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Respetite1
13-10-2006, 04:51 AM
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=54015655&sid=1



Crusader strike is back.

Rejoice! drink wine and be happy!

Senister
13-10-2006, 05:48 AM
Phew phew

Kinshara
13-10-2006, 07:31 AM
wewt. gonna be a lot of happy ret paladins today.

*notes reckoning has changed again. 10% chance now, but on "any damaging attack". more tanking oriented I guess, and possibly works better after the new resilience stat*

Slashy
13-10-2006, 07:42 AM
wewt. gonna be a lot of happy ret paladins today.

*notes reckoning has changed again. 10% chance now, but on "any damaging attack". more tanking oriented I guess, and possibly works better after the new resilience stat*

gna be some unhappy other pvpers =< only the palas that get in preformed heal and "dps".. the rest just say "lol stfu noob im retn00b spec" *pew pew* "lol dya see that? this lvl 1 rat must have about 10k hp.. i hit it with all i had and its hp didnt move lol" <-- /nod

just gief moar haels plx kai

Taurusos
13-10-2006, 09:37 AM
Blizzard idiots sons of .......

You healadins get this...where is my heal spell?

Fuck that tbh.

*Looks forward to punishing paladins in TBC come raidtimes and making sure they dont even get to touch a 2h mace after FERALS got them too.*

Pathetic.

/Tau

Faylin
13-10-2006, 09:38 AM
Blizzard idiots sons of .......

You healadins get this...where is my heal spell?

Fuck that tbh.

*Looks forward to punishing paladins in TBC come raidtimes and making sure they dont even get to touch a 2h mace after FERALS got them too.*

Pathetic.

/Tau

idiot.

Flawless
13-10-2006, 09:40 AM
Blizzard idiots sons of .......

You healadins get this...where is my heal spell?

Fuck that tbh.

*Looks forward to punishing paladins in TBC come raidtimes and making sure they dont even get to touch a 2h mace after FERALS got them too.*

Pathetic.

/Taupalas are going to be lining up for OTD :P

not all palas are PEW PEW PEW tbh... but most will for leveling me thinks.

Fintan
13-10-2006, 09:40 AM
wewt. gonna be a lot of happy ret paladins today.

*notes reckoning has changed again. 10% chance now, but on "any damaging attack". more tanking oriented I guess, and possibly works better after the new resilience stat*

gna be some unhappy other pvpers =< only the palas that get in preformed heal and "dps".. the rest just say "lol stfu noob im retn00b spec" *pew pew* "lol dya see that? this lvl 1 rat must have about 10k hp.. i hit it with all i had and its hp didnt move lol" <-- /nod

just gief moar haels plx kai

Like anything, it depends on the player. When Blizzard increased the diminishing returns on HK's, the decent PvP teams still played to win, they didn't spend 20 minutes running around WSG looking for hordies to gank. In the same way a decent retri-Paladin will incorporate this into his normal game, an instant-powerful attack to lay some smackdown in flag-room defense perhaps. Or maybe to shake off that annoying heal-disrupting rogue? I've never properly played a paladin to know exactly how they'd find it useful, but I have little doubt they would.

Taurusos
13-10-2006, 09:41 AM
Blizzard idiots sons of .......

You healadins get this...where is my heal spell?

Fuck that tbh.

*Looks forward to punishing paladins in TBC come raidtimes and making sure they dont even get to touch a 2h mace after FERALS got them too.*

Pathetic.

/Tau

idiot.

You are not allowed to sign this petition with your surname my dear.

/Tau

Faylin
13-10-2006, 09:49 AM
For all you imba-yellers...

First of all it is a 41 talent-point in the damage tree. You might kinda expect there to be something that properly increases you damage wouldn't you?

Second... ALL classes could so far spec and do decent damage. Ever tried killing anything with a paladin, even with proper gear. It was about time they could at dish out -some- damage.

Bleetman
13-10-2006, 10:12 AM
Contrary to popular belief, paladins can do a fair wack of damage already if they know what they're doing.

Kinshara
13-10-2006, 10:24 AM
Contrary to popular belief, paladins can do a fair wack of damage already if they know what they're doing.

And have the gear to back it up. I spose that goes in with knowing what they're doing though...

Still, ret paladins deserved something nice for a 41pt talent imho. They won't match a straight dps class for output, but they will be able to dish out a fair amount and throw heals when needed.

Kenny
13-10-2006, 10:44 AM
FUCK. YES.

Firesoul
13-10-2006, 11:01 AM
Contrary to popular belief, paladins can do a fair wack of damage already if they know what they're doing.

Wot he said.

Firesoul
13-10-2006, 11:05 AM
In the same way a decent retri-Paladin will incorporate this into his normal game,

Decent retri-Pallies? Shadowsong? Mutually exclusive terms?

Okay, that's a bit harsh but I don't know many decent retri-Pallies. Could probably name them all on one hand.

