldpwa
31-12-2006, 04:20 PM
Belnip is the name :o

Chonar
31-12-2006, 04:59 PM
I demand 20% more HP per stamina point.

Utena
31-12-2006, 05:05 PM
Warning incoming /wall of text quote by some Mage named Xosa on U.S mug'thol

In a game where balance is desired for both PvE and PvP, both aspects must be analyzed, and sadly, WoW's PvP side has been neglected to the point that the warriors have reached a melt-down point.

In the basic melee VS ranged equation, the route is giving the melee a considerable damage boost over ranged simply because their ability to do damage is limited to a short distance. To counter this, ranged classes must have ways to break away from melee range. In WoW, the ranged classes do indeed have many ways to get at range to be viable. The problem is that their burst damage (which is what is important in PvP) is exponentially greater than the melee's in the current design. +spell damage was already making this painfully clear before 2.0 was released, and then after the patch, the effect of +spell damage was buffed even more, widening the gap. Caster gear burst DPS output far exceeds that of the melee classes. The supposed counter to that is low mitigation and low HP of caster classes (aka squishies) to melee damage, but itemization with high-end raiding gear and epic PvP gear has boosted ranged armor and HP in addition to massively increasing their DPS output, which has further reduced the melee players to effectively "do their job" during those short moments that they are in melee range.

So what is the current state of the game in regards to PvP from a meleer's perspective?

Challenges:
- Warriors must close the gap that ranges from 20-40 yards down to 5 or fewer yards
- Ranged burst damage output has reached a point where they can easily chew through 5k-6k HP with relative ease with simple PvP reward and low level raiding gear.
- Once the warrior is in range, they almost always have to break through a 500-1k+ damage shield before they can even gain a single point of rage, hindering their ability do any damage in the short time that they can stay in melee range due to the next point
- The ability of ranged classes to keep melee at a distance works exceedingly well for ranged classes. Warriors can only break these snares/roots by using the PvP trinket (5 minute cooldown) or a free action potion (consumable - 3 minute cooldown)
- Warriors have 2 ways of closing the gap to melee distance - Charge (OOC only) and intercept (30 second cooldown, malfunctioning, and 10 rage cost). Both of which are half the distance many ranged classes can nuke from with impunity, further reducing the functionality of these abilities when snared or brought into combat before getting into range, and with the long cooldowns these abilities to close distance are easily negated with stuns, snares, charms, fears, and root effects.

So if a warrior is to do any damage whatsoever, they must not only be in range for an extended period of time, not only must they survive, but they also have to "zerg" DPS down their target before their target burns them down first. A very unwieldy, and in practice, unreliable and impractical form of gameplay, particularly when the push of 1 button can completely nullify the warrior before any rage can be generated, and any damage can be dealt before the ranged class is once again, in their prime zone where the warrior can do nothing. Not to mention that even in close quarters, the ranged classes can still deal comparable damage.

The Current "Solutions:"

- "Find a healer"

While a sound theory, and a powerful combination when the right levels of gear and player ability are combined, being pigeon-holed into this style of play is counter-productive to the goal of a videogame, which is to have fun. Healers do not always want to play heal-bot, especially after spending hours upon hours being forced into it in a raiding environment. The majority of the PvPing playerbase does not PvP in organized groups, rather they PvP in PUGs, and with no virtual authority to dangle over a PUG player's head, the chances of receiving those critical heals and support that a warrior is required to have in order to be effective makes this "solution" a failure in practice. Additionally, healers have no real incentive to keep a warrior alive should they decide to play a support role over other classes, as ranged classes and rogues are far more viable bodyguards with their multitude of CC options. While the warrior design is great for PvE application, this model effectively forces players who are warriors to endure endless battlefield helplessness as they are chain-CC'd by ranged and melee classes alike with no viable counters. This is not fun for warriors nor healers.

