Log in

View Full Version : Hello Nerf


Cassina
14-11-2006, 11:23 AM
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=82099433&sid=1

Summary: Weapon skill now virtually useless (rogues hit hard by this too), Battle Shout tanking probably doesn't work at Nef anymore, rage normalisation. TBC talents at 60 are gimped until you can get to 70.

As one Orc put it:

Ahh, as an Orc Warrior im double nerfed in TBC. nice feeling, you pay for the expansion where anyone is getting boost, new fun stuff, and you're receiving nerfs in almost any area:
- racial (sure, not all but thats my personal view: hardiness nerfed, bloodfury nerfed, weapon skill, nerfed).
- new stats (resilience - nerfs your blood craze, flurry, rampage, amount of crits, rage generation, enrage),
- new talents countering each other (second wind, iron will, orc racial),
- laughable pvp set with tons of ... armor (yea, it'll help against ... rogue and who else ? against palading spells hunter magic shots, shamans ? ),
- rage formula (right now we should start every fight with 100 rage to have some chances. can you believe that you get same amount of rage while having flurry or not having it ? :) ),
- most crap 41 talents (even other classes say so),
- nerfed talents (deathwish , tactical mastery movement to prot)
- new introduced talents insta nerfed to plain useless (weapon mastery)
- crit / hit items revaluation (we had the most crit / hit items (yea, maybe rogues too - but they naturally get all dps gear so it's easier for them) so we're again nerfed the most)
- stamina didnt improved that much. as far as i know, hunters have pretty same stamina but they dont have such gimped damage and have most overpowered 1 vs 1 new skill
- gameplay (instead of having wide choice of active skills, you'll have "not enough rage" spam and doing white damage - that will be our new gameplay, at least in first months. Then, if you get 120 dps weapon, you'll have your gameplay, just like now with TUF (AV reward, ~ 60 dps) )
- another portion of stupid talents designed by pattern: you receive X, you lose Y (why it doesnt work for other classes ????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!): Victory Rush (usable only after kill), Rampage (usable only after crit), Commanding Shout (usable only without Battle Shout), Spell Reflection (usable only with shield so you're trading your chance to reflect something, for like 200-300 % less damage output, new Deathwish +5 % damage taken)
- stances still nerfing us (why druid forms give them only buffs while we receiving ie. +10 % damage taken which is imba big value now ?)
- stupid limitations: Commanding Shout not working with Battle Shout because it's "too strong" but ie. Demoralizing Shout, Intimidating Shout works well ? for those 2 years our %###ing shouts were stacking because it's not some pala auras.

Maladath, Runed Blade of the Nexus Crystal
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?source=live;witem=19351

Faylin
14-11-2006, 11:26 AM
Cry more. Really.

Check any class forum and every class (or at least the whiney bitches of that class) are crying they are the only class getting nerfed while the others are boosted.

Also.. there was a good reason all 3 "nerfs" you mentioned.

edit: 41 talent points crap? Don't make me laugh.

Fintan
14-11-2006, 11:39 AM
The only thing I really want is a Battleshout with a reasonable durations, 2.5 minutes is sodding annoying. :(

I'm interested to see how this Rage Normalisation works for me.

Faylin
14-11-2006, 11:42 AM
Battle Shout is indeed the most bloody annoying buff to keep up, ever.

Thorbadin
14-11-2006, 11:56 AM
Isnt each application of bshout 50 threat per buffed target making it quite nice for threat generation/per rage point?

Cassina
14-11-2006, 12:03 PM
Yes, which also makes it possible to do the BS method on Nef, or to use a warrior to tank the magic emp.

Chopper
14-11-2006, 12:06 PM
Isnt each application of bshout 50 threat per buffed target making it quite nice for threat generation/per rage point?
It is at the moment, but Blizzard are planning on changing that:

- World of Warcraft Test Patch 2.0.1

- Fixed an issue where Warrior "Battle Shout" was causing too much
threat.

Flawless
14-11-2006, 04:48 PM
I've ate every goddamn nerf I've got, and Ill sure as hell eat these.

Im not going to stop playing my warrior because people cry nerf.

Most people either need to A) Reroll B) Learn to play and stop the fucking crying.

Kathra
14-11-2006, 06:01 PM
Battle Shout is indeed the most bloody annoying buff to keep up, ever.

Heh, you're lucky you never used the original Druid Omen of clarity ;P

Faylin
14-11-2006, 06:05 PM
Actually I think I did, but it was 5 mins, right?

Abberare
14-11-2006, 07:09 PM
Most people either need to A) Reroll B) Learn to play and stop the fucking crying.