Fintan
13-10-2006, 11:07 AM
You may be suprised to know, all paladins are able to use this talent, not just the ones on Shadowsong.

Firesoul
13-10-2006, 11:14 AM
I believe you misunderstood me.

Ah well.

MikoWolf
13-10-2006, 12:11 PM
rhaego is one paladin who would probably be the best one to use it =P

but i cant say really much on that skill since i wasnt in the beta and neither when the game released so i must have missed it... looking forward to see it in work =)

Amber
13-10-2006, 01:48 PM
Contrary to popular belief, paladins can do a fair wack of damage already if they know what they're doing.

Indeedy.

Oh yeah! Crusader Strike, happy day!! :D

Bleetman
13-10-2006, 03:41 PM
I also like how it refreshes all judgments on the target, so you only need one paladin wacking away with that to keep light/wisdom/crusader/whatever else rather than three or more.

Kinshara
13-10-2006, 05:01 PM
I also like how it refreshes all judgments on the target, so you only need one paladin wacking away with that to keep light/wisdom/crusader/whatever else rather than three or more.

Ooh, missed that. Nice.

Duckman
13-10-2006, 05:12 PM
I also like how it refreshes all judgments on the target, so you only need one paladin wacking away with that to keep light/wisdom/crusader/whatever else rather than three or more.

/win



/ze Duck

Slashy
13-10-2006, 09:19 PM
you say they can do alot of dmg.. but then when you compare them to every other class in the game.. they are the lowest dps of all chars

Robinvi
13-10-2006, 09:54 PM
you say they can do alot of dmg.. but then when you compare them to every other class in the game.. they are the lowest dps of all chars

Exept they are not. And i can prove it.

Kimaro
13-10-2006, 11:56 PM
Exept they are. And i can prove it.

Fixed.

Duckman
14-10-2006, 12:04 AM
you say they can do alot of dmg.. but then when you compare them to every other class in the game.. they are the lowest dps of all chars

Depends on specc, gear and playstyle.
I know paladins can beat other classes in DPS. (No not every class, and no I dont say paladins should do DPS in raids.)



/ze Duck

Rhaego
14-10-2006, 12:07 AM
well the only thing i can say about it is zomg, but still i will be cheering when i get to see it in TBC, blizzard is legendary about trowing marketing bones

Robinvi
14-10-2006, 12:25 AM
A paladin will outdamage a priest or druid in a raid situation. At least a druid.

Tsarina
14-10-2006, 12:54 AM
A paladin will outdamage a priest or druid in a raid situation. At least a druid."A druid" as in one specific druid you once beat, or druids in general? And in what situation? Would a paladin specced and geared for DPS OD a druid that's also geared/specced for it? And how long can you keep it up?

I haven't raided with paladins in a very long time, but I'm guessing it's a bit like shammies. Nice damage, but un sustainable.

Firesoul
14-10-2006, 01:23 AM
you say they can do alot of dmg.. but then when you compare them to every other class in the game.. they are the lowest dps of all chars

They can do enough damage to make a difference, mate. Which is all that matters really. :)

I doubt we'll ever see Pallies as regular top dps-ers due to the nature of our class. It's not in our nature to be the best at healing, or the best at dps, or the best at tanking or whatever.

Robinvi
14-10-2006, 01:40 AM
A paladin will outdamage a priest or druid in a raid situation. At least a druid."A druid" as in one specific druid you once beat, or druids in general? And in what situation? Would a paladin specced and geared for DPS OD a druid that's also geared/specced for it? And how long can you keep it up?

I haven't raided with paladins in a very long time, but I'm guessing it's a bit like shammies.
Nice damage, but un sustainable.

Im talking about bouth classes specced for max raid dps.

Bold text: This is the key, we ARE. We are only fit to do dps in some fights. In other fights we get rather useless.

Also, im not claming paladins is a DPS class, far from it. I know my role in a raid, and i know it very well (i wouldn't be in a raiding guild if not, i think :P). All im saying is, paladin DPS isn't THAT bad. Peeps are actually mocking it to much for my taste.
[/b]

Duckman
14-10-2006, 02:02 AM
paladin DPS isn't THAT bad. Peeps are actually mocking it to much for my taste.

Indeed.. it's gotten a bit oversteer tbh. There are "a few" paladins that think that they are a DPS class, and therefor of people throw shit on paladins (especially the retri/somethingels speced ones) cause "they think they are a DPS class" Bullshit! Retri/holy specc makes it easier to grind/make money without being in need of a lvl.60 DPS-clas alt doing all the grinding and is good for both grinding AND healing.. most of the paladins understand that they arn't meant to be a DPS class, only that it's possible to do decent DPS.
That's a lill' thought from me atleast.. maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm write..
If I'm wrong - please let me know.. allways good to get a few tips before I start playing again.



/ze Duck

zanzanexpo
14-10-2006, 02:04 AM
Went to bed 2 hours ago but couldnt sleep so might aswell add something to this discussion.

