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Ansharok
16-10-2006, 03:30 PM
I have been PvP'ing some since my return and I've made some observations that I find interesting. I would like to share them with you and get some feedback on it.

My experience in PvP the last few weeks have been roughly this:
1. Duel-like situations, 1'ish v 1'ish I usually have a good chance. In fact, I feel I win most. (have some problems against certain classes. get owned by mages if trinket is on cooldown)
2. Group vs Group (3-5 in a group) Warriors are good. If a healer is present, very good.
3. Mass PvP (typical AV and some situations in the other BG's) I'm useless.

There are 3 Melee classes in the game. Warriors, Rogues and Paladins. (Shamans also, but I'll get back to that later). As everyone knows melee classes have to be close to their enemies. This creates a problem in mass pvp. And that problem is Zero survivability. In most mass pvp situations players will be standing in groups. there will always be a bunch of stragglers going around outside the group, but basically large groups are what counts. (think AV). A warrior has a problem in this situation. Since we are dependent on being able to hit our enemies we have to move into this group of enemies and my experience is that doing so = Death.

"Noob! Fear bomb!" Well, yes. Fear bombing is a good way of splitting such a group. Though most classes will break fear or resist it so I will get my sorry green ass nuked either way. Also, charging into a group I will usually be stunned before I can get off an Intimidating shout. And if I'm stunned in such a situation I will likely be dead before the stun is over, even with a healer in my back. Which leads me to my problem. I dont have survivability. There are so many crowd control moves in the game that I will have to eat, that in mass PvP I wont get anything done. And I dont have any resistance to it. Even with Orcish 25% stun resist I will be stunned (and rooted and slowed and stunned) and die.

There is a very obvious answer. Don't. Don't charge into a large group of enemies. Yes, well that would be ideal wouldnt it. But the problem is that in these BG's (especially AV) players almost always stick in large groups. As warriors are dependent on melee range for doing melee damage (doh :p ) we pretty much have to face these groups. But when we do there are so many skills and abilities that deprive us of control of our character, that we (or at least I) usually die without getting anything much done.

Casters dont have this problem (hunter is a caster for all intents and purposes) as they can stand back and do their thing, being protected by being in a large group. Rogues share part of the problem I'm describing, but not as much since they can choose their battles and avoid trouble to a certain degree. Shamans are (or can be) both support providing heals and buffs etc or casters, in addition they can melee, but they are not limited to melee only. Paladins also dont have to worry as much since they have shields, heals and blessings that will remove or at least counter many of the ill effects resulting from mass pvp engagement, they have far more survivability than warriors. Additionally, Paladins can also function as a support class. Warriors dont have that option. We have to engage and we dont have any counters that will allow us to survive the initial onslaught. When we engage we take CC and damage at such a rate that we are dead within seconds. My experiences in mass pvp is often Charge - Stunned - Dead - Res

So what option do we have? Stand back in your own caster pile and take care of those who come to you? Function as a body guard only? Is that a warriors only role in large scale pvp?


Now I dont want to hear "L2P" or "get some gear noob", my gear is decent, not über, just decent. But I should be able to play decently in pvp with decent gear. I am sharing some thoughts and if you have any ideas, tips, comments or suggestions that deal with these or Warriors in PvP in general feel free to share them. Critiscize my conclusions as much as you want, but back them up with some reasons and preferably solutions. If you just wanna be an ass and throw shit then you're wasting your time cause I dont give a flying fuck what you think if you cant be civilized enough to express it properly. I'm trying to get a discussion started that will enlighten a facet of this class and its function, if you want to answer, please be constructive.

Fintan
16-10-2006, 04:55 PM
Are you basing this soley on AV? As far as I'm concerned, a warrior who can make good use of intimidating shout has done his bit in AV, and the 3 minutes inbetween you generally have to make a nuisance of yourself, and push players back. Warriors are one of the main reasons you make ground, casters move back when warriors charge, especially if you mount up and dismount behind them. Then the rest of the dress wearing pansy boys can move up and carry on blazing away.