I like you :)

I've been wondering about Battle Shout for aggro, is it the same amount of threat for refreshing it as for applying it in the first place?

Kathra
14-11-2006, 07:16 PM
Actually I think I did, but it was 5 mins, right?

Two mins, and the buff could only be activated through caster-form melee

Thrane
14-11-2006, 08:31 PM
Battle Shout is indeed the most bloody annoying buff to keep up, ever.

And won't stack with Commanding Shout (from the same warrior) Go go useless new skill! :P

Cassina
15-11-2006, 12:38 AM
Most people either need to A) Reroll B) Learn to play and stop the fucking crying.

I like you :)

I've been wondering about Battle Shout for aggro, is it the same amount of threat for refreshing it as for applying it in the first place?

Yeah, otherwise Nef BS strat wouldn't work.
Oh and Flawless, I doubt if you'll be saying that in 2 weeks - have fun!

Flawless
15-11-2006, 10:47 AM
Most people either need to A) Reroll B) Learn to play and stop the fucking crying.

I like you :)

I've been wondering about Battle Shout for aggro, is it the same amount of threat for refreshing it as for applying it in the first place?

Yeah, otherwise Nef BS strat wouldn't work.
Oh and Flawless, I doubt if you'll be saying that in 2 weeks - have fun!I will be saying it in 2 weeks. Q_Q more.

Chonar
15-11-2006, 02:02 PM
Why the fuck wont those shouts stack? That's utter bullshit.

Artia
15-11-2006, 04:21 PM
Oh noes, you'll have to rethink your gameplay a bit, end of the world! Seriously, quit bitching about every little change to your class. No class is perfect, there are pieces of bullshit for everyone to work around.

Hevn
15-11-2006, 05:23 PM
Oh noes, you'll have to rethink your gameplay a bit, end of the world! Seriously, quit bitching about every little change to your class. No class is perfect, there are pieces of bullshit for everyone to work around.
Big fat QFT.

Fintan
15-11-2006, 05:35 PM
Yes and your class whines as well, so get the fuck out of our forums with your Holier Than Thou attitude. I for one won't be complaining, but it's not like warrior whines are a compulsory read.

Ajial
15-11-2006, 05:45 PM
Meh, tbh nothing i've seen yet for any class has really bothered me... I guess I just deal with stuff rather then bitching since what's that going to solve anyway?

Kinshara
15-11-2006, 05:50 PM
Yes and your class whines as well, so get the fuck out of our forums with your Holier Than Thou attitude. I for one won't be complaining, but it's not like warrior whines are a compulsory read.

Some members of every class whine, but those guys aren't the ones doing it.

Still not sure about the shouts not stacking thing though... seems a bit odd, though I suspect they want to make people trade off having more health vs. having more attack power. (In the same way pallies trade off BoM/BoW/etc). It'd be nice if they buffed the duration if that is indeed the case (well, would be nice anyway.)

Edit: Is there some clarification on the shouts? ie, does it mean not stacking for a solo player(which is fine), or does it mean not stacking in a group with multiple warriors? (which isn't so good)

Thrane
15-11-2006, 07:31 PM
Afaik it's not stacking for 1 player. Multiple players should have it stacking.

Not that having it not stack for one player makes any sense because that means a soloing warrior won't ever use it due to ap having such a big impact on rage generation in tbc.

Backup
15-11-2006, 07:38 PM
I feel sorry for warriors,yet,you dont have the worst 41 point talents...by far, take a deep look at some other classes 41's, shamans and paladins for example(elemental and holy trees).

and druids getting a cheap form of barov peasant caller isnt great....heard the treants get taken out in one arcane explosion.

Kathra
15-11-2006, 08:33 PM
I feel sorry for warriors,yet,you dont have the worst 41 point talents...by far, take a deep look at some other classes 41's, shamans and paladins for example(elemental and holy trees).

and druids getting a cheap form of barov peasant caller isnt great....heard the treants get taken out in one arcane explosion.

Yup, Druid feral 41pter should be a core skill tbh

And treeform? Are you kidding me, warrior talents arent so bad

Kinshara
15-11-2006, 08:35 PM
Afaik it's not stacking for 1 player. Multiple players should have it stacking.

Not that having it not stack for one player makes any sense because that means a soloing warrior won't ever use it due to ap having such a big impact on rage generation in tbc.

Makes perfect sense, since many other classes have mutually-exclusive buffs.

Warlock/Mage -- only one type of castable armor at a time, and they'll generally only use one for soloing.

