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Genie
05-07-2006, 06:31 AM
Can anyone tell me if there is a maximum +healing amount before it is pointless adding anymore?

Allannen
05-07-2006, 06:53 AM
more +healing will always up your healing, there is no ceiling.

Though after a certain amount I'd go more for mana/5 and other such stats to keep a good regen.

Now I only got an alt priest so I'm not sure what would be a good number to have before going for lasting power but it also depends on the length of the fight, how much time you can spend regenning between heals etc etc.

Generally, 5 man instances then int is best with +healing second and regen last.
20 man instances its a bit more even and in 40 man I'd go for regen over both +healing and int.

tin
05-07-2006, 07:11 AM
There is no cap for +healing, more is always better!

But +healing applies differently to different healing spells. General rules are:

- spells with a (base) cast time of more than 3,5 secs receive full bonus from +healing
- spells with a (base) cast time of less than 3,5 secs receive a percentage of the bonus (ranging from 35% - 99% iirc)
- HoT spells receive the full bonus, but split over all the ticks for that particular HoT spell

correct me if I'm wrong (but I aint, am I?) ;)

-Tin

Allannen
05-07-2006, 07:29 AM
- spells with a (base) cast time of more than 3,5 secs receive full bonus from +healing
- spells with a (base) cast time of less than 3,5 secs receive a percentage of the bonus (ranging from 35% - 99% iirc)


To see how much a spell benefits (without having to use a calculator) you can download an addon called theorycraft from curse-gaming. You can configure it to show your spell crit %, % benefit from healing/dmg on a spell etc. This shows in the tooltip.

pegastud
05-07-2006, 09:55 AM
Though after a certain amount I'd go more for mana/5 and other such stats to keep a good regen.
.


As a priest shouldnt you be aiming at spirit instead of mana/5 ?

Faylin
05-07-2006, 10:00 AM
If you have 3 pieces of Transcendence, yes I think you should :)

Also.. I don't really agree with not investing more in +healing at a certain point... if you get shitloads of +heal, all you have to do is scale down your spells a (few) rank(s) if you want to conserve mana.

The good thing about +heal is that it is flexible: you can make your normal heals really big, thus increasing your healing / second, OR cast lower ranks , thus increasing your healing / mana.

Kabhanda
05-07-2006, 01:08 PM
mp5 is basically better than spirit due to the amount it costs in the item budgets blizzard use. However as with everything a sensible balance of stats is what you really want.

I am currently at about 880 + healing, and I still want moar! moar! moar!

sara
05-07-2006, 07:38 PM
I'll take the opposite line to Khlysti.

I think +heal is fairly useless unless you can minimise your over-heal rate (+heal is for either boosting your healing per second and your healing per mana, both are wasted if you routinely over-heal)

MP5 is good for flash heal spamming, spirit is good for a slightly more refined approach: Which is better for you will depend almost entirely on your cast-style, (which also depends on the fight).

I normally only spend about 40% of my time (or less) inside the 5s rule (under which spirit is gimped) which makes my high spirit build really good, but it means that things are a bit harder for me in fights like Lucifron where I spend the entire time casting dispel, and so spend a much larger percentage of my time in the 5s rule.

Just a different view :)

Mojah
05-07-2006, 07:47 PM
For the original question: no, there's no limit to the amount of +heal, it'll always be usefull (however, if your lowest heal ranks start healing for 1000+ (impossible, I know), you'll have an amazing amount of overheal)

As for the question of spirit/mp5:
That depends entirely on your play style. If you can find the time to stop casting for a few seconds, a high-spirit build will be more profitable than a high mp5-build. Using tier2 3-piece bonus + meditation also gives back a healthy amount during casting.

I personally aim for +heal and spirit, I'll take any mp5 that comes on an item I get, but I won't make it my priority. I enjoy getting 130 mana back per tick when not casting too much to gimp that.

Genie
06-07-2006, 12:38 AM
Thanks for your replies has been helpful and given me something to think about :D

Kabhanda
06-07-2006, 01:01 AM
sara, in MC +heal might not matter, in naxx there are fights you *have* to pull 1200hps+ or tanks die, it really does matter there (thats 1200 for one priest btw).

You get efficiency with massive downranking (heal 2 for 1200 average) and in all honesty overheal is only a waste if you go oom. There are many fights where you really have to keep a tank at 100% or they die.

I suppose it really depends where you are though, for MC and below int is probably the thing to go for (short fights, little time to go oom), bwl spirit (lots of spikes = lots of chance to regen when spikes are present). And then aq40 brings in much longer fights where mp5 shines alot. Naxx goes the step further with some plain stupid fights (for incoming damage) where you need decent mp5/spirit to keep your mana up, yet really need alot of +heal to do enough healing fast enough.

However at all levels you do want a good balance of all stats still, ignoring +heal just seems silly to me.

Limbo
06-07-2006, 08:37 AM
However at all levels you do want a good balance of all stats still, ignoring +heal just seems silly to me.

QFT

Harr
06-07-2006, 08:56 AM
This depends a bit where you spend your talents as well. If you go for disciple build then you'll need more +healing to make up the on the lack of heal effectiveness (Spiritual Healing & Spiritual Guidance on holy, where spirit stands for more heal effictiviness too instead of mp/5).

I pull 1200-1300 (1.9k+ crits) on top rank flash heals with 30 holy and 21 disciple build. When I had PI that was considerable lower but had almost 1k more mana. Thats with around +500 healing (hmm.. or it was more like 400-450 when I had PI).

This is with my MC/Onyxia/ZG (top) gear. (As for clarification I didn't include ZHC on those figures)

In my opinion disciple build is more suited for dispelling and holy for healing. (Magic dps loves PIe :P )

sara
06-07-2006, 12:14 PM
Ah, yes, sorry, I was forgetting that as a holy priest I had a natural source of +heal, my flash heals do ~1100-1300, and I only have 338 +heal from gear.

Incoming maths alert! The faint of heart should look away now!

My gheal rank 5 currently works out as ~1050hps (baseline, high end heals are 1110hps and crits are just silly but we'll take the low end just to be safe from bad luck) to take that to 1200hps I only need 1200-1050 = 150 more hps.

150 * 2.5 = required extra healing per spell = 375
375 * 3.5 / 3 = required extra +heal = 437.5

So I'd need 438 extra +heal.

Hmm interesting. Ofc my renew is ticking for 300 (reducing the needed hps by a bit less than 100, due to the global cooldown interruption on your gheal casting), and full tier 2 would give me the extra rank 5 renew as well (it's not much but it's something :P) Also there are trinkets like Hazza'rah's Charm of Healing (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51980) which can increase your burst healing by quite a lot for short periods, it'll all depend on how long you need to keep up the healing for (I'm assuming that you don't need, as a single priest, to keep up a constant 1200hps for 5 minutes :)).

I may very well need to change my gear later and start using my benediction (or one of the AQ quest reward weapons with an off-hand) for these very high hps fights in Naxxramas, but for the moment I've not seen a fight where lack of raw healing power was a barrier to progress.

Anyway I'm not saying that I avoid +heal gear altogether, just that (at the moment) my aim is for full tier 2 and as much spirit as I can cram on my gangly frame :)

Edit: The maths was as much for my benefit as anyone else, I was curious

letspray
30-08-2006, 05:08 AM
I currently has +800 healing as well as 105 bonus healing from Spirtual Guidance , but still want moar Moar MOAR (what Khlysti said:)

Khlysti has some leet gears tho , T3 with C'thun loot >< which I can't match , geez gief now

The beauty with +healing priests is you can always burst healing an insane amount when needed ( ever tried to get a Greater Heal crits for 6200 ? with power infusion ) , which is essential for fights like Patchweck , 7/8 K dmg on tanks is no kidding . AND you also conserve loads of mana by using lower rank spells .

My GH Rank 5 heals for 3010 average where yours might heal 2500 , you have to cast 6x2500 to match my 5x3000 healing done , so technically I saved 710 mana (or 650ish with talent) already , don't mention that I also saved time 'cause I don't cast the extra 2.5 sec spell . And renew ticks for 420 now xD too .

For normal fights I can just spam Heal rank 1 or rank 2 , heals for 1030 and 1350 hp at the cost of 134 and 171 mana , crit for 1500 and 2k . With 50 combat regen plus the BoW they cost like nothing and I can do it forever . If my mana actually got drained I'll just pop a pot and hey I'm full again . Who cares about overhealing and 5 sec rules when your heals are so cheap ? I know the boss will die before I ever run out .

And when was the last time you ever run completely OOM in a fight ? Nevah . In the extreme cases you have Brilliant Mana Oil + Nightfin + Mageblood that's about 10-12 mana per tick , and you drink one mana pot at start another one when CD is done , get Innervate to full + Dreamless Sleep Pot under 10 seconds . You see what I'm saying ? You are basically free from ever go OOM .

That being said , you can see those mana left over after a fight = wasted mana . Wasted mana isnt for those that did Overhealing , it's for those that never get to be used at all .

So to sum up , +healing gears pwns when healing , have the best burst heals , last longest while still output the most , never goes OOM , what can you complain ? :)

+Spirit gears are great , I used to be there too , 500 spirit pwns no doubt . But sometimes it's good to move on .

Sikki
30-08-2006, 05:56 AM
Who cares about overhealing and 5 sec rules when your heals are so cheap ?

Ever heard of aggro? :P

Faylin
30-08-2006, 06:55 AM
Overhealing doesn't aggro

letspray
30-08-2006, 07:09 AM
Who cares about overhealing and 5 sec rules when your heals are so cheap ?

Ever heard of aggro? :P

Ever played a healer ?

