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Trupiaczacha
17-10-2006, 09:32 AM
mage will be moste no need raiding classe as i see it now ;( we will lose - agro and good DPM... onlt 2 things we got...

so is it TBC dead of mages ?

and...

whot will be u build for lvling ? whot u think is the best for it :) and ofc whot u prefer :)

i think i will go for Fire full... :) 3 instan spels that will crit for 2k.... 2 new ranks of scorch that will be so nice atm in me mind ofc only :P

so whot u think ?

Muqai
20-10-2006, 02:17 AM
uhm. we are gaining so much in TBC. we are losing something aswell, but the gain is far greater. our dps is getting boosted, and we get our own aggro-dump in Invisibility.

also. seeing as I'll probably be looking at lvling mostly in BG's and instances, I'll prolly go with a hybrid arcane/fire build for burst and crits. unless frost proves to be REALLY great I'm staying away from that tree.

Jethrotull
20-10-2006, 02:25 AM
I think the mages can't complain looking at the new talents we are getting.

I think I like http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-mage/talents.html?2350050000230150330120000000000000000 000000000535020300205010000000


With the last 10 points going to arcane to fill 60-70 and having the frost to level up. For full time raiding a full arcane tree looks promising with the extra dmg bonus and high +hit/low threat on the Arcane Missiles.

It's a pity the threat reduction on frost and fire went down but to be honest that was kinda overpowered, now I can go all out most of the time without aggroing, seemed imbalanced.


My two cents, I'm more of a casual WoW-er these days so I can't be bothered to go all out on a raidbuild. I kinda like shatter.

Zorg
20-10-2006, 07:01 AM
well for sure it will be the end of humiliating warriors, spellreflect looks silly good, last 5sec, 10 sec cd 100% chance to reflect as it seems. look at the warrior mage duel.

http://files.filefront.com/TBCwmv/;6034228;;/fileinfo.html

Thorbadin
20-10-2006, 08:10 AM
We still need water, but hey mages could do that from outside the instance as well hmm

Trupiaczacha
20-10-2006, 09:23 AM
We still need water, but hey mages could do that from outside the instance as well hmm

thats only thing...

we loss sto mush... and gain to littel in pve ofc... hope they will change it ;(

if u thing agro is imbalanc for mages now.... whot u will say about rogues or hunters ? thay have best - agro in game... so... casters can have it to ? or we dont ?

arc... no thx for a nuking spell u will need pay 800 mana for 1 think how fast u will get oom ...

fire and forst new talents sucks balls if u compare to arc... thay always fuck up mages ;/

or make arc shit tree next day make it overpower... and so all time...

but we will see... maybe in TBC agro will be gone and problems whit it as in nax will gone.

Thorbadin
20-10-2006, 10:11 AM
We still need water, but hey mages could do that from outside the instance as well hmm

thats only thing...

we loss sto mush... and gain to littel in pve ofc... hope they will change it ;(

if u thing agro is imbalanc for mages now.... whot u will say about rogues or hunters ? thay have best - agro in game... so... casters can have it to ? or we dont ?

arc... no thx for a nuking spell u will need pay 800 mana for 1 think how fast u will get oom ...

fire and forst new talents sucks balls if u compare to arc... thay always fuck up mages ;/

or make arc shit tree next day make it overpower... and so all time...

but we will see... maybe in TBC agro will be gone and problems whit it as in nax will gone.

Mages will always be needed for dps/cc/remove curses/make water/makefood/make even more water.

Talent update seems quite nice tbh.
You got a faster movement talent if you get hit in melee so you can always run run run if you get aggro :p
Most of the time you'll have bos anyway in raids which is > than the talent mages got to reduce threat.

Kinshara
20-10-2006, 10:36 AM
Sigh... members of every class seem to alternate between ecstasy over some new ability and thinking the sky is falling on them from some nerf, or perceived loss of desirability in raid dungeons/pvp.

For mages, you'll still have great single target damage, good CC, nice buffs/utilities, and an aggro clear -- yes, it takes 8 seconds before it clears it, but I'm sure dps warriors (and shammies/pallies that are dpsing -- not the best damage, but they'll be up there for more than just straight dps) would love a way to get rid of aggro. Just because they're wearing mail/plate doesn't mean they don't go squish if a raid boss turns around and bashes them.

In addition, noone else can do the arcane fairy dance -- you're still the masters of AoE. Warlocks are getting better in this regard, but the control that frost nova provides along with AE and blastwave's damage still make you wanted anytime AoE is required.

Trupiaczacha
20-10-2006, 11:36 AM
AoE was never inporten in raids.... well u use it sometimes but not many... 8 sec in dmg u knwo how long it is ? and how many other can do dmg for you in this time ?

new talents are crap in fire and frost tree for pve ;/ bulshit imo. arc got RLY buffs.... but u will need spend 40 or more there... good that scorch have low tire talents to be good whit 40+ in arc... but we will see...

good singel dmg ? u kiding me ? lock rogues hunters make better if they do all good :)
mages win in long run...

cc ? whot for u use that ? for bosses ? ... i dont think so.. so its not importen imo.

i dont want be trash king. i want have use on bosses.

Kinshara
20-10-2006, 12:08 PM
Yes, I know how long 8 seconds is. But for the dpsers that don't have an aggro wipe, if they do pull aggro that often means they stop dps completely, since they're dead. Having some aggro reduction method is better than none. I also think this is designed to stop mages pulling sick rolling ignites and being so far ahead of everyone else that they push locks and hunters out of raids (something that happened for many guilds who were competing to be the first to down Kel'Thuzad.)

As for single target damage, rogues better bloody well outdamage mages most of the time, since they don't add much beyond that atm. Not quite sure where hunters will place right now, though they've changed aimed shot to try and move it out of the normal shot rotation (thankfully) and added steady shot + a scaling arcane shot in place of it. And locks will move up, yes... since the debuff limit has been upped.

CC/AoE on boss fights... yeah, not an issue for most fights right now, but crucial on others (Nef for AoE, Skeram for CC as examples I think). This may change in the expansion, however. Dunno.

Edit: I don't spose any of our beta testers are anywhere near being able to run a 25 man yet? How about 10 mans? Might be nice to get an idea of what things are actually useful there :)

Thrane
20-10-2006, 12:52 PM
Sigh... members of every class seem to alternate between ecstasy over some new ability and thinking the sky is falling on them from some nerf, or perceived loss of desirability in raid dungeons/pvp.

Lies! Warriors never did! (except prot ones) And maybe a bit over TM getting a trainable bit.. bloody time for that too ><

Bleetman
20-10-2006, 02:34 PM
Because, you know, it's not like Blizzard are trying to change the same old 'tank and spank' method to killing raid bosses.

Try Nef, or that hunter boss in AQ20, or hell even Onyxia and tell me you dont use AoE.

Bryn
20-10-2006, 02:53 PM
*quote*
well for sure it will be the end of humiliating warriors, spellreflect looks silly good, last 5sec, 10 sec cd 100% chance to reflect as it seems. look at the warrior mage duel.

I think if we use our nogging and see the spell reflect animation you can cast a rank 1 spell on them to take away the reflect(unless lower ranks have a higher resist) then you would have to use fire/ice ward. But they do have to be in defensive/battle stance and its 25 rage cost, so I think that balances it out.

What is going to be nasty in pvp is spellsteal from mages, it has no CD and the cost is high, but the mana pools of level 70 is high also. I wouldn't like my 2,000 rejuve/lifebloom stolen off me :(

Solkaner
20-10-2006, 02:58 PM
(unless lower ranks have a higher resist)

It's about the level of the caster, not the spell.

Cachero
20-10-2006, 03:43 PM
Mages get invisiblity ;(

I demand rogues get Fan of Knives :)

Thrasymakhos
20-10-2006, 05:06 PM
Mages get invisiblity ;(

And so the hunter (or the rogue, to be correct) becomes the hunted.

/stalk Cachero ^^

Gruze
20-10-2006, 05:18 PM
Mages get invisiblity ;(

And so the hunter (or the rogue, to be correct) becomes the hunted.

/stalk Cachero ^^

I lol'd

Ashborn
20-10-2006, 06:06 PM
/cast Detect Greater Invisibility

Thrasymakhos
21-10-2006, 12:34 AM
/cast Detect Greater Invisibility

Oh bugger.
Ruins a perfectly good Invisibility spell. ;)

Trupiaczacha
21-10-2006, 12:38 AM
/cast Detect Greater Invisibility

Oh bugger.
Ruins a perfectly good Invisibility spell. ;)

rofl :) well at last mages can laugh of it :)

Solkaner
21-10-2006, 12:42 AM
/cast Detect Greater Invisibility

Which I - for the record - always do when a BG starts.

Don't come around any silly thoughts now, you might just regret it... :p

Bleetman
21-10-2006, 02:28 AM
I thought mages using invisibility could only see other players if they were invisible themselves/could see invisible stuff.

Corruption
21-10-2006, 11:23 AM
I thought mages using invisibility could only see other players if they were invisible themselves/could see invisible stuff.

Thats what I thought also. Will it also work like stealth as in if you get too close to a player they will see you? Or is the only way of being seen with something like perception, flare etc (or if they click away their invisibility buff ofc).

Bleetman
21-10-2006, 02:48 PM
Invisibility doesn't work like stealth, if pots/cloaking devices work the same way as the mage spell will.

Firesoul
21-10-2006, 04:15 PM
Sorry but will this invisibility be broken by a spell being cast?

Just having nightmares of Arcane explosions from nowhere...

Actually, having fantasies about it. Go my mage!!!

Kinshara
21-10-2006, 04:31 PM
Sorry but will this invisibility be broken by a spell being cast?

Just having nightmares of Arcane explosions from nowhere...

Actually, having fantasies about it. Go my mage!!!

Yeah, casting something will break it. Much like attacking from stealth breaks stealth. (Unless you're one of those forsaken mobs in Ashenvale driving the droods nuts)

Warlee
15-11-2006, 09:30 PM
Hey, was a bit playing last times TBC. Actually I think mage will gain very good pvp skills. Arcane seems to be power now. And so far in my opinion it will be best for power leveling. Tried all builds (change in beta is one copper) and one I liked most is here (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/underdev/burningcrusade/mage/talents.html?2300550000230150330125050500001000000 000000000000000000000000000000) )

And once in 3 minutes you can feel some old times when you could pop up 2 trinkets


http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9807/magelovejl7.png (http://imageshack.us)
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/1077/magelove2bw7.png (http://imageshack.us)

With my poor gear it's good damage thought. =)

Hephaestos
15-11-2006, 10:02 PM
40/x/x seems to be the new pve powerhouse.

The aggro reduction shouldnt be much of a problem with a prot specced tank (devastation) smacking the mobs around and just being carefull ;-). Now that both factions get BoS it shouldnt be hard to adjust to this lack of initial aggro reduction in the trees untill one reaches 68 and get invis.

I havent really looked at the pvp stuff much but some skills do pop up as decent pvp tools 41p-fire/arcane etc.

Sure there are some nerfs (elemental precision, CS), but thats only a matter of adjusting to them.

Overall damage should be going up for by quite a bit with the 40/x/x spec (mostly thinking 40/0/21).


1 question to warlee:
Why go for pyro when fireball (atleast in beta) has a better damage range but doesnt cost a TP.

Have you tried this build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=of0EM0czxuZZVVG000xo ?

and from there move on to fill arcane potency, ap, spellpower and fll up mind mastery from 65-70.

could swap iceblock for slow if it seems more usefull ofc.

If not, give it a go and tell me how that went =)

- heph

Warlee
15-11-2006, 10:19 PM
Well, remember I am still level 60 in beta. And if we sum up all damage taken (including damage after second :dot) from both spells, pyroblast does bigger damage - correct me if I am wrong.
Anyway was trying the build with 41 points in fire but still in my opinion you have better use from arcane (bigger mana, faster regen, and very similar damage).I will probably check out fire again after I will level up and get new spell ranks.
And no - this build I have not tried( http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=of0EM0czxuZZVVG000xo ) so far. May do it one day but it's not what I am interested in m8. Your build seems to be more for instances, maybe pvp. And my goal at the moment is to find out best build for power leveling. Anyway, when you will got lvl 70 your build looks nice.

Lus
16-11-2006, 01:19 PM
I also think this is designed to stop mages pulling sick rolling ignites and being so far ahead of everyone else that they push locks and hunters out of raids (something that happened for many guilds who were competing to be the first to down Kel'Thuzad.)

Erm what? U did hear rolling ignites did get the nerfed hard on TBC beta right?

Hi Trup :)

Velkraith
16-11-2006, 06:26 PM
mages if u still want to screw warriors over, take up engineering...

u know what spells ur gonna cast so make a frost or fire reflect trinket.

when you battle a warrior use the trinket and cast away, if the warrior uses spell reflect, ull just reflect it back at them again...

u dont loose a cast, and they just loose rage...

ofc this can only be done once, but hey do it at the start of a fight when the warrior only has a bit of rage and he wont be able to use spell reflect again for the next spell... thats a nice 2 big powerful hits.


EDIT---------------

just watched that video... tbh spell reflect is nice, but that mage killed one warr that was ~4 lvls higher than he was (lots of resists) and only just lost against the other who was again about 4 lvls higher.

mages will still prolly beat warriors in duels alot of the time... spell reflect will just stop the 5second duels between the 2 classes

Thrane
16-11-2006, 07:24 PM
That vid also included the no cooldown version of spell reflect.

Trupiaczacha
16-11-2006, 07:45 PM
I also think this is designed to stop mages pulling sick rolling ignites and being so far ahead of everyone else that they push locks and hunters out of raids (something that happened for many guilds who were competing to be the first to down Kel'Thuzad.)

Erm what? U did hear rolling ignites did get the nerfed hard on TBC beta right?

Hi Trup :)

hi old mage :) how u doing on WH :)

and yes roling is nerfed in TBC :)

as many things tbh... blizz simply fails... as always... or arc tree is crap or overpower... whot a company of lamers work there :F

AnteroVipune
16-11-2006, 07:49 PM
WAA WAAA WAAwawa wwAWAWAW

Kinshara
16-11-2006, 08:15 PM
I also think this is designed to stop mages pulling sick rolling ignites and being so far ahead of everyone else that they push locks and hunters out of raids (something that happened for many guilds who were competing to be the first to down Kel'Thuzad.)

Erm what? U did hear rolling ignites did get the nerfed hard on TBC beta right?

Hi Trup :)

Hmm, no, hadn't heard that sorry :)

Most of the mage info I've seen coming from the beta testers has been to do with pvp I'm afraid, so I haven't heard of all the changes. There's been a few 5 man vids from a mage's perspective, but that doesn't really show what sustained raid dps will be like of course -- just that mage aoe is as useful as ever.

Hephaestos
16-11-2006, 10:00 PM
gief pve infos! silly pvp mages :P

Warlee
17-11-2006, 07:51 AM
WAA WAAA WAAwawa wwAWAWAW
Hello, and I am Tom.

Ysabella
17-11-2006, 01:35 PM
gcd on counterspell and AOE doing less damage if hitting more that three targets seem created with one intention: To make mages less fun to play :(

*sad panda*

Kinshara
17-11-2006, 01:55 PM
gcd on counterspell and AOE doing less damage if hitting more that three targets seem created with one intention: To make mages less fun to play :(

*sad panda*

Well, the aoe doing less damage vs. lots of targets seems aimed at stopping mages pulling the mass farming BS that happens at present, imo. (google for "Even stupider mage tricks", where the guy takes out something like 90 mobs of a similar level at once)

gcd on counterspell means you get to think a little more about fighting other casters, especially paladins(single spell school locked down far too easily atm.) Downside is that it's even harder fighting locks.

Ysabella
17-11-2006, 05:28 PM
Well, the aoe doing less damage vs. lots of targets seems aimed at stopping mages pulling the mass farming BS that happens at present, imo. (google for "Even stupider mage tricks", where the guy takes out something like 90 mobs of a similar level at once)

It's true one mage (Faxmonkey) managed to aoe 95 mobs during the scourge invasion, a seasonal event. No other mage has ever managed to pull this trick. If you want "video-proof", you'll also find a video of a lvl 30 hunter killing a lvl 60 rogue. You'll even find videos of certain classes wtfpwning in the BG's. You will even find videos of warlocks soloing molten giants in MC. But let's stick to mages.

The AOE bonanza in the seasonal event could be avoided by adding a single mob with a ranged attack - or by a single of the mobs resisting one of the frost-novas. And in case you didn't know: Mage AOE-grinding is done using Blizzard and Firenova (not mainly IAE, CoC and Blastwave that are the spells affected by this change in game dynamics).

Let's agree it will be interesting to see how the raids now will deal with aoe-encounters like the lab-packs in BWL?


gcd on counterspell means you get to think a little more about fighting other casters, especially paladins(single spell school locked down far too easily atm.) Downside is that it's even harder fighting locks.

If a mage manages to CS the 1,5 second pally heal, the pally's in trouble for 10 seconds. Thirty seconds later, it will be in trouble again if the mage again manages to cs the heal. I agree. If the pally waited too long before healing, CS might actually lead to the pally getting killed by a mage (!)

However, I don't think the fact that the class with the highest survivability in the game have only one school of magic - a class that does damage even without using magic - justifies making the mages only defence against casters useless. Regardless of wether the non-damaging spell with 30 second cooldown actually hits, using CS renders the mage unable to do anything for 1,5 second. If you'd played a mage, you'd known doing nothing for 1,5 seconds is suicide. When not using an offensive spell is better than using it, I think there's something wrong.

It is of course possible to spec 17 points in the Arcane tree to get the CS improved to a 4 second silence. The global cooldown gives the mage 2,5 seconds before the silence wear off. That's not even enough time to can one frostbolt or one fireball. You should try comparing the cooldown and damage done by CS with the hunter silencing shot, rogue silence, felhunter spell-lock, shadowpriest-silence or shaman earthshock...

And I do find the mages less fun to play because of these changes. Sorry.

Akrea
17-11-2006, 05:36 PM
WAA WAAA WAAwawa wwAWAWAW

Wa Wa Wi Wa?

Trupiaczacha
17-11-2006, 06:29 PM
now whot i have told you :) magges are not fun and get nerfed in stupid things.... who will want play a mage now...

blizzard simpel fails.

Asura
17-11-2006, 06:42 PM
(...)

I must say I agree with pretty much everything you said there. I'd just like to add 2 things here.

I can -to some extent- get why it's "unfair" that counterspell didn't trigger the global cd, however the length of the ability simply doesn't make it that useful anymore after counting the global cd.