Paladins can dps, they can do damage..i did some raids with 'dpsadins' and suprisingly he did very good, maintaned averege dps of 350 the entire time in aq20.

The thing is, paladins that heal on most occasons contribute far more then paladins that dps for the simple fact that they are not a dps class, and they will never reach the same level as other dps classes and a supported dps class in pvp is godlike, when i pvp with my warrior and i got bleetman :twisted: healing me, i just dont die..i keep killing till the horde go back to the spirit resser.
i dont think a paladin could ever do it, even with a healer backing the paladin because paladins will never reach the same dps level as a warrior, hunter, mage, warlock or rogue because they are hybrid class.
that is the same for feral druids, sure they do nice damage..but they're better off healing

What does impress me, is paladins that do everything instead of 1 aspect of their class, they are a hybrid class and their strength is doing everything..nothing sucks more then watching a paladin in cloth in pvp get raped and doesnt even bother to stun, or a paladin that just dps and pretend to be a warrior and doesnt heal even 1 time.

Fintan
14-10-2006, 05:23 AM
The reason Paladin DPS is ribbed so much is because there are *so* *so* many Paladins who haven't got a clue. I was helping someone through ST, and the level 56 warrior wanted to tank. I obviously agreed, as whirring through a level 51 instance with a level 60 fury warrior is appealing for obvious reasons :P. The tank equipped his imperial plate, whipped out his Overly-large sword of the artard and set about "tanking."

If more warriors were like this, people would rib warriors the same as they do Paladins, but if I'm being honest, the basic concept of being a Paladin is harder than the basic concept of being a warrior. If you were to make a warriors guide for idiots, the jist of the instance work would be: Make sure the guys with the big sticks are hitting you, and not the idiot 2k hp mage with full damage gear, even if it is fun to watch them die in horrible ways. I think the basic concept of hybrid classes is more complicated than that, which would explain why so many Paladins come across as incompetent comparitively.

Obviously at high-end gaming there is no basic concept, and everyone has a fairly complex job to do at some point, but by then you've seperated the good players and the bad ones. But you don't help yourselves at all, and I'm not sure about everyone, but I know I speak for a lot of people when I say:

IF YOU TAKE THE BESERKER BUFF AHEAD OF THE HOMOSEXUAL FIRE MAGES AND OTHER DPS CLASSES, WE WILL MOCK YOU. WE WILL MOCK YOU TILL YOUR EARS BLEED AND YOUR BRAIN TURNS TO SLUSH.

Seriously it's fucking annoying.

Zananex 4259 unbuffed hp? O.o Kudos to you Bleetman!

Rhaego
14-10-2006, 10:37 AM
They can do enough damage to make a difference, mate. Which is all that matters really.

basicly this is the line that ends the discusion for me realy, couldnt say it better myself

Bleetman
14-10-2006, 07:34 PM
What does impress me, is paladins that do everything instead of 1 aspect of their class, they are a hybrid class and their strength is doing everything..
That I think is something specific to pvp when it comes to hybrid classes. It's the reason the newer pvp gear is so good.

Firesoul
14-10-2006, 11:38 PM
I love you, Bleetman.

Kenny
31-10-2006, 08:01 AM
And btw, Taur, how come Shamans are allowed to have imba dps, but not us? :o

Or how about priests?

Druids? Lol ok nevermind the druid part.

Firesoul
31-10-2006, 11:06 AM
And btw, Taur, how come Shamans are allowed to have imba dps, but not us? :o

Or how about priests?

Druids? Lol ok nevermind the druid part.

We have imba healing tho!

Rhaego
31-10-2006, 02:20 PM
heard thy nerfed DS to 30 min cd in beta /teases Firesoul :razz:

Lonan
31-10-2006, 07:33 PM
no but there is a talent rhaego that gives u 1 minute less cool down on ds and 100% more damage speed

Lonan
31-10-2006, 07:33 PM
weapon speed i mean >.<

Firesoul
31-10-2006, 11:13 PM
heard thy nerfed DS to 30 min cd in beta /teases Firesoul :razz:

*shouts at Blizz* Bring it on!!!

:P

Meri
01-11-2006, 12:31 AM
that is the same for feral druids, sure they do nice damage..but they're better off healing


My newly discovered love of druids is offended by this. Feral druids can tank and dps just as well as warriors and rogues, sometimes even better, the only thing limiting Feral is itemization, which completely stops for feral around MC/ZG level. TBC gives Feral a talent that somewhat compensates for the lack of +def, and a Feral druid dealing damage, with nurturing instinct can come out of feral to cast some pretty heavy hots and a healing touch.
I've seen in few servers that druids are expected to do xyz thing (heal! go get the flag! etc.), and when they dont want to fit into that neat category people get upset, luckily my guildies accept the fact that I will never be the healer on a run with my druid. (I have a priest for that anyways :P ) Hell TBC with all its manaregen talents for druids might even make Oomkin not so OOM anymore. :P

Kinshara
01-11-2006, 12:51 AM
Feral druids can tank and dps just as well as warriors and rogues

Parry, block. *cough* You've got more health and armor perhaps, but... you'll still take more damage and require more healing.