I'm sorry Sikki I'm just very tired of explaining stuff to people that have no clue about . But for your benefit , just remember this :

Overhealing a person is the same as doing damage to a dead mob . NO AGGRO !

Thorbadin
30-08-2006, 10:45 AM
The beauty with +healing priests is you can always burst healing an insane amount when needed ( ever tried to get a Greater Heal crits for 6200 ? with power infusion ) , which is essential for fights like Patchweck , 7/8 K dmg on tanks is no kidding . AND you also conserve loads of mana by using lower rank spells .

Thats quite useless on patchwerk

And due to the crash my witty comment that real men use flash heal is the gone !

syranndyr
31-08-2006, 01:51 AM
Perhaps most importantly of all is that itemisation tends to favour +healing and mana/5. Effectively this "breaks" the priest class in that downranking becomes rediculously more mana efficient than stats, in effect allowing for alot of situations where a priest cannot go out of mana, with some of the more obvious exceptions to this rule such as patchwerk where the dev's have take this broken healing into mind when leeching away at the raids mana.

Overhealing. Slower cast spells make this so easy to gain large amounts on, as does PoH and Holy Nova. It's not "efficient" to overheal but its unavoidable.

More ideal base mana range is 6k+ unbuffed (assuming meditation - no trans - around 300 spirit 40mana/5). If you're spamming heal1 or more likely heal2 then by the time you're even around 3k mana your mana/5 has far outweighed the "mana awarded" value of int or spirit.

Crit is semi-worthless, meaning you could never rely on crit heals as part of a stable build but you could try to orient the crit for keeping up inspiration on an MT.

Spirit as a "focused" stat is a really shitty path in my view quite simply because it relies on you being outside the 5 second rule meaning its only at its best when you're not healing, whereas mana/5 is maxxing itself during the times where you're in combat healing away. Obviously not all fights are intensive but a stat that revolves around not healing in order to be able to heal has a major downside.. you can make the most of the spirit you're given on equipment with trans + meditation, which make the mechanic a little less problematic. Switching to Will of Arlokk is'nt such a terrible thing to take to if you enchant if with spirit for some regen, both in or out of combat.

letspray
31-08-2006, 02:02 AM
Liked your post Syran .

Just for curiosity , what exactly is the right approach in the Patchweck fight ? Spam low ranks non-stop ?

Kabhanda
31-08-2006, 10:10 AM
Just for curiosity , what exactly is the right approach in the Patchweck fight ? Spam low ranks non-stop ?


Depends on who you are healing and what OTing strat you are running.

(just look at the math, 7-8k damage every 1.2 sec, target assigned by current health of the 3 available. Its not hard to see you CAN know who is going to be hit, (or atleast targetted and attempted to be hit). Heal accordingly.

syranndyr
02-09-2006, 12:51 PM
Like Khlysti said its dependent on who's healing who, if you're OT or MT healing the rank you're using is going to be largely different, however in general low ranks wont work since its most probably the most heal intensive fight ingame. (low rank heal wont work, gheal however you may be likely to get away with using rank 2-3 though it largely depends on your gear and role in the fight).

Jonneh
02-09-2006, 02:08 PM
(I'm assuming that you don't need, as a single priest, to keep up a constant 1200hps for 5 minutes :)).


On Patchwerk you need to keep around that kind of healing for 7 minutes :(

Maesto
07-09-2006, 11:22 AM
On our recent Patch kill I used g.heal rank 1 on the MT all the time (popping rank 5 when inner focus was up).

EDIT: I'm running with +938 healing unbuffed (higher buffed due to SG, can't remember it right now) and 42 MP5.

@Letspray

There are various ways to heal on Patch. I know that CoI does it differently than us, so it's just a matter of figuring out, what will work for your own group.

Kabhanda
07-09-2006, 12:25 PM
On a very simplisitic level, for patchwerk every healer should be casting the highest rank they can maintain for the whole fight.

If you are spaming a target then just work out your total fight mana (ie mana + regen + pots n stuff) divide by 2.5 (for priests) (or more depending on your latency) and thats the mana cost of each heal you want to use.

If you are reactively healing then you need to know the number of times your target will be hit (fairly easy to work out, even easier to just run a practise run then count). You need to cast that many times in the fight, divide total fight mana by that number and woopy do you have the mana cost of the heal you should be using.

You are by far better off having a higher overheal rate than you are having mana spare at the end, I also never include demonic/dark runes in my total mana calc, meaning those can be used if mana pots all end up giving very low returns.

In theory this is the approach you should use for selecting heal level in all fights, ofc only including consumables in the total mana calc that are needed (anyone using any consumables on an00b / razu needs shooting :P) obviously you may need to change rank depending on mid fight events, but ending any fight with mana is basically a waste.

Now, ofc I do end most fights with a decent amount of mana becuase I am far too lazy to bother working out fight length - mana total - then heal rank that just ooms me. But for patchwerk atleast its a good way to know what to do, and always remember overhealing is only bad (assuming you are healing the right target) if it means you oom too early.