- Use consumables/trinkets/engineering

While these can provide a small boost that will sometimes sway the fight in a warrior's favor, they too have their own flaws. Consumables are far too costly to be used as a crutch for the small return you get on your investment in addition to having long cooldowns. The PvP trinkets again have far too long of a cooldown to be a viable counter. Engineering items can be very helpful. The problem is that the trinkets require one to be OOC and have 30 seconds of prep time, are too situational to provide a viable counter. The consumable engineering items also have a long cooldown, and are far too costly to rely on without massive amounts of farming/buying resources to be a viable counter. Additionally, all classes gain their own benefits from all these methods, negating each other when two players utilize these avenues against each other.

- Wear resist gear

Unfortunately, the gain from resist gear is too minimal for the amount of stats that must be sacrificed to make them effective (100 resist for 25% reduction, 200 for 50% reduction, 300 for 75% reduction). They are also situational, and while providing an underwhelming counter to particular magic schools, they leave you just as vulnerable to other schools. In effect, not only do you gimp your ability to defeat the person of the school of magic that you stack resistance for, you leave yourself wide open to all other schools of magic damage.

- "Learn2stamina"

While a great theory to pad your HP enough to withstand a full mana bar's worth of damage from those ranged classes while you are helplessly snared and rooted, waiting for intercept to cooldown, or to catch a lucky break in combat to charge, the current itemization for ranged classes, as well as the aforementioned problem of said ranged classes still being DPS power-houses at melee range makes this route impractical as well. While the likelihood of surviving the nukes while snared/rooted is greatly increased by reaching the 6k HP threshold, it does little good against the majority of players who have been dedicated to maximizing their characters' gear over the last 6 months to 2 years, as they can generally chew through 8k-12k HP before they are forced to fallback on wands/auto-attacks. This doesn't even take into account what happens when another player decides to join in against you mid-fight as is all too common in BGs.


In the end, the current "solutions" that are doable are mere bandaids on a hemorrhaging amputated limb (in the warrior's case, the legs). While finding a healer can greatly improve the player's ability to be effective in a group setting, it cuts the rest of the group off at the knees as the warrior requires 95% of the healer's attention, and when heals are interrupted, the warrior has no viable means of protecting the healer via taunts or CC effects.

Talent issues:
It's no secret that the current 41 point talents for warriors are lackluster (and that's putting it kindly). Every class has at least 1 tree that specializes them for PvE functionality, however these trees have recently received high tier talents that buff their PvP functionality, and vice-versa, the PvP oriented trees have received high tier talents that buff their PvE functionality. Warriors cannot claim the same in this regard. While protection spec warriors have become slightly more PvP viable compared to pre-2.0, their lack of ability to taunt or consistently CC in PvP make them ineffective for "PvP tanking" and the DPS ability that is sacrificed to spec protection reduces solo and group viability to negligible amounts. On the flip side of the coin, post-patch, arms/fury warriors have no real buffs to support PvE necessities in tanking and DPS. In the end, warriors have lost all around. While Tseric may have stated that warriors were "overpowered" and in "need" of a nerf pre-2.0, the effect of the changes has rendered the class as requiring extreme specialization into DPS or tanking, and excelling at neither in comparison all other classes that were buffed with the patch.

If warriors can not have a pocket healer at all times (which let's face it, it is largely impossible for the majority WoW players with any class), talents/abilities need to offset their lack of a personal heal potion following them around. Second wind is a step in the right direction, but the low amount of HP healed, and the long time it takes to actually recieve any benefit from the HOT negates its usefulness. Blood craze is the same. Too little restoration of HP, too long to get the full effect. A decently geared caster can burn through an awesomely geared warrior's HP before the caster's CC even wears off (essentially you die before your keyboard is plugged back in, that is not balanced).