Occasionally a healer or two will target you for a period of time, and keep you alive. There is nothing scarier than a warrior with constant 100% rage who refuses to die. Quite often you will see warriors with horrendous amounts of HK's and KB's, these are usually the MT's of the operation, and will be geared in purples and carry a huge wacking stick.

If you get bored of constantly spending your time at the GY, go for a 5 minute mooch around, find some fun people to 1v1 against, and then go back and help your team. I always used to search for an orc warlock with a crazy name like "Agranasomething." He was a skilled lock and it made for some awesome 1v1 encounters. After all, us warriors deserve a break every now and again as well. :)

If you're talking about AB or WSG I'm afraid I don't see your point.

Edit: About the survivability thing, in AV, yes, you will spend a good deal of time dead. Stamina heavy gear is always favourable in PvP, look at the PvP kits for example. I'm assuming you're a 31/20 warrior, in which case you simply have to do as much damage as you can before you die, and with moves like Whirlwind and Sweeping Strikes with a heavy two-hander, you'll get plenty of damage in. :)

Ansharok
16-10-2006, 09:34 PM
yes. AV is the main issue. its just one big exercise in frustration. I'm building more rage than my warrior. is that supposed to be the sole purpose of our class in AV? suicide fear bombing once every three minutes? wow, we're overpowered. blizz please nerf.

frankly, I feel lucky if I ever get off a sweeping strikes + whirlwind. usually I'll be stunned and killed before I get that far.

yes. a warrior with 100 rage that just wont die is a fearful sight. it is also in my experience rarer than a pink panda.

Karadros
17-10-2006, 12:11 AM
I agree with Ansharok.

Kinshara
17-10-2006, 01:34 AM
Yeah, most of the warriors I see in AV get instagibbed repeatedly. The one recent exception to this was a tauren warrior with loads of stam gear and thunderfury -- with about 5 healers backing him up; as soon as you killed one healer another took up the cause, and the happy tauren just tore through the alliance.

Seems you have to have epic/legendary gear to get the support you deserve in that environment :\

Karadros
17-10-2006, 02:30 AM
<--------------<<<

Umm, no. I just get targeted first. They see my mace from their base ffs.

Ansharok
17-10-2006, 11:14 AM
<--------------<<<

Umm, no. I just get targeted first. They see my mace from their base ffs.

I also seem to get targeting priority. what I have I done to make them hate me so?

and karadros. I have found the solution for you!

http://thottbot.com/?i=800

Chonar
17-10-2006, 11:18 AM
In Alterac, first thing I do is 'recruit' a friendly priest and druid/paladin, both keeping me up while I protect their asses in turn against rogues.

And then, yes. I do charge head-first into large groups of casters charging up their firebolts.

Warriors are meant to lead. Get a healer and take the heat. If you as a warrior dont lead, noone will.

Ansharok
17-10-2006, 11:25 AM
hehe. I'd love to, and I try, but last AV I was in had a total of 2 priests and 1 druid on horde side. and they all said "Sod off" (or variations upon the theme). most priests dont want to heal in AV it seems. and certainly not the warrior that is in the middle of the fray, cause he's sure to be dead soon any second now anyway. I dont have your überepix which means they often wont have time to heal me before I'm dead. whoop. tee. do. and in case you havent noticed horde doesnt have paladins and shammies cant compare for healing support or other buffing (no BoF). guess I need to farm a few months and buyout the entire worlds supply of Free Action Pots...

being the gear-fetishist class sucks sometimes.

sara
17-10-2006, 12:39 PM
Yeah, most of the warriors I see in AV get instagibbed repeatedly. The one recent exception to this was a tauren warrior with loads of stam gear and thunderfury -- with about 5 healers backing him up; as soon as you killed one healer another took up the cause, and the happy tauren just tore through the alliance.