Rogues, well... given the new combat tree talents they'll be very hard to match. (Plus they have more ways of reducing threat).

I'm not saying that feral druids should never tank/dps (hell, I tank with mine quite often), but you aren't going to beat properly specced/geared warriors and rogues in their specialised areas, ever. Hopefully you won't need to though, and the design of instances will give plenty of chances for hybrids to be hybrids.

Meri
01-11-2006, 01:56 AM
but you aren't going to beat properly specced/geared warriors and rogues in their specialised areas, ever.

I think theres evidence to show you wrong. Already now, a Bear tanks better than a warrior at least up to until few exceptionally hard critting mele bosses in 5 char instances. A cat druid has managed to top damagemeters at least up to MC. So what its all about is just itemization. Give leather with comparable stats (stam, def) to high end plate, and a Bear will tank just fine. A bit different yes, taking more damage spikes, but also having a more comfortable buffer of hp for the healers, plus generally taking less damage per hit because of higher armour. Catform dps is hurt somewhat because of the stupid decision to make lot of high end mobs immune to bleeds.

As for new rogue talents, well, yeah fun for the combat daggers dummies to sacrifice the last remnants of the utility and survivability to crank out 1 more percent of damage. While the Feral druid will be dishing almost as good damage without being a total drain on healers.

Yeah tons of people look at damage meters and only check damage done, where as a far better measure of worth is damage done divided by damage/healing taken minus healing done.

But nevermind that, the point is people (to nit pickers, I am using this in passive) have preconceptions that are often just gross generalisations. All priests and pallies must be holy, all druids and shammies resto, hunters never use pets except while soloing, oh and never trap, never use fear in instances, warriors must be full prot, etc. etc. etc. Oh and DONT TALK TO THE STUDENTS! (classics, same shit with raidcontent)

soulshift
01-11-2006, 02:03 AM
that is the same for feral druids, sure they do nice damage..but they're better off healing

I can heal, do dps and run a flag at the same time.
Zan, you should know better now after doing wsg and AB with me.
I solo'd BWL geared players in blues and in large fights with farm huggers, I killed their clothies and used instant heals on our healers while rooting rogues off them.
After rooting them, I go back to kitty and kill them.
You're just sticking a class in a box, while if you play your class well you can do a shitload of things which are more valuable than just dps and just healing.
Try a druid or paladin yourself once and then make comments.
Just ask Elvaling how I heal him as soon as he iceblocks and then go on killing.

but you aren't going to beat properly specced/geared warriors and rogues in their specialised areas, ever.

That's kind of the job of a hybrid...
Specialists can only do one thing but if I'm "playing" rogue and our healer dies, I can shift to caster and heal a bit with HoT's and HT if needed.
Heck, I can even innervate myself and gain like 1500 mana in my gear.
Or when the healer dies I shift to caster, pop NS and instant rebirth the healer.
It depends alot on the situation tbh.

Edit: I agree with Meri.
The gear in instances for hybrid or full feral bear/cat is mostly lacking.
They made up for this with hybrid gear in AQ but still not the best.

Kabhanda
01-11-2006, 02:40 AM
Lets take this to the simplist (kek) level.

If two items of the same quality and iLevel are itemised so as to give a rogue and a feral druid the best dps stats they can, then the rogue will be (slightly) better off.

The same with bear gear and a warrior, the warrior gains more (slightly) real mitigation.

Now the point, Is a bear better for a 'standard' boss tank job? Hell no.
Will a cat out dps a same geared same skilled rouge? Hell no.

If a bear is OTing a mob can it then heal / cleanse / innervate once its dead? yes, can a warrior? no.
If a cat is dpsing away and a healer dies / needs innerv can it heal/res them/innerv? yes, can a rouge? no.

Trying to out do a class with one aim using a hybrid is retarded, getting near to the other guy and STILL using hybrid abilities is very useful.

As a final note, resto druid who stand there and die when getting aggro rather than going bear to be healable or stun their attacker are just as bad as feralol retards who refuse to ever heal.

Hybrids are good becuase even when specced for one task they can do others too, to never do the others is what makes so many hybrids bad in this game.

Meri
01-11-2006, 02:55 AM
Lets take this to the simplist (kek) level.

If two items of the same quality and iLevel are itemised so as to give a rogue and a feral druid the best dps stats they can, then the rogue will be (slightly) better off.


Are you sure? I'm not very proficient in how itemlevels are calculated, but if its just raw stats, then the Cat will come better out with 20str 20 stam piece than the rogue with 20 agi 20 stam piece. The druid gets 24str=48ap and 200 health in catform, while the rogue gets 20 ap and 200 health and abput 0,8 crit. Or what about same agi/sam item for both. Equal ap, but cat gets slighty more crit. With items with all 3 stats the cat comes out even better, gaining more ap, more crit, and for bear occasions, more stam.