I could continue, but this post is long enough as it is. In essence, warriors are not asking to be an alpha class, they are not asking to be guaranteed a win in every fight, they are not asking for their design to be broken and rebuilt. They are simply asking for the current extreme imbalances against them to be addressed so that they can have fun with the $15/mo. that they pay to play this game. As much as group PvP balance is touted, you can not stick to that claim when 8 out of 9 classes are viable for solo play and also effective in a group setting.

Kinshara
31-12-2006, 05:21 PM
I demand 20% more HP per stamina point.

Roll a druid and go feral bear then. :P

Kzuhl
31-12-2006, 05:55 PM
I also liked this post when I read it, cristo. The conclusion I drew was that PvP and PvE balance/spells need to be completely seperated systems. A ranged class with CC and HIGH damage will always be overpowered against melee. A ranged (read: dps) class with LOW damage will always be useless in PvE. That's kinda like not working together well.

Attempts of the Devs to increase a warriors mitigation against magic/ranged in pvp only are a mere bandaid fix, because either magic/ranged PvE encounters have to be rebalanced around new mitigation formulas. Or blizzard has to implement skills that work on player characters only, which may or may not be possible. At the moment there are only spells that are limited to use on NPCs, but not the other way around.

Mojo
31-12-2006, 07:00 PM
This is basicly the same as:

You actually read it? Or have you joined those retards looking at warrior dps on our gimmick fights now?

You're accusing Khlysti of being a "forum troll" (or some shit) while being one yourself.

No, that would be me accusing Khlysti of being one of those retards that shouts "NREF WARIORSZ!!!" because he just saw dps meters from Patchwerk/Thaddius/Loltheb or some random big crit warrior pvp vid.

And trying to defend warriors from being accused to do too much damage while they are in essense still a dps class is being a forum troll? Wow.. that's a new one.

Forum troll as in: " WAAA WAA WARRIORS CANT DO SHIT WAAA WAAA WAAA BUFFZ PLZ"

Says Ante. Kek :P

Chonar
31-12-2006, 07:40 PM
Warning incoming /wall of text quote by some Mage named Xosa on U.S mug'thol

In a game where balance is desired for both PvE and PvP, both aspects must be analyzed, and sadly, WoW's PvP side has been neglected to the point that the warriors have reached a melt-down point.

In the basic melee VS ranged equation, the route is giving the melee a considerable damage boost over ranged simply because their ability to do damage is limited to a short distance. To counter this, ranged classes must have ways to break away from melee range. In WoW, the ranged classes do indeed have many ways to get at range to be viable. The problem is that their burst damage (which is what is important in PvP) is exponentially greater than the melee's in the current design. +spell damage was already making this painfully clear before 2.0 was released, and then after the patch, the effect of +spell damage was buffed even more, widening the gap. Caster gear burst DPS output far exceeds that of the melee classes. The supposed counter to that is low mitigation and low HP of caster classes (aka squishies) to melee damage, but itemization with high-end raiding gear and epic PvP gear has boosted ranged armor and HP in addition to massively increasing their DPS output, which has further reduced the melee players to effectively "do their job" during those short moments that they are in melee range.

So what is the current state of the game in regards to PvP from a meleer's perspective?

Challenges:
- Warriors must close the gap that ranges from 20-40 yards down to 5 or fewer yards
- Ranged burst damage output has reached a point where they can easily chew through 5k-6k HP with relative ease with simple PvP reward and low level raiding gear.
- Once the warrior is in range, they almost always have to break through a 500-1k+ damage shield before they can even gain a single point of rage, hindering their ability do any damage in the short time that they can stay in melee range due to the next point
- The ability of ranged classes to keep melee at a distance works exceedingly well for ranged classes. Warriors can only break these snares/roots by using the PvP trinket (5 minute cooldown) or a free action potion (consumable - 3 minute cooldown)
- Warriors have 2 ways of closing the gap to melee distance - Charge (OOC only) and intercept (30 second cooldown, malfunctioning, and 10 rage cost). Both of which are half the distance many ranged classes can nuke from with impunity, further reducing the functionality of these abilities when snared or brought into combat before getting into range, and with the long cooldowns these abilities to close distance are easily negated with stuns, snares, charms, fears, and root effects.