Also the AE nerf is plain silly. OH NOEZ someone killed 90 mobs in a silly seasonal event wooptidoo. I challenge everyone who brings that up as an example to simply kill 30 or 40 mobs at once. Just try it. Without a build made for it and a special design (lots of mobs in a small place lacking any kind of ranged unit) I doubt you'll be up for the task. So what really? It's overpowered? It's not as easy as it looks in the end. Those vids are giving one hell of a wrong impression of things indeed. Gothik looks piss easy on a vid as well, but in reality... :P

Kinshara
17-11-2006, 07:55 PM
(...)

I must say I agree with pretty much everything you said there. I'd just like to add 2 things here.

I can -to some extent- get why it's "unfair" that counterspell didn't trigger the global cd, however the length of the ability simply doesn't make it that useful anymore after counting the global cd.

Also the AE nerf is plain silly. OH NOEZ someone killed 90 mobs in a silly seasonal event wooptidoo. I challenge everyone who brings that up as an example to simply kill 30 or 40 mobs at once. Just try it. Without a build made for it and a special design (lots of mobs in a small place lacking any kind of ranged unit) I doubt you'll be up for the task. So what really? It's overpowered? It's not as easy as it looks in the end. Those vids are giving one hell of a wrong impression of things indeed. Gothik looks piss easy on a vid as well, but in reality... :P

'K. Regarding counterspell -- it isn't your sole defense against casters. Sheep works(with its downside of healing, or breaking on dots), and the ward spells mitigate some damage; if you spec frost you can pick up ice barrier(mitigation) and iceblock(remove current effects, immunity to damage, and time to let cooldowns run out). if you spec fire in TBC, you get dragon's breath -- interrupt, and incapacitate long enough to cast a nuke. A correctly timed blink will also avoid damage. Are these as powerful as the current CS against casters? No, but they still provide some defense.
If it's only the 4 sec silence that goes in from imp. counterspell, you still have instants you can use in that time. If it's the full counterspell effect, well... plenty you can do in 8.5 seconds after the gcd. Basically, it'll be a bit more of a trade off to use; the effect will still be very useful at the right time, and not quite so useful otherwise.

Before you yell at me for pointing out talent tree-specific things to help against other casters, please note that hunters don't have any interrupts by default; all of them require at least 21 talent points.

For the AoE nerf... yeah, 90+ is exceptional -- twas just a note that no other class could try that many; I still see mage farmers driving other players out of areas by killing mobs faster than anyone else though. Having the nerf point be "more than 3" feels too low, I must admit; I'd expect it to be closer to 10 before reducing damage.


From the feedback and quick videos from beta testers so far, mages still seem to be fine, same with the other classes; there's only one thing that really stands out to me as something that *has* to change before TBC goes live -- the hunter 41pt BM talent. It's far too powerful right now, needs a rather large nerf imho.

Trupiaczacha
17-11-2006, 08:31 PM
i must say u have no bloody idea how mages are.

and tbh hunters too... lame that u dont know u owne classe

Asura
17-11-2006, 08:46 PM
'K. Regarding counterspell -- it isn't your sole defense against casters. Sheep works(with its downside of healing, or breaking on dots).

Yes, because sheeping utterly rocks in the middle of a duel. Also unlike locks/priests (with their fear) ours break on dmg and can't be reapplied just like that, because of the healing effect. So ye, you get an opener, considering they're not gonna sit and wait for you to poly 'em.



and the ward spells mitigate some damage; if you spec frost you can pick up ice barrier(mitigation) and iceblock(remove current effects, immunity to damage, and time to let cooldowns run out).

Considering we're the class with the worst survivability, I figure you can grant us that. Wards do not help on the enemies we need it for. It's usable pretty much only against mages. And a mage vs mage duel usually comes down to luck anyway (well that and surprisingly weird tactics), if both have some idea of how to play their class.
Iceblock is a 5 min cooldown. Hardly something you use each and every fight in bgs and/or world pvp. Hell even for duels, unless you let everyone wait 5 mins before you start


if you spec fire in TBC, you get dragon's breath -- interrupt, and incapacitate long enough to cast a nuke. A correctly timed blink will also avoid damage. Are these as powerful as the current CS against casters? No, but they still provide some defense).

You're right, dragon's breath is nice. It does take 41 talent points and thus removes any way to get other viable stuff like iceblock which, like it or not, adds a lot to your strategy during a mage vs caster fight. Edit: And to PvE.
Basicly the introduction of the new talents made it so that mages can't really make a build that does well in both pve and pvp afaik. It's up for debate whether locks and or priests feel about it the same way as us. I personally think we'd be screwed with a pve build and a lock would still do fine, but I'd be biased. Fact is destro locks get silly boosts in PvP just to help 'em in PvE.


If it's only the 4 sec silence that goes in from imp. counterspell, you still have instants you can use in that time. If it's the full counterspell effect, well... plenty you can do in 8.5 seconds after the gcd. Basically, it'll be a bit more of a trade off to use; the effect will still be very useful at the right time, and not quite so useful otherwise.

If you use your instants when the enemy can't do shit back at you, you're an idiot. I'm sorry, it's true. Following your logic you'd use all your instants (cooldowns) when he's unable to counter 'em and stand around casting when he can interrupt and whatnot. Good luck.
And yes, you're right, if you time/use it right, you should still have 8,5 seconds. Which -should- be enough. But considering the fact that the general amount of health will go up all around, the fact that cd on cs is still 45secs (which means you probably won't use it twice) and the fact they somehow reduced it's time, the spell is worth a lot less now. And makes using it more of a risk unless you're sure to actually knock a tree out for 10 secs.


Before you yell at me for pointing out talent tree-specific things to help against other casters, please note that hunters don't have any interrupts by default; all of them require at least 21 talent points.

I suppose you never really figured out that even the most basic of your abilities, yes auto-attack can actually interrupt our casts. Edit: Because however you turn it around, casting time is a bitch and pretty much every core damage spell has a casting time. It just "rarely" (in your pov) does because we get talents to reduce that chance. Any and every hunter really has scatter shot. And even feign death interrupts casts.


From the feedback and quick videos from beta testers so far, mages still seem to be fine, same with the other classes; there's only one thing that really stands out to me as something that *has* to change before TBC goes live -- the hunter 41pt BM talent. It's far too powerful right now, needs a rather large nerf imho.

Well stuff like that isn't final yet, I hope. Fact is, according to me and other mages, a lot of the changes done by blizz are plain retarded. I'm wondering how that new AoE thing will work out since our -new- raid role was "support and primary AoE". Frankly I don't realise what our role will be there. In PvP, we got buffs where we didn't need 'em and we didn't get 'em where we obviously needed 'em (if not being nerfed in those cases). Other classes got even more ways to counter us.
Time will tell I guess. I suppose we'll find a way to get above it all again. Somehow, we always have.

Kinshara
17-11-2006, 09:48 PM
Yes, because sheeping utterly rocks in the middle of a duel. Also unlike locks/priests (with their fear) ours break on dmg and can't be reapplied just like that, because of the healing effect. So ye, you get an opener, considering they're not gonna sit and wait for you to poly 'em.

Never said it rocked. Just said it helped, and I did mention the downsides to it. Duels I can see it being fairly useless beyond an opener. (I'm mainly coming from a bg pvp perspective here)


I suppose you never really figured out that even the most basic of your abilities, yes auto-attack can actually interrupt our casts. Edit: Because however you turn it around, casting time is a bitch and pretty much every core damage spell has a casting time. It just "rarely" (in your pov) does because we get talents to reduce that chance. Any and every hunter really has scatter shot. And even feign death interrupts casts.

'Course I know that; I've got clothie caster alts I pvp with as well -- mostly my lock. But just as every hunter has scatter shot, as you say, nearly every mage at 60 I've ever encountered in pvp has talents to reduce interruption; autoshot doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference; if my pet manages to make it to them, then it's another matter. (If they're pve raid specced I guess they might not have it, whereas hunters would still have scatter.)

You have a point with FD -- but there, we make a tradeoff; do we FD to interrupt now, or do we try and use it later for a trap? (That gets removed in TBC with in-combat traps, and it does become a normal interrupt)

Fact is, according to me and other mages, a lot of the changes done by blizz are plain retarded. I'm wondering how that new AoE thing will work out since our -new- raid role was "support and primary AoE". Frankly I don't realise what our role will be there.

Fair enough, there doesn't seem to be a single area you're indispensibly dominant in for pve anymore. Which is disappointing, given your status as a "core" class.


Other classes got even more ways to counter us.

Agreed. Including priests being able to take down your best survival tool.



Sorry if I've upset anyone; there just seemed to be a general "we're useless now" feeling to some of the posts in the thread(and the title), which isn't true. But if they've made the class less fun for players, then it does need to be corrected in some way.

(For all the "you don't know anything" type comments, I respectfully disagree -- I've seen all those abilities I mentioned used successfully in pvp. But as I said, most of my experience comes from battlegrounds, where your opponent doesn't know if you've cast a buff beforehand, rather than a duel, where they know a lot more; and there's also allies to assist, rather than it being straight 1v1)

Taurusos
18-11-2006, 01:08 AM
All im happy about is the 12 sec and nomore CCs.

And tbh, all the changes to mages are very good for future of BGs.

I mean it.

Also, since ive been struck by it so many times, when complaining over warrior nerfs:

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
The "wah" stopped after 12 sec. Same duration as the sheeping.

Mages abilities as far as I have seen in BGs as warrior are pretty damn annoying. I for one, am very happy the class will be less annoying.

Approved.

/Tau

Thrane
18-11-2006, 01:12 AM
I'm wondering though... will the 12 seconds be enough to put us out of combat? :P

Asura
18-11-2006, 01:18 AM
autoshot doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference; if my pet manages to make it to them, then it's another matter

You'd be surprised how annoying it can be at times when you run into a "luck" streak :p


You have a point with FD -- but there, we make a tradeoff; do we FD to interrupt now, or do we try and use it later for a trap? (That gets removed in TBC with in-combat traps, and it does become a normal interrupt)

Yes, you're right when it comes down to -now-. Frankly I find the interrupt quite more annoying than the trap I'd block out of (and usually adds the element of surprise in my advantage). I mainly had TBC in mind though when I said that.


Fair enough, there doesn't seem to be a single area you're indispensibly dominant in for pve anymore. Which is disappointing, given your status as a "core" class.

Sadly. Which is also the main reason of the many mage "whining". We don't actually have any area where we "rock" anymore. In PvP, I think you can imagine other classes being a lot better. And in PvE, the buffs we got really don't compare to other classes, which undermines our position even more. It forces people to get clear PvE talents to not underachieve which in terms gimps 'em even more in PvP. Since again, we end at the fact that mages totally lack an "allround" kind of build.

Sorry if I've upset anyone; there just seemed to be a general "we're useless now" feeling to some of the posts in the thread(and the title), which isn't true. But if they've made the class less fun for players, then it does need to be corrected in some way.

I doubt you did. I keep saying it a lot as well, to the frustration of a lot of people. Thing just is, back in the days I was praying for a mage patch. When it arrived, it added good things, but didn't adress any real class problem.
I had high hopes for TBC as well. However every single call affecting mages seems pretty much... I dunno, clueless? I sometimes wonder if we actually have a class representative at Blizzard and wth he's doing frankly.

People usually compare themselves to other classes and they tend to notice stuff that scares 'em, for both PvP and PvE. The fact that our role is threatened more and more doesn't inspire confidence in any way. Threatened by buffs to other classes and or "fixes" at our end.
I suppose rolling ignites had the "fix" coming as well, but it imo just shows how mages tend to be creative to overcome threats toward its class role and end up getting a nerf/fix after that. For PvP, the first thing that comes to mind is the trinket mages.
Blizzard really lets things happen for far too long and then suddenly takes 'em away, making it look and/or feel like an actual nerf. And for every thing they take away, they don't really add anything to balance it out.
Also as with every class, "we get nerfed and the others don't" is a common point of view ;)

Trupiaczacha
18-11-2006, 02:00 AM
thx god i dont have to write this txt whot as000000ra did :wink:

it will be hard to read for all of you :)

Taurusos
18-11-2006, 02:43 AM
I'm wondering though... will the 12 seconds be enough to put us out of combat? :P

lmao

:lol:

/Tau

Ysabella
18-11-2006, 02:43 AM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=47160568&pageNo=6&sid=1#106

Asura
18-11-2006, 03:08 AM
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=47160568&pageNo=6&sid=1#106

Cool link, worth the read. I have my thoughts about the particular point where he said mages came out on top of the damagelist. That every test and even against single targets. I somehow really, really have a hard time believing that... Time will tell yet again, I guess :p

Edit: When the hell did they change elemental precision... Wtf, I really should stop reading those forums. They make baby jesus cry! ;(

Copis
18-11-2006, 09:54 AM
I love mages (and will be leveling one in TBC as a new alt) but if they can top AoE *and* single target meters then there's something wrong, either in the design of the bosses or the various DPS classes with regards to one other.

For a dev to come out and admit mages are intended to do this doesn't fill us rogues with any hope at all. Our only consolation when dealing with cleaves, travel time, lack of utility and AoE was the fact we could offer the best single target damage around. After hearing about this, the weapon skill nerf and our new talents I'm really worried.

Malison
18-11-2006, 12:33 PM
In short: Stop the QQing and learn to adapt.

maegz will be fein.

Illuminati
18-11-2006, 01:25 PM
maegz will be fein.

Asura
18-11-2006, 02:12 PM
Back to the wow-eu forums you go! Both of you :p

Firesoul
18-11-2006, 04:16 PM
Back to the wow-eu forums you go! Both of you :p

*yawn* You think too much. Just KILL!!!!

Trupiaczacha
18-11-2006, 09:39 PM
Back to the wow-eu forums you go! Both of you :p

Lac will show use :) how fine we will be :)

mages geting 80% nerf or more in TBC from new things. thats facts...

AnteroVipune
18-11-2006, 10:55 PM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
All you do is fucking whine...

Fingolfin
18-11-2006, 11:15 PM
Back to the wow-eu forums you go! Both of you :p

Lac will show use :) how fine we will be :)

mages geting 80% nerf or more in TBC from new things. thats facts...

I'll post the link again just in case you missed it.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=47160568&pageNo=6&sid=1#106

And heres the bit thats pretty interesting

8. Ok, there isn't a #8, so I'll just insert my own note. I know that many of you are feeling like mages will be a "nerfed" class in the expansion. However, I think it's worth pointing out that in all of the testing we've done so far, the mage has been the clear-cut top damage class in the expansion at level 70, even against single targets (hopefully not too much so). In test after test, our jaws are consistently dropping at the sheer damage output we've seen from the mage at level 70, so I do think that some of the panic here is unwarranted. These results are directly what have led to some of the changes such as the one to elemental precision. Damage = zomg.

Maybe i've misunderstood what you've said above but surely this tells you that mages aren't a nerfed class like you'd truly like to believe.

Btw, saying "mages geting 80% nerf or more in TBC from new things. thats facts.." doesn't actually make it a fact. As 68% of all people know, throwing statistics around does not make something a fact..

Hephaestos
18-11-2006, 11:30 PM
Besides.. 84% of all statistics are false...

Faylin
18-11-2006, 11:41 PM
Back to the wow-eu forums you go! Both of you :p

Lac will show use :) how fine we will be :)

mages geting 80% nerf or more in TBC from new things. thats facts...

Haha

Haha

Haha

Haha

Haha

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/HPM/BM70~Whatever-You-Moron-Posters.jpg

Flawless
19-11-2006, 01:02 AM
How the fuck can you put a statistic on a nerf?

Trupiaczacha
19-11-2006, 01:39 AM
Back to the wow-eu forums you go! Both of you :p

Lac will show use :) how fine we will be :)

mages geting 80% nerf or more in TBC from new things. thats facts...

Haha

Haha

Haha

Haha

Haha

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/HPM/BM70~Whatever-You-Moron-Posters.jpg

and who is a moron here...

i dont care if mages are top dmg in raids... we didnt need pve buff... we need pvp bufff

but whot buff we get for pvp 0 imo...

do mages need buff agian melee classes NO we dont but blizz buff use there.
do mages need buff agian caster classes YES and blizz nerf use there.

so first u alaince idiot lern to play a mage... if u have one.

and for many resens asura pouint here we geting nerf for exampel problem whit builds etc.

if u have something to say u are welcome to org best of 3 of 5 of 10 i dont care come and show u skills...

just bec ppl like you and other ppl think mages are good or overpower bec you and others know shit about mages playing aliance special.

and btw who in the hell are you ? where did u play u mage (if u have one)

Muqai
19-11-2006, 04:49 AM
you did'nt even bothered to look at his signature did you, trupi?

and FYI: yes mages are getting some "nerfs", but as I stated earlier in this topic, we are also getting some nice buffs. yes there's something I don't quite grasp. but seeing as the lot of us haven't even tried any of this in the beta, we can't really begin to "demand better service". who knows, maybe the mage will be the strongest class (depending on build and gear, as always) in pvp 1-2 months after TBC's released. I have a vague memory that warlocks were pretty shitty early on in the WoW Live, but now look at them! :)

also:
magez will be fien

Faylin
19-11-2006, 09:51 AM
Trupi, I'm still waiting for the numbercrushing behind the 80% nerf. But from your own words I seem to be able to decipher:
- mages are and will be fine in PvE
- mages are and will be fine in PvP against melee classes

Which basically means: mages have trouble in PvP in defeating -all- classes. Yeh, we got a problem, we can't own all.
In other words:

magez will be fien

But if you don't agree I just recommend you reroll and stop the fucking whining.

Vege
19-11-2006, 11:51 AM
/signed

Firesoul
20-11-2006, 12:38 AM
just bec ppl like you and other ppl think mages are good or overpower bec you and others know shit about mages playing aliance special.


Granted I haven't been playing my mage for relatively long, but it's by far my favourite dps class. Haven't had this much fun playing the game since I started.

I don't think they're overpowered. I think they are good though. Of course they have their downsides but so do all classes.