Ofcource hybrids should use all their abilities, but there's a difference between being mainly feral tank/damage, with occasional heal compared to resto who mostly just heals and only goes to bear/cat on occasion. (I prefer to be mainly feral, with emergency heals, thats what makes nurturing instinct so very very attractive when combined with light investment into resto.)

Druid however of all hybrids seems to me to be the one that actually could MT high end raidcontent given proper itemization, and same for damage role. Which leads to the question whether druids are too powerful if only thing limiting them is itemization?

Ps. Like hunter with TSA, a feral with LotP contributes a nice chunk of extra damage (some number cruncher could check if its better to have one feral with LotP grouped with 4 seal fate rogues instead of 5 seal fate rogues in same group) that isn't attributed to the hunter/druid.

Alverion
01-11-2006, 03:04 AM
Druids are slightly worse off because despite the fact that they are getting more AP for their gearw orth, they are still stuck using a 1.0 speed "weapon" which generates massive negative effect on their instant attacks when they go through normalisation.

That affects their ability to compete on the same level as rogues fundamentally.

Their ability to tank is also fundamentally not on the same level as a warrior because they immediately lose out on 2 forms of damage mitigation which is a large factor when dealing with mobs that hit in the region of 1500+ per swing and more on instants. They can generate more aggro by default though which is a big plus and their raw reduction through armor and sheer number of hitpoints does go someway to compensate but it still gets knocked further and further away from the warrior ideal due to lack of mitigation techniques.

As an example quite a few guilds use druids as OTs on Patchwerk to absorb Hateful Strikes, fairly useful since they are more likely to have the armor and hp available to just suck it up, but you'll still find an equal number or greater number of guilds utilising warriors in the position because of either the healing factor or that their warriors are better suited to it.

Druids can come close, in some cases, pretty damn close. But thats about it. Gear is the main inhibitor but there are built in factors that make them unable to compete on the same level and at the same time maintain some semblance of class balance by emphasing that a good druid utilises as much of their class as possible to suit their goal or their raids goals and needs.

Myriima
01-11-2006, 03:33 AM
As long as Druids don´t get talents on par with the ones rouges get, like SnD, let alone the fact that their main weapon gets ouclassed at some point, they will never be as good at dealing damage. Just as the lack of talents and skills will always make em second class tanks. Why try be a gimp tank / rouge, instead, try to be an awesome druid

Meri
01-11-2006, 04:08 AM
Another note on Feral viability in TBC. Having Omen of clarity (under a new name) and Natures Swiftness both in resto, along with all the melee/feral talents (often combined melee/resto talent) Sooo, Cat deals damage, pretty damn nice, amd with cat attacks Omen of clarity procs like crazy. Notice someone needing a heal, cower, out of form, instant free of mana healing touch at what? +3-400 from str alone.
Dunno what my point is anymore, except that I want to see Feral/resto more widely accepted instead of forcing druids to go Heavy Resto; and also that Druids are dangerously good at 3 roles, maybe even 4 with TBC, compared to the powerlevel of other hybrids, most of which are less flexible to boot. (ie. I'm terrified of a nerf. :P)

Kinshara
01-11-2006, 08:30 AM
Main point is, that if feral druids were equally as capable as prot specced/geared warriors for tanking, and combat specced rogues for dps, there would be zero reason to take those classes instead of more druids.

While I can see a druid tank being better at absorbing a huge damage spike from a boss with magic-based attacks (where armor and mitigation skills don't matter so much, but a larger health pool does), the rest of the time they will be worse at mitigation. (Shield Block + parry, in addition to dodge that druids have as well... warriors can easily reach 100% of attacks being mitigated by more than just armor value alone)

Rogues having poisons to enhance dps(and now to reduce threat further), along with the new combat talents, will still be ahead in the dps stakes. There's nothing else they can do. (Oh, and SnD > druid finishers for amount of damage done)

Druids(like other hybrids) fit in in the middle; you aren't the best at any one job, but you can be pretty damn good at it, while providing other abilities as needed. You work out better at a single job than other hybrids, because you give up your other abilities when doing a particular job.

(This is all from the what-will-be 25 man raid perspective; warriors will still be the MT for nearly all bosses, but hybrids(paladins + druids, in this case) can OT as needed. Rogues will be the best at single target dps, but a feral druid, enchancement shaman, or ret pally can do a decent amount, while augmenting that of the rogue and being ready to spot heal if necessary. For 5 and 10 mans, though, I don't see why anyone should refuse a hybrid tank/dpser)

Thrane
01-11-2006, 11:38 AM
Another note on Feral viability in TBC.

In TBC a druid tank won't come close to a prot specced tank anymore. Well.. you will in migitation of course. But from warrior tester's reports on the test realm Devastate is such a rediculous amount of threat that feral druids don't get close anymore.