So if a warrior is to do any damage whatsoever, they must not only be in range for an extended period of time, not only must they survive, but they also have to "zerg" DPS down their target before their target burns them down first. A very unwieldy, and in practice, unreliable and impractical form of gameplay, particularly when the push of 1 button can completely nullify the warrior before any rage can be generated, and any damage can be dealt before the ranged class is once again, in their prime zone where the warrior can do nothing. Not to mention that even in close quarters, the ranged classes can still deal comparable damage.

The Current "Solutions:"

- "Find a healer"

While a sound theory, and a powerful combination when the right levels of gear and player ability are combined, being pigeon-holed into this style of play is counter-productive to the goal of a videogame, which is to have fun. Healers do not always want to play heal-bot, especially after spending hours upon hours being forced into it in a raiding environment. The majority of the PvPing playerbase does not PvP in organized groups, rather they PvP in PUGs, and with no virtual authority to dangle over a PUG player's head, the chances of receiving those critical heals and support that a warrior is required to have in order to be effective makes this "solution" a failure in practice. Additionally, healers have no real incentive to keep a warrior alive should they decide to play a support role over other classes, as ranged classes and rogues are far more viable bodyguards with their multitude of CC options. While the warrior design is great for PvE application, this model effectively forces players who are warriors to endure endless battlefield helplessness as they are chain-CC'd by ranged and melee classes alike with no viable counters. This is not fun for warriors nor healers.

- Use consumables/trinkets/engineering

While these can provide a small boost that will sometimes sway the fight in a warrior's favor, they too have their own flaws. Consumables are far too costly to be used as a crutch for the small return you get on your investment in addition to having long cooldowns. The PvP trinkets again have far too long of a cooldown to be a viable counter. Engineering items can be very helpful. The problem is that the trinkets require one to be OOC and have 30 seconds of prep time, are too situational to provide a viable counter. The consumable engineering items also have a long cooldown, and are far too costly to rely on without massive amounts of farming/buying resources to be a viable counter. Additionally, all classes gain their own benefits from all these methods, negating each other when two players utilize these avenues against each other.

- Wear resist gear

Unfortunately, the gain from resist gear is too minimal for the amount of stats that must be sacrificed to make them effective (100 resist for 25% reduction, 200 for 50% reduction, 300 for 75% reduction). They are also situational, and while providing an underwhelming counter to particular magic schools, they leave you just as vulnerable to other schools. In effect, not only do you gimp your ability to defeat the person of the school of magic that you stack resistance for, you leave yourself wide open to all other schools of magic damage.

- "Learn2stamina"

While a great theory to pad your HP enough to withstand a full mana bar's worth of damage from those ranged classes while you are helplessly snared and rooted, waiting for intercept to cooldown, or to catch a lucky break in combat to charge, the current itemization for ranged classes, as well as the aforementioned problem of said ranged classes still being DPS power-houses at melee range makes this route impractical as well. While the likelihood of surviving the nukes while snared/rooted is greatly increased by reaching the 6k HP threshold, it does little good against the majority of players who have been dedicated to maximizing their characters' gear over the last 6 months to 2 years, as they can generally chew through 8k-12k HP before they are forced to fallback on wands/auto-attacks. This doesn't even take into account what happens when another player decides to join in against you mid-fight as is all too common in BGs.


In the end, the current "solutions" that are doable are mere bandaids on a hemorrhaging amputated limb (in the warrior's case, the legs). While finding a healer can greatly improve the player's ability to be effective in a group setting, it cuts the rest of the group off at the knees as the warrior requires 95% of the healer's attention, and when heals are interrupted, the warrior has no viable means of protecting the healer via taunts or CC effects.