Hunter -- only one aspect active at a time, and I spose we might switch between AotV and AotH in soloing. Never used AotB/AotW when soloing.

Paladin -- only one blessing/seal/aura active at once. Seals are very short lived so change frequently, but they're about equivalent to your combat moves. Blessings and Auras are very rarely changed when soloing ime.

Shaman -- only 1 elemental shield at a time, and I've not seen many switch it, even after water shield became available; might see more use now there's another rank. Only 1 totem from a given element, and most shammies don't vary the totems they use all that much. Heck, many don't even bother with totems at all when soloing, as it's a waste of mana much of the time.

Rogues -- only get their two poisons at a time; switching costs reagents, so isn't done often (and there's little use in doing so).


Main area I see your new shout being useful is in pvp and grouped pve anyway.

Thrane
15-11-2006, 08:47 PM
Main area I see your new shout being useful is in pvp and grouped pve anyway.

Not really.. see.. in pvp that AP will be more useful with the new hp amounts anyway. And in grouped pve... y'know what? I'm in a group with rogues... guess what they want.

Kinshara
15-11-2006, 08:57 PM
Main area I see your new shout being useful is in pvp and grouped pve anyway.

Not really.. see.. in pvp that AP will be more useful with the new hp amounts anyway. And in grouped pve... y'know what? I'm in a group with rogues... guess what they want.

PvE-wise: I was thinking tanking, especially for certain bosses -- you might want the AP bonus most of the time(for a little bit more aggro, or buffs in smaller instances for melee dpsers), but then switch to the health bonus right before a known burst, or a time when healers are unavailable. I believe you've encountered this kind of thing before :) If you're purely a dps warrior, I can see that you won't have much opportunity to use it in pve.

PvP-wise: Guarding a node, or being a flag carrier, or potentially soaking up damage after you've annoyed the hell out of someone while your teammates gank them. It's situational, but then so are some of the other buffs I mentioned. You've got the advantage that it can't be dispelled/purged/stolen, unlike many other buffs.

We'll have to see how it pans out in actual play, but I still think it makes sense right now.

Thrane
15-11-2006, 09:55 PM
, but then switch to the health bonus right before a known burst, or a time when healers are unavailable. I believe you've encountered this kind of thing before :) If you're purely a dps warrior, I can see that you won't have much opportunity to use it in pve.

You do realise that the shout doesn't add the hp like lifegiving gem/last stand does, right? It just ups your total hp by 762 (think it was that). Which means quick swapping won't be useful. And using it to increase your hp for some of those fun tough fights. Yeah... real fun if you then suddenly forget you have it on you and lose it right as a fun burst comes in.

Kinshara
15-11-2006, 10:06 PM
, but then switch to the health bonus right before a known burst, or a time when healers are unavailable. I believe you've encountered this kind of thing before :) If you're purely a dps warrior, I can see that you won't have much opportunity to use it in pve.

You do realise that the shout doesn't add the hp like lifegiving gem/last stand does, right? It just ups your total hp by 762 (think it was that). Which means quick swapping won't be useful. And using it to increase your hp for some of those fun tough fights. Yeah... real fun if you then suddenly forget you have it on you and lose it right as a fun burst comes in.

Yes, I realise it doesn't auto-heal you, and that it requires a little coordination with healers before the burst comes in. But that's where good teamwork and communication comes in, no? People generally have a raid alert as to when something bad is going to happen, and can get things ready beforehand.

As for forgetting it's there, well... I do think the duration should be increased.



I'm not saying this is some crazy uber ubility that warriors will be over the moon with; but it's still useful, if situational -- like an awful lot of other abilities. Same with some of the abilities added to other classes.

Thrane
15-11-2006, 10:18 PM
Yes, I realise it doesn't auto-heal you, and that it requires a little coordination with healers before the burst comes in. But that's where good teamwork and communication comes in, no? People generally have a raid alert as to when something bad is going to happen, and can get things ready beforehand.

As for forgetting it's there, well... I do think the duration should be increased.



I'm not saying this is some crazy uber ubility that warriors will be over the moon with; but it's still useful, if situational -- like an awful lot of other abilities. Same with some of the abilities added to other classes.

Well.. to begin with... there was a blue post about it being a bug. Then again... if that was actually true is another thing :P It's only a level 68 skill though so I'm not going to bother too much :)

Speaking about blue's responding to bugs.... I'm curious about the Heroic Strike Rank 11. If it really is a bug that it's no longer trainable.