Also.. you claimed earlier to have druid OTs on patchwerk earlier. This has a couple of flaws though. To begin with.. you'll need to be very druid heavy because you'll still need druid healers as well. And second... there's some things on patchy that a warrior will avoid way better.
We've had a near wipe before when there was a healer issue (dno what) and the three OT's stayed on low hp for a bit with me (OT3 at about 5k being hte highest) I parried 3 incoming HS's and one HS missed. Then the others were back at proper health and got targetted instead. A druid would've died.

Kabhanda
01-11-2006, 11:58 AM
A druid would've been more likely to die.

Fixed :P

Meri
01-11-2006, 04:06 PM
Another note on Feral viability in TBC.


Also.. you claimed earlier to have druid OTs on patchwerk earlier.

That was Alverion. You won't see me stating much anything about Naxx since I have almost zero experience with it. (got raid burnout at AQ)

Thrane
01-11-2006, 05:25 PM
Another note on Feral viability in TBC.


Also.. you claimed earlier to have druid OTs on patchwerk earlier.

That was Alverion. You won't see me stating much anything about Naxx since I have almost zero experience with it. (got raid burnout at AQ)

Oh.. well. meh :P

That being said though.. I don't mind druids tanking at all.

Kinshara
01-11-2006, 05:45 PM
That being said though.. I don't mind druids tanking at all.

Noone should, but there will still be a few who try to shove them into a healing-only role. My main hope for the expansion would be for raid dungeons that require people to switch roles within a single encounter, and make it necessary and *obvious* that different specs are useful/necessary to complete a given dungeon.

(This applies to more than just druids of course, including the class that this thread was originally about :) )

Firesoul
01-11-2006, 11:13 PM
At present, hybrid roles aren't fulfilling the best of their capabilities due to a) gear, and b) talents/spells.

Some of you need to understand one thing. HYBRIDS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO BE BETTER THAN A SPECIALIST CLASS AT THEIR ROLE. if a druid is outtanking a warrior it means one of two things (or both). Either that specialist class (e.g. a warrior) isn't performing up to scratch, or/and the hybrid class is excelling at theirs. Which is fair enough.

Thrane, having had the pleasure of playing with you on many occasions, there's no doubt that you know your class as well as anybody in the game, and I highly doubt I will come across a druid or Pally that will outtank you in situations if you both went all out on tanking capabilities (gear and talent trees included).

It's a simple fact. A good prot warrior is best at tanking. Simple. Because of talents/abilities/gear. If I was in a basic instance such as MC, and saw a druid regularly outtanking a prot warrior, I wouldn't be congratulating the druid. I'd be like "what the flying &%^£" to the warrior. "Get your act together" etc etc.

One of the biggest mistakes people make - and I've said this before - is assuming, or making out that Pallies/druids are best at healing, or better at tanking, or best at dps etc than a given specialist class. This is NOt the case and NEVER will be. We are hybrid classes designed to fulfil a role of a specialist class when needed. Not to perfection, but adequately enough to allow a raid event to continue or a party to complete an instance.

When I initially realised that I could heal well enough to keep a 5 man group alive in an instance, I did it (and went crazy on healing in large instances) just to prove a point that Pallies were "better" healers than priests or druids.
Over time I realised this is complete crap, and we simply outdo most healers because of the superb speed and capability of our flash heal. That's it. But that's all we have when it comes to healing. For large fast heals, we suck and for mass healing - we are non-existent.

reading some of the above messages about how "druids outtank warrors in a given situation" etc etc are complete bull. Pardon my directness as it's not meant to be offensive, but I really believe it is a pile of... well, dung. Hybrid classes are not designed to be the best at anything, so get used to it.

One other quick thing I've observed. People have been raving about "Pally dps" and "Pally tanking" and "druid hybrid capabilities" in the expansion and how great it will be. Have any of these ravers even looked at the new talent trees for the other classes?

Firesoul
01-11-2006, 11:35 PM
My newly discovered love of druids is offended by this. Feral druids can tank and dps just as well as warriors and rogues

Here's an example of what is simply not true if both were compared as Khlysti mentioned.

Temmink
01-11-2006, 11:37 PM
Main point is, that if feral druids were equally as capable as prot specced/geared warriors for tanking, and combat specced rogues for dps, there would be zero reason to take those classes instead of more druids.



Why? raids take mages locks hunters and rogues (and warriors too) for dps. Why isn't there a single dominant dps class? Everyone knows rogues kick everyone's ass yet mages locks and hunters are still wanted.

The problem is simple: warriors should stop being such whiny little bitches. Fact is, we're hyrids too and as such should deal less damage than real damage classes, similar perhaps to *gasp* pallies and druids. And since there isn't a pure tank class, druids, pallies and warriors can all be equally good at it for all i care.

People forget wow is casual and very forgiving. you don't need x of y class, you need roughly x of z role. As such, if druids/pallies/wariors tank the same or druids do slightly less dps than rogues it doesn't mean raids only consist of druids and paladins, it means raid groups can be a shitload more diverse, meaning a lot more people can play a class they enjoy.