You're just having a moan Trupi. Chill out and stop having a go. :p

Trupiaczacha
20-11-2006, 02:04 AM
if some ppl dont see facts its not me problem.

for me playing a mage in BG or Raids when i have in team prolly always best ppl on horde i (and others) start to see this all "-" mages have... and moste admine mages have the moste of it :(

if ppl dont see whot blizzard make in TBC whit use (yes i have played and stil play betta) then open you eyes!

i mean fast all classes get "fixed buffed" in whot they need.

take warlocks... they need pve buff they get it.

hunters need pve buff as i know or some ppl tell they get it too

(dont know me good on other classes bec i play mage from fast day 1 in wow whit littel brake for me "noob" rouge in alaince)

so besicly mages need and was hoping for some PvP buff and some normalizing "builds"
but we didnt get it.... new spells in 80% are jokes :( and sucks as end tree spells :(

agian blizz show use they they have no idea how to develop mages in game

first they buff use liek hell in pve making use liek "gods" there... and made arc tree crap (mage patch) now in TBC then want nerf use there... we got some fire/frost nerf in pve... but they add new things to arc tree making it overpower like hell... and now even more (if u go arc tree) u will be better "DD" even.

this show they have no idea how to fix mage classes in PvE and PvP way.

you even dont knwo how it sucks to be not ebel do a good battel or duel in BG when...

mages just simply are week solo as hell :( we good for Team work and zerg ;/

and thats not fun anyway :( trying to show solo skills is more fun.

and like always we will adapt and find way to get best of mages after all chenges they made whit use.

Jethrotull
20-11-2006, 04:25 AM
I might be completely missing your point but I never took a course in gibberish so you'll have to excuse me.

I fail to see how:
+50% critical hit dmg (works out as 25% more dmg when critting),
spelldmg increased by 25% of you intellect,
spells casted while clearcastin having 30% more critchance

can be interpreted as a 'nerf' and besides all we got was some extra tiers, you don't have to take the new spells if you don't like it and use the 10 extra points to make the build you've always wanted pre tbc.

We'll get a 1.50sec icelance that does frostbolt rank11 type dmg on frozen targets, extra benefits from +dmg and overall a lot of new ways to play. Arcane is a nice support tree for raiding but not at all needed for PvP. It's not that we're forgotten, it's just that we have to make a decision since all the good stuff seems to be further up in the tree.

mages just simply are week solo as hell
We're ranged
We have a stunproc and the 'daze' abillity if specced tht way
We have slowing effects
We can freeze
We can exclude 1 enemy from the fight with polymorph
We can silence/interupt spells
We do enough dmg to take down mobs long before they could hurt us enough

The Power Craver
Wants only one thing -- more power with less effort. Any downgrade in power is infuriating. Any upgrade is insufficient.

Sample Quote: "I can't believe they nerfed the pillar of lava spell! How am I supposed to kill twelve ogres at once now?"


This is you.

Vege
20-11-2006, 08:07 AM
Trupia, there is simple solution for You: quit game, delete is, destroy Your CDs/manual/box.









or l2adapt and stop whining.

Elexin
20-11-2006, 09:28 AM
I fail to see how:
+50% critical hit dmg (works out as 25% more dmg when critting),
spelldmg increased by 25% of you intellect,
spells casted while clearcastin having 30% more critchance

can be interpreted as a 'nerf'

[etc]

I may be missing the point here, but I think one of the reasons he (they?) are complaining is because with the things you listed, its taking away some of the free will. Sort of heading towards enforced specs.
Previously blizz tried to make the elemental trees better, but screwed up the arc tree in the process. Now instead of trying to even that out they seem to be screwing up the elemental trees somewhat while putting the 'must have' talents into arc.

For any mage to get the buffs you list, they have to go arc. Heavy arc; at least 40 points in it. That sort of negates the fact they have other trees, as the buffs the other trees offer don't quite compare in terms of sheer damage. It takes away some of the self-choice in the matter.


Edit: And it was pointed out to me last night... the AOE thing is potentially bad for groups aswell as just the mages themselves. Lots of mobs up ahead, you want the mage to aoe them... hey, you're used to mages being able to deal with that so you can move on... not gonna be quite so easy anymore... ;)

Akrea
20-11-2006, 09:58 AM
I may be missing the point here, but I think one of the reasons he (they?) are complaining is because with the things you listed, its taking away some of the free will. Sort of heading towards enforced specs.


If mages are whining over Forced specs...

*Remembers when I was holy-specced, the only useable spec for raiding*

-_-

Trupiaczacha
20-11-2006, 10:16 AM
I fail to see how:
+50% critical hit dmg (works out as 25% more dmg when critting),
spelldmg increased by 25% of you intellect,
spells casted while clearcastin having 30% more critchance

can be interpreted as a 'nerf'

[etc]

I may be missing the point here, but I think one of the reasons he (they?) are complaining is because with the things you listed, its taking away some of the free will. Sort of heading towards enforced specs.
Previously blizz tried to make the elemental trees better, but screwed up the arc tree in the process. Now instead of trying to even that out they seem to be screwing up the elemental trees somewhat while putting the 'must have' talents into arc.

For any mage to get the buffs you list, they have to go arc. Heavy arc; at least 40 points in it. That sort of negates the fact they have other trees, as the buffs the other trees offer don't quite compare in terms of sheer damage. It takes away some of the self-choice in the matter.


Edit: And it was pointed out to me last night... the AOE thing is potentially bad for groups aswell as just the mages themselves. Lots of mobs up ahead, you want the mage to aoe them... hey, you're used to mages being able to deal with that so you can move on... not gonna be quite so easy anymore... ;)

well smart ppl see whot is going on whit mages.... but others n/c....

and as i see Jethrotull u are next stupid aliance mage that can copy all from better mages and run and yell whot other say ... do u have your owne brain ? can u use it ? think twise or even 10 times before saying something that is just stupid.

where i wrote mages must be or i will they be overpower classe ? i just want have free will in builds and some balance in trees same as balance in playing a mage... if someone is range that dont mean he cant play solo... u know the idea of a mage ? did u read or play soem first D&D ? or Warcraft history ? i dont think so.

Jethrotull
20-11-2006, 11:43 AM
I may be missing the point here, but I think one of the reasons he (they?) are complaining is because with the things you listed, its taking away some of the free will. Sort of heading towards enforced specs.
Previously blizz tried to make the elemental trees better, but screwed up the arc tree in the process. Now instead of trying to even that out they seem to be screwing up the elemental trees somewhat while putting the 'must have' talents into arc.

For any mage to get the buffs you list, they have to go arc. Heavy arc; at least 40 points in it. That sort of negates the fact they have other trees, as the buffs the other trees offer don't quite compare in terms of sheer damage. It takes away some of the self-choice in the matter.


Edit: And it was pointed out to me last night... the AOE thing is potentially bad for groups aswell as just the mages themselves. Lots of mobs up ahead, you want the mage to aoe them... hey, you're used to mages being able to deal with that so you can move on... not gonna be quite so easy anymore... ;)

Well I'm just not sure if it's really the free will that is taken away. I think it's just that people see all the nice stuff and feel 'nerfed' or whatever because they can't get it all.
I played on the PTR for a while trying some builds and yes 40arcane is nice, but you won't crit a whole lot. Now I'm trying 41 frost and I'm loving it a whole lot more. Around 100dmg per frostbolt less but I got the shatter bonus for a lot of extra crits, I had the feeling it was allowing me to kill mobs faster. I'm ofc talking outdoor mobs and not instance bosses ;) Fire will be next to look at but need time to test ;)

Sure the arcane built will probably be the better raiding tree but the dmg output done by other kinds of mages won't be that much lower with Empowered frostbolt/fireball and Molten Fury.
I think we've been given some really nice talenttrees allowing us to be a mage we want to be, if you look at PvP the Dragon's Breath is really nice, and with icebarrier you can't go wrong either but you'll have to choose between going more survival or more dps, or more burstdps or rather the overall dps, all the options are there, all we have to accept i that we can't have it all ;)

About the AoE you're right, but that blue post linked before said that ideally AoE-ing up to 10 mobs at once is desirable and more is exploiting, I can live with that. The 3 it is now is indeed a bit little but 10 is quite a lot. It's not often that you're AoE ing that many mobs at once. I think I usually AoE somewhere between 5 and 8 mobs when farming solo.

Trupiaczacha
20-11-2006, 11:57 AM
you have no idea about pvp as i see... and same gose for pve imo.

WHO in the hell care how u can solo a mobs in farming LOL

all we care is endgame or PvP

rly m8 think littel more plz.

u just say things like ppl that start playing a mage 5 days ego.

Faylin
20-11-2006, 12:01 PM
Can we ban this imbecile?

Flawless
20-11-2006, 12:21 PM
you have no idea about pvp as i see... and same gose for pve imo.

WHO in the hell care how u can solo a mobs in farming LOL

all we care is endgame or PvP

rly m8 think littel more plz.

u just say things like ppl that start playing a mage 5 days ego.

Learn to fucking play and type you ignorant shit.

Learn to adapt, if you think mages are going ot fail at PvP you need to learn to play, if you think you will fail at doing damage you need to learn to play.

If your going to keep crying on SSE that mages are getting changed (along with every other class in the game) you need to reroll.

Trupiaczacha
20-11-2006, 12:33 PM
ha ha ha ha and here come the defenders...

ha ha ha u make me rofl only...




hahahahaha

Flawless
20-11-2006, 12:36 PM
Defender? Im just sick of the constant whining, your the mage cassina.

Trupiaczacha
20-11-2006, 12:41 PM
hahaha....

do someone ask u to come to mage forum ?

nope so stfu if u have noting to say about mages... if u didnt notic its on "mage section"

so ppl talk here about MAGEZ

if u cant see things that are made for mages in TBC its not me problem...

whot for are test servers ? he ? u have any idea ? prolly you dont.

same go for so topics like this....

ppl poiunt out things they dont like and thing are wrong.

if u so blinde !! go read some posts that asura made or lex then u maybe will understend something or u cant ?

Magnar
20-11-2006, 12:42 PM
you have no idea about pvp as i see... and same gose for pve imo.

WHO in the hell care how u can solo a mobs in farming LOL

all we care is endgame or PvP

rly m8 think littel more plz.

u just say things like ppl that start playing a mage 5 days ego.

Learn to fucking play and type you ignorant shit.

I second that. trupiretard proves that even after a year he isn't capable of learning english, which makes me doubt he's capable of learning anything.

Oh, I remember seeing the picture he posted in the picture thread long ago. It pretty much explains it all when i come to think about it.

Hephaestos
20-11-2006, 12:47 PM
Even tho Elexin is partially right (as arcane is the new dominating tree especially for pve and might be so for pvp) the diffirences are not all that big for pvp. Mind you its still beta and a LOT can change in the course of a couple of months.

And regarding pvp trup:
we have snares from frost, root/stun procs from frostbite/impact, root from frostnova, a daze from blastwave, POM from the arc tree..

there is more then enough choise to spec as pvper since mana efficienty is not important at all, so you can race to get a heap of the pvp talents and have a lot of gadgets to go about smelting faces.

And for pve arcane has allways been verry good, even better now that there will only be personal rolling ignites.

Trupiaczacha
20-11-2006, 12:58 PM
I second that. trupiretard proves that even after a year he isn't capable of learning english, which makes me doubt he's capable of learning anything.

Oh, I remember seeing the picture he posted in the picture thread long ago. It pretty much explains it all when i come to think about it.

its normal if ppl dont have nothing to say and know shit about topic they start saying things like u about me english...

heph arc was suport tree for pve... main spells was still fire or frost... in TBC arc will be both... and thats wrong...

for pvp... things like this baste on "luck factor" (impact frostbit) never was so RLY great... moste imba for pvp is and will be IB... rest are mostly instant spells. and build made based on them... u dont have time for spaming Frostbolts etc.

Mind you its still beta and a LOT can change in the course of a couple of months.

and if ppl dont pouint out bad things they will not fix it.

Hephaestos
20-11-2006, 01:05 PM
Arc tree wont be both, as AM even fully talented will still be beaten by frost/fire as main nuke for pve. Mostly because the DPM of AM totally blows. Its nice for clearcasting, but other then that i wouldnt use it much.

Mayb you should read and research a bit more before declaring the end of the world.

Trupiaczacha
20-11-2006, 01:13 PM
Arc tree wont be both, as AM even fully talented will still be beaten by frost/fire as main nuke for pve. Mostly because the DPM of AM totally blows. Its nice for clearcasting, but other then that i wouldnt use it much.

Mayb you should read and research a bit more before declaring the end of the world.

whit build for pure nuking AM will be best nuking spell... at lvl 70. ofc not best DPM but best for nuking... whit best - threat and dmg...

all depends on build u make.

and for making best form Fireball/Frostbolt u need to have 40 in this trees...

so basicly if ppl want optimal build they will go for 40 in arc and then AM > all dmg spells

and so we going back to top that arcc will take spot of fire/frost as main dmg spell




i will do same as Asura rly "u cant learn chicken fly" and stop replying
and will laugh at mages going to arena
when IB prolly can be dispaled and elemnatal will be banished.

Hephaestos
20-11-2006, 02:10 PM
Obviously you underestimate the arcane tree if you think 40ish in fire/frost are better for making your arc/frost dmg better then arc can atm.

Arc offers roughly 6%crit a 10% bigger mana pool, 15%more int, augmenting mind mastery, +50% crits, a bit better mana regen, 2 good tool talents (pom/ap)

after that its only a matter of going for the 21ish pure fire or frost main nuke damage talents and voila.

vattghern
20-11-2006, 02:20 PM
First of, arrogance, calling names and generalising by factions is what puts me off. However I am curious as of what your point here is. After reading those 6 pages so far I fail to see it except the AoE part, and that was adressed in the blue post linked here. Speaking of that I am pretty sure that designers are pretty aware of that fact and the design of new encounters will reflect this (either by lower hp of aoed mobs or lower numbers).

I do also believe that you have to take one thing into account regarding your talent changes. 'Mage' patch buffed mages quite a lot. You cannot deny that, do you? Whether it was too much and how much is an open question. What happens now is some tweaking and adjusting alongside with making new talents for expansion. What would you say when you got those talents if 'mage' patch has not happened?

So please guide me, lowbie 46 mage and point me where you got so nerfed as so far i just see some possibilities for specialisation and actual choices, which in my opinion is good thing making class more appealing. Regarding pvp - what exactly do you need? More CC? More nukes? More survivability?

Curiosity killed the cat.

Ahgey
20-11-2006, 02:41 PM
Warriors are nerfed :/

Asura
20-11-2006, 02:42 PM
Even tho Elexin is partially right (as arcane is the new dominating tree especially for pve and might be so for pvp) the diffirences are not all that big for pvp. Mind you its still beta and a LOT can change in the course of a couple of months.

And regarding pvp trup:
we have snares from frost, root/stun procs from frostbite/impact, root from frostnova, a daze from blastwave, POM from the arc tree..

there is more then enough choise to spec as pvper since mana efficienty is not important at all, so you can race to get a heap of the pvp talents and have a lot of gadgets to go about smelting faces.

And for pve arcane has allways been verry good, even better now that there will only be personal rolling ignites.

Maybe so, but as you should know... I hate forced builds. And if you want to be efficient in raids, at some point there's the situation where some builds just don't cut it.
I had an allrounder build and with the current talents, I don't myself making something like that again and performing well enough in either situation. We're being forced to think in terms of pve build and pvp build. Whereas other classes (eg warlocks) actually get their allrounder build enforced, I'm thinking destro locks here. So when you say we got a lot of "choice", that's a poor choice of words. There's some nice talents maybe, but who's gonna take them if raiding gets serious. You're gonna miss out on a lot more than you had to before.
They also said that starting the mage patch they'd make it possible to make more -viable- builds. They failed to do it back then, they just shifted most out of arcane to some elemental build. And now they're making us shift back. That's the part I really don't like, the "choice".

Where you say we got snares, roots, stun procs, whatnot. I got that -now- (elemental) so don't use it as an excuse on how we would get better. Because that's such an excuse. If anything, you'll lack some of those in tbc, because they are pushing us to a mainly arcane build.
Mind you, I'm not talking about builds to level up, but builds to use when you hit 70. I frankly don't care in how many ways I'll be able to pwn some mob when levelling up.

If anything personal rolling ignites fail more than not. Because at the end of the day, you miss a lot of your dmg on "lost" ignite ticks because something (mob, player,...) dies before it actually did both ticks.
Frankly if I only get 10% (210% vs 200% when fully talented) dmg on a crit than frost which gets a slow effect (situational, obviously not pve) and the crit bonus counted up front (hello important part), I wonder why we still need to bother with the "burden" of ignites. The fact you had rolling ignites just made up for that loss on trash. But only too well, way too well... when people found it how to (ab)use it :p
But I know personal ignites aren't a real "nerf", rather an expected fix. Just saying you shouldn't cheer on personal ignites in any way, it's just your bloody crit bonus, which frost has just as well really. I know you might tell me you can still get your "personal rolling ignites", but that would be a sour joke :P

Edit: And a small addition. When people talk about nerfs on forums, it's pretty easy to not get what they're talking about. You just need to think in relative terms. "He gets more than I do" or "he doesn't lose as much as I do to gain X". Every thing mages do or get seems to have quite an opportunity cost. And some "fixes" hurt us a lot more than most think, hence stuff like that is generally seen as nerfs too. Theoretically they're not, but on the field... they hurt.

Velkraith
20-11-2006, 04:28 PM
We're being forced to think in terms of pve build and pvp build. Whereas other classes (eg warlocks) actually get their allrounder build enforced, I'm thinking destro locks here.

forced into a build... so just like warriors,priests,druids(not in TBC but before then) have had to do and prolly will have to do in tbc as well for god knows how long.

so mages have been given some kick ass talents in basiclly every tree, and ur moaning because its hard to choose wat to take?

weva to go into a raiding build or a pvp build. every class has to make that decision... yes some classes have it easier (rogues) in which pritty much any build will do well. thats the game, you choose which aspect of the game you would like to do best in and thats wat you do.

u cant do both, if you pvp alot u wont have time for raiding, and if u raid alot u wont have time for pvpin to do signifcantly well in ur main choice.


life is all about choices, stop moaning because you cant be amazing in every aspect of the game, choose one and stick at it.

Asura
21-11-2006, 06:14 AM
We're being forced to think in terms of pve build and pvp build. Whereas other classes (eg warlocks) actually get their allrounder build enforced, I'm thinking destro locks here.

forced into a build... so just like warriors,priests,druids(not in TBC but before then) have had to do and prolly will have to do in tbc as well for god knows how long.

so mages have been given some kick ass talents in basiclly every tree, and ur moaning because its hard to choose wat to take?

weva to go into a raiding build or a pvp build. every class has to make that decision... yes some classes have it easier (rogues) in which pritty much any build will do well. thats the game, you choose which aspect of the game you would like to do best in and thats wat you do.

u cant do both, if you pvp alot u wont have time for raiding, and if u raid alot u wont have time for pvpin to do signifcantly well in ur main choice.


life is all about choices, stop moaning because you cant be amazing in every aspect of the game, choose one and stick at it.