Hevn
16-11-2006, 02:23 PM
Yes and your class whines as well, so get the fuck out of our forums with your Holier Than Thou attitude. I for one won't be complaining, but it's not like warrior whines are a compulsory read.
Well sorry mr. Warrior sir, but just because my tag says 'rogue', does that mean I have no experience with warriors? I'm sorry I feel inclined to read 'your' forum just because I have a warrior alt as well. Sure, I don't raid with her, she's not even level 60 yet. Does that mean I don't get affected by the nerf? No.

Also, please point either me or Artia to any given time where we've whined about or class. Nice generalisation there, mate. Yes, we (meaning rogues here) are getting nerfed as well. One of our best raid talents is being shot down. Yes, I will adapt, and that's the end of it.

Thrane
16-11-2006, 03:47 PM
Yeh even hevn's alt already feels the nerf :P Although.... hhmmmm... I'm not entirely sure :P

Hevn
16-11-2006, 03:56 PM
Yeh even hevn's alt already feels the nerf :P Although.... hhmmmm... I'm not entirely sure :P
No, not as hard as you. I never claimed that :P

I do however not feel like taking crap like that.

Karadros
16-11-2006, 05:17 PM
Afaik it's not stacking for 1 player. Multiple players should have it stacking.

Not that having it not stack for one player makes any sense because that means a soloing warrior won't ever use it due to ap having such a big impact on rage generation in tbc.

Makes perfect sense, since many other classes have mutually-exclusive buffs.

Warlock/Mage -- only one type of castable armor at a time, and they'll generally only use one for soloing.

Hunter -- only one aspect active at a time, and I spose we might switch between AotV and AotH in soloing. Never used AotB/AotW when soloing.

Paladin -- only one blessing/seal/aura active at once. Seals are very short lived so change frequently, but they're about equivalent to your combat moves. Blessings and Auras are very rarely changed when soloing ime.

Shaman -- only 1 elemental shield at a time, and I've not seen many switch it, even after water shield became available; might see more use now there's another rank. Only 1 totem from a given element, and most shammies don't vary the totems they use all that much. Heck, many don't even bother with totems at all when soloing, as it's a waste of mana much of the time.

Rogues -- only get their two poisons at a time; switching costs reagents, so isn't done often (and there's little use in doing so).


Main area I see your new shout being useful is in pvp and grouped pve anyway.

We had stances for that. ¬_¬

Kinshara
16-11-2006, 05:49 PM
We had stances for that. ¬_¬

Yeah... kinda. Same as druids have forms and priests can have shadowform if they spec for it... changing the set of abilities you can use with quite a large difference in power instead of being the same with a small increase in power in a certain area. It may be based around pvp power -- having extra health in addition to extra attack power may have been too much.

You do have several other buffs you can have up at the same time, though they're all short duration ones, and many debuffs on your opponent as well (I think you're roughly tied with warlocks and priests with respect to the number of debuffs you can land on someone, though obviously the effects are quite different)



Oh, and btw... I'm not being evil and trying to keep warriors down -- I do think you guys have quite a few problems that need to be fixed. It's just that having both buffs might be too powerful against many other classes, even if it doesn't help that much against, say, frost mages.

soulshift
16-11-2006, 06:12 PM
Most people either need to A) Reroll B) Learn to play and stop the fucking crying.

I like you :)

I've been wondering about Battle Shout for aggro, is it the same amount of threat for refreshing it as for applying it in the first place?

Yeah, otherwise Nef BS strat wouldn't work.
Oh and Flawless, I doubt if you'll be saying that in 2 weeks - have fun!

Flawless most likely will.
I've known him for ages and always respected him for being the crazy Irish guy that he is and I'm quite sure that he's neither a quiter or a whiner just because things are "getting nerfed".
Instead of crying on a forum about a nerf, why not obtain a beta key and start adepting already? :p
If you can't get a key why not simply wait and see it live first before judging what happens.
Unless you can see into the future and see what's happening, stop crying and wait.
When hunters and druid nerfs came first, I was one of the first to say "fine, i'll change my PvPing ways then!".
I think me and Tsarina were two of the few positive Nelf hunters when the "shadowmeld nerf" came.

Skilled players change with "nerfs". Bad ones cry nerf.

Edit: if you really want things to change, make feedback posts about skills on the forums seeing as those are mostly forwarded to the Dev team.

Slashy
16-11-2006, 06:17 PM
oh noes rogue pve is being nerfed! /care

soulshift
16-11-2006, 06:32 PM
oh noes rogue pve is being nerfed! /care

I still think you should make a char called Slashwrist.

Fintan
17-11-2006, 10:42 AM
I do however not feel like taking crap like that.