Talent issues:
It's no secret that the current 41 point talents for warriors are lackluster (and that's putting it kindly). Every class has at least 1 tree that specializes them for PvE functionality, however these trees have recently received high tier talents that buff their PvP functionality, and vice-versa, the PvP oriented trees have received high tier talents that buff their PvE functionality. Warriors cannot claim the same in this regard. While protection spec warriors have become slightly more PvP viable compared to pre-2.0, their lack of ability to taunt or consistently CC in PvP make them ineffective for "PvP tanking" and the DPS ability that is sacrificed to spec protection reduces solo and group viability to negligible amounts. On the flip side of the coin, post-patch, arms/fury warriors have no real buffs to support PvE necessities in tanking and DPS. In the end, warriors have lost all around. While Tseric may have stated that warriors were "overpowered" and in "need" of a nerf pre-2.0, the effect of the changes has rendered the class as requiring extreme specialization into DPS or tanking, and excelling at neither in comparison all other classes that were buffed with the patch.

If warriors can not have a pocket healer at all times (which let's face it, it is largely impossible for the majority WoW players with any class), talents/abilities need to offset their lack of a personal heal potion following them around. Second wind is a step in the right direction, but the low amount of HP healed, and the long time it takes to actually recieve any benefit from the HOT negates its usefulness. Blood craze is the same. Too little restoration of HP, too long to get the full effect. A decently geared caster can burn through an awesomely geared warrior's HP before the caster's CC even wears off (essentially you die before your keyboard is plugged back in, that is not balanced).

I could continue, but this post is long enough as it is. In essence, warriors are not asking to be an alpha class, they are not asking to be guaranteed a win in every fight, they are not asking for their design to be broken and rebuilt. They are simply asking for the current extreme imbalances against them to be addressed so that they can have fun with the $15/mo. that they pay to play this game. As much as group PvP balance is touted, you can not stick to that claim when 8 out of 9 classes are viable for solo play and also effective in a group setting.

I like to quote it, quote it.

I like to quote it, quote it.

I like to quote it, quote it.

I like to

(uhn)

QUOTE IT

Flawless
31-12-2006, 08:23 PM
I took the HP option, just have to catch azy and his fucking insane 6k HP ;_;

Orza
31-12-2006, 08:36 PM
http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/wishes.jpg

str1mml3r
31-12-2006, 09:14 PM
Wonder if a blizz employee tried to pvp with a warrior post 2.0..... :cry:

Kinshara
31-12-2006, 09:46 PM
Wonder if a blizz employee tried to pvp with a warrior post 2.0..... :cry:

Apparently Crezax has a warrior he pvps with. I think he's firmly in the balanced-around-group-pvp-with-support camp, however.

Flawless
31-12-2006, 09:51 PM
He raids with it also, based of his early posts

Orza
31-12-2006, 10:03 PM
its 2007 here now . We win.

Manidim
31-12-2006, 10:34 PM
Nah, the fact is you're just to retarded to realize *hhahaha mmyesss* that gametime is what really does it! That is GMT +1! that is MY time, I WIN I WIN, no im not drunk.

thurlog
31-12-2006, 11:53 PM
I am

str1mml3r
01-01-2007, 12:44 AM
im past drunk....i just ent├â┬Ârd twisting nether\o/

Orza
01-01-2007, 12:49 AM
ppl dont go OFF TIPOC.!

Stim
02-01-2007, 02:16 AM
Wonder if a blizz employee tried to pvp with a warrior post 2.0.....
This made me came up with a sadistic idea for blizzard employers... Undergeared warrior pvp as a punishment >_>

Ogrosh
02-01-2007, 11:38 AM
Wonder if a blizz employee tried to pvp with a warrior post 2.0.....
This made me came up with a sadistic idea for blizzard employers... Undergeared warrior pvp as a punishment >_>

I tried that a bit recently, it was pretty painful. I went back to my under geared Rogue, much more fun! :lol: