Log in

View Full Version : i had a play around with warrior talents


Age
06-04-2006, 12:05 PM
see the thread on the official forums here: http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?ForumName=wow-warrior-en&ThreadID=150420

Chonar
06-04-2006, 02:12 PM
Not bad at all!
Though... fist weapon spec in the Arms tree? That *deep* in the arms tree? o_O

Age
06-04-2006, 09:42 PM
you can get it and still reach the bottom of fury =p

Ogg
07-04-2006, 12:47 PM
I like your changes to the protection warrior improvements, a tier 6 +15% hp talent is something I've had in mind since 1.8 :)
Although the spell damage reduction is a bit much, since that, added with 15% hp, really is overpowered.

Thundgard
07-04-2006, 01:34 PM
Not bad at all!
Though... fist weapon spec in the Arms tree? That *deep* in the arms tree? o_O

really dont wanna know where you put your fists ...

Crash
07-04-2006, 01:58 PM
This is very good. It's a lot better than most of the insanely overpowered custom talent trees warriors come up with.

I think the main problem with your trees at the moment is that there are too many talents. You should consider merging some of them, such as Improved Rend with Bloodletting (I would actually ditch the damage increase completely in favour of the increased duration) and maybe Accuracy with DW Spec. Also get rid of useless talents like Improved Disarm and Improved Thunderclap.

On the subject of DW Spec, I think it's a slightly underrated skill. When I'm dual wielding, at least 60% of my overall damage comes from normal white melee attacks, meaning 20% of my overall damage comes from my offhand weapon. A 5% increase to that means a 1% increase in total damage output, which puts it on par with 2H Spec in the Arms tree. It's certainly not the greatest Fury talent ever, so I would quite like to see if become a 3 point talent with each point boosting offhand damage by 3-4% and chance to hit by 1%, but only while dual wielding.

Weapon handling is a nice idea but I'm not too sure exactly how useful it would be to most players. It would almost require people to use weapon switch macros to be effective, which I doubt Blizzard would think of as being a realistic requirement for a talent. I would prefer a talent with more general utility, maybe something along the lines of a talent that increases the rage you get when taking damage by 5/10/15/20/25%.

Fist Spec is interesting but I'm not a big fan of weapon specs in general. "Hey you just upgraded from a 50dps polearm to a 52dps axe? 50 GOLD PLEASE!" I would like to see polearm spec merged with axe spec and replaced with a better tier 6 talent, or maybe have polearm spec produce an effect like the Bonereaver's Edge proc.

I don't like the idea of a 2-talent Enrage. Sorry. It seems very clumsy to me; kinda like an attempt to stop warriors getting nerfed again because MS warriors do a lot of damage with Enrage. Just accept it being a 25% bonus and move on to other talents.

Fleetfooted looks good. I definitely think that Fury warriors need some kind of anti-kite talent, but perhaps not one like a nerfed version of a Hunter talent. A root breaker or sprint ability would be nice but too similar to the gnome racial and rogue abilities. Although it sounds pretty wacky, perhaps a talent that increases your movement speed by 30% for a couple of seconds whenever you get a crit?

As for the Protection tree, I agree that some kind of magic resistance or absorption talent is needed, but I would go about it a different way. I've always thought it would be, you know, kinda neat if there was something like "Shield Focus", which would be a 10-second duration skill with a 1-minute cooldown, allowing you to absorb 50% of all incoming magic damage but only generate 50% rage from any damage you take (so you would actually get 25% of the rage you would get from a magic attack while unshielded). If there is ever a talent that simply increases resistance, then it needs to be variable rather than a fixed value, i.e. increases your resistance by 20/40/60/80/100% of your level value.

Protection also REALLY needs some kind of "protect" talent. Basically, you pick a friendly target, activate Protect, and then as long as you're within 10 yards of them and have your shield equipped, you will take 30-50% of the damage dealt to them instead. I would like to have this as a 21-point talent and do something else with Concussion Blow.

Now for some other random observations. In its current state, Shield Spec sucks. Even with the rage bonus, it's vastly inferior to Deflection in the friggin' Arms tree. Actually, Deflection is better than Toughness and Anticipation as well. Buff Antitipation to 3 or 4 def per point, please. I would like to see the rage-gain component of Shield Spec replaced with, say, something that increases your block value by 10% of your level per talent.

I really think that the Fury tree needs some kind of talent to boost attack power. Feral Druids get TWO for Christ's sake. I would prefer something that gives a flat increase to AP so that it gives more of a boost to poorly specced warriors than to ones fully geared out in shiny BWL/AQ40 epics. I'm not keen on copying talents from other classes, but Predatory Strikes is exactly what I want here.

But, yeah, very interesting work, keep it up.

Age
07-04-2006, 02:06 PM
i've put an updated version up, though i did it before i saw that monster post of yours crash, so none of it is taken on board

Ashborn
07-04-2006, 02:07 PM
Protection also REALLY needs some kind of "protect" talent. Basically, you pick a friendly target, activate Protect, and then as long as you're within 10 yards of them and have your shield equipped, you will take 30-50% of the damage dealt to them instead. I would like to have this as a 21-point talent and do something else with Concussion Blow.
Soul link for main tanks!

Crash
07-04-2006, 02:11 PM
Soul link for main tanks!
Precisely.

Shead
07-04-2006, 03:29 PM
hmm can't see em for some reason but everyone seems to love em so I guess they are very good =)

Utena
09-04-2006, 08:20 PM
Some actual fist weapons to go along with fist specialisation would be quite nice...

Age
09-04-2006, 11:04 PM
Some actual fist weapons to go along with fist specialisation would be quite nice...that's almost as unlikely as those talent trees actually ending up in the game =p

Thrane
10-04-2006, 01:59 AM
Some actual fist weapons to go along with fist specialisation would be quite nice...http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19365

Anyway... liked it a lot. And pretty much think the same about it as Crash does. There's on silly talent I thought up during todays raid but it'd be a bit odd to put it in perhaps..... the opposite of defiance in fury. So 15% less (or another number) generated in Battle and Zerker stance.... but well.... that'd be a bit odd for those who want to pvp with the build :)

Chonar
10-04-2006, 10:15 AM
STOP PULLING AGGROES FFS

Age
10-04-2006, 01:04 PM
I think the main problem with your trees at the moment is that there are too many talents.this is something i admitted from the offset and the second version did reduce the number slightly

You should consider merging some of them, such as Improved Rend with Bloodletting (I would actually ditch the damage increase completely in favour of the increased duration) and maybe Accuracy with DW Spec. Also get rid of useless talents like Improved Disarm and Improved Thunderclap.merging too many talents is something to avoid because it reduces the amount of choice you have and makes some of the choices too "easy" if you will (for example, dw spec isn't something everyone has to take when dual wielding atm - but add a +hit bonus to it and reduce the number of points it costs to 3 as you suggest and suddenly it's an absolute must have for dw builds because it's too powerful for what it costs)

Weapon handling is a nice idea but I'm not too sure exactly how useful it would be to most players. It would almost require people to use weapon switch macros to be effective, which I doubt Blizzard would think of as being a realistic requirement for a talent. I would prefer a talent with more general utility, maybe something along the lines of a talent that increases the rage you get when taking damage by 5/10/15/20/25%.it's not something that would be useful to everyone, but that's kind of the point - tactical mastery is something that you just have to have or the class is gimped (imo and i know i'm not alone) so replacing it with something just as essential would defeat the purpose of taking it out - also, in referrence to your earlier point about removing imp tc, with tactical mastery gone (and imp tc improved a little) it no longer looks like such a waste of points

Fist Spec is interesting but I'm not a big fan of weapon specs in general. "Hey you just upgraded from a 50dps polearm to a 52dps axe? 50 GOLD PLEASE!" I would like to see polearm spec merged with axe spec and replaced with a better tier 6 talent, or maybe have polearm spec produce an effect like the Bonereaver's Edge proc.a lot of people argue against weapon specs and it's true that they don't work for us quite as well as they do for rogues (rogues have the fact that some abilities require a dagger to consider) but i think the problem is more down to the passage of time than anything else - when the tree was designed everyone was using the reaper or one of a few other weapons so they could just pick 1 spec and be happy, now everyone is raiding and has a much larger pool of uber weapons to pick from so they may not stay with one weapon for long

i've got an idea on how to fix this and i'll make a version 3 to try and work it in

I don't like the idea of a 2-talent Enrage. Sorry. It seems very clumsy to me; kinda like an attempt to stop warriors getting nerfed again because MS warriors do a lot of damage with Enrage. Just accept it being a 25% bonus and move on to other talents.never =p

imo a 40% enrage isn't imbalanced for a fury warrior but moving the whole talent down a tier and denying ms warriors a 25% enrage isn't the solution either - so yes, you may consider it "clumsy" but i think the opposite tbh

Fleetfooted looks good. I definitely think that Fury warriors need some kind of anti-kite talent, but perhaps not one like a nerfed version of a Hunter talent.funny story, i added it as 15% then thought "nah, too much" and made it 10% - then i was looking at the hunter tree to check out their +stam talent and noticed they had 15% + to hit and put it back =p

A root breaker or sprint ability would be nice but too similar to the gnome racial and rogue abilities. Although it sounds pretty wacky, perhaps a talent that increases your movement speed by 30% for a couple of seconds whenever you get a crit?er? what conceivable use is that? either your opponent is kiting you and you can't reach them to crit, or you can hit them already and a speed boost isn't needed (and if you're chasing them when you crit, would actually be a hinderance when you suddenly overshoot)

As for the Protection tree, I agree that some kind of magic resistance or absorption talent is needed, but I would go about it a different way. I've always thought it would be, you know, kinda neat if there was something like "Shield Focus", which would be a 10-second duration skill with a 1-minute cooldown, allowing you to absorb 50% of all incoming magic damage but only generate 50% rage from any damage you take (so you would actually get 25% of the rage you would get from a magic attack while unshielded).that's a bit too gimmicky imo - in pvp casters would just cc you when they saw you use it and in pve it would make magic damage too "lumpy" compared to a passive reduction

If there is ever a talent that simply increases resistance, then it needs to be variable rather than a fixed value, i.e. increases your resistance by 20/40/60/80/100% of your level value.this is a very good idea and i'll put it into v3

Protection also REALLY needs some kind of "protect" talent. Basically, you pick a friendly target, activate Protect, and then as long as you're within 10 yards of them and have your shield equipped, you will take 30-50% of the damage dealt to them instead. I would like to have this as a 21-point talent and do something else with Concussion Blow.never going to happen - in pve you have aggro to handle this and in pvp you're not meant to have a magic way to protect your healer (also, it's going to suck massively when someone starts aoeing and you're taking 150% damage from it)

Now for some other random observations. In its current state, Shield Spec sucks. Even with the rage bonus, it's vastly inferior to Deflection in the friggin' Arms tree.Actually, Deflection is better than Toughness and Anticipation as well. Buff Antitipation to 3 or 4 def per point, please. I would like to see the rage-gain component of Shield Spec replaced with, say, something that increases your block value by 10% of your level per talent.yes, anticipation is better than all of those talents because it's a flat 5% reduction in melee damage compared to the others, but then there's nothing stopping you taking deflection *and* one or more of the others

I really think that the Fury tree needs some kind of talent to boost attack power. Feral Druids get TWO for Christ's sake.i'm missing something here - all i can see feral druids getting is predatory strikes

I would prefer something that gives a flat increase to AP so that it gives more of a boost to poorly specced warriors than to ones fully geared out in shiny BWL/AQ40 epics. I'm not keen on copying talents from other classes, but Predatory Strikes is exactly what I want here.well we've got imp battle shout - doesn't give as much ap as predatory strikes, but i do believe we have more strength than druids to begin with

But, yeah, very interesting work, keep it up.thanks, i intend to =]

Age
10-04-2006, 02:27 PM
third version is up at http://www.lipteeth.demon.co.uk/warriortalents/version%203/ with a reworking of weapon specs in arms (dunno if i'm happy with it but it's an idea)

Crash
10-04-2006, 03:41 PM
merging too many talents is something to avoid because it reduces the amount of choice you have and makes some of the choices too "easy" if you will (for example, dw spec isn't something everyone has to take when dual wielding atm - but add a +hit bonus to it and reduce the number of points it costs to 3 as you suggest and suddenly it's an absolute must have for dw builds because it's too powerful for what it costs)

The only one I would definately suggest merging is Improved Rend and Bloodletting, and that's more of a replacement than a merging. As I'm sure you're aware, practically no one takes Improved Rend for the extra damage.

it's not something that would be useful to everyone, but that's kind of the point - tactical mastery is something that you just have to have or the class is gimped (imo and i know i'm not alone) so replacing it with something just as essential would defeat the purpose of taking it out - also, in referrence to your earlier point about removing imp tc, with tactical mastery gone (and imp tc improved a little) it no longer looks like such a waste of points

Weapon Handling is a very niche talent though. Plus, it would probably be of most benefit to DW Fury warriors who want to switch weapons for Overpower or Slam. I don't claim that an improved rage gain talent is the best replacement for TM, but I would still prefer something with fairly broad appeal (such as Improved Heroic Strike and Deflection on Tier 1).

imo a 40% enrage isn't imbalanced for a fury warrior but moving the whole talent down a tier and denying ms warriors a 25% enrage isn't the solution either - so yes, you may consider it "clumsy" but i think the opposite tbh

Well, Fury is more geared towards PvE DPS than Arms is, yet Enrage hardly helps at all in PvE. I would rather be given the option of keeping Enrage at 25% and putting points into a talent that increases AP or something.

er? what conceivable use is that? either your opponent is kiting you and you can't reach them to crit, or you can hit them already and a speed boost isn't needed (and if you're chasing them when you crit, would actually be a hinderance when you suddenly overshoot)

Specifically, a speed increase would help vs Wing Clip and Crippling Poison, but also against any snare that has the same movement reduction as Hamstring. If I'm trying to attack a snared opponent who has also snared me, I find that I have to sit directly on top of them in order to achieve my normal attack rate. If I follow behind them at what seems to be normal melee range, I often see that my attacks fail due to being "out of range". Plus, I like to dance around people like some kind of retarded ballerina.

One of the main frustrations I encounter when I engage in my (admittedly limited) PvP with my bizarro Fury/Prot build is that I lack the ability to really unload some heavy DPS on a target after soaking up damage while being rooted. When I was cookie cuttered it far easier, as I was able to hit Mortal Strike and Whirlwind as soon as I got in rage for some big numbers. I would like an ability to guarantee that I'll be in range for a few seconds after breaking free of a root, rather than being rooted instantly again after managing to fire off, say, 700 damage.

I considered suggesting an 2nd stage of Improved Intercept that allows you to break free from roots, but I think it would be far too overpowered given Intercept's short cooldown.

that's a bit too gimmicky imo - in pvp casters would just cc you when they saw you use it and in pve it would make magic damage too "lumpy" compared to a passive reduction

That's why you would time it so that it's activated just before they finish casting Fireball + PoM Pyroblast or Soulfire or whatever, without giving them a chance to react. In PvE tanking it could function like an "Oh Shit" ability, possibly saving you from fiery death at the hands (claws?) of a meano dragon.

never going to happen - in pve you have aggro to handle this and in pvp you're not meant to have a magic way to protect your healer (also, it's going to suck massively when someone starts aoeing and you're taking 150% damage from it)

Well, at the moment, stunlocking rogues do a better job of protecting healers from melee attacks than protection specced warriors. This doesn't seem right to me. Protection spec is complete crap in PvP right now and it really needs something beyond Concussion Blow that allows protection warriors to perform a role in PvP and perform it well. Remember that one more person staying behind to protect the clothies is one less person moving forwards to attack, so it's not like a free lunch.

yes, anticipation is better than all of those talents because it's a flat 5% reduction in melee damage compared to the others, but then there's nothing stopping you taking deflection *and* one or more of the others

...which is the main problem with protection. People put points into it not because the talents are actually on par with talents in other trees, but because it's better than not spending them at all. If you've got 5 points in deflection then putting your next 5 into anticipation will obviously increase your damage mitigation more than putting the points into cruelty, but cruelity is still far better in all other regards. Why not just improve the protection talents so that people put points into them because it's worthwhile to do so, rather than just doing it by default?


i'm missing something here - all i can see feral druids getting is predatory strikes
...
well we've got imp battle shout - doesn't give as much ap as predatory strikes, but i do believe we have more strength than druids to begin with

5/5 Heart of the Wild increases your strength by 20% while in cat form (and before you ask, cat druids get 2 AP from 1 STR just like warriors). Anyway, when soloing, 5/5 Battle Shout increases your AP by roughly 25. 5/5 Predatory Strikes increases your AP by 90. In order for Improved Battle Shout to provide the same overall boost as Predatory, you would need to be in a group with 3 other melee DPS classes and keep it up on them all the time. How often does this happen?

Also, I have a level 60 druid who is now resto/feral specced but was fully feral specced from levels 1 to 59. In general, I found it much easier to increase my AP with my druid than with my warrior.


I typed this out before I looked at version 3 of your talents. I'll take a look at them in a sec.