Besides, with the 25 raids getting into a guild shouldn't be too hard.

Meri
02-11-2006, 12:05 AM
I have a TBC beta account. Haven't explored much yet, but saw a vendor purchasable recipies for a 3 part leather set made for tanking. Oodles of Stam, TONS of defense, socketed, dodge bonus from sockets. With that kind of itemization Bears can become more viable, though I haven't seen enough to know what kind of advances warrior tanking gets.

My dear Temm, rogues are crap dps class cause they're melee, and usually take quite a bit of damage. Mages are nice, until they run out of mana, get resisted, get aggro. Soooo, well, I told you long time ago a "perfect" raid would be half full of hunters. :P

Firesoul
02-11-2006, 01:29 AM
Why isn't there a single dominant dps class? Everyone knows rogues kick everyone's ass yet mages locks and hunters are still wanted.



Exactly how one-dimensional do you want it? Having rogues as pure dps would make for some of the most boring instance runs ever. Plus I'd like to see a rogue soul stone or sheep etc.

And tbh mate, I've known quite a few hunters that are absolutely outstanding at raid dps. Your argument is pants, quite frankly.

Ashborn
02-11-2006, 01:35 AM
Is not. Straight up raid dps on a stationary tanked target rogues beat everything by a fair margin. Only *very* well geared fury warriors have a chance of keeping up. This is fact.

Lothereon
02-11-2006, 02:01 AM
Is not. Straight up raid dps on a stationary tanked target rogues beat everything by a fair margin. Only *very* well geared fury warriors have a chance of keeping up. This is fact.

Guessing the problem is that very few fights fall here.

Firesoul
02-11-2006, 02:28 AM
Is not. Straight up raid dps on a stationary tanked target rogues beat everything by a fair margin. Only *very* well geared fury warriors have a chance of keeping up. This is fact.

That's just one scenario. In multiple mob situations it's totally different. Plus, the impression I got from what he said was kinda "what's the point of any other class? let's just have pure rogues for dps". Which isn't right as not every fight is the same. Despite some statements (namely from Chonar with that lovely CoI raid dps animation :p) of "Just chuck rogues at em till they die".

Tsarina
02-11-2006, 02:38 AM
That's just one scenario.
It's most boss fights, though. Which is what matters most.


Is not. Straight up raid dps on a stationary tanked target rogues beat everything by a fair margin. Only *very* well looking fury warriors have a chance of keeping up. This is fact.Fixed,btw.

Firesoul
02-11-2006, 09:56 AM
That's just one scenario.
It's most boss fights, though. Which is what matters most.


Getting to these bosses is just as important too I'd say. There's not much point in being overloaded with rogues if you can't even get to the boss you want to try out. And with most trash mobs I've come across, it's been AoE strikes that have taken them out.

Anyway, you're right tho about boss fights and rogues. But again, it's just one aspect of a raid to me. *shrug*

Ashborn
02-11-2006, 10:26 AM
You're wrong again. All trash mobs are trivial. What matters is all the bossfights with multiple targets, kiting, heavy movement, aoe, cc etc. added into the mix.

Temmink
02-11-2006, 10:36 AM
Is not. Straight up raid dps on a stationary tanked target rogues beat everything by a fair margin. Only *very* well geared fury warriors have a chance of keeping up. This is fact.

That's just one scenario. In multiple mob situations it's totally different. Plus, the impression I got from what he said was kinda "what's the point of any other class? let's just have pure rogues for dps". Which isn't right as not every fight is the same. Despite some statements (namely from Chonar with that lovely CoI raid dps animation :p) of "Just chuck rogues at em till they die".

That wasn't my point at all. My point was despite rogues being the best 1 vs 1 dps class when it comes to sheer damage output, raidgroups still want mages, locks and hunters. And lots of them too. Which is why i don't believe if pallies and druids are able to tank as well as warriors that warriors are suddenly unwanted and not invited to raids anymore.

Kinshara
02-11-2006, 11:08 AM
Main point is, that if feral druids were equally as capable as prot specced/geared warriors for tanking, and combat specced rogues for dps, there would be zero reason to take those classes instead of more druids.

Why? raids take mages locks hunters and rogues (and warriors too) for dps. Why isn't there a single dominant dps class? Everyone knows rogues kick everyone's ass yet mages locks and hunters are still wanted.

As others have said, rogues are best at damage when the target is stationary and has a good tank. If said target does aoe damage, rogues are somewhat less desirable since they require healing. Warriors come close atm, but the changes to rage generation in TBC may change this a bit.