Seems you have to have epic/legendary gear to get the support you deserve in that environment :\

It's not a question of 'deserve', if you aren't wearing enough +sta gear to take the spike damage then you are useless as a lightning rod. I don't bother trying to heal someone who dies before I can get a flash heal off. You will do a lot of damage if you can survive the massive incoming dps even if you have to slightly gimp your 'dps' stats, but that requires a massive hp pool

Jarelan
17-10-2006, 01:04 PM
I try to play AV conservatively, but the blood rush comes and I charge headlong into a pack of 10, get stunned and die...then I hover at the back for a bit looking for stray targets like cheetahs hunting :)

Occasionally I get healed, but more often than not its a case of spawn, charge, die, respawn, charge, die...

Whilst grinding rep I did hang back though and picked up the horde warriors doing what I normally do :)

Karadros
17-10-2006, 02:14 PM
Warriors are meant to lead. Get a healer and take the heat. If you as a warrior dont lead, noone will.

They never listen.
The amount of times we're at the bridge and the stupid fuckers dismount IN FRONT of them, stand there and die, is bewildering.

Kinshara
17-10-2006, 06:53 PM
It's not a question of 'deserve', if you aren't wearing enough +sta gear to take the spike damage then you are useless as a lightning rod. I don't bother trying to heal someone who dies before I can get a flash heal off. You will do a lot of damage if you can survive the massive incoming dps even if you have to slightly gimp your 'dps' stats, but that requires a massive hp pool

Yeah, that's true; but when I'm healing I don't always have time to check how much HP they have before I start healing. If they die before I finish casting, well, I'll find somebody with a bit more survivability to concentrate on.

Kinshara
17-10-2006, 06:57 PM
Warriors are meant to lead. Get a healer and take the heat. If you as a warrior dont lead, noone will.

I've seen more mages than warriors leading the push in AV since XBG. AE a bunch of times, then iceblock -- for some reason a lot of meleers just don't seem to understand they can't hurt you for a while, and the other damage incoming eventually kills them.

Chonar
17-10-2006, 07:11 PM
Warriors are meant to lead. Get a healer and take the heat. If you as a warrior dont lead, noone will.

I've seen more mages than warriors leading the push in AV since XBG. AE a bunch of times, then iceblock -- for some reason a lot of meleers just don't seem to understand they can't hurt you for a while, and the other damage incoming eventually kills them.

Meh, the "new" AV is a disgusting zerg anyway, no tactics involved at all.

Syeknom
17-10-2006, 07:31 PM
Meh, the "new" AV is a disgusting zerg anyway, no tactics involved at all.

It's utterly foul beyond belief.

Tsarina
17-10-2006, 07:41 PM
As a warrior, I get plenty of heals in AV. Not only from people from Shadowsong, but total strangers. I think the characteristic HWL outfit helps a bit. Also always being in the front line in the middle of a bunch of alliance hitting on you. Tanking and holding aggro in PvP works just fine.

Karadros: I haven't seen you in AV, but if you're a chicken like at the bomb-bats in ZG, I wouldn't heal you either. Healers tend to like having warriors in front taking the heat. Not running away whining about repair bills.

Iyachtu
18-10-2006, 04:45 AM
lol, whining about repairs.. in zg...classic..
Try spending a couple of hours 'dancing' at heigan :/

Ayways, i havnt really done any AV i find the place so utterly retarded i refuse to set my foot in it. As for survivabillty in Wsg/ab its all good , unless ofc, you find yourself facing yet another horde pug with 13/15 casters hugging the farm.
When this happens i tend to just hang back with the ranged team and pick off any stray rogues who decide to try their luck.

Jarelan
18-10-2006, 09:03 AM
Meh, the "new" AV is a disgusting zerg anyway, no tactics involved at all.

It's utterly foul beyond belief.