I knew somebody was going to bring that up. Except for prot warriors, feral and balance druids -now- (and that's supposedly being changed) I doubt any class can really say it's missing out on an "all round possibility" style of build. Concerning priests, we had everything from disc to shadow on Amaia's pvp team, so I doubt you can say they're limited in choice.
Hunters, locks and rogues are classes that are hardly limited by their builds. I bet you're gonna say but but but we need to change 'em be efficient (in either pve or pvp), as did we already. You usually can't get around doing a fight like Patch, without being as efficient as you can, the whole lot of you. And shatter just makes a world of difference in PvP or soloing.
All I meant is, there's no real allround build -left- for mages afaik, whereas we had before. It's a loss no matter how you turn it. And saying -most- other classes have that as well is an outright lie. Some do, I'd hate to be a prot warrior for PvP, though they have their uses there as well (thinking wsg here then).

I'm under the impression you can do both, Pve and PvP. I've been raiding a fair amount and I have my ways in PvP. And there's numerous other people who do both. So I don't know where you got that claim that. I never asked for an explanation about life though, I'm not in my midlife crisis yet. Oh and, people like you who claim other people moan are the reason serious discussions are usually wasted on any forum.

Edit: Edited for clarity. Errors happens at 6 am ~~

Trupiaczacha
21-11-2006, 09:58 AM
Oh and, people like you who claim other people moan are the reason serious discussions are usually wasted on any forum.

QFT

never got so problems on guild forums ppl just post whot they think and it come out a good discussion.... here its imposibel bec 90% here are forum Trolls.

Robinvi
21-11-2006, 10:07 AM
Amusing thread

Faylin
21-11-2006, 10:32 AM
never got so problems on guild forums ppl just post whot they think and it come out a good discussion.... here its imposibel bec 90% here are forum Trolls.

You might want to read back some of your own posts here, since 74,35% of them could be qualified as trolls. Also 97,67% of the percentages you present seem to lack proof.
Furthermore, investigation shows that if you could improve your English by 53,87%, this would lead to 67,46% less misunderstandings.

vattghern
21-11-2006, 10:40 AM
Still noone cared to explain to me, preferably in few short points, what is it all about.

Psonica
21-11-2006, 10:46 AM
Still noone cared to explain to me, preferably in few short points, what is it all about.

Warlock envy? :lol:

Faylin
21-11-2006, 10:56 AM
yes ;)

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=IVMZMxczIiz0estxx0z :shock:

vattghern
21-11-2006, 11:25 AM
Envy? Why?

Trupiaczacha
21-11-2006, 11:33 AM
never got so problems on guild forums ppl just post whot they think and it come out a good discussion.... here its imposibel bec 90% here are forum Trolls.

You might want to read back some of your own posts here, since 74,35% of them could be qualified as trolls. Also 97,67% of the percentages you present seem to lack proof.
Furthermore, investigation shows that if you could improve your English by 53,87%, this would lead to 67,46% less misunderstandings.

sorry to say but u start Trolling here first whit this pic u post... not me. i just replay on you stupid post.

i just post only about mages.

Ysabella
21-11-2006, 12:18 PM
Warlock envy? :lol:

I thought it was the other way around.. Whenever I read mage forums, there are more locks than mages posting.. And the warlock forums are mostly dead... (Hurry! Run, make a post! It's only been two weeks since the last one).

*just when you thought the thread was comming back on track*

Psonica
21-11-2006, 03:52 PM
Warlock envy? :lol:

*just when you thought the thread was comming back on track*

Totally trolling now (I think I will stop after this):

http://www.irksome-invaders.com/members/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/WoWScrnShot_112106_144609.jpg

Asura
21-11-2006, 07:37 PM
I just love how warlocks can't stay out of the official mage forums. They just had to troll in SSE's mage section as well.

You call -us-, mages, jealous... while there's not a single non-lock alive who will agree your pvp buffs are justifiable to some extent. I didn't touch the PvE part, I can agree with you there. If anything I'd support changes there. And I'm glad you got an improvement there.

I agree there's a lot of ZOMGF BLIZ SUXS etc on the official ones. But there's whiners in every forum. Should I remind everyone of the 200 page "OMG NERF WOTF" thread by warlocks? QQ more frankly. See I can throw petty insults that "win" discussions at you too.

Most posts made today, in this very topic, are only feeding drama and you know it. So really, gj guys, your utterly useful posts in this thread only prove you're of the same level (if not worse) than the one(s) you're trying to mock. And ye I know the irony of continuing it, but at least I'm not guilty of posting hypocrite bullshit.

Trupiaczacha
21-11-2006, 07:46 PM
I just love how warlocks can't stay out of the official mage forums. They just had to troll in SSE's mage section as well.

You call -us-, mages, jealous... while there's not a single non-lock alive who will agree your pvp buffs are justifiable to some extent. I didn't touch the PvE part, I can agree with you there. If anything I'd support changes there. And I'm glad you got an improvement there.

I agree there's a lot of ZOMGF BLIZ SUXS etc on the official ones. But there's whiners in every forum. Should I remind everyone of the 200 page "OMG NERF WOTF" thread by warlocks? QQ more frankly. See I can throw petty insults that "win" discussions at you too.

Most posts made today, in this very topic, are only feeding drama and you know it. So really, gj guys, your utterly useful posts in this thread only prove you're of the same level (if not worse) than the one(s) you're trying to mock. And ye I know the irony of continuing it, but at least I'm not guilty of posting hypocrite bullshit.

pure win.

ber
21-11-2006, 08:08 PM
:hal

vattghern
21-11-2006, 10:52 PM
I think it's 2 pages back*. I asked what would you like to get. Preferably in short, on topic points. See, trying to come up with some ideas or solutions might be the way to go. You can do SWOT for Mages in expansion and put it here.

I also asked from nub mage point of view (mind my mage is 46 and i played him for not even 6 days played). I assume that trolling part was not directed at me however I would like to have my question answered and I will try to be as persistent as I can.

Oh and for Trup. Now you get your retribution for gloating just before the mage patch. Shows how nice it is and how wonderfull it tastes, doesn't it?

(edit: *confirmed, see page 6)

Jethrotull
22-11-2006, 01:32 AM
So please guide me, lowbie 46 mage and point me where you got so nerfed ...

Let's assume that with 'nerf' we either mean losing some of the strength a certain skill would provide, or increasing a skill or talenttree less than other classes, making us 'weaker' in relative terms.

Counterspell will be on the gbc (global cooldown) which it wasn't on before, hence reducing it's effect. We used to have a 4second silence or a 10second spellschool silence. Now that it's placed on the gbc we will effectively lose 1 or 1,5 seconds (I think it's 1 second but not entirely sure) making the spell less powerful than before.

Also there are plans to reduce the damage done to multiple mobs (more than 3 atm, could be 10 in the future, they are thinking about it). Which means that a mage, who gets a lot of his real power from AoE will be less good in what he does best. This hurts us, especially if they will set it to 3. It feels like a rogue losing his stuns because clothies complained to much ;)

This is basicly what is really hitting us, in terms of talenttree's the mages can't really complain imho, wether they are PvP, PvE or a combination of things, I think most mages will find useful talents they can put to their use, I don't see any 'nerfs' there, it's just that the really sweet stuff comes at the highest tiers 'forcing' mages to spec deep into one tree. This ofcourse only applies when you want to actually get these skills. If you keep your current build/playstyle and use the 10 extra points to improve that, then you'll still be you but with skills you now only hoped to have as well.

My two cents, hope it helps. But don't take me too seriously though because apparently I'm a "next stupid aliance mage that can copy all from better mages and run and yell whot other say"

Nimbus
22-11-2006, 09:33 AM
The problem is not that the new talents/trees are bad. The problem is that mages are worrying that for a PVE-raid focused mage going forward there will always be a build that is way superior in terms of doing what a PVE-raiding mage should do, i.e. do mana-efficient ranged DPS with ~10% spellhit and sometimes AoE in a school that doesn't get resisted too much in the content you are currently fighting.

Sometimes this DPS/DPM-optimized build could look very different and left the mages with some flexibility and good tools also in PvP (like when BWL and AQ were released - deep fire or deep frost or some arcane mixed in) and sometimes it wasn't (MC - struggling fire mages, Naxx - rolling ignites and combustion in PvP? lawl).

What I am trying to say is that it seems the new talent trees suggest that there will be one build that will be optimized for raiding that will gimp you in PvP against mages that spec for PvP. I'm not sure this is the case, and I don't know enough about other classes to say if this is a mage specific problem. I suspect that Blizzard will keep building raid encounters that require more cc and movement and in general bag of tricks so that a raid template will require a few different mage builds and not just rolling ignite slaves. For example, the frost elemental might seem kinda useless at first but it has a frost nova that is not PBAE for example and that would be very useful in some Naxx encounters already just to give an example.

Will wait and see, but not so worried. Blizzard want all classes to be happy and keep playing and paying so if mages get their flexibility (not power) gimped in TBC they will fix it eventually and balance out the trees.

captpicard
22-11-2006, 09:44 AM
I also asked from nub mage point of view (mind my mage is 46 and i played him for not even 6 days played).

Ha ha ha mine is 51 now, your slacking! ;D

AnteroVipune
22-11-2006, 09:59 AM
The problem is not that the new talents/trees are bad. The problem is that mages are worrying that for a PVE-raid focused mage going forward there will always be a build that is way superior in terms of doing what a PVE-raiding mage should do, i.e. do mana-efficient ranged DPS with ~10% spellhit and sometimes AoE in a school that doesn't get resisted too much in the content you are currently fighting.

Sometimes this DPS/DPM-optimized build could look very different and left the mages with some flexibility and good tools also in PvP (like when BWL and AQ were released - deep fire or deep frost or some arcane mixed in) and sometimes it wasn't (MC - struggling fire mages, Naxx - rolling ignites and combustion in PvP? lawl).

What I am trying to say is that it seems the new talent trees suggest that there will be one build that will be optimized for raiding that will gimp you in PvP against mages that spec for PvP. I'm not sure this is the case, and I don't know enough about other classes to say if this is a mage specific problem. I suspect that Blizzard will keep building raid encounters that require more cc and movement and in general bag of tricks so that a raid template will require a few different mage builds and not just rolling ignite slaves. For example, the frost elemental might seem kinda useless at first but it has a frost nova that is not PBAE for example and that would be very useful in some Naxx encounters already just to give an example.

Will wait and see, but not so worried. Blizzard want all classes to be happy and keep playing and paying so if mages get their flexibility (not power) gimped in TBC they will fix it eventually and balance out the trees.

So you're saying mages have one superior build for Pve that is gimp in PVP?
ALERT THE PRESS!

!!!! Newsflash !!!!

This just in:
Recent reports show that every dps class is like this!
Who knew?!

/!!!! Newsflash !!!!

Nimbus
22-11-2006, 11:19 AM
So you're saying mages have one superior build for Pve that is gimp in PVP?
ALERT THE PRESS!

!!!! Newsflash !!!!

This just in:
Recent reports show that every dps class is like this!
Who knew?!

/!!!! Newsflash !!!!

Making a mistake by answering in a serious way to anything Ante says, but anyway:

I said this is what is troubling mages, I don't care about other dps classes and didn't write about class balance but talent tree balance for mages. :-)

If you want to bring in other classes to compare, sure there are optimal builds for all classes when it comes to raiding but for mages there has historically been a difference with high end content having encounters that are very fire or frost biased. AQ there might be some nature resists maybe but I haven't yet seen raid content where daggers or 2H-weapons are resisted or where most mobs are immune/resistant to shadow/magic/holy or to ranged weapon attacks.

AnteroVipune
22-11-2006, 11:25 AM
We how ever have glancing blows on every single mob...

Taurusos
22-11-2006, 11:46 AM
So some mages wanna work amazingly both PvE and PvP?

Get in line with all other classes.

/Tau

Nimbus
22-11-2006, 12:01 PM
/sigh

30 minutes of my life wasted. Maybe last time I try to join a discussion about mages in a discussion forum for mages. Or is it?

AnteroVipune
22-11-2006, 12:05 PM
You're so old that I doubt you even remember what we talked about 30mins ago

Kathra
22-11-2006, 12:40 PM
Whats the point in complaining, you are all inferior to moonkin druids whatever happens

Asura
22-11-2006, 12:50 PM
So some mages wanna work amazingly both PvE and PvP?

Get in line with all other classes.

/Tau

Ye because DPS warriors can't do shit in PvP... Right. I'll tell that to the next PvE pre which has warriors 3-4 shotting cloth before I managed to do an instant cast.


/sigh

30 minutes of my life wasted. Maybe last time I try to join a discussion about mages in a discussion forum for mages. Or is it?

But ye, you shouldn't bother. I tried to do serious replies some pages back, it got wasted, since people considered it to be long or I suppose... too hard to take down? Trolling and flaming is so much more easier.

AnteroVipune
22-11-2006, 01:02 PM
So some mages wanna work amazingly both PvE and PvP?

Get in line with all other classes.

/Tau

Ye because DPS warriors can't do shit in PvP... Right. I'll tell that to the next PvE pre which has warriors 3-4 shotting cloth before I managed to do an instant cast.


/sigh

30 minutes of my life wasted. Maybe last time I try to join a discussion about mages in a discussion forum for mages. Or is it?

But ye, you shouldn't bother. I tried to do serious replies some pages back, it got wasted, since people considered it to be long or I suppose... too hard to take down? Trolling and flaming is so much more easier.

Prot warriors however dont do well in PVP.

Also my replies not counting the first few and the last were completely serious.

Trupiaczacha
22-11-2006, 01:09 PM
So some mages wanna work amazingly both PvE and PvP?

Get in line with all other classes.

/Tau

Ye because DPS warriors can't do shit in PvP... Right. I'll tell that to the next PvE pre which has warriors 3-4 shotting cloth before I managed to do an instant cast.


/sigh

30 minutes of my life wasted. Maybe last time I try to join a discussion about mages in a discussion forum for mages. Or is it?

But ye, you shouldn't bother. I tried to do serious replies some pages back, it got wasted, since people considered it to be long or I suppose... too hard to take down? Trolling and flaming is so much more easier.

u know even me eng is crap i try make serious discussion but ppl are more interested in flaming or mooking me eng as adding something to topic...

and well good that there are ppl like asura or nimbus that think exacly same as i do :) or close same about mages :wink:

Nimbus
22-11-2006, 01:20 PM
You're so old that I doubt you even remember what we talked about 30mins ago

Who are you son? And where are my teeth? :shock:

Jethrotull
22-11-2006, 01:27 PM
@Nimbus:

I can't really tell how the future raidcontent will look but I find it hard to believe you can't roughly get a talentbuild that will allow either Raid/PvP or Raid/Pve (yes, some people consider farming fun).

With the Talented Frostbolts and Fireballs in the 35-40 area the total damage output won't be that much lower than with 40 arcane, at least not from what I could see on PTR (kinda missing a few lvl's and spells but for the sake of argument).

If you really are into raiding a lot you might want to go for maximum dmg in raidcontent but if you are missing a few points because you want to get a few talents that are considered really nice for PvP then I don't think that will gimp you that much.

Arcane is not the dps powerhouse that people make believe it to be. Arcane adds some crits, but both frost and fire add more. Arcane adds spelldmg 25% of your intellect. Fireball can get 15% of your spelldmg, frostbolt 10% +5% crit.
Suppose you have 400 int. and +600dmg (reasonable stats for most mages, will most likely be more in tbc, but scaled no doubt).
Arcane gives +100 dmg, Fire gives +90dmg, Frost gives, +60dmg(*6/7) and +5% crit.

Hardly seems forced to me, for the bit of dmg that arcane will provide you over other trees you can get the versatility that these other trees provide. And if you need the regen (Arcane meditation) you still have 43 points left to get the top-tier talents.

I guess we'll have to wait for the expanion to see what content we'll be getting for now now I think most mages can find a build that helps them in both raid and either PvP or PvE(non-raid).

vattghern
22-11-2006, 01:41 PM
Thanks Jethro, Nimbus and Asu (for the quite heated and hot headed chat at ungodly hours). I have it somewhat more clarifed now and see your concerns more vividly, which is what I wanted.

To somewhat comment on some of the issues:
I just find it retarded if the aoe changes go live - unless they will design encounters around that 3 (or 10) aoeable mobs or aoe damage received some scaling (which I know nothing of so far, except channeled aoe). Some changes I see more as reasonable fixes (call then nerfs if you want), ie. the threat reduction change. While I can see their reasoning behind cs being put on gcd, I do not think that it was needed.

Nimbus - at least you haven't wasted these 30 minutes of your life in my case, actually your post was almost exactly what I have been looking for.

Trupiaczacha
22-11-2006, 01:54 PM
I can't really tell how the future raidcontent will look but I find it hard to believe you can't roughly get a talentbuild that will allow either Raid/PvP or Raid/Pve (yes, some people consider farming fun).

well its imposibell. and i saw it in OTD... pouint Asura. :wink: he was missing always some talents that his dmg will be same lvl as other mages in raid. and same go for PvP he was missing talents that will get hit a Win in close battels.

so i dont see fun when u miss always something :( its same as whit gear why u upg it ? bec u want be better and play at same lvl as alll mages in you raiding guild.

With the Talented Frostbolts and Fireballs in the 35-40 area the total damage output won't be that much lower than with 40 arcane, at least not from what I could see on PTR (kinda missing a few lvl's and spells but for the sake of argument).
If you really are into raiding a lot you might want to go for maximum dmg in raidcontent but if you are missing a few points because you want to get a few talents that are considered really nice for PvP then I don't think that will gimp you that much.

well if u dont maximum your's dmg in raids u spot can be taken be someone who will preform better as DD as you do. rem Gruilds raid for Progres for fast lerning and they always go for maximum.

Arcane is not the dps powerhouse that people make believe it to be. Arcane adds some crits, but both frost and fire add more. Arcane adds spelldmg 25% of your intellect. Fireball can get 15% of your spelldmg, frostbolt 10% +5% crit.
Suppose you have 400 int. and +600dmg (reasonable stats for most mages, will most likely be more in tbc, but scaled no doubt).
Arcane gives +100 dmg, Fire gives +75dmg, Frost gives, +60dmg(*6/7) and +5% crit.

Hardly seems forced to me, for the bit of dmg that arcane will provide you over other trees you can get the versatility that these other trees provide. And if you need the regen (Arcane meditation) you still have 43 points left to get the top-tier talents.


well Arcan is best DPS atm. (if blizzz dont balance arc tree) and u anser it selff rly.

in 1 hit it can be not to see so mush... but try it when mage make 500-1000 hits form Frostbolt/Firebal/AM etc then u DMG will go very up and at end importen is (if u raiding guild and like progres) take all to improve you Raid DMG

ok Arcane is not best DPM BUT taking that u get shamans we get Loladins mana regen of mages whit arcn build will be sick so u can cast AM.

I guess we'll have to wait for the expanion to see what content we'll be getting for now now I think most mages can find a build that helps them in both raid and either PvP or PvE(non-raid).

now we can but still its not good but its on nice lvl and ppl cna life whit it....

in TBC it will be even more hard to finde so build. ofc not all mages "chenges" are now for 100% and we dont knwo exacly whot will be need in 25 man raids... maybe some of new things will be need there... but atm it dont look so good. and end fire/frost/arca talents (41) are RLY crap :( and not better as some low tire talents. and thats wrong :(

Taurusos
22-11-2006, 03:00 PM
So some mages wanna work amazingly both PvE and PvP?

Get in line with all other classes.

/Tau

Ye because DPS warriors can't do shit in PvP... Right. I'll tell that to the next PvE pre which has warriors 3-4 shotting cloth before I managed to do an instant cast.


/sigh

30 minutes of my life wasted. Maybe last time I try to join a discussion about mages in a discussion forum for mages. Or is it?

But ye, you shouldn't bother. I tried to do serious replies some pages back, it got wasted, since people considered it to be long or I suppose... too hard to take down? Trolling and flaming is so much more easier.

So you are making assumption on the warrior class´pvp abilities in a situation where there is 4 of them (prolly with healing backup) pounding a clothie or several?

Thats like me turning it around and mentioning how well warriors do one on one with a mage in pvp Asura.

/Tau

Taurusos
22-11-2006, 03:05 PM
Also to add, not all of us are looking to flame or harm you guys...

Seems like as soon as one disagrees its because we hate yours guts or something really emo.

In some aspects I can feel for you guys (pve) but honestly the pvp changes to the class was called for. Was a long time coming.

/Tau

Thrane
22-11-2006, 03:55 PM
Ye because DPS warriors can't do shit in PvP... Right. I'll tell that to the next PvE pre which has warriors 3-4 shotting cloth before I managed to do an instant cast.

DPS warrior = DW fury. 3-4 shotting eh? :P

Also.... in TBC at level 70 DW doesn't stand a chance anymore in PvP apparently. So that leaves one viable build to properly PvP. But we sure as hell have more choices than mages!!

Jethrotull
22-11-2006, 04:07 PM
I made a calculation for AM, Fireball and Frostbolt, taking all possible talents that would increase the certain spell into account. AM was calculated with 61 points in arcane, Fireball with 61 points in Fire (although Crits, imp scorch debuff and Fireball DoT's are NOT included) and Frostbolt with 61 points in frost.
I assumed 400int +600spelldmg

Obviously that's not how a build will look but to see what was the most powerful DPS spell, here are the results:
AM (rank9) = 447dps
Fireball (r13) = 530dps
Frostbolt(r13) = 502dps

My own calculation (http://www.xs4all.nl/~vdpasch/AMftl.xls)

So you see, Arcane missiles cost a lot of mana and are still inferior in dps to Fireballs or frostbolt. I wouldn't put my money on it if the new instances are AQ-40 like (in terms of spellresist)

I do agree with you Trupi that you will always be missing some points, but I think every class has that problem. In general mages won't do bad in the expansion in terms of talents (although the 41-talents are not all that good), PoM+ 40Fire/Frost anyone?
:P

Asura
22-11-2006, 04:30 PM
well its imposibell. and i saw it in OTD... pouint Asura. :wink: he was missing always some talents that his dmg will be same lvl as other mages in raid. and same go for PvP he was missing talents that will get hit a Win in close battels.

so i dont see fun when u miss always something :( its same as whit gear why u upg it ? bec u want be better and play at same lvl as alll mages in you raiding guild.

No, I'm past the point where I sacrifice all for only half my online time (raids). It's generally not worth it. If people don't prepare, I don't need to be superefficient and die anyway. Sides the content we hit, didn't ask for that anyway. I always said that the day we went serious in Nax, I'd change even if I hated it.
However, to do a weekly "farm" run in AQ40... I wouldn't wanna dream of being gimped in PvP or for soloing matters just because it makes me 10% better in a raid for content we've beaten anyway. I'm sorry, but that's just me after 2 dead raid groups. That and the fact I just love non-scripted PvP action where you see the pure frustration of your enemies.
So anyway, temporary I wouldn't mind making that switch, but not permanently.
Turning around your statement I don't see the fun of looking "hot" on dmgmeters and dying horribly in bgs like most of the PvE freaks decked in t3 ;p




So you are making assumption on the warrior class´pvp abilities in a situation where there is 4 of them (prolly with healing backup) pounding a clothie or several?

Thats like me turning it around and mentioning how well warriors do one on one with a mage in pvp Asura.

/Tau

I was just continuing the "funny" thread. Everyone trolled at that point, so I could as well.

Trupiaczacha
22-11-2006, 10:18 PM
I made a calculation for AM, Fireball and Frostbolt, taking all possible talents that would increase the certain spell into account. AM was calculated with 61 points in arcane, Fireball with 61 points in Fire (although Crits, imp scorch debuff and Fireball DoT's are NOT included) and Frostbolt with 61 points in frost.
I assumed 400int +600spelldmg

Obviously that's not how a build will look but to see what was the most powerful DPS spell, here are the results:
AM (rank9) = 447dps
Fireball (r13) = 530dps
Frostbolt(r13) = 502dps

My own calculation (http://www.xs4all.nl/~vdpasch/AMftl.xls)

So you see, Arcane missiles cost a lot of mana and are still inferior in dps to Fireballs or frostbolt. I wouldn't put my money on it if the new instances are AQ-40 like (in terms of spellresist)

I do agree with you Trupi that you will always be missing some points, but I think every class has that problem. In general mages won't do bad in the expansion in terms of talents (although the 41-talents are not all that good), PoM+ 40Fire/Frost anyone?
:P

i dont want be rude but whit me curent gear at lvl 60 whit 396 int and +589dmg me Fireball(rank 12) is DPS = 545,0.

so i think u made wrong mats :)

Jethrotull
22-11-2006, 10:36 PM
that's because crits are included.

I did not include crits because you could roughly say crits work out the same for all trees, with arcane you get a 'bigger crits' talent but with frost and fire you get more crits from talents, to save myself the complication I just left crits out and looked at 'raw' dps. So it makes sense your current dps is higher. It includes crits :P

I will try to include crits later on in the overall calculation (takes some time) but I doubt it will change the difference much :)

Trupiaczacha
22-11-2006, 10:45 PM
me too whit crits i have DPS = 574.6 so something is wrong :)

Magnar
22-11-2006, 10:57 PM
I made a calculation for AM, Fireball and Frostbolt, taking all possible talents that would increase the certain spell into account. AM was calculated with 61 points in arcane, Fireball with 61 points in Fire (although Crits, imp scorch debuff and Fireball DoT's are NOT included) and Frostbolt with 61 points in frost.
I assumed 400int +600spelldmg

Obviously that's not how a build will look but to see what was the most powerful DPS spell, here are the results:
AM (rank9) = 447dps
Fireball (r13) = 530dps
Frostbolt(r13) = 502dps

My own calculation (http://www.xs4all.nl/~vdpasch/AMftl.xls)

So you see, Arcane missiles cost a lot of mana and are still inferior in dps to Fireballs or frostbolt. I wouldn't put my money on it if the new instances are AQ-40 like (in terms of spellresist)

I do agree with you Trupi that you will always be missing some points, but I think every class has that problem. In general mages won't do bad in the expansion in terms of talents (although the 41-talents are not all that good), PoM+ 40Fire/Frost anyone?
:P

i dont want be rude but whit me curent gear at lvl 60 whit 396 int and +589dmg me Fireball(rank 12) is DPS = 545,0.

so i think u made wrong mats :)
Does it matter if the difference between the same 3 examples are the same?

Jethrotull
22-11-2006, 11:07 PM
Ok here is it with crits, still pretty rough because crit's vary, spells resisting are ignored and druid aura's, wizard oils and what else is hard to include, this is pure theorycraft so don't use your titanpanel to point out how wrong I am, I am aware of this inaccuracy, it's just to give you an idea, namely that AM is not the best dps spell. I also updated the spreadsheet.

AM= 507
Fireball= 760
Frostbolt= 653

You will find I also included winter's chill and the imp. scorch debuff. (http://www.xs4all.nl/~vdpasch/AMftl.xls)

Trupiaczacha
22-11-2006, 11:28 PM
im to lazy to make all this mats... but i will finde this post and made link how AM will be better taking all aspects whit -threat, resists etc.

Illuminati
23-11-2006, 12:00 AM
Peeked at arcane blast lately?

Kinshara
23-11-2006, 12:08 AM
Peeked at arcane blast lately?

Hmm, hits pretty hard in pvp vids, but how mana efficient is it? Cost goes up with subsequent casts... anyone found out how much yet?

Illuminati
23-11-2006, 12:13 AM
Peeked at arcane blast lately?

Hmm, hits pretty hard in pvp vids, but how efficient is it? Cost goes up with subsequent casts... anyone found out how much yet?

Roughly the most mana inefficient 'nuke' once it's fully ramped up, but it certainly seems the way to go for questions regarding 'best dps'.
This doesen't mean arcane will be de facto spec for raiding in TBC though.
Put a fire mage at patch, woo nice damage.
Put a frost mage with shatter at maexxna, woo nice damage.
Put a TBC arcane mage in a 1 minute fight, woo insane damage.
Reverse the roles a bit, and you'll find it's the most common encounters that determine what the optimal dps spec is, and only the arrival of TBC can truly answer that.

From what beta sites report, it costs in the area of 680 mana once fully ramped up, 195 at first cast.

On the flipside, it's quite efficient and threat-friendly if it's kept unstacked, making it a seemingly good spell to weave in between fireballs for conserving mana and - to some degree - limit potential new threat problems in tbc.

My conclusion is that it can serve as a multipurpose spell. Mana dump or mana conserve - your choice :p

Jethrotull
23-11-2006, 12:51 AM
Perhaps, but we are talking Arcane blast now, which appears to be a mana-inefficient, nuking spell (after a few stacks).
We were talking about the Arcane tree as a whole being the way to go for raiding mages, and I pointed out that Arcane missiles are very costly in terms of mana use and by far not the best dps possibility a mage has. Ofcourse, where everyone seems to agree, we will have to await TBC to see what the new endgame raiding will look like, especially in terms of spellresist (another MC-like instance will 'force' most mages into frost again) and the type of encounter.

I have good faith there won't be anymore endgame raiding with the majority of the mobs resisting a certain kind of magic (being arcane, fire or frost) and reasoning from that point of view I am suggesting a fire or frost oriented build as 'the way to go' rather than saying arcane is definitely the new raiding mage thing.

In addition, I've heard the words PvP a lot as well, and how you are missing some important talents if you spec into a raiding build. Keep in mind that you can keep the same build you have now and use the 10 extra talent points to get those extra skills you are lacking now. The 35-40 talents basicly only provide some extra damage in a tree you are investing heavily in already, e.g. if you have a 0/27/24 now you can finally get that ice-barrier and in addition increase your fire dmg a bit.
Don't mock me for not knowing the ideal pvp-spec, I only care about PvE tbh, the idea stays the same.
Fire and Frost have a lot of nice spells in the whole tree where arcane starts to get interesting after you spend 15 or so points imho.

ber
23-11-2006, 12:58 AM
I knew somebody was going to bring that up. Except for prot warriors, feral and balance druids -now- (and that's supposedly being changed) I doubt any class can really say it's missing out on an "all round possibility" style of build. Concerning priests, we had everything from disc to shadow on Amaia's pvp team, so I doubt you can say they're limited in choice.
Hunters, locks and rogues are classes that are hardly limited by their builds. I bet you're gonna say but but but we need to change 'em be efficient (in either pve or pvp), as did we already. You usually can't get around doing a fight like Patch, without being as efficient as you can, the whole lot of you. And shatter just makes a world of difference in PvP or soloing.

Wrong. Every class has it's own pve & pvp specs. Horde side of Shadowsong isn't just a very good place to spot it since half of the people in raidgroups are specced how they please.

Yes, you can go with some all around specs aswell, but it gimps your pve (for example) a lot if you choose to replace even few points on certain classes. Some classes can replace a few more points without losing the pve-spec at all, good for them.

After having raided here in SS in a guild which didn't really force specs that much to every class and having compared it to a raidingguild where every class had to spec 100% pve the difference was huge.

Basicly if ppl in a raidguild decide to spec however they want to, or even try to find all around builds, they really can't expect to make fast progress in pve, or even to wtfpwn in pvp.

Faylin
23-11-2006, 10:00 AM
Good posts Jethro, after seeing the trees it seemed to me Arcane Missles would be the highest possible DPS, but appereantly they're not.
And since it's a shit spell anyway.... I'd like to stay away from it as much as possible.

So all in all it seems viable to just expand my current elemental build a little, this is what I have in mind:
0/30/31 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=RZxgMzcccoxZVhGhobxsbo)
Survivability from frost and DPS from fire.

Arcane, like you said, is only worth it if you dig in very deep, as everything till 20 is sub-par.
And if you take 40 Arcane, the only option seems to me to combine it with frost, cause Fire has it's best damage talents between the 20 and 30, while frost has them earlier.
And I simply don't like frost as my main damage tree :-x

The build I linked should work very well solo and pretty decent in PvP while not sacrificing too much for PvE grouping.

Nimbus
23-11-2006, 11:11 AM
Good posts Jethro, after seeing the trees it seemed to me Arcane Missles would be the highest possible DPS, but appereantly they're not.
And since it's a shit spell anyway.... I'd like to stay away from it as much as possible.

So all in all it seems viable to just expand my current elemental build a little, this is what I have in mind:
0/30/31 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=RZxgMzcccoxZVhGhobxsbo)
Survivability from frost and DPS from fire.

Arcane, like you said, is only worth it if you dig in very deep, as everything till 20 is sub-par.
And if you take 40 Arcane, the only option seems to me to combine it with frost, cause Fire has it's best damage talents between the 20 and 30, while frost has them earlier.
And I simply don't like frost as my main damage tree :-x

The build I linked should work very well solo and pretty decent in PvP while not sacrificing too much for PvE grouping.

Looking at that build just underlines the point that to have a flexible build you get almost nothing of the new talents and you are very very gimped for high end raiding. Not saying its a bad build, although a bit wondering about your choice of frost talents if its just for utility and not for damage ;-)

I was hoping fire would still be best DPS/DPM and was myself thinking of something like the following link if this shows to be true:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=kf0VZxgMdbcIReRt0h

Should be sufficiently high in endgame raid DPS both single target and AoE and still have a few fire tricks to use in PvP. Dragonbreath+Flamestrike+Blastwave is happy fun time for any kind of party :-)

Faylin
23-11-2006, 11:41 AM
Offcourse it's still hard to judge how important a pure raiding spec will be in TBC.
What I am trying to say is that with group sizes getting smaller, I am somewhat expecting gameplay to look more like the 5 mans we are used to then like the current 40 mans. (Meaning there is use for slowing/freezing and therefore for shatter)

The very, very gimped part I am not so sure about. What am I missing vs your deep fire build?

Playing with fire: I guess usefull if you want to maximize dps output, but since spell damage is already my main reason for dying in all honesty it seems like a shit talent to me.
Blazing Speed Nice talent, but obviously doesnt influence spell dmg and is less needed if you got frost for survival.
Combustion: Love it now but looses some/ a lot of its appeal with ignite getting nerfed
Molten Fury: Possibly a very good raiding talent, depending on how long the average fight in TBC will be... if we are looking at at least 5-10 minute fights, this might be a reason to go deeper into fire.
Pyromaniac: Probably the best one you're missing if you don't go deeper into fire. Very solid talent, and makes Playing With Fire look like utter shit..win/win talent vs win/loose talent. Silly.
Empowered Fireball: Obviously nice to boost your main damage spell, but it really seems weak to me for such a deep talent. 25 dps increase from 5 talent points, meh dunno. I feel this talent should get a boost or be a 3 pointer.
(Also week compared to empowered frostbolts and especially week compared to emp. AM)
Dragon's Breath: Same timer as CoC, so obviously no increase in damage from getting this one.

Just dunno, for all the survivability you are getting back from frost..
Obviously it all depends on how raiding at 70 looks like, which I don't have a clue about.

P.S.: someone on the official forums calculated that fireball damage with 40 arcane/21 fire was better then fireball damage with deep fire. Also something to think about.

Here it is:

We're assuming 500 +dmg gear base, 400 intellect, AQ20 rank of Fireball (678 average damage, 410 mana), 10% crit on gear (+6% from intellect):

Deep fire's damage output:

((500)xEmpowered Fireball) + 678) x Imp. Scorch x Fire Power x Playing with Fire = 1632,6

Crit: 3428,5
Crit rate: 10 + 6 + 3 + 6 = 25%

Average damage output without Combustion and Molten Fury: 0,25 x 3428,5 + 0,75 x 1632,6 = 2081,6
Adding 4% extra damage on Molten Fury (20% extra damage under 20% health) = 2164,8
Adding 3 crits gained from Combustion every 3 minutes (+89,7 damage per Fireball) = 2254,5

DPS: 751,5

Arcane-fire's damage output:

(500 + (400 x 1,15)x0,25 + 678) x Arcane Instability x Imp. Scorch = 1531,56

Crit: 3752,3
Crit rate: 10 + 6 + 3 + 3 = 22%
Average damage output without Arcane Power: 0,22 x 3752,3 + 0,78 x 1531,56 = 2020,12
Adding 8% damage boost for Arcane Power: 2020,12 x 1,08 = 2181,73
Adding 1,6% damage boost for 1 free Fireball (PoM - note - 1,5s GCD after PoM-Fireball included): 2216,6

DPS: 738,87

See how small the difference is? Now count in the fact that Arcane has MUCH superior burst and considerably better mana regeneration, as well as scales better with gear (intellect AND +dmg). What do you get at level 70?
edit: that would be something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=kf0Vf0fzxIziZxgMzcM0o) I guess

Kinshara
23-11-2006, 12:45 PM
P.S.: someone on the official forums calculated that fireball damage with 40 arcane/21 fire was better then fireball damage with deep fire. Also something to think about.

I think that's what Trup is complaining about. If the raid fights are straight nuking, that kind of build comes out on top.

If Blizzard actually make fights where something besides nuke spam is required frequently, then other builds may be more useful. Tis up to Blizzard's dungeon designers to make different specs desired, really.