Why do people want mages/hunters/locks then? Because not all fights are stationary, and because they deal damage differently. Being ranged classes, all 3 can avoid close range aoe that warriors and rogues cannot. A hunter is great in fights where aggro is important, because they can feign death(oh... and the bandaid that is tranq shot); a mage is the king of aoe, which is often important. And locks can a: keep dots going on multiple mobs at once, b: use CoS/CoE/CoR to increase other players' damage, in addition to dealing a fair amount on their own. (Plus, they do aoe-tanking duty at times with hellfire)


I'm not saying that druids and paladins shouldn't be close to warriors in tanking ability, and that there won't be certain fights where using a druid or pally will be better than a warrior (given certain blizzard statements, this seems a certainty.) But I'm saying that warriors still have an edge as main tank for most mobs. Most of the time, this difference won't matter. But for a few bosses it will.

Firesoul
02-11-2006, 08:16 PM
What matters is all the bossfights with multiple targets, kiting, heavy movement, aoe, cc etc. added into the mix.

Erm, I'm kinda confused now. That's what I've been trying to say?

Firesoul
02-11-2006, 08:22 PM
Is not. Straight up raid dps on a stationary tanked target rogues beat everything by a fair margin. Only *very* well geared fury warriors have a chance of keeping up. This is fact.

That's just one scenario. In multiple mob situations it's totally different. Plus, the impression I got from what he said was kinda "what's the point of any other class? let's just have pure rogues for dps". Which isn't right as not every fight is the same. Despite some statements (namely from Chonar with that lovely CoI raid dps animation :p) of "Just chuck rogues at em till they die".

That wasn't my point at all. My point was despite rogues being the best 1 vs 1 dps class when it comes to sheer damage output, raidgroups still want mages, locks and hunters. And lots of them too. Which is why i don't believe if pallies and druids are able to tank as well as warriors that warriors are suddenly unwanted and not invited to raids anymore.

*scratches head*

*shuts up*

Arthran
04-11-2006, 01:49 AM
Wow, what started as a "Wewt Crusader strike" Almost became a Class flame war.

So My 2cents as Both a Raid Leader and a Healadin.

Yes atm Pala's are chucked into the Healing role 90% of the time in raids, and with good reason. as Firesoul said, a well geared pala can out heal vertually anything that moves, but then again as he said, our healing is swift and in small doses, we cant do swift big heals, group heals or HoT's. One of the main reasons were given this role atm, is that the other 2 "Hybrid" Roles we have, were useless at, the current ret tree is a joke and unless your lucky enough to have collected ALOT of nice gear, your dps as a pala is pants (and yes i do know some amazing ret pala's, but talking about the standard paladin in a raid with standard tier 0.5/1 gear, were useless). And Tanking as a paladin at the moment? Dont get me started, Sure i can both Main heal and Main tank in strat UD, But i couldnt tank in a raid at the moment, i could probably pull a boss, tank him for 5seconds before the first mage fires a shot and whooosh there goes my agro.

The thing im really looking forward to is all the changes in TBC, in TBC pala's can effectivelly pull off all 3 roles, were getting 25man instances for a reason, they have already said due to mechanics changes and more stamina that healing is going to be less whack-a-mole and more constructive. Chances are Pala's will be able to play with their new taunts and OT, plus do some semi good dps with some of the new talents (reconing is now insane for steady dps as long as you are getting attacked).

All Im trying to say is that at the moment Hybrids are good, but not 100% thought out by blizz, TBC looks like Hybrids are getting the Skills and itemisation they need to be Propperly good at all of their roles, instead of being labled and healbots all the time

Just my 2cents

Temmink
04-11-2006, 12:13 PM
Is not. Straight up raid dps on a stationary tanked target rogues beat everything by a fair margin. Only *very* well geared fury warriors have a chance of keeping up. This is fact.

That's just one scenario. In multiple mob situations it's totally different. Plus, the impression I got from what he said was kinda "what's the point of any other class? let's just have pure rogues for dps". Which isn't right as not every fight is the same. Despite some statements (namely from Chonar with that lovely CoI raid dps animation :p) of "Just chuck rogues at em till they die".

That wasn't my point at all. My point was despite rogues being the best 1 vs 1 dps class when it comes to sheer damage output, raidgroups still want mages, locks and hunters. And lots of them too. Which is why i don't believe if pallies and druids are able to tank as well as warriors that warriors are suddenly unwanted and not invited to raids anymore.

*scratches head*

*shuts up*

Let's just say i'd love it if you guys would be able to tank as easy as warriors.

Bleetman
04-11-2006, 05:52 PM
Well, I'd speculate that for relatively short durations, paladins can tank fairly efficiently.

The problem is that warriors can in theory keep generating aggro forever, due to the way rage works. 'Course, their gear would collapse at some point, but anyway. Paladins can only really generate threat until they run out of mana, which at the minute kind of limits their use.

Hence why the "gain mana when healed by someone else" skill is going to rock so hard ;-)

Arthran
05-11-2006, 06:09 AM
agreed, you get 2 pala's flashing each other and we can tank forever

Arthran
05-11-2006, 06:10 AM
ok, on reading that again, i think it needs to be re-worded...

Kathra
05-11-2006, 12:42 PM
ok, on reading that again, i think it needs to be re-worded...

i think so too ;P