My gripe was with you moaning at warrior whiners when your OWN CLASS ( I feel it is worthwhile mentioning your class, and not you, as that seems to have gone flying over your head) whines just as much. Yet I don't see you wandering over to their forums with a big loud "STFU".

Hevn
17-11-2006, 10:58 AM
Yet I don't see you wandering over to their forums with a big loud "STFU".
I have. I even remember Khalam making a cranky remark on it because I was telling the whiners to L2P. :P

Fintan
17-11-2006, 11:00 AM
Stop being right.

I'm always right. :(

Cassina
17-11-2006, 11:34 AM
Rage calculator:
http://vanthia.com/ragenorm/

In raid DPS gear:
Two Hander or Main Hand:

Your old rage would be 7.69 per hit on average (15.38 on crit) - damage/(level/2)
Your old rage would be 7.5 per hit on average (15 on crit) - Kalagan's formula
Your new rage should be 7.37 per hit on average (14.75 on crit)

Offhand:

Your old rage would be 3.99 per hit on average (7.98 on crit) - damage/(level/2)
Your old rage would be 3.89 per hit on average (7.78 on crit) - Kalagan's formula
Your new rage should be 3.51 per hit on average (7.02 on crit)

In 2H PvP gear:
Two Hander or Main Hand:

Your old rage would be 9.81 per hit on average (19.62 on crit) - damage/(level/2)
Your old rage would be 9.57 per hit on average (19.14 on crit) - Kalagan's formula
Your new rage should be 9.28 per hit on average (18.57 on crit)

Zamruel
17-11-2006, 01:19 PM
cry moar ?

Fillion
17-11-2006, 01:35 PM
http://shadowdane.shackspace.com/cats_files/emo.jpg

(Note, this doesn't concern me either way, i'm just being obnoxious)

Kabhanda
17-11-2006, 03:37 PM
The vanthia calculator is flat out wrong on flurry btw. The averages you quote are for what gear level against what mitigation?

Or have you just copy/pasted data you don't understand (including that crap misspelling of Kalgan)?

Bunneh
17-11-2006, 05:09 PM
Aint got a clue what I'm looking at tbh, I just moosh things with me polearm, RAWR me smash!

Temmink
17-11-2006, 10:25 PM
Yes, which also makes it possible to do the BS method on Nef, or to use a warrior to tank the magic emp.

This matters how much in TBC btw?

Edit: also about weaponskill, it;s only a massive nerf if there'sa tonne of lvl 73 mobs in the end reaid instances. Does anyone actually know if that's the case or are people whining in advance?

Thrane
17-11-2006, 10:33 PM
This matters how much in TBC btw?

Edit: also about weaponskill, it;s only a massive nerf if there'sa tonne of lvl 73 mobs in the end reaid instances. Does anyone actually know if that's the case or are people whining in advance?

I honestly like the weaponskill change tbh. Raiding with lvl 43 Boe epics is just pathetic.

Cassina
18-11-2006, 09:11 AM
I agree there, it was stupid.
However, it's also stupid to have a frigging talent and racial which increases said skill for miniscule amounts.

Thrane
18-11-2006, 02:00 PM
It's the fact that there are racials gave such an advantage to some classes which was retarded. And one of the reasons they changed it.

Also... weaponskill is still worth a bit. It's worth the 2 talent points imo. Especially with the immune to disarm bit there. (not like I'll be taking it, I'm staying fury :P)

Ashborn
19-11-2006, 02:22 AM
Recap of the thread so far: QQ

Mojo
19-11-2006, 03:18 AM
QQ MOAR PLIX

Chopper
19-11-2006, 03:51 AM
Aw, that's sweet.

He's trying to be like Ashen.

Mojo
19-11-2006, 03:54 AM
who wouldnt

Manidim
23-11-2006, 08:12 AM
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/stream.php?id=31649

Just wanted to show you that you are not doomed, if you are fully raid buffed (she uses pots instead) You will do the same sweet dmg as always :p

Flawless
23-11-2006, 09:25 AM
1.4k MS with drake talon cleaver with 1.3k AP
a slight differance in rage generation but nothing that will change my play style alot, although the rage generation formula on the current PTR isn't the latest I think.
The spec was 43/5/3

Moriartus
06-12-2006, 04:05 PM
Meeeh I'm taking a break from WoW for now, I'm gonna come back for the expansion because I don't feel much like playing without my lovely rage gen and nice MS and whirlwind crits.

Tsarina
06-12-2006, 05:20 PM
It's the fact that there are racials gave such an advantage to some classes which was retarded.
Orc envy. You still have it, ugly dwarf.