Nimbus
23-11-2006, 01:00 PM
Interesting math but have not read up on theorycraft from TBC enough to know when in the calculation the different bonuses from talents are added and somehow feels like there are some errors there. Also this calculation is very crit-dependent. Most raiding mages go for +hit instead of +crit when it comes to gear. Would probably be a bigger difference if lower +crit from gear.

Guess we will all have to wait and see, unless someone in Beta can shed some light on DPS/DPM of different builds? :-)

Asura
23-11-2006, 03:03 PM
Wrong. Every class has it's own pve & pvp specs. Horde side of Shadowsong isn't just a very good place to spot it since half of the people in raidgroups are specced how they please.

Yes, you can go with some all around specs aswell, but it gimps your pve (for example) a lot if you choose to replace even few points on certain classes. Some classes can replace a few more points without losing the pve-spec at all, good for them.

After having raided here in SS in a guild which didn't really force specs that much to every class and having compared it to a raidingguild where every class had to spec 100% pve the difference was huge.

Basicly if ppl in a raidguild decide to spec however they want to, or even try to find all around builds, they really can't expect to make fast progress in pve, or even to wtfpwn in pvp.

I really don't see where you disagree with me there but hey, might just be me.

Kinshara
23-11-2006, 03:41 PM
Wrong. Every class has it's own pve & pvp specs. Horde side of Shadowsong isn't just a very good place to spot it since half of the people in raidgroups are specced how they please.

Yes, you can go with some all around specs aswell, but it gimps your pve (for example) a lot if you choose to replace even few points on certain classes. Some classes can replace a few more points without losing the pve-spec at all, good for them.

After having raided here in SS in a guild which didn't really force specs that much to every class and having compared it to a raidingguild where every class had to spec 100% pve the difference was huge.

Basicly if ppl in a raidguild decide to spec however they want to, or even try to find all around builds, they really can't expect to make fast progress in pve, or even to wtfpwn in pvp.

I really don't see where you disagree with me there but hey, might just be me.

I think it was:

Hunters, locks and rogues are classes that are hardly limited by their builds. I bet you're gonna say but but but we need to change 'em be efficient (in either pve or pvp), as did we already.

that Uber disagreed with. All classes miss out on significant pvp talents if they spec to be the best in pve right now(and vice-versa) -- -so they *are* limited by builds. If instance design doesn't change much in TBC, it'll be the same thing there.

ber
23-11-2006, 06:12 PM
Touche.

Asura
24-11-2006, 02:16 AM
I think it was:

Hunters, locks and rogues are classes that are hardly limited by their builds. I bet you're gonna say but but but we need to change 'em be efficient (in either pve or pvp), as did we already.

that Uber disagreed with. All classes miss out on significant pvp talents if they spec to be the best in pve right now(and vice-versa) -- -so they *are* limited by builds. If instance design doesn't change much in TBC, it'll be the same thing there.

Touché? Yes and no.

I suppose sed nuking with a deathcoil mixed in really is totally impossible without any PvP talents? 3 shotting mages as a hunter with a PvE spec is also unheard of! Sure, it's not "stylish". Sure, it doesn't give you the same chances to kill your target as with a PvP spec. But if it does the job, who honestly cares?

And rogues... you're right, I was wrong there. Call it a built-in rogue hate defence mechanism. With a -pure- PvE spec, they're the most vulnerable of the three I mentionned really. They could still outplay you with a decent amount of skill, due to our (mages') sheer low hp and with a healthy portion of luck, but shouldn't if the mage plays it right.

The thing is... who are you putting up against eachother for that comparison? You'd notice that if you take PvE minded people from all those 4 classes, hunters and warlocks really aren't aslimited as you'd like to think or as you seem to state. They're obviously not gonna be -as- efficient as their PvP minded alter egos, but I don't think anybody was claiming that.

Note that the assumption I make/made was that PvE minded players are in general better geared on average, mostly more than making up for their lack of PvP minded builds compared to their PvP alter egos. This especially versus low survivability classes like the mage, being the point of view I have to use.

The rest of the reply was mostly the same.

Vege
24-11-2006, 07:44 AM
The thing is... who are you putting up against eachother for that comparison? You'd notice that if you take PvE minded people from all those 4 classes, hunters and warlocks really aren't aslimited as you'd like to think or as you seem to state. They're obviously not gonna be -as- efficient as their PvP minded alter egos, but I don't think anybody was claiming that.
Completly wrong. Give me hunter without Scatter, and put it against frost mage, rogue or warr in melee range. Oh my, guess what will happen? With scatter at least I can survive.
Ye, we can nuke with clearly pve build but pve specced mages can it too, so?

Faylin
24-11-2006, 08:32 AM
Scattershot is easily fit in in a PvE build. Also... it really doesn't save you against a mage. Scatter lasts what? 4 seconds? Frost nova lasts 8.

Gruze
24-11-2006, 08:46 AM
Scattershot is easily fit in in a PvE build. Also... it really doesn't save you against a mage. Scatter lasts what? 4 seconds? Frost nova lasts 8.

ok, scatter and one interrupted cast then? :p scatter is 4 sec + frostbolt or something's casting time.. and the hunter still got FD to interrupt another spellcast :p

Vege
24-11-2006, 09:22 AM
Scattershot is easily fit in in a PvE build. Also... it really doesn't save you against a mage. Scatter lasts what? 4 seconds? Frost nova lasts 8.
Sure, but how it works in raid dungeons? Not many mobs except ZG (where ofc are exceptions) are vulnerable to scatter, few trashes in BwL for sure. Afair works on Fankriss adds too, but never tried to scatter mobs in AQ or Naxx, as it wasn't needed tbh. So yes, scatter fits in raid build, but as mostly useless skill.
ok, scatter and one interrupted cast then? scatter is 4 sec + frostbolt or something's casting time.. and the hunter still got FD to interrupt another spellcast
Not to mention that with some luck and no-lag I'm able to scatter mage before he FN me. Also, scatter is great for aoe-fearers stopping.

Faylin
24-11-2006, 09:22 AM
Unless they are epic geared instants usually do the trick vs. hunters.
Also admitted... most of em just suck. Good hunters are tougher.
(obviously if they get the chance to open with aimed I'm a sad panda too :))

Thing is most hunters just get so confused when you blink in melee range they start doing all kinds of silly things..

Faylin
24-11-2006, 09:23 AM
Scattershot is easily fit in in a PvE build. Also... it really doesn't save you against a mage. Scatter lasts what? 4 seconds? Frost nova lasts 8.
Sure, but how it works in raid dungeons? Not many mobs except ZG (where ofc are exceptions) are vulnerable to scatter, few trashes in BwL for sure. Afair works on Fankriss adds too, but never tried to scatter mobs in AQ or Naxx, as it wasn't needed tbh. So yes, scatter fits in raid build, but as mostly useless skill.

I'm not saying scatter is usefull in groups, but it's only 1 point in Marksmanship, so not hard to "waste" that one point for solo/pvp.

Isn't 21/30 a popular build?

Vege
24-11-2006, 09:28 AM
It is, because this is one of pvp builds tbh ;-). And Wyvern sting is kinda useless now even more (on the other hand it's kind of suprise for enemy).

ber
24-11-2006, 09:33 AM
I suppose sed nuking with a deathcoil mixed in really is totally impossible without any PvP talents? 3 shotting mages as a hunter with a PvE spec is also unheard of! ..

.. You'd notice that if you take PvE minded people from all those 4 classes, hunters and warlocks really aren't aslimited as you'd like to think or as you seem to state. They're obviously not gonna be -as- efficient as their PvP minded alter egos, but I don't think anybody was claiming that.

This applies aswell to mages, they can nuke their opponents just as a lock can. Unheard of maybe? :P And other casters can be 3 shotted by hunters just as well as mages, there isn't really other options than to deal with it or reroll some non-cloth class.

And like mentioned by me earlier, and by Vege in the first post on this page, purely pve specced hunter isn't really a killing machine in BGs, they won't be having for example scatter shot (which was mentioned aswell in Vege's post) and a hunter without scatter shot is a dead hunter in pvp.

This pve/pvp spec doesn't really apply only to mages, believe me. :wink:

Rogues could still outplay you with a decent amount of skill, due to our (mages') sheer low hp and with a healthy portion of luck, but shouldn't if the mage plays it right.

Yes, I could ofcourse aswell lose to a mage with my lock but I shouldn't if I played it right. Or to a warrior, or a shaman etc. :?

And yes, my lock IS 100% pvp specced/geared. May he rest in peace now though. :P

Ofcourse there isn't going to be a perfect balance between classes where taking one point from pvp to pve would reduce the pvp ablities of all classes in the same way, asking things like that is just absurd. Imo it's just good that you have to do choices with most classes instead of having easy all around builds.

I have to do things the hard way with my warrior/rogue/paladin, lots of sacrificing to do for with them but that's the way it is, if I get bored of my prot specced warrior doing minimum dmg I just switch to my rogue and stab away. And when I get bored of him dying instantly of a squirrelbite I change back to my brickwall warrior. :D

The paladin has 31/20/0 build atm, 100% pve specced. Nuff said about his pvp abilities. :(

Kinshara
24-11-2006, 09:59 AM
I suppose sed nuking with a deathcoil mixed in really is totally impossible without any PvP talents? 3 shotting mages as a hunter with a PvE spec is also unheard of! Sure, it's not "stylish". Sure, it doesn't give you the same chances to kill your target as with a PvP spec. But if it does the job, who honestly cares?

Deathcoil, fear kiting, and seduce nuking are always possible, spose you're right there.

As for pve hunters 3 shotting mages... pve mages can 3 shot hunters as well. Normally poly->pyro->couple instants to finish off, maybe with frost nova to root in the deadzone. Does it rely on getting crits? Yes, but so does the aimed->auto->multi if you want to kill a mage that quickly. If the mage starts casting poly in scattershot range it'll probably go badly for them though(incapacitate rather than stun, so you can't blink out of it; and current 31 fire Naxx builds lack iceblock). A hunter will usually have a higher crit chance, so it may happen more often for them than for a mage, but it's still possible for both.

Also, you were taking it purely from a hunter vs. mage point of view, whereas I'm not. The extra pvp talents make a large difference in fights vs. melee based classes; while you might just retort "kite them then", that usually doesn't work on a battleground or a duel. Sometimes it does, but you'll often run into either a boundary or another enemy. World pvp (which we're lacking a bit of on SS) would favour kiting more ofc.

Tsarina
24-11-2006, 10:06 AM
Completly wrong. Give me hunter without Scatter, and put it against frost mage, rogue or warr in melee range. Oh my, guess what will happen? With scatter at least I can survive.
Ye, we can nuke with clearly pve build but pve specced mages can it too, so?Why would a hunter not have scattershot? What talent is it you drop to get it? Bestial Wrath? Wyvern Sting? Are those raid talents? Show a raid DPS build without scattershot. And then show me Bigfoot. Finding Bigfoot might be easier.

Kinshara
24-11-2006, 10:31 AM
Why would a hunter not have scattershot? What talent is it you drop to get it? Bestial Wrath? Wyvern Sting? Are those raid talents? Show a raid DPS build without scattershot. And then show me Bigfoot. Finding Bigfoot might be easier.

It is possible, for the misguided few.... some people decide to take points away from scatter et al to place in imp. hunter's mark, "for the good of the raid". Despite the effect being negligible for a group of say, 5 hunters(about the most you'll ever see in current 40 mans). There might be more call for it in the expansion, however, since it gets changed to affect melee damage as well. But I'd still go for scatter even then.

If they decide to pvp with such a spec, they deserve the thrashing they receive imho. Scatter is just too useful to pass up.

Vege
24-11-2006, 10:36 AM
Completly wrong. Give me hunter without Scatter, and put it against frost mage, rogue or warr in melee range. Oh my, guess what will happen? With scatter at least I can survive.
Ye, we can nuke with clearly pve build but pve specced mages can it too, so?
Why would a hunter not have scattershot? What talent is it you drop to get it? Bestial Wrath? Wyvern Sting? Are those raid talents? Show a raid DPS build without scattershot. And then show me Bigfoot. Finding Bigfoot might be easier.
I wrote already that current Wyvern is sucky (what will change in 2.0.1, maybe), also, never been in ez-mode more than imp revive for lvling. And had scatter in every build. TBH I've seen raiding hunters without Scatter, and I don't think they were sucky. Ofc, when You are choosing scatter, You aren't gimping Your dps a lot, and as I wrote before, scatter is kinda useless in pure raid pve and You can choose some other talents to help a bit with Your or Yours raid dps, not tier7 ones.

ber
24-11-2006, 12:53 PM
Completly wrong. Give me hunter without Scatter, and put it against frost mage, rogue or warr in melee range. Oh my, guess what will happen? With scatter at least I can survive.
Ye, we can nuke with clearly pve build but pve specced mages can it too, so?Why would a hunter not have scattershot? What talent is it you drop to get it? Bestial Wrath? Wyvern Sting? Are those raid talents? Show a raid DPS build without scattershot. And then show me Bigfoot. Finding Bigfoot might be easier.

The only reason a hunter wouldn't have scatter shot was to be 100% pveraidspecced as mentioned many times in earlier posts. And like mentioned here before me, having a talent like improved hunter's mark can benefit the raid more than having scatter shot.

This ofcourse doesn't mean in any way that it would be wise to every pvehunter to spec like this and forget their most valuable pvp talent, merely just toying with the 100% pveraidspec idea. :P

Asura
24-11-2006, 01:29 PM
Whoei, that reply was popular ~~

@ Vege: Ye of course, without scatter it'll hurt a lot more. Question is why hunters wouldn't bother taking that for the measly point it costs. Most actually do afaik, even with a pure pve mindset. The trade-off in terms of PvE efficiency loss is way smaller than what you gain for soloing/PvP.

@ Beatus: Nifty comparison really. Trap lasts how long compared to frost nova? Keeping in mind that most high end PvE specced ones ended up being arc/fire. You know you can just put up stuff against eachother like that and create a discussion without end. Saying instants just take away 4k+ hp (and that woul be unbuffed) or somesuch would be rather rare, unless you're thinking PoM+bolt. Because as I said I went with the assumption PvE minded people usually have decent gear and frankly my instant don't quite dent those. The confused part, well those suck frankly and shouldn't queue for bgs :P

@ Uber: I really suggest you try 3sec casts without the seduction to keep people off of you. Nuking as a mage is one of those cruel myths. You see those trinket mage vids, those mage bombers in tbc and whatnot and mages suddenly rock. I'm not saying they suck, but whichever opponent who lets you cast for 3 secs without even trying to interrupt it in some way (for all I care running around him) is just asking for a swift death. "Nuking" isn't something frequently happening in a 1v1, it should only be possible when you're hiding behind others. Even Tseric admitted that back in the days, which "nearly" cost him his job seeing the drama following that xP

As a closing statement, I could agree to seperate builds being normal if every class had that. But even then, I'm annoyed because the game -for me- doesn't exist out of raiding solely. It's an important part, but there's other stuff as well. The fact that a build limits your options to have fun in both situations is a pretty sad evolution frankly.
Now as I said, I could live with it, if all classes went to that. But afaik destro locks keep their PvP niftyness and add some PvE tools to that, which makes it look like they got an "all round build". Sure, they may not be as efficient in either situation, but at least they can still do both without having to lose 50g for 2 days of PvP fun. So all in all, saying all classes are ending up with the PvE/PvP choice may be true, but only to some extent. It depends how much you think those few extra talent points are worth.

Hephaestos
24-11-2006, 01:30 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3756629738003675684&q=burning+crusade


its fien! :P

ber
24-11-2006, 01:48 PM
Hahah that was awesome. :P

Reminds of the second time I *REALLY* were cursing about not frapsing maybe the best kill ever with my rogue. I got engineering on that char and was visiting blackrock mountain for some good oldschool ganking.

Well, everyone knows the shortcut to get to MC/BRD from Searing Gorge's entrace to blackrock mountain, where you walk straight in from the entrance and jump to the ledge in the air and jump down from there to the ledge near the lava. Anyways, there I was stalking around when I saw a lock enter BRM and jump down from there. He jumped down and started summoning & eating.

It was one of those moments where you can see the whole thing happening before it has happened, knowing that you will execute the plan prefectly in few seconds. :D

Unstealth, sprint, jump towards the ledge down there, pop Parachute Cloak , stealth & ambush the low hp lock from midair.

It was so beautiful I almost cried. :P

Asura
24-11-2006, 01:55 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3756629738003675684&q=burning+crusade


its fien! :P

Months behind.

Vege
24-11-2006, 02:10 PM
@ Vege: Ye of course, without scatter it'll hurt a lot more. Question is why hunters wouldn't bother taking that for the measly point it costs. Most actually do afaik, even with a pure pve mindset. The trade-off in terms of PvE efficiency loss is way smaller than what you gain for soloing/PvP.
Yeah, You're right. On the other side - find a hunter that is worth something without putting 14-21 t. points in MM tree now.
You mentioned also about 3sec cast time - aimed?:> With range restrictions even?:D

Back to the mage topic - I think, that You are overreaction a bit (Trupia more than a bit for sure, whining as always). Some of this things may (and will, Blizz still is messing with talents and skills) change, for sure You will have to adapt and learn, but that affects most of classes (just look at hunters, with whole mechanic being changed, almost new class with old skills).

Asura
24-11-2006, 07:10 PM
You mentioned also about 3sec cast time - aimed?:> With range restrictions even?:D


You do realise that's one of the only things hunters have with an actual "cast time" :P



Back to the mage topic - I think, that You are overreaction a bit (Trupia more than a bit for sure, whining as always). Some of this things may (and will, Blizz still is messing with talents and skills) change, for sure You will have to adapt and learn, but that affects most of classes (just look at hunters, with whole mechanic being changed, almost new class with old skills)

Well it's a discussion. And since you always have other classes popping in it saying "amegz r fien", you have to put more emphasis on what you think will affect you negatively, since they can't and won't, to show why you're worried about the changes.
In the end, I won't be rerolling or anything. It'll be annoying to get used to the new stuff but eventually we all will. The whole build thing is probably because I can't really decide on a build I'd be "perfectly" happy with. Something that would work in PvP without ruining my performance in PvE. But then I can't test 'em in the beta, so that might explain that part. There's only so much you can do with raw numbers.

Flawless
24-11-2006, 11:25 PM
As for the emphasis on what you think will affect you, how about a list of the "bad" changes, and why you think its going to effect you drastically? usually works better than walls of text screaming that your getting nerfed with very little explanation.

Asura
25-11-2006, 02:27 AM
It's strategy, you see. People who want to troll don't read lengthy discussions! :p

Kathra
25-11-2006, 03:21 AM
It's strategy, you see. People who want to troll don't read lengthy discussions! :p

TLDR

Jethrotull
25-11-2006, 05:44 AM
Meh, and I actually had high hopes we'd find the truth through discussion and that way came closer to God, or God-like status for that matter.

Silly me :P

Malison
25-11-2006, 06:00 AM
http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?t=568

Faylin
25-11-2006, 08:52 AM
o.O

*specs Beatus shadow*

Spell=improved_pain Rank=10 Dmg=7148
Sequence Results: DPS=1114.2 DPM=59.2

If that's true something needs tweaking.

Kinshara
25-11-2006, 10:50 PM
o.O

*specs Beatus shadow*

Spell=improved_pain Rank=10 Dmg=7148
Sequence Results: DPS=1114.2 DPM=59.2

If that's true something needs tweaking.

Not the only thing that needs a little adjustment...

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=48697925&sid=1

that felguard is pretty evil atm, imo :(

Biscitt
26-11-2006, 12:05 AM
Mages will pwn. They pwn now. They'll always pwn. If you cannot adjust and keep pwning, thou art a crap mage. Go roll a pokemon.

Maur
26-11-2006, 02:45 AM
ffs my post gone somwhere...

Gruze
26-11-2006, 03:04 AM
Hunter will fucking rock. That is all.

Maur
26-11-2006, 03:28 AM
Hunter will fucking rock. That is all.

Gruze have right he tested that on some nasty Dwarftaurens -.- nerf plz kk

Vege
26-11-2006, 04:35 PM
Hunter will fucking rock. That is all.

Ysabella
29-11-2006, 11:38 PM
Mage TBC Changes FAQ (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=48955665&sid=1)

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 12:30 PM
Q: Do Dragon's Breath and Cone of Cold share a cooldown?
A: Yes. Dragon's Breath will put Cone of Cold on a 20-second cooldown. Cone of Cold will put Dragon's Breath on a 10-second cooldown.


this make me so rofl...

special bec ppl say "mage are fine"

AnteroVipune
30-11-2006, 12:34 PM
Yes coz you need more instants...

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 12:49 PM
Yes coz you need more instants...
ofc...

ok so lets make backstab share cd whit ss or so ? is it ok ? why not... it will be fun.

Faylin
30-11-2006, 12:56 PM
Yes coz you need more instants...

Although I can agree on the part mages do not really need more instants (from a balance PoV) I hope you agree you want a 41 talent point to actually give you something extra.

This is just a crappy replacement for CoC and therefor possibly the worst 41 talent point of all.

Hephaestos
30-11-2006, 12:56 PM
aye, we'd like backstab, MS and that old-tbc arcane damage dagger back plz.. Also frost/ice armour should have quadripple AC and should encase any attacker, be it magical/melee/ranged in a block of ice for 5 minutes. If, in those 5 minutes their HP reaches 0 (they arent immune ofc!) they shatter and will have to start rebuilding their characters from lvl 1.

there, all mage problems solved, now for all other classes.. hmm

Kinshara
30-11-2006, 01:06 PM
Yes coz you need more instants...

Although I can agree on the part mages do not really need more instants (from a balance PoV) I hope you agree you want a 41 talent point to actually give you something extra.

This is just a crappy replacement for CoC and therefor possibly the worst 41 talent point of all.

I think Elemental shammies might dispute that :)

DB is "nicer" than COC due to the disorient, but putting COC onto the same 20 sec CD with it seems excessive... triggering its normal CD might be better.

(Oh, and backstab does "share" a CD with SS. It's only the GCD though, so no problem there. A slightly more valid comparison would be putting gouge and kidney shot on the same CD, though neither of those deals much damage, and they aren't aoe.)

Faylin
30-11-2006, 01:19 PM
DB is "nicer" than COC due to the disorient

Yeh but it's worth (edit: err meant worse offcourse) cause:
- (unlike CoC) it does not get it's range improved by the appropiate talent,
- the area (cone) affected is much smaller
- it's cooldown is much higher,
- it's cooldown isn't reduceable by a talent,
- it isn't castable twice in a row by using ColdSnap

So, really, it's not worth 41 points. I'm not crying or anything, I really don't care much: I'm simply not going to take it. It just would have been nicer if I was tempted a bit more to take it. (Like I am now in choosing between IceBlock and Combustion)

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 01:29 PM
all 3 41 talents/spells are crap EOT

AnteroVipune
30-11-2006, 01:31 PM
Yes coz you need more instants...
ofc...

ok so lets make backstab share cd whit ss or so ? is it ok ? why not... it will be fun.

Coz you obviously use both at the same time. How about you think for a second what would happen if coc and dragons breath wouldnt be on same CD?

Im no mage, but I can already imagine following Sheep, Fireball/frostbolt, Fireblast, frostnova, coc, dragons breath.
Would leave your opponent disoriented and allows you to do what ever.
Not to mention both have some kinda CC part in them too...

Artia
30-11-2006, 01:31 PM
all 3 41 talents/spells are crap EOT

Isn't that what every class says about their talents? And you're still going to get one anyway :twisted:

AnteroVipune
30-11-2006, 01:31 PM
all 3 41 talents/spells are crap EOT

Join the club and stop whining.

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 01:37 PM
Yes coz you need more instants...
ofc...

ok so lets make backstab share cd whit ss or so ? is it ok ? why not... it will be fun.

Coz you obviously use both at the same time. How about you think for a second what would happen if coc and dragons breath wouldnt be on same CD?

Im no mage, but I can already imagine following Sheep, Fireball/frostbolt, Fireblast, frostnova, coc, dragons breath.
Would leave your opponent disoriented and allows you to do what ever.
Not to mention both have some kinda CC part in them too...

why not ? if rogues or warlcoks can do so combo (ofc whit they abis etc) why mage cant ? why all say its wrong then ? he ?

whining is part of mage life deal whit it.

AnteroVipune
30-11-2006, 01:40 PM
Im sorry you wont be a fucking Optimus Prime in TBC.
There's no way one could have decent conversation about this with you.
I'll just stop posting now.

Kinshara
30-11-2006, 01:42 PM
DB is "nicer" than COC due to the disorient

Yeh but it's worth cause:
- (unlike CoC) it does not get it's range improved by the appropiate talent,
- the area (cone) affected is much smaller
- it's cooldown is much higher,
- it's cooldown isn't reduceable by a talent,
- it isn't castable twice in a row by using ColdSnap

So, really, it's not worth 41 points. I'm not crying or anything, I really don't care much: I'm simply not going to take it. It just would have been nicer if I was tempted a bit more to take it. (Like I am now in choosing between IceBlock and Combustion)

Hence me putting nicer in quotes. I'd take iceblock myself as well.

Most of the 41 point talents (for all classes, not just mages) don't seem to be "must haves"; a few are great, but many of them... just don't seem to offer more overall power than a 21 pointer in one of the other trees.

Taurusos
30-11-2006, 01:46 PM
Yes coz you need more instants...
ofc...

ok so lets make backstab share cd whit ss or so ? is it ok ? why not... it will be fun.

Coz you obviously use both at the same time. How about you think for a second what would happen if coc and dragons breath wouldnt be on same CD?

Im no mage, but I can already imagine following Sheep, Fireball/frostbolt, Fireblast, frostnova, coc, dragons breath.
Would leave your opponent disoriented and allows you to do what ever.
Not to mention both have some kinda CC part in them too...

why not ? if rogues or warlcoks can do so combo (ofc whit they abis etc) why mage cant ? why all say its wrong then ? he ?

whining is part of mage life deal whit it.

Wait a sec, so you are saying if other classes are broken let yours be broken too? Wow, that really makes sense....

So you want to have melee type instans "in your face" type and be able to nuke from far away too?

Mages have enough instants already with FB, BW, CoC.

You dont need any combos. You got enough CC. Use that CC and stay the hell away from melee and nuke it down.

Instants shouldnt work as a finishing move for mages imo, it should be a last thing attack where you are trying to nova out and do some dmg.

You want to dps in someones face with imba instants in close range then go melee class.

/Tau

Faylin
30-11-2006, 02:05 PM
whining is part of mage life deal whit it.

Err, no whining is part of -your- "mage life". You're one (of many, just check the official forums) making the class have a bad name.

Jethrotull
30-11-2006, 02:25 PM
Well in strength DB and CoC are somewhat the same, they both have around the same DPM, 1 has a disorient effect, the other slows a lot (longer duration) and they both have a fair enough cooldown.

CoC is a spell you learn whereas DB is 41-point talent, and therein lies a big difference. A mage spending 41 points into fire should be able to cast it on a seperate cooldown from cone of cold imho.

Don't forget mages who get DB won't have iceblock and icebarrier and those skills are amazing against melee, full fire mages are much easier killed than full frost mages, so why not give us the dps-power of this 41-pointer?

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 02:30 PM
this too spells are FAR from good and FAR from any good DMG spells and taking that whot Beatus wrot about DB. its stupid and lame to share CD whit CoC...

and whot Jethrotull wrote :)

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 02:34 PM
whining is part of mage life deal whit it.

Err, no whining is part of -your- "mage life". You're one (of many, just check the official forums) making the class have a bad name.

whot is a bad name for you ? its a game. and ppl whine and will whine no mater whot u will do. some whine more some less. deal whit it. u will not change the world.

Faylin
30-11-2006, 02:51 PM
Mmm, maybe you have a different defenition of whining then I do, but here ya go:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whining

To complain or protest in a childish fashion

Tell me how you can see whining as a good thing? So you are absolutely serious about the fact that it's normal to complain in a childish fashion? Seriously, I think it would be advisable if you could try and see "the other side" of things before posting your complains again, I am sure it will make the discussion a bit more constructive.

Harr
30-11-2006, 04:12 PM
In 1 on 1 situation DB is awesome, its pretty much guaranteed to give enough time so mage can get fireball off without fear being interrupted thanks to the disorienting effect.

Artia
30-11-2006, 04:21 PM
and whot Jethrotull wrote :)

Yes, because I don't need to use an Idiot to English dictionary to actually understand half of what he's saying :evil:

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 05:13 PM
Mmm, maybe you have a different defenition of whining then I do, but here ya go:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whining

To complain or protest in a childish fashion

Tell me how you can see whining as a good thing? So you are absolutely serious about the fact that it's normal to complain in a childish fashion? Seriously, I think it would be advisable if you could try and see "the other side" of things before posting your complains again, I am sure it will make the discussion a bit more constructive.

anyway if u think i whine here u should see Asura whot he do. not here bec he cant :wink:
put his reputation on server on bad way :) but i have that in ass whot u all think. RLY.

i know whot i need to know ... im there where im.

if u think whining is only this whot u wrote here... i sugest to open more eyes

anyway whining is only part of puting "things" out one of way ... u can whine or write seriosly. but difrence is if u write it in good eng etc noone will notic or will creat anyway drama here on SSE on full peace topic even.

only place where me eng is pouint out is this forum. Never it was in OTD or is in Wrath.
That show whot kaind of ppl are here. so whot for to sit longer and write good post. i dont see any pouint of it.
u all worked out this look of Forum thats is Troling and drama of nothing always.

i dont need to learn eng better or even try to wrote for u as i do it for Wrath aplication. bec i dont want. not whore the ppl that are here. and i dont need eng in me life and work.

Kinshara
30-11-2006, 05:31 PM
Hmm, no Trup... while people do complain about your writing, the whining part of it is separate.

Just take a look on the official forums -- plenty of well worded posts, but clearly whining (usually calls for nerfs against certain classes, but also complaints about talents or feeling useless as well.)

While you have brought up some good points, and I'll agree that mages will have trouble picking out an "all-round" talent build, some of what you've written has just been annoying. The title alone implies a certain level of despair about the changes being made to the class, and some of your posts within haven't helped that.

All classes will have some problems picking out a good build; while some will have an easier time in pvp with a pve build, they'll still be at a disadvantage to someone with a pure pvp build for pvp, and vice-versa for pve. Everyone has some annoying changes being made to the class, and there's still loads of long-standing bugs out there. Some things will be fixed or changed later, some won't. I'd suggest getting over it, one way or another.

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 06:06 PM
whining is as way to say whot u think... one of ofc.

look at it.. do i whine i want soem sick power... ? or that i want some stupid things back liek trinkets ?

nope i just say it as i want things that i think are wrong.

i dont care of other classes buffs nerfs. thats they owne thing.

whot we care here is MAGES... and OFC i will life good whit all chenges like always

but i like to whine that they are "Wrong" and not need or stupid.

Mojah
30-11-2006, 06:47 PM
only place where me eng is pouint out is this forum. Never it was in OTD or is in Wrath.
That show whot kaind of ppl are here. so whot for to sit longer and write good post. i dont see any pouint of it.
u all worked out this look of Forum thats is Troling and drama of nothing always.

i dont need to learn eng better or even try to wrote for u as i do it for Wrath aplication. bec i dont want. not whore the ppl that are here. and i dont need eng in me life and work.
What or how you type is entirely up to you. However, you loose a great deal of credibility if you type your posts the way you do. They may contain a good deal of information, but I'm sure most people skip them, as they take way too long to decypher.

I have nothing against, as I only 'know' you via these forums, but you come off childish and immature, and that's only because of the way you write.

Kinshara
30-11-2006, 07:50 PM
whining is as way to say whot u think... one of ofc.

look at it.. do i whine i want soem sick power... ? or that i want some stupid things back liek trinkets ?

nope i just say it as i want things that i think are wrong.

i dont care of other classes buffs nerfs. thats they owne thing.

whot we care here is MAGES... and OFC i will life good whit all chenges like always

but i like to whine that they are "Wrong" and not need or stupid.

Well...

Your opinions on the raiding power of the arcane tree relative to fire and frost were useful complaints; people started reporting their experiences of beta and digging up numbers from the official forums. While we haven't reached a conclusion yet(since none of us, afaik, has actually faced lvl 70 raid bosses to see how long the fights are, or what resists they have), it was a useful discussion I think.

When you said something like "mages get an 80% nerf", that's whining... doesn't really add to the discussion, and led to people insulting you rather than debating.

So I'd love to have you post more of the former (legitimate complaints for a certain part of the mage class) and less of the latter. You do make some good points at times.

Kinshara
30-11-2006, 08:10 PM
wrt. dragon breath, I had another thought(oh noes!)...

Would you consider speccing for it if it still had the disorient, but didn't do much damage(say 25% of COC's damage) and unlinked the CD from COC? That way you wouldn't get the burst damage that Blizzard is afraid of, but you would gain the utility of setting up for another spell -- while retaining COC as the burst damage/slow aoe.

Trupiaczacha
30-11-2006, 11:30 PM
wrt. dragon breath, I had another thought(oh noes!)...

Would you consider speccing for it if it still had the disorient, but didn't do much damage(say 25% of COC's damage) and unlinked the CD from COC? That way you wouldn't get the burst damage that Blizzard is afraid of, but you would gain the utility of setting up for another spell -- while retaining COC as the burst damage/slow aoe.

no mate how many dmg it will gief me etc. its still way behinde IB in "PvP world" ...

ib is simpel best talent/spell whot mages have for PvP imo. nothing can beat it.. i will say its on = whit "happy death coil" it can turn a battel 1on1 from lossing to wining. and DB cant rly.

Jethrotull
01-12-2006, 02:25 AM
wrt. dragon breath, I had another thought(oh noes!)...

Would you consider speccing for it if it still had the disorient, but didn't do much damage(say 25% of COC's damage) and unlinked the CD from COC? That way you wouldn't get the burst damage that Blizzard is afraid of, but you would gain the utility of setting up for another spell -- while retaining COC as the burst damage/slow aoe.

Cone of cold already has pretty low dmg, it's the shatter/imp CoC combo that makes it nice. If a mage gets DB his cone will not likely do more than 500 ish dmg, depending on gear, and most classes can deal with that. A 41-talent in the fire tree should above all be a dps adding spell, and they can take away the disorient for all I care, we're not rogues mind you ;)

So I guess my answer would be no ;) we already have CoC to control melee classes that get too close, I am not interested in the extra disorient, I'd rather see the extra burst dmg if I specc deep into the dps tree.

If the shared cd stays like this, at lvl70 I would be much more tempted to get PoM, to get those nice instant pyro's everyone hates so much ;) In terms of quick instant dmg a PoM mage is just as mean, with the imp counterspell and other (half)decent talents to go along with it.
Sure you'll say PoM is only once per 3 minutes, but 700mana every 20seconds is not a realistic option either. DB should be sheer dmg output to nuke down that rogue that snuck up on you, or finish those 3 mobs you were fighting with health running low. Taking away both the disorient and shared cd can do that, and you'll be happy more mages got DB instead of PoM (or shatter/iceblock), I'll guarantee you that already.

Nimbus
01-12-2006, 11:42 AM
The instant damage part of DB is not why the talent is even worth looking at. The disorient part is the only reason I am even considering trying it out. For me they could take away all of the damage and add some seconds of disorient.

If you look at the end-tree talents (for mage at least), none of them are really of the damage kind (maybe frost pet, but meh) and I am starting to think that the reason they aren't is that Blizzard want mages to have options in which tree to be the main damage tree.

Also reading the excellent post on stats of different builds I am really looking forward to trying out a heavy arcane build with some fire in it. When you look at the slow talent I don't think many people realise how powerful that is... endless leper gnoming ftw.

So changing my view on the outlook for mages from slightly negative to very positive and excited to try things.

And for god sakes, let trup discuss these things without whining about his language. You are all looking like the helpless whiners you claim to dislike and I wish you would have somewhat intereresting things to talk about in your own class forums so you didn't have to troll here without having anything to add to the discussion.

AnteroVipune
01-12-2006, 11:55 AM
NOU

Trupiaczacha
01-12-2006, 12:36 PM
hmmm

Nimbus...

ok i agre DB is not a dmg spell and it should not be i know atlast i think main reason for it is this disorient part. but as u may know spals baste on CoC style (for me at last) are moste buged spells in game...

i think and know many of u hade this CoC "thing" that target is in front u pres it and it dont hit it. same think will be whit DB. i think if it will be made as Blast wava for exampel a nowa of Fire that Disorient only... or make very low dmg. that will be batter i think.

Slow hmmm i was long thinking about this spel. i think it WILL be very powerful in PvE. but in PvP well thats another story tbh. u knwo it will be easy to dispel and this part RLY kill this spell.

water element.... well first of all playing whit pets is not me thing RLY :P i think that if blizzard will make this pet life longer not 45sec ... it maybe be good. but for exampel as 41 frost talent why not get range frost nova that will make littel more dmg lest say base 200-250. and that will be very good 41 talent spel.

for the arc builds .... well taking that for scorch u dont need many talents in fire an du can NICE brust it whit arc tree it can be very good DMG build whit sick mana regen etc.
then on other hand we have 21 frost (standart build) and rest in arc tree nice DMG build whit Sick IB.

things for a suport classe in PvP in TBC look good... but stilll we not one of the importen classe in PvP and bec of that prolly ppl whina about it.
things in PVE look great as always RLY (problem is "Builds" as always rly)

all in all personaly i dont like it. but when i look at T5 set look (i love it ! no more Si-Fi look but trully mage look) i want play for it :P no mater how crap i as a mage will be :P

Zorg
01-12-2006, 12:44 PM
Judging by comments on beta forums and judging by the talent setup 40/x/x will be a common builds. as you said heavy arcane look very intresting and will probably be what i specc for when i hit 70.

I smell heavy frost for leveling up thinking 10/0/41 from next week if rolling ignit8es dies as expected.

Asura
01-12-2006, 01:26 PM
anyway if u think i whine here u should see Asura whot he do.


Oy, Beatus is the enemy, not me!

Jokes aside, some minor comments on what I've read.

The problems I have with DB have been mentionned already. It's a cc measure, so damage isn't really important. However putting a 41 talent points cost on it... well, in the form it is right now, seems wrong. Yeah, I know, QQ L2P and more like that. And you really don't need to point out that disorient would work vs casters where coc would not and the fact that a disorient effect > slow effect even vs melee.

Sharing cds between CoC and DB just seems kinda silly. I know alternation of 'em could seem a problem for our opponents. But face it, mages will still have the lowest survavibility of all classes in TBC, especially those being that deep in fire, so they -should- have something back for it. Like it or not. Oh ye, and saying you'd only use one out of both if you could use both is kind of silly, knowing there's elemental specs really.

I don't see a real solution for the "problem", removing the shared cd and increasing cd time on either as a penalty would only make DB even less interesting. However anyone should realise throwing out an instant cast to get a new one, which granted is better, but costs 41 talent points for the "slight" (it's debatable I know) improvement proves food for numerous "whine topics".

The known whine that we have enough instant casts usually comes from classes without actual "casting time" on moves/spells/... and thus kind of comes across as even more funny. Good luck standing still casting for 3 seconds while melee gives you the kiss of death frankly. Note that someone that deep in the fire tree, doesn't have iceblock or PoM, so your life shouldn't be THAT miserable when facing these mages Antero.

About the other 41 pointers I can only say I'm probably underestimating the use of slow. It just seems somewhat silly to go that deep in arcane for it right now, I guess I'll have to see how good (or bad) it actually is. The elemental isn't bad, but in the only is there to how some extra damage and an extra shatter crit. It might be a useful thing if it weren't for the 45seconds every 3 minutes. Maybe it's me, but you seem quite gimped for the next 2 minutes. I can see the benefit for the arenas though.

Edit: Oh ye and I realise nobody's forcing me to go 41 into something, it just seems like a missed opportunity.

Toshiro
01-12-2006, 01:44 PM
I'm wondering if you mages think not sharing a cd would be too over powered? It does seem to me that there will of been issues with mages having another instant whether or not it has additional affects (forgetting that is a 41 point talent for the moment), and so something had to be done to deal with it.

If it didn't share the cooldown it would seem to become an essential part of any mage PvP build, so forcing mages to spec 41 point fire for the insane busrt damage it would bring. As it is now I would have to agree with Trupi, it dont really seem good enough for the bottom of a talent tree. But then I feel that about most of the talent trees of classes I have played at lvl 60 (except locks ofc, a whole different topic).

But all of this is still in testing, despite them releasing the talent trees on us next week, I can see changes being made to them for TBC, perhaps they are merely forcing us all to take part in the testing of them :)

Ysabella
01-12-2006, 01:49 PM
Sharing cooldown will NOT force all mages to spec 41pt fire for pvp. We're already forced to spec 20pts in frost to get Ice Block.

Hephaestos
01-12-2006, 01:53 PM
Slow is powerfull, but I severely doubt its usefullness in pve. Since most bosses melee the tank, slow is of no use (only slows moving, casting, ranged attacks).

If they'd add -50% attack speed aswell it might be good on bosses that enrage etc.

For pve its quite good with the only severe downside being that its disspellable in the blink of an eye. The problem is tho, that 41 arcane means leaving behind great frost or fire talents that have a thousandfold more use in a pvp situation (stun/root procs, an extra instant aoe with daze, coldsnapped iceblock etc. This kinda deters the use of slow.

Since fire is most commonly accepted as being the backbone of more or less any pvp build I'd put slow as 41pt talent, name it fiery embrace and make it encumber melee attack speed aswell. with the high cost/low duration it would fit in quite good imo. It provides more survivability since melee will hit slower, and can be outmanuvered for a small duration. but even without the additional melee slow it would still be great to use on just about anything but a lock with felhunter or a priest due to its disspellability.

Arcane just offers too little (imo) to be pvp worthy (other then the known 2/3 minute builds..)

Nimbus
01-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Playing with builds...

Would love to try how this one does in DPS/DPM for PvE and who of y00 I can pwn in PvP:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=Rf0Eb0fzhIzioxg0zbMZ0h

RARRRR!!!

PS that aerial bombing vid really inspired me :-)

Trupiaczacha
01-12-2006, 04:57 PM
i think i will try something like this when i hit 70 lvl and fire will eb good for pvp and pve

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=kf0E00fzxIziZxg0zbcZ0h

Hephaestos
01-12-2006, 05:05 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=Rf0E00fzxIziZZVA0coc0o

the frost variation doesnt look bad at all either =)
just need 1 mage in the crew with winter's chill

Ysabella
01-12-2006, 05:27 PM
Will the number of debuff-slots increase in the next patch, or is that kept on hold till the expantion?

Unless you have plenty of debuff-slots, it's a good idea to have at least two mages with winter's chill. In the raids where I'm the only mage with the chill, the debuff keeps getting knocked off :o((

Kinshara
01-12-2006, 05:35 PM
Will the number of debuff-slots increase in the next patch, or is that kept on hold till the expantion?

Unless you have plenty of debuff-slots, it's a good idea to have at least two mages with winter's chill. In the raids where I'm the only mage with the chill, the debuff keeps getting knocked off :o((

I *think* it's going up to 40 in the next patch, not sure. Given that all the other odd changes seem to be going in (ignite nerf, armor formula changes, low-rank heal nerf, warrior rage changes, hunter agi change, etc...) I'd say providing more debuff slots should come in at the same time.

'Course, you'll probably have fussy locks trying to use up 5 debuff slots each :)

Flawless
01-12-2006, 06:36 PM
Will the number of debuff-slots increase in the next patch, or is that kept on hold till the expantion?

Unless you have plenty of debuff-slots, it's a good idea to have at least two mages with winter's chill. In the raids where I'm the only mage with the chill, the debuff keeps getting knocked off :o((http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955989&sid=1

Ysabella
04-12-2006, 05:33 PM
Thanks!

Mitox
05-12-2006, 11:55 PM
I lol'd when I saw the topic title, mages will still be the best ranged dmg dealer imo.
Yes we get some nerfs but we also get some awesome buffs (don't forget the new spells we get).
We just need to change our play style like every class and everything will be fine.

I look forward to all the new changes.

[Edit]
I just made this talent build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=RZEgzzf0IoeoZchGho0xo

I'm not completely sure if it is as good as i think because i don't have a mage on the test servers, but this build looks pretty good to me in theory for PvP and PvE.

I wonder how the other mages here think about this talent build.

Trupiaczacha
06-12-2006, 02:42 AM
toic is good :P see how mnay replise and even good discusian comes out of it :) so its good.

to you build... hmmm ... hard to say but i will for sure not use it for pvp or pve :P dunno for whot it is good ...

first i will say :P chose a spel u want play whit :P or Fireball or scorch...

Playing with fire is big crap :) mages alrady have problems whit survability agians casters :) and u gief them 3% more dmg they made on you.. i will say wrong

as i see u dont have ANY mana regen talents and they will be need for PvE ... no mater how Dungeons will be u need some of them as a mage.

imo as it is now the best way to play Mage in PvP is frost sadly :( Fire just dont have anything to offer atm :(

for PvE i will take some arc for sure ... u just will be more efective for it :)

anyway i think elemental mages sadly die agian.

Jethrotull
06-12-2006, 10:58 AM
This is my new build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=RZEgGzf0coeRt0b

hmmmmm........damage.


Screw uptime, screw survivabillity. Damage ftw. And if I run out of mana during raids I'll grab some arcane talents later, for now it's time to burn stuff and see if the manapool holds.

[edit]
This is a PvE/Raid build btw, PvE being farming :)

Kinshara
06-12-2006, 11:09 AM
Playing with fire is big crap :) mages alrady have problems whit survability agians casters :) and u gief them 3% more dmg they made on you.. i will say wrong

Yeah, I'd say playing with fire is more of a straight pve talent... just hope the new raid dungeons don't deal much magic damage to you :)

I don't think I'd consider it for a pvp or mixed build.

Trupiaczacha
06-12-2006, 11:23 AM
This is my new build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=RZEgGzf0coeRt0b

hmmmmm........damage.


Screw uptime, screw survivabillity. Damage ftw. And if I run out of mana during raids I'll grab some arcane talents later, for now it's time to burn stuff and see if the manapool holds.

[edit]
This is a PvE/Raid build btw, PvE being farming :)

agian i dont see main spell of you :P Fireball or scorch ? :wink:

and well TBH for Fireball spaming u _need_ MoE or arc medi...

interesting build but TBH i dont see how it will be good in pve :wink:

Flawless
06-12-2006, 11:45 AM
Tull's a nuker! :(

Jethrotull
06-12-2006, 12:00 PM
This is my new build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=RZEgGzf0coeRt0b

hmmmmm........damage.


Screw uptime, screw survivabillity. Damage ftw. And if I run out of mana during raids I'll grab some arcane talents later, for now it's time to burn stuff and see if the manapool holds.

[edit]
This is a PvE/Raid build btw, PvE being farming :)

agian i dont see main spell of you :P Fireball or scorch ? :wink:

and well TBH for Fireball spaming u _need_ MoE or arc medi...

interesting build but TBH i dont see how it will be good in pve :wink:

Tull's a nuker! :(

Main spell in raids will be scorch, after I get 5 debuff stacks I start using scorch, Fireball, Fireblast (sort of a cd rotation thing). When a boss gets to 30% ish I will activate combustion and Mind Quickening Gem and start doing fireballs, decent 2k hits and 3k crits(+ignite). After that it's scorching+fireblasts till the end, but if my mana lets me I do more fireballs.

It's very good dps with a good critrate. It rocks on raidbosses but I have to admit I'm kinda weak in PvP, warriors and rogues are actually killing me now, which is close to impossible with a full frost specc. I'll have to see how DB is going to work for me, can't say I tried it that much on the PTR, but I will now.

And mana, well, Let's just say I'm not too proud to use 2 manastones and evocation. With JoWisdom up all the time I never really experienced manaproblems so far. We'll see ;)

When a boss is dead, I'm ideally oom. Every point of mana I still have could have been spent on more +dmg imho.

Faylin
06-12-2006, 12:05 PM
If you are aiming for a high critrate I do think however the points in MoE are worth it :)

Ysabella
06-12-2006, 01:01 PM
Is full fire (0/48/3) possible as a horde mage for pve? I'm only worried about threat and manaregen.

Bunneh
06-12-2006, 01:08 PM
*is excited*

Me little Mage is looking forward to level 50 :)

Trupiaczacha
06-12-2006, 01:14 PM
Is full fire (0/48/3) possible as a horde mage for pve? I'm only worried about threat and manaregen.

is not :) sadly :) not now... when we get loladins it will be ok...

problem in his Fire build is he will be oom to time boss will be 30% HP :) but he dont know it yet prolly :P

yes was LONG fire in (mc/bwl) aq40 or naxx etc... mana is the biges problem of fire build in horde. u simply need some kinde of regen talents.

this build will have no good use in PvE...
whit this -
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=kf0VZxgG0bcc0eRx

i will outDMG you on all boses imo. and its way better for raiding if u like fire

Mitox
06-12-2006, 01:15 PM
first i will say :P chose a spel u want play whit :P or Fireball or scorch...
Scorch and fireballs are both important spells for a fire build.
Scorch is a fast cast with a high chance on crits and stuns, thats nice for pvp, scorch is usefull in pve for the 15% more dmg buff.
When the 15% more dmg buff is up you start to spam fireballs.
This is basic stuff for a fire mage, you should know that. :p


Playing with fire is big crap :) mages alrady have problems whit survability agians casters :) and u gief them 3% more dmg they made on you.. i will say wrong
Yeah i'm not really sure if i keep that tallent, i mainly took it for the 3% more fire dmg but the 3% more dmg taken is crappy.
Playing with fire is not crap btw, its different, and as you can see i still have ice block for the survivability.


as i see u dont have ANY mana regen talents and they will be need for PvE ... no mater how Dungeons will be u need some of them as a mage.
We still have enough options to keep our mana up, evocation, mana gems, mana potions, and mage armor, i never really had mana problems as a elemental mage tbh.


imo as it is now the best way to play Mage in PvP is frost sadly :( Fire just dont have anything to offer atm :(

for PvE i will take some arc for sure ... u just will be more efective for it :)

anyway i think elemental mages sadly die agian.
Nah, i don't see much problems for elemental mages, elemental is just not as easy as a pom, ap, pyro build but it offers the high dps and a extra instant cast from the fire tree and some survivability and shatter from the frost tree, elemental is a good option if you ask me.

Trupiaczacha
06-12-2006, 01:29 PM
Mitox

u dont need have 5 mages to spam scorch debuff... for pve u can have 1-2. for pvp its crap.

u prolly play alaince mage and have no idea how imba loladins blesing are for mana regen. i use all of this things all time. but for Fire build i can constance nuke for 98sec (whit evo+gems) so show me boss u kill it in 98 sec ?

Pom = crap, AP = crap, Pyro = PvP

elemental is not high DPS build sorry to say :) its build baste on instance spells and crits.
and mostly PvP aimed.

calhoun
06-12-2006, 01:52 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=RbhE00fzLIzbZZVi0c0b

+150% damage on crits
+9% damage

So many ways to spec now but cant find a good arc fire build :(


Trupiaczacha language :D
:( http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=RbhE00fzLIzbZZVi0c0b :-x:P :P
:-x
+150% damage on:P crits :-x
+9% :P damage :-x

So 8) many ways :o to :lol: spec now cant :p but find a :o good :) arc fire :-x build :(

Mitox
06-12-2006, 01:53 PM
@Trupiaczacha

True, but some of those 5 mages will have a frost tree and don't care about the scorch debuff, and if every fire mage expect other fire mages to scorch it up nobody will do it.

Yes i play alliance and i love the pala blessings, and the good thing for you is that horde will also get pala's soon, so you can also nuke from begin to end.

There are beter dps builds on single targets then elemental builds, but most of those dps builds will gimp our AoE options, and AoE can be a big part of our total dmg.

Jethrotull
06-12-2006, 01:55 PM
With the threatreduction nerf I will most likely not be able to do the dps I'm used to doing anyway, so it could very well be I have to stick to scorch and still get close to hitting the aggro ceiling. A few raids will have to show what's wisdom I suppose. It's not like I can't respecc if I don't like it. For now I want to see how (what I think is) the best dps talentset will work out. I start with dps, if it's not working I can slowly move towards manaregen or something, but prefer not to.

I already know I won't run out of mana with scorching, I just want to see how much Fireballs I can add mana/threat-wise. Time will tell :) I'm 2/41/8 atm so it's not like I'm completely new to full-fire builds.

Taurusos
06-12-2006, 02:04 PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=RbhE00fzLIzbZZVi0c0b

+150% damage on crits
+9% damage

So many ways to spec now but cant find a good arc fire build :(


Trupiaczacha language :D
:( http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=RbhE00fzLIzbZZVi0c0b :-x:P :P
:-x
+150% damage on:P crits :-x
+9% :P damage :-x

So 8) many ways :o to :lol: spec now cant :p but find a :o good :) arc fire :-x build :(

Dude xD

:D :lol:

Also: today we got grinding to do you and meh!

/Tau

Nimbus
06-12-2006, 05:16 PM
Can't decide what i want to try first tonight. This:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=RixE00czxIuiZZ0h

or this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=kf0Eb0czxIziZxT

or this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=of0Eb0czxIzbZxg0zZ0h

:)

Faylin
07-12-2006, 09:23 AM
Have to take something back from my former statement. Dragon's Breath -is- nice. Haven't tried in PvP yet but when fighting in Tyr's it made me finish em off without them touching me if I used:
Pyro -> Fireball -> Dragon's Breath -> Fireball

Greatest thing was when I had an unexpected respawn behind me:. DB the one I was on, sheep the add and continue killing the first one.

Blazing Speed is also very cool when it procs... which isn't that often in Tyr's... looking forward to see that in action in PvP.

Ysabella
07-12-2006, 09:46 AM
I tried 0/0/51, but have still not managed to summon the water-elemental. Or, I summon, get a big error-message, no pet bar - and only the pet attack-keybinding works. Hard to say if it actually hit anyone - and how much damage it does - since I've had 8-10 seconds lag on everything (including instants) ever since the patch.

Does anyone have similar problems? Or better: A way to fix them?

Harr
07-12-2006, 10:29 AM
Disable Blizzard Downloader?... I'm pretty sure something is eating your bandwidth (on the lag issue). No idea what could be wrong with the pet bar...

Biscitt
07-12-2006, 05:38 PM
Tried a 0/48/3 build. I love mages even more now. People crying over the ignite nerf needs to realize it was an insanely overpowered bug that they just didnt bother to fix. Overall mage dps in raids should be the same, but you're no longer dependent on a high amount of mages to do good damage.

Also, Blazing Speed is worth it just to see the confused look on rogues that is stunlocking you in PvP, and then ZOOM! you're gone, firing up a fireball :P

Mitox
07-12-2006, 10:13 PM
I also play with 0/48/3 atm:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=kZEgMzf0cReRt0h

I really like this build, its much better than my old frost build.
I did a 2545 hit yesterday in battlegrounds on a warrior. :O

DB works also fine, i use it against casters to interupt spells, for melee i use CoC to slow them, i don't have any problems with it that they share cooldowns.
Blazing speed does not proc very often but when it does its ownage. :p