You still get the odd classic, I had a 2 hour AV over the weekend. Racked up 2000 rep in it :)

AnteroVipune
18-10-2006, 09:19 AM
I did some AV last night with me warrior.
Was great fun.

Limbo
18-10-2006, 09:20 AM
Warriors are meant to lead. Get a healer and take the heat. If you as a warrior dont lead, noone will.

I've seen more mages than warriors leading the push in AV since XBG. AE a bunch of times, then iceblock -- for some reason a lot of meleers just don't seem to understand they can't hurt you for a while, and the other damage incoming eventually kills them.

I find myself doing that more and more on mage...but back on topic I love as a mage to sit at back picking the easy HK/KB's from zerging lone warriors!

A few times I've seen some really well organised front lines but these are very few and far between and as Chonar says AV is horrid now anyway!

Chonar
18-10-2006, 09:45 AM
I did some AV last night with me warrior.
Was great fun.

Just 'cause you like being annoying.

Ilks
20-10-2006, 01:51 PM
I am 13/0/38 prot spec, and tend to spend most of my AV time in my prot gear (but with my 2h equipped). OK this sounds gimp, but consider a crowd of horde, I charge in, they all go for me (usually) and this gives my comrades time to push an advance. I always aim for a heal class or a mage, as keeping them busy tips the balance in our favour. I see my role not as a dps machine, but a distraction and nuisance that allows everyone else to get the kills.

I tend to survive long enough for us to get an advantage, and as long as we win, I am happy. I spend a lot of time rezzing, but thats life :)

Moriartus
01-11-2006, 12:35 PM
AV is crap for warriors. It's unorganised so you never get healed, you end up inevitably being the first into the fray somehow, you kill like maybe 1 soft target then get ripped apart by ranged classes. I usually stay on base defense and pulp rogues who try to take the towers. In premades warriors = rape because you usually have a good healer keeping you up so you can just tear through the alliance. Same in world pvp, if you're in a raid on southshore or somewhere you usually get a good healer. AV is just a really crap place.

I don't like duelling much either. I always end up duelling some mage who bubbles, buffs and then drinks before accepting the duel. Then when I tell them it's lame to do that because I can't do it they say "LOL WARRIORS SHOULDN'T NEED TO DO THAT". Or hunters who put a freezing trap down before accepting and stand on it all the time. Warriors aren't so strong as a duelling class because of the lack of preparatory things. But however in 1v1 pvp or world pvp I usually win because the opponent can't do loads of crap before deciding they want to fight me. Plus I get jumpy in duels and press all the wrong buttons because I overthink the situation.

Chonar
01-11-2006, 02:15 PM
Release your rage!

Stim
12-11-2006, 05:15 PM
*rant mode
onHorde AV is horrible: A mob of undergeared noobs (as meself) creeps on upcoming vawes of human palas and NE hunters x_X
*rant mode off
As for warrs I found it quite suitable to pretend hunters :D i.e. standing crowded shooting ranged, soacking damage in def stance and killing pets waiting for a chanse to fear bomb, PH, DS, TC and all that sort of things... If (very rare case) I receive heals then fun begins: MS charges, pummels, hamstrings and of course executes! But to summarise all my exp - warrior are doomed class in AV... I always see GM/HWs with Legendary stuff torn to bit no matter what support is, and my heart aches as I tip my sword in their flesh, while some rogues and hunters avoid imminent death under my nose. =((

Dinmomz
12-11-2006, 06:24 PM
When i get bored of dying i usually slap on ma tanking gear and a shield. Tend to get ALOT more heals that way (could be my huge sword tho).
Then run around in their zerg with Force Reactive disk (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=39944) and slap ppl. Usually a healer or 2 picks up and you can pretty much tank a big portion of the enemys zerg :D

Onkelswe
12-11-2006, 08:57 PM
Warrior in AV is teh suck.. thats why i only do AV as warlock nowadays.

Solkaner
12-11-2006, 10:01 PM
Or